Gun Improvements

[nbk2000]

Many times people seek to substitute a gadget for training, in hopes of improvement.

This is not one of those cases.

This is strictly intended to aid a person in finding their gun in the dark under stress or in case they drop it.

In a dream of mine, I machined a small recessed slot in the polymer grip of a Glock.

In this was placed a TRASER self-luminous beta light. This is a glass capsule filled with tritium gas that emits beta radiation that excites the phospor coating that lines the inside of the tube.

The slot is sealed with clear plexiglass resin to keep out dirt and provide a smooth surface.

In dimmed lighting you can see how brightly the TRASER might glow.

<CENTER> http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glow-Grip_Animated.gif </CENTER>

This could be a liability, except for the fact that it's covered by the palm when held.

Phosphorescent plastic or an LED could be substituted with equal success.

An ideal place for placing the light would be in the backstrap of the grip. This would allow the light to be seen regardless of which side the gun lays on.

This can be used with probably any gun.

Anyone else have such dreams? http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-04-2001).]

[mrloud]

How much Beta radiation is the palm of your hand absorbing while holding this thing? It'd be a good idea to conduct a few experiments with a dosimeter and a Geiger counter.

[nbk2000]

Beta radiation doesn't penetrate glass, thus there is NO radiation hazard.

Really, do you think they'd sell something that's so radiactive it'd glow in the dark?

:P

And I'm still waiting for the question.

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[HMTD Factory]

It'll work, but it'll cost a small fortune for the special-size tritium gas tube cuz ordinary Trijicon sights(3 small tritium globules) cost 50$ more than plain gunsights.

If there's a paint material that works like tritium globules (self-illuminates for 12 years) it'll be neat, plus it won't break.

I'll try to indicate the direction of muzzle
or outline of the grip so I won't shoot into myself (If I was to pick up the gun in the dark thinking the gun is pointing to the right...I might put my thumb right into the
trigger guard and disengage the safety, then
it's trigger hurt.)

That's not a real glock you nicked, right?

[mrloud]

The radiation itself doesn't cause it to glow in the dark. It makes the phosphor glow in the dark.

And: yes *they* sell wristwatches and glow in the dark stickers that send a Geiger counter crazy.

In the old days, human beings used to paint the glow in the dark marks on watches. Now they are mostly all dead.

[This message has been edited by mrloud (edited 12-01-2001).]

[nbk2000]

It's not MY Glock. ;)

Anyways, it's part of a new idea I'm testing out for getting free guns. You can get just about any you want. Glock, AR-15, Colt .45, whatever.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glow-Grip.html

Of course, this requires that your site looks professional with an actual .com URL. It's all about perceptions and image.

I just want to see if I can get any orders. If I get none, then the idea was shit.

BUT, if I get dozens or hundreds......:p Straight to the PDF it goes. I'd e-mail all the "customers" with some lame excuse like running out of the TRASER tubes due to a freeze in the nuclear weapons dismantling program.

mrloud:
The radiation itself doesn't cause it to glow in the dark. It makes the phosphor glow in the dark.

Isn't that what I said?

This is a glass capsule filled with tritium gas that emits beta radiation that excites the phospor coating that lines the inside of the tube.

And you're referring to radium paint. That hasn't been used since the second world war. But it would be neat to have that. It never wears out.

Now maybe *THEY* sell plutonium powered watches. ;)

HMTD, look carefully at the pictures and you tell me if it's a real Glock. How many air-soft guns have a Serial # plate under the barrel or Glock logo on the bottom of the magazine?

The <a href="http://www.interiors-etc.com/technical.htm#what">TRASER</a> is on the left side for left handed shooters. Right handed shooters get it in the right hand side.

And I'm STILL waiting for the question.

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-01-2001).]

[Anthony]

The airsoft glock I have has part of the lead weight showing just like the serial No. plate above.

Is *the* question: Did you just draw that green line on in photoshop?:)

Would your "customers" be posting their guns to an untraceable PO box?

[AR-15 Man]

Only problem I could see if that you did take your hand off the gun and your enemies had NVG you would be SCREWED!!! Apparently (one reason I don't have night sights on all my combat weapon) is that night sights show up big time on NV. And why not just use a lanyard on your gun. It makes retension a lot easier. But do see some merit with this. But like HMTD factory said it is easily copied.

[PYRO500]

After looking at those photos carefully I can say they look kinda suspicious, if I did not know what I know about photo editing I would probably think they could be real, but I know that that glow effect looks really suspicious and the green line next to the black line (looks like an indentation) apears a bit off, you are looking at the gunbut the indentation outline appears at the bottom, not the top.

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visit my web page at:
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/]

[EventHorizon]

I HAVE one of those watches. Wondered why my wrist always itches when I wear it. ;P Its a Luminox and the packageing 'says' no radiation leaves the case. I must have misplaced my geiger counter...NBK, I'll send you my watch to test, and a nice brand new H&K for some grip modification, when you think I'll get it back.

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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[nbk2000]

Anthony asked the right question.

The TRASER IS a photoshop creation.

But the gun is real. I took the picture off a gun auction site.

I think I did go overboard with the glowing "halo" effect. But I've seen it done on other websites too so I don't think it likely that Billy Bob and Bubba Smith is going to analyze the photographs too closely.

Besides, what do you want for 20 minutes work, a Picasso? :)

And the "customers" would be sending their pieces via regular mail to a mailbox on a post in front of a vacant building.

But now that I've got actual pictures of TRASER capsules from the website, the next version will be dead on photorealistic.

You'll also notice that NOWHERE did I claim it to be real. I said "dream" and "might glow". I've never used the term "dream" to describe anything I've done in fact.

And I actually DID dream about this, so I whipped up the picture for it.

I would think an easy way to gain much credibility for this would be to send an air-soft gun with the modification to a gun magazine for them to do a review on it. If they mention it in an article, you've got instant credibility and should have the pieces flooding in.

And the neat thing is that this could be a legit business, making money. And also.....heh heh....have a constant supply of fresh guns that, after "use", would be getting sent back to their owners, thus "disposing" of the evidence.

I did send the TRASER people a slightly different picture of the above "glow grip" with the request for a price quote. Be interesting to see how much it will cost.

Who knows, might actually have a legit business going soon.

I was also thinking about imbeding the TRASER in a clear plastic or silicon rubber "bump" that would be adhesively attached to a guns grip. This would eliminate the need to have the guns sent in. :(

Not that I would deny myself the opprotunity to play with other peoples guns. :)

EventHorizion, send me your piece and I'll

BTW, it is true about the tritium sights being beacons to NVG. But did you know that they make IR only TRASERS? Thus, if you had NVG yourself and (most people don't) they didn't, you could still use the idea. Or use them as "bugs" to follow a person through the dark, or mark safe lanes, or whatever.

I also prefer lanyards, but sometimes the cord gets in the way.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[AR-15 Man]

I do like your idea and will probably be trying it. I feel some mission critcal gear should be marked in this fashion (ex. GPS, lensatic compass, first aid kit, radios stuff that goes in my pouchs). For home defense and other non-military uses this thing would do fine. You are right about lanyards. They sometimes get caught on crap. But then again I don't use my handgun expect in several different cases like really close quarter, my rifle jams, or I need a New York reload.

[nbk2000]

That means you'd be wanting to use these:

http://www.interiors-etc.com/images/products/982870357.jpg

They're on the TRASER website linked above.

They're as cheap as $3 each in quantity. Only thing is they won't ship them to the US or Canada because of product liability laws.

Which means I'll be having to have one of the UK mods order some for me. :)

Perhaps we could pool our orders?

I've also added a "products" page to the Glow-Grip site. ;)

Access through the above link.

Did I forget to mention that not ONLY would you be getting free guns, but also getting paid for them as well? :)

Would $110 dollars be too much for installing the "product"? I figure since the trijicon sights add another $50 to the cost of a gun sight and are tiny compared to the Glow-Grip, that the customer would be getting quite the bargain. :P

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[HMTD Factory]

Well, I still think it should indicate the
muzzle direction(many ways) somehow.

Because if it is on one side, when it falls
to the ground it may not show the side that
is glowing.

[nbk2000]

Since it doesn't actually exist, it doesn't matter which way "it" points or what side it's on.

But you'll also notice how I already mentioned installing it in the backstrap of the gun so it would show regardless of side. The backstrap is that part of the gun that fits between your thumb and palm.

And if a person can't tell the direction their gun is pointing by the way it fits in their hand, they have no business holding it in the first place.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[HMTD Factory]

Well too bad, thought my medium sized brain can shit on your idea. Not that I said "Nah,
it's an already patented idea" or "Nah, a friend that I met in my shooting club has a better product and it's a seller" or something like that.

"Is $110 for installation adequate?"
If Regis Philbin ask you this question, it's
one less friend to call.

[nbk2000]

And what does THAT mean?

~_^
~

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[CragHack]

This sounds like a good idea to begin with but i have some reservations. Picture this, you have the gun placed in its holster under your coat. you start to run, or the wind blows a little your coat opens up a bit. the light is now easily noticable ESPECIALLY at night. Now as a scam to obtain handguns, very good. as a practical idea. very bad.

Also, putting it in a hip holster would now be out of the question. At night you could be spotted from very far away.

If you were to modify your holster to hide the light, the mod would more than likely get in the way when you tried to draw your weapon. and if you stuck something to the gun to hide the light, thinking you will take it off when you draw the gun. Well now you are wasting precious time.

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"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited 12-02-2001).]

[HMTD Factory]

Oh, I said that cuz I don't think you are
being polite, NBK. But if you didn't mean it
then fine.

$110US is way too much to ask. For $110US
one can get a Timney trigger, installation
and tuning, a weaver scope base and scope
rings.

Can't find the gun in the dark is a problem.
So far the only solution out there is
illuminated handgun storage box, and flash-
lights mounted on the gun. The box doesn't
light up the gun after the gun left it;
flashlights need to be turned on first, plus
the size and battery. So a self-illuminated
gun do provide a slight edge for home defence
. The light doesn't nescessarily be on the
grip or be large tho, it can be small enough for you to tell and blocked by hands when you
hold it.

[nbk2000]

If this actually existed, then the customer would be the one to decide if it was suitable for his application.

I'm assuming that a cop wouldn't use it, but that a home-owner, who keeps his on his night stand or such, would.

Also, they do make IR only TRASERS. These could be installed in a cops gun to allow recovery if dropped at night since very few "bad guys" use NVG.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glock_Glow%20Handle_Side.jpg

This shows the backstrap placement, as well as the side placement. Either one is covered by the hand.

Holstered guns would depend on the orientation. Underarm would expose the backstrap to the front, but not the side. Hip holster exposes side, but not backstrap.

And there's no reason why it couldn't be built to have some sort of shutter that opens when the gun isn't in a holster. More involved, but a clever person :) could come up with something.

And $110 is probably too cheap! Like I said, tiny TRASERS in gunsights adds $50.

Now add in a large TRASER, machining, labor, plus free return shipping.

If I charged $20 bucks, it'd sound too good to be true, now wouldn't it? Or it'd sound like a piece o' shit job, not "quality" workmanship.

Cost = exclusive = desirable! :p

And the TRASER is larger than I'd actually use for dramatic effect.

I think, when I next get into town, that I'll buy a couple of those small glowsticks used for fishing lures, and mount them in an air pistol grip to illustrate the concept. Complete with video. :)

Also, I was being VERY polite about people who can't tell which end of the gun is which. If I wasn't, you'd have known it. I'm not the shy, retiring type. HAHA!

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[DaRkDwArF]

quick suggestion...
why not offer the $50 night sights as well... it will increase sales and make you look more legitimate

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Do or Do Not, there is no Try

[nbk2000]

The reason for not offering the luminous sights too is because everyone and his bitch is also selling them.

I'm the "exclusive" source for Glow-Grips, so why sullie myself with the common stuff? ;)

And I've worked on a more realistic looking version of the pictures.

Picture 1:
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/.40-S%26W-with-Glow-Grip.jpg

Picture 2:
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/.40-S%26W-with-Glow-Grip2.jpg

Which do you think more realistic?

AND

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/.40-S%26W-with-Glow-Grip_Dark.jpg

The glow on this is taking straight from the TRASER glowrings shown above.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-03-2001).]

[mongo blongo]

I think the first looks best.
Im no expert on this but when it's in the dark it looks brighter than on the first two.
It should also have some kind of glare surrounding it (in the dark).
Very good though!
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AAARRRRRHHH! My beautiful eyes! It burns!
The goggles do nothing!AAARRRRRHHH!

[This message has been edited by mongo blongo (edited 12-03-2001).]

[CragHack]

will you be offering the mod for all manner of handgun or just for the glock series? I think it would be to your benefit to have a multitude of handgun styles. (unless of course you are itching to get ahold of a glock and nothing else will do...)

Make more pictures with different types of popular handguns. I believe this will help legitimize your "business" because it looks like you have the ability to work on all types of guns not just the glock.

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"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

[AR-15 Man]

I like the idea of having it show up on NVG. If say you are a raiding a place then your guys would show up big time so that would cut down on friendly fire. But yes that could be turned around and you show out like a sore thumb to others with NVG. How about an LED that cuts off when the pressure is on the grip or in the holster? Yea that requries batteries but still it solves the holstering problem. And the device is limited use anyway. And just for the heck of it lets say the inside of th holster has some lumisant paint so it can be on your bedside. Example Joe Smuck hears a sound. He sees the inside of the pistol holster glowing. He grabs the pisol belt and buckles it. He pulls out the pistol. Oops Joe stumbles and drops the pistol. Guess what LED's kick in and he sees the gun. Now that is better than exposing himself by turning all the lights on depending on several factors of his home.

[DaRkDwArF]

If you offer the product to a multitude of different handguns then that gives you a chance to figure out how they perform and also how they are to service, etc...

Perhaps a review of this peice in the NBK2000 pdf showing the use and performance of the grips could be an idea? Show the use of the pistol on a bedside table, in various holsters and so forth, this could prove a meaningfull use to those who still can't quite come to grips with the principal of the product

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Do or Do Not, there is no Try

[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited 12-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited 12-03-2001).]

[nbk2000]

I thought it might also help to have some pictures by satisfied "customers" to make it look more believable. ;)

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glow-Grip_Customer.jpg

I could say that I can install in any grip with a polymer grip. This would cover a lot of guns like Glock, Sig-Saur, FN, Berreta, etc.

DaRkDwArF, that's true about getting to test-drive the various guns. IF I was doing this as a legit business than that would definitely be a big benefit. Saves on reading magazine reviews, touring gun shops, buying something that might be a POS.

Plus that means plenty of range time wear and tear on other peoples equipment. :) Don't have to be as careful with it, but don't want to break it either. It'd be inconvinient to have to buy a replacement part because I broke someone elses gun.

Naturally, if I'm getting dozens of free guns, then I could care less about wear and tear! Shoot it till it falls apart then pull out another one.

Use it for a job, throw it away! No temptation to keep it when you have a surplus of them, right? :) Pass them around and your gang might be the best armed on the block with tricked-out custom guns.

After all, the people who send their guns out to have Glow-Grips installed are also the same people who send them out to other customizers for expensive trigger jobs and such.

No reason why there can't be a small pressure switch built into the grip somewhere that would keep the light off in the holster or hand, but lit when not in one.

Perhaps it could be magnetic so a small magnet is attached to the holster, and when held it's covered by the hand, otherwise it's exposed to allow recovery in the dark.

I'll make a video using the chemlights, that'll make it "proof-positive" that the product is "real". :) And it'll quite nicely illustrate the product concept to everyone.

I still haven't heard back from the TRASER folks yet.

PS: I've replaced the photos in the first post with updated ones.

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[mrloud]

If you turn this into a legit business, all you firearm purchases can be claimed as tax deductions. (At least they could in Oz.) After all, you need to experiment on different types of guns right?

Why stop with guns? You could put a Traser in any sort of thing that can be used and therefore lost in the dark. Maglites, dildos, domestic door locks, light switches, TV remotes, mobile phones, car ignitions, door bell backlights. Just a few that come to mind.

[nbk2000]

The whole reason for the scam is that, as an ex-con, I can't buy a gun at the store. Thus I either have to make them, steal them, or trade for them.

The TRASER people already have flashlights with the capsules in them. As for the dildo.... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

I also thought of the lamp switch knob, but the cost would probably prevent it from being popular since the TRASERS cost a couple dollars each in 10,000+ lots. A lot more than the 20 cent replacement you find at Home Depot.

And there's still the problems of importation. These things are regulated in the US since they ARE radioactive. I'm still waiting to hear from the TRASER people about what the importation regulations are in regards to this.

What I'd like to do would be to make my money off of the cops. Oh, the delicious irony of the cops paying a felon. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Handcuff keys, pepperspray, batons, radios, pens, all kinds of cop things could do with a light.

Anyways, this topic wasn't originally intended to be all about TRASERS.

Does anyone have any other ideas about things that could be done to improve a gun?

Or someother ways of obtaining a gun (scam/theft/robbery/whatever). And DON'T say "kill a cop" or "join the military" either.

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[Anthony]

Desert Eagle .50cal firing bottlenecked rounds to .22 solid titanium (maybe cobalt or DU tipped) slugs through a smooth bore barrel at 5000fps...http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Half seriously: I've heard that a good muzzle brake and spring recoil absorbs can reduce the recoil of a 50bmg to that of a 12guage shotgun. Of course the rifle weighing 30pounds probably helps a lot but there might just be a place for a 50bmg handgun for someone with very strong wrists.

For those who couldn't tell which way they were holding a gun in the dark; a glow in the dark arrow pointing in the direction of the muzzle.

A bit high tech, but have a transponder in a ring which the gun won't fire without being in close proximity to (in your hand). Stops you being shot with your own gun but flat batteries or other failure would leave you stranded.

Something I noticed watching Womb Raider was the belt attatchment that held clips. The heel of the clip would slot into a groove. The clip would hang horizontally from the back of your belt point outwards. So presuming your gun actually fully ejects the spent clip, you run it onto the clip behind you, pull it upwards to release the heel from the plate, cock and carry on firing. You could have several clips in a row. The assembly would have to be fairly rigid to stop it just flexing as the clip is inserted.

[CyclonitePyro]

Around here there are always yardsales and "flea markets", where people always have some guns for sale, usually hunting rifles and shotguns, but sometimes you get lucky. They could care less about having the guns registered. And as yard sales, ask the people if they have any guns for sale, or that they would like to get rid of.

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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

[nbk2000]

I finally got a reply from TRASER.

=============================================

Dear *******

Thank you for this enquiry.

I have forwarded your enquiry onto the factory in Switzerland for their
comments and they will contact you directly about the feasibility of your
project. Although a good idea, there are certain legal requirements and
regulations which have to be considered.

However, I can tell you that the dimensions of the light that you have
mentioned are way beyond anything that could be used as they will fall well
outside the US regulatory limits. To be quite honest, a traser light in the
region of 1.4mm x 7mm would be adequate for the application you have in mind.

Yours sincerely
Roger Green
Managing Director
traser UK Ltd

============================================
At a gun forum, I posted the question "Ever drop your gun?" and this is one of the (abbreviated) answers:

Yep, used to run late at night .... The Hi-Power bounced off the asphalt but the night sights made it easy to find, saw them as it slid across the pavement. I use a lanyard now ....

Ah HA!

Seems I'm onto something here folks. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

And I now KNOW that $110 was way too cheap. Check out the prices for the trijicon sights. http://www.gunaccessories.com/Trijicon/NightSights.asp

Yard sales....that's an idea. I'd imagine you would have to ask since I don't think most people would put them out where someone might steal it.

But what if you live somewhere (like britian) that doesn't allow private ownership?

"Womb Raider"?! http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

I'm assuming "Tomb Raider". http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I had a "sort-of" similar idea about a spring loaded holder that would fit on your duty belt (cop talk) and hold one magazine.

You'd hit it hard with the butt of your empty gun, the magazine would flip out of the holder (still being retained) and you could then slid the gun over it, loading the magazine. The magazine is magnetically retained, or perhaps a little velcro patch...

The idea is that a person could single handedly reload in a second or two without having to use both hands.

One thing I noticed in the "drop your gun" topic was that a lot of peoples shit was falling out of loose, or well worn, holsters. Several of them were in public. Not good if you have a CCW, even worse if you're not supposed to be carrying at all.

Why not superglue a powerful magnet in the holster where the business end of the barrel is to retain it once it's fully inserted. A neodymium magnet of about the size of a dime will hold 10 pounds or more and only costs like $5.

It'd be a good idea to have several of these at various places like under the desk at work, in your car, under cabinets in the house, etc. This way you can always have a place to stick your piece if you need it nearby without being on you.

Or maybe, even better, glue the magnet to the gun itself. And while you're at it, a peel off tab that exposes a sticky glue. Then, if you need to conceal it quickly (like hiding it from bacon) you can stick it to anything and retrieve it later. Or conceal it in places that no one would expect a gun to be able to be hidden, like ON, not in, a wall. All within easy reach.

One thing I've read of is gang-bangers carrying their piece in gallon sized freezer bags. They put their hands in and zip it closed around their wrist so that, during use, the shell casings are retained in the bag, leaving that much less evidience behind for the pork.

PS: I've re-edited the first post with an animated GIf.


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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-04-2001).]

[Sako]

Hey Nbk, I think its a little funny that on your web page you say that your company uses a CNC mill, when it would be just as easy to mill in a slot with a regular mill, you might lose credibility with customers.
What about offering other items, like knives and batons that has the TRASER in the handle......with purchase of glow grip of coarse

[nbk2000]

Modern manufacturers use CNC because of the precision. It's much more accurate and repeatable than manually doing it.

Plus, the equipment is much more expensive, putting it out of the reach of an amatuer. Only a "pro" would invest $20,000 in a CNC milling machine, eh?

And offering other products like batons or such, but only if they send in their guns, that would REALLY sound suspecious.

No, better to "specialize" in only the one product. That way I'd get only the things I'd want, guns.

Any othe suggestions for bogus products that would require someone to mail you their piece? Perhaps some sort of hi-tech electronic do-dad like a "smart lock" or such?

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[Anthony]

Yep, Miss "I'd have two broken wrists if these were live rounds" herself.

The spring from sleeve to hand things from Taxi Driver - "with our latest product YOU can be the most badass mofo in the hood!"

If laser mounts aren't comon for handguns you could fit them, with laser. There's got to be a lot of SWAT wannabes.

[nbk2000]

We had someone post the URL for sleeveguns in the past so I re-found it.

http://home.earthlink.net/~backslash/

Picture of the original can be seen here:

http://www.cia.gov/spy_fi/graphics/sleeve_gun_device.jpg

Unfortunately, as with self-luminous sights, everyone and his BITCH http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif sells them.

The only laser products that I haven't seen available to civilians are IR laser gunsights, green laser gunsights, or blinding lasers.

IR is "restricted" http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/barf.gif to cops and military only for some stupid reason. But IR laser modules are available, and are as near as your CD player. I think a retrofit wouldn't be TOO difficult into normal red laser sights.

Green lasers are available as pointers, but not gunsights. Never mind that the green is WAYYYY brighter than the red. I think it has something to do with delicate construction or something of the diodes.

Blinding lasers are banned under international laws like the geneva, but that (again) only applies to military/LE, not civilians. Commercial lasers costing several thousand dollars can blind quite easily. But integrating that into a weapon might cost some serious bucks.

Supposedly NORINCO (Chinas weapons manufacturer) sells a blinding laser weapon. And the chinese will sell anything to anyone if you're spending enough to make it worth their time.

I remember this neat book called "Tony's Justice" where the bad guy had a gimmicked .45 that he'd let the victim snatch away from him, only to let them discover that it wouldn't work for them. At which point he had already buried a knife in there guts.

But anyways, I'm looking at my air pistol and noted how, by adding a small lever spring to the safety, I could make it so that, unless you're holding the safety in the fire position with your index finger while firing with your middle finger, the safety is always engaged.

Now, if a person had a small stud installed into the frame of a real gun that worked a similar way, if someone snatched your glock (my favorite) away, they couldn't shoot you with it.

After all, how many people are going to shot you with the OSS method of point shooting? That's the way Ruby shot Oswald.

They snatch it, and while they're confused about why the "safetyless" glock isn't working, you stick 'em or run like hell. Either way, you're ass is saved against your own stupidity at letting someone get your piece from you.

I've installed an LED blinker in a pocket dragon handle. I'll post a video later tonight showing what I mean about finding your shit in the dark. And YES, the battery is outside, but what do you want for something that took me 5 minutes to throw together for free?

A Glow-Grip would have lithium watch battery, voltage controller, microswitchs, and SMD LEDs, all encapsulated in silicone. It'd also cost big bucks.

I've thought though that a major drawback to a Glow-Grip would be if you're trying to ditch the gun during a police pursuit or search. Last thing you want is the gun drawing attention to itself by BLINKING at them!

This would be one of those situations where a lanyard would come in handy since you don't have to worry about accidentally losing your piece, thus you don't have to have the blinker turned on.

I've e-mailed Ruger, S&W, and tried to find Glocks e-mail, asking them if I could obtain dummy grips or grip feedstock for a development project for their guns.

I didn't give them ANY details about my idea (I'm not THAT stupid!), just that it involves the grips and that it could mean big bucks for them. Maybe I'll actually get some.

AR-15, I've read elsewhere about the night-sights being "beacons" to NVGs.

Soundtrack for this post provided courtesy of Rage Against the Machine and Fear Factory

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[J]

Just posting to comment on the 'what if you live in Britain' part:

I don't know of any sure way to get a gun (leaving asside making one). If I NEEDED a gun (i.e. my life was in danger) I'd ask some of my friends where they got their drugs from. I'd get in contact with a few dealers, and see if any of them knew anybody who could help.

The obvious disadvatages are that you don't know who you're dealing with and they don't know you.

If they do have a gun, then they could just as easily rip you off AND keep the merchendise. After all, what would you tell the police? Vengeance would be difficult, since you don't know who they really are.

J

------------------
Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

[Anthony]

Dunno if a fax No. for glock is any good to you (I was browsing the site last night):

http://www.glock.com/contact_us.htm

IR Laser (1/2mile):
http://www.gunshoprugby.com/listings/79.html

Green Laser (1mile)[bit pricey this one]
http://www.gunshoprugby.com/listings/80.html

[AR-15 Man]

Ok lets discuss other gun improvements. Let make an AK with a easier safety, better iron sites like ghost rings, make a modular system for it and for AK's in .223 use AR-15 mags cause it is a faster change. Or just a faster mag change system. Ok sorry if you think I want an AR out of the AK but the Ergomics of the AR are impressive. I still love AKs though. Or hell why not just buy an AR-180. Maybe cut an AKs groups down to 1.5 inches (yes Ak aren't accurate some can get groups like that like my SA-85m with match ammo but not regular ammo and certainly not my MAK-90s most of the ARs I have owned can get 1.5 groups with regular ammo) But don't think I am saying AR-15 varients are the best either. With AR-15s make the feed lips stronger. Make sure your user knows how to clean the thing. Also add tungsten inserts to MAC bolts to slow down cylic rate on them down to maybe 500 rounds per minutes. Other than those things I am on the KISS prinicpal on weapons.

[nbk2000]

Uploaded the GLOW-GRIP video to my briefcase.

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo

It's a RealVideo file 218KB in size.

You'll see a blinking LED in the grip of a pocket dragon in both light and total dark.

In the dark, the LED is visible from more than 100 feet away (directly).

BTW, the grips for a pocket dragon can be pried open easily and are almost completely hollow. Plenty of room in there for electronics. Now if I could just find a reliable electronic ignition system....

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[DaRkDwArF]

I did a bit of research into the sleeve gun, I can't find any plans or technical drawings, so I emailed Ted Smith from sleevegun.com here is his reply:

Cheers yourself #####, sorry but I have no pictures,and I do not stock the device.I make it to order. I have one partially finished and could complete it in about a week. How soon do you need it. Maybe you wont need it when I tell you the price. $295.00 P.P. insured and sent priorty mail . Let me know as soon as possible.----TS

That price makes the sleeve gun a little out of everybodys price range, I think I'll get into a little bit of research on the tpoic and I might try making one these holidays.

If anybody here has any pics or plans can you please reply with your e-mail adress

------------------
Do or Do Not, there is no Try

[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited 12-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited 12-06-2001).]

[nbk2000]

Anthony, the IR laser on that site is actually still visible as a very faint dark red. 780nm is at the high end of the visible spectrum. It'd have to be over 9000nm to be truly invisible.

As for the green, US$600+?! Shit, you can buy a green laser module for $200 or less. I think I can manage the rest with the spare change.

The TV gunsight (in my PDF) is a neat idea, but it suffers from having to rely on electronics and batteries.

I called a company that manufacturers fiber optic viewers that use no electronics or anything, just fiber and lens.

They want $1,300! http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif

Now if it was $130....then you'd have the shit there! Sure, it can't see in the dark....but you don't need to worry about using a light if the enemy can't hit you anyways, right?

And FO transmitts IR same as visible, so if you're wearing NVG, you can still use IR illuminators while being behind cover.

Not specifically gun-related, but if there was a small FO periscope attachment that you could extend from your helmet so you could look over a wall or trench without having to expose your head, that would go a long way to keeping it (your head) intact.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Periscope.jpg

Another idea I've been kicking around for a long time is personal ECM (Electronic Counter-Measures).

Start with a car Laser/Radar detector that can determine the direction of the threat. Add in a circuit to activate an explosive smoke canister that projects out in the direction of the threat laser.

When you're lased by an enemy piggie, the detector squeals a moment before it launches a flashbang-smoke canister.

The squeal lets you know that it's detected a threat and is about to launch CM ( CounterMeasures), allowing you to brace for it.

The canister fires from a projector (design your own) out about 7 feet before it explodes with a thunderous bang, blinding flash, and large cloud of dense smoke.

This will startle the enemy, temporarily flash blind them (at night), and obscure their seeing you with the smoke.

You can then E&E, or hit the deck (out of the line of fire) and let loose on 'em. http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon22.gif

Radar would activate a jammer to prevent them from using their new radar motion detector to detect your position/presence.

You might also want to throw in EM field (proximity detectors) and Ultrasound (motion detectors) to warn of pesky burglar alarms.

I'd also include a voice command switch to command lauch it front or back in case the enemy gets the drop on you without lasing. You pretend to surrender (if they don't immediately shoot you) and then BANG 'em!

They do have voice-recognition that can be programmed, recognize a voice under almost any condition, and small too, though expensive at several hundred dollars.

A FO mesh over the vest would detect a bullet strike and automatically launch CM to prevent a follow up shot to your head. Throw in a manual switch on the collar (hands behind your head) and now you're set. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif

Body armor has its uses, but most likely the threat is to your front, so why weigh yourself down with the unneeded weight?

Take off the back half, and pass it over to your 2nd. You DO have a 2nd, right? You should NEVER fight alone.

Or, you can wear both half halves on the front to make it twice as bullet-resistant for the same weight.

The russians have these neat silent cartridges for normal guns that are TOTALLY silent. All the combustion gas is contained within the casing. There is enough recoil to operate normal semi and fully automatic weapons.

They're lethal out to 25 yards, which isn't a lot, but more than enough inside of a house or building.

Mow 'em down with only the screams being heard. Maybe not even screams if you head-shot 'em by surprise. http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon18.gif

We've already covered automatic "sentry" guns in the past.

With the GLOW-GRIPS you could color code the gun to indicate what kind it is (pistol, rifle, etc) which might be useful.

I'd definitely think that marking the magazines would be useful. Green would be ball, yellow/tracer, red/poisoned or AP, etc.

The TRASERs for this would be in the top of the magazine so it won't show. Only when you open up your ammo pouch would it show.

Or perhaps they could be in the magazine follower, so after you eject it, you can find it in the dark to take it with you.

IDEA: put luminous tape on the follower. When the last round is fired, the flash will (might?) charge up the tape so it'll glow for at least a minute or two afterwards.

Magazines with geometric shapes glued/formed into them would do the same thing by feel. Ball/Round, Tracer/Star, AP/Triangle, Poisoned/Trifoil, Hollowpoint/Square.

A velcro patch attached to magazines, with a velcro panel on your vest/armor would allow you to slap the used magazines on so you don't waste time with putting them back into the pouch, and you don't leave them behind.

It also allows you to have a spare magazine immediately available without dinking around with pouches.

A retractable lanyard built into the weapons stock/grip that extends out a few feet and locks would be cool. It's out of the way when not needed, but you can instantly clip on when needed (climbing/swimming) so you don't lose your piece.

Wouldn't a gun with built in stunner be neat? If it's out of your hand, it goes "hot", making it impossible for anyone else to pick it up and use it against you.

Naturally, they wouldn't find this out till they pick it up. http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon25.gif http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Soundtrack for this post provided by Kitaro and Soul Coughing

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-07-2001).]

[PYRO500]

How about a amall charge of ap or something in the handle, when you loode the gun anyone picking it up without a special ring or something that causes the bullets to cook off, just let me not here I would not choose AP for this task, it's too unstable.

------------------
visit my web page at:
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/]

[nbk2000]

And what happens if you're dead ass tired and grab the gun, forgetting that you took off the transponder ring in the shower?

OOPS!

Not good....

Anything that I'm carrying on a daily basis has to be safe for me, even if I forget about the tricks.

A stunner, though painful, isn't going to blow off my hand.

I have been thinking that an incendiary coating on the exterior of the gun could be useful.

The mix would have to be something durable, so it won't flake off. It also has to be ignitable ONLY with a special igniter or intense, prolonged flame. This way it doesn't ignite from a gun shot.

The coating is applied to the slide and grip. When you need to ditch the gun, you ignite the coating. This burns off removing fingerprints and DNA, while also damaging the gun, preventing it's reuse if found by someone.

This could be automated by embedding a timer circuit in the coating that'll ignite it if removed from the magnetically charged holster for more than an hour or two. This way, if lost or recovered by pigs, it makes no difference.

Unfortunately, a lot of ideas require electronics, which I know absolutely squat shit about.

But, an associate is paroling in a few months and he's been taking vocational training from an ex-silicon valley enginner in electronics. So that should be useful.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[BoB-]

Hey NBK, I dont own a glock so it took me a while to notice this, isnt there a big button magazine release on the left side of the Glock model firearm? A glock owner might notice that there isnt one on the pictured gun dude.

It might fuck your credibilty if victims can tell the "satisfied customer's" gun isnt real http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

------------------
Teamwork is essential.
It lets you blame someone else.



[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited 12-09-2001).]

[nbk2000]

Well, it looks more and more like I could actually make a real business off this:

===========================================

Dear Mr. *******

Through our representative in England (traser UK) we have received your inquiry for a suitable traser® for embedding in a pistol grip.

We are the manufacturer of traser® lights and produce them exactly to the
manufacturers specifications. Accordingly it is not at all a problem to produce a special sized traser® for your application.

We understand the purpose of introducing a traser® in the grip of a pistol is that the
weapon can be found quickly in the dark. We assume that the pistol should be seen from distance of up to 3 m.

If our assumption is correct, a much smaller light, e.g. a traser® having a diameter of
1.4 mm and a length of 5 mm could be used.

In our opinion this light should provide enough brightness, especially if it is embedded on white surface.

There are two reason for using the smallest possible traser®:

1. The price for the above traser® would be in the order of CHF 1.- (USD $0.60) each while a traser® with diameter 3 mm and a length of 25 mm would cost CHF 4.50 (USD $2.70).

2. The tritium content is much smaller on a small light (for instance 20mCi) for the example given above, compared with 500 mCi for the light you suggested in our mail. A small tritium content would give you much
better chances to get the necessary permission to import and handle the traser®
and also the permission to distribute your pistols containing a traser® in the grip.

Assuming you are located in the USA, you would have to contact the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission to get such permissions.

In other countries there are equivalent authorities, but each country has its own regulations and the fact that you have for instance a permission to distribute the product in one country does not necessarily mean you can distribute in an other country too.

To get these permissions may take at least several months.

Nevertheless, we are prepared to support you as much as we can. If you would be so kind to let us have your postal address we will be pleased to send you our documentation and if you wish samples of different size free of charge http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon25.gif for your first experiments regarding the required size of the traser®.

Sincerely yours
mb-microtec ag

Jacob Bänziger
General Marketing Manager

=============================================

Ahh...the joys of free industrial samples. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Looks like Christmas came early for me.

I'm going to ask for dots, bars, cylinders, and squares in both green, yellow, and IR.

Needless to say, in accordance to the RTPB "Anything free must be exploited!", I'm going to, after I get the first ones, be constantly pestering them for various types, sizes, and shapes for my ever increasing "product development research". http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon7.gif

And let's not forget shop spoilage, ya know? These little glass tubes are bound to break when being test fired, eh? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

OOOHHHH, it burns me up to see the prices that the manufacturer charges for the things, and compare that to the ursuris mark up that trijicon tacks on!

60 cents, and trijicon is charging $50 over for smaller lamps!

As regards the magazine release button, it's at the junction of the trigger guard, where it meets the grip.

Being black on black it's very difficult to see it in pictures.

And realism is the reason I use real gun photos, so there'd be NO technical errors to trip me up like that.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[vulture]

How about coating it with plastic that gets dark when heat is applied, so if you run around with it in the dark, the heat of your hand will turn the plastic dark and block the light, making you less visible.
With all these polymers we have nowadays that should be possible.

btw, i thought tritium is a hydrogen isotope, 1 proton, 2 neutrons?

------------------
"I just need some tolene...tolyl? How you call that stuff mam, need to help my mother painting..."

[nbk2000]

Firearms are useable at any temperature from arctic to tropics. Trying to use temperature sensitive polymers as shutters, while a nice idea, wouldn't be practicle.

What if you're wearing gloves, or it's -30F outside? What if you live in texas where it's over 95 at night?

Besides, if your hand can warm it, your hand can cover it, eh? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Yes, tritium is ³H, but it breaks down into helium. There's always helium present with tritium.

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[nbk2000]

Quick Update:

The tritium lamps are on the way, having been airmailed from Switzerland monday. So (probably) this week I'll have at least a half dozen of the little bastards to toy with.

Next time I post here I'll have video of them in the dark for your perusal.

Also, in order to import these, a person needs an NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commision) license.

But, having a "legit" purpose for these, and a demonstrator model and business plan, I should have it within a few months.

Why do I mention this? Well...once you have an NRC license, that means you can get ALL nuke goodies! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Except plutonium. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

Depleted uranium would be a start. I was supposed to get some from the manufacturer as a "research sample" but the fuckers flaked on me. BASTARDS!

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[RTC]

Not to sound impatient, but have they arrived?

Also has your NRC gone through ok?

And I assume the depleated uranium could be refined into weapons grade..?

------------------
We have assembled here today to teach you all a little lesson. One cannot remain on top for years while closing one's mind to the influence of others. I will demonstrate the true meaning of inovation for all you to see.

[nbk2000]

Yes, I have received them.

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/TRASERS.jpg

I got 10 "grains of rice" (worth ¢60 each)(though actually smaller than rice) lights, 2 matchstick sized (worth $2 each), and one large IR light (~$5).

I've already broken one of the "grain" lamps. It didn't like getting squished between a gun hammer and the frame. :(

Some observations I've made:

The tiny lights aren't visible beyond about 3 yards except in absolute darkness, and even then you can't see them past about 6 yards because they're so small. Fireflys are brighter.

But they are more than adequate for gun sights, which is where I now have two of them, taped on my guns sights till I get a dremel tool and can permanently install them.

The matchstick lamps are awesome! One of them is sufficent to see a pathway in total darkness, two is better of course. :)

I could see one light from more than 20 yards during an overcast full moon. Could probably double that during no moon.

The IR light has a faint orange glow to it. It's the dimmest of the lights in apparent brightness, but it's also easier to see from farther away then the "grains" because its size makes it easier to resolve. I can see it from about 10 yards in very dim light.

And being orange makes it easy to differentiate the grip from the sights and the way the lights are showing lets you know which way the handle is pointing.

I'm currently using the orange in a simple "red dot" sight. I have a short cardboard tube with the lamp suspended in mid-air by having one end wrapped in toilet paper. The lamp is in the far end of the tube. I then taped it to the top of the gun.

Now, I have simply to align the "dot" of the lamp in the middle of an orange halo and I'm on target.

I think I'll be needing to get some colored "grains" next order.

I'm thinking that, while the "matchstick" lamps are great and would allow for finding your gun no problem, they're TOO bright for tactical use. The reflected light would give you away. But they would be adequate for hunters to find a dropped weapon.

I'm now thinking that a configaration like this:

<PRE>
| | (RED)
| |
=====
===== (GREEN)
</PRE>

would be better. An inverted T, with the wide part towards the base, and the long end towards the top. This both tells you the guns orientation, uses minimal trasers (easier to import), and emits enough light to see it for a few yards but not enough to give you away to an enemy at a distance.

No, I haven't applied yet for the NRC license. Firstly, I need to actually develop this as a product, establish a need amongst law-enforcement, THEN apply. Because I'd be supplying the piggies, it'd be more likely to be approved, and allow for more powerful lamps to be imported.

BTW, ALL Depleted Uranium is considered "weapons grade" though not in an atomic bomb sense. It's used to make armor piercing bullets. I was supposed to get some GAU-8 30mm DU penetrators from the manufacturer to make microturbine generator flywheels (for laptop computers ;) ), but they flaked on me and I didn't feel like pressing the issue. I'll hit 'em up again if I get the NRC license. Then they can't give me no shit.

Next on the agenda is to obtain some sapphire windows for protecting the lights. I've got a big list of manufacturers I'm going to be hitting up for "samples". :) Also quartz and tempered glass. Though I prefer sapphire because of its well known scratch resistance.

Another thing I've been looking at is the newest type of phosphorescent materials. Not the green paint crap you can buy at the hobby store, but some seriously bright shit that'll stay glowing for more than 12 hours after only a few minutes exposure to light.

It's called (don't laugh) <A HREF="http://www.starscapes.com/alienskin/3.htm">"Alien Skin"</A>. $30 for 4 sheets@5"x7".

This would have the advantage of not needing any license, is totally solid-state (hence no need for protecting fragile lamps), and cheap (compared to the trasers).

It does need to be exposed to light though to be charged so it wouldn't work for guns that are stored for long periods of time in the dark like in gun safes or trunks. But for a home-owner who keeps it on the nightstand, it'd be perfect.

There's a similar product called "Extreme Glow" that's not quit as bright, but much cheaper, that be used similarly. It's also available in powdered form so it could be cast in acrylic resin into any shape I'd like, like a gun grip panel.

I'd like a hybrid of the two. A large phosphorescent panel for maximum brightness, and a traser light as a permanent backup, all encapsulated behind a shock mounted, scratch proof sapphire window.

I'm also thinking there's other things that could be done with the lamps. Installing a red lamp in the hammer spur so it shows when the hammer is cocked back, or a lamp in the safety so it's green when it's engaged, red (or none) when it's off.

In other news, there's now an installable safety available for glocks at <a href="http://www.cominolli.com/glocksafety.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cominolli.com/glocksafety.htm</a>

Also, a trigger block is available for $15 called <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/saftblok/">Saf-T-Blok</A> that installs behind the trigger in a glock.

<CENTER>http://members.aol.com/saftblok/stealth4.gif</CENTER>

It's a simple piece of plastic that you can pop out by simply pressing against it with your trigger finger.

Now, if someone snatches your glock away, it'll take them a few seconds (at least) to figure out why it won't fire, by which time you've either counterattacked or ran away.

Though I'd suggest attaching it to the gun using a very short lanyard (inch or two), lest you leave behind a little plastic plug at a crime scence with a partial fingerprint on it. Not good...

It'll also keep you from blowing off your nuts if you stuff it in your pants.

Anyways, I tried to take pictures, but my JamCam can't take pictures in the dark. I'll have video as soon as I get the windows CD I need for installing the video camera drivers. Sometime this week.

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</p>

[nbk2000]

I got the CD I needed and have upped a 3.6MB, 1 minute long RealVideo to the FTP showing the various TRASERs, comparing size and brightness, and showing the gun use.

It's a little rough since I wanted to get it out ASAP.

Please note that the lamps are actually much brighter to the eye than it is to the camera. The large lamps are detectable out to almost 50 yards in total darkness (no moon or stars), the small lights to 10 yards.

[RTC]

Looks good, When you show the smaller one as a close up, are you holding it with a pair of tweezers?

[nbk2000]

Forceps actually. The small lamps are too small to be held by the fingers without totally covering them up.

I've already broken two of the smaller ones. :(

The punks at Glock refused to send me any of their plastic stock material to practice on, saying they don't want to give implied consent to any modifications that'd be performed on their product. :confused: Whatever!

Now I just have to get some money for a dremel and an airsoft gun to start carving on. Still haven't received any of the sapphire window samples yet.

Once I've got that suitably done, I'll produce a real slick video demo (it'll take me days instead of the hour my previous video took) that'll look like it was professionally produced, or a really good amatuer at least. I've got the tools, thanks to warez. :)

Then I'll send it to the TRASER people to make them "Ooh and Ahh" over the new Glow-Grip "product". :D

THEN, I'll hit them up for a butt load more of the lights, saying that I need them for sending out to the gun rags for reviewing to build up market hype...yada yada. ;)

[mr.evil]

Hey,
Has anyone of you guys made an 'blackpowder' cannon? i've just know to obtain a barrel from an old gun(about 4.5mm, i think an old air rifle :rolleyes: )

later this week i make a rack, from wood..to put the 'cannon' in it, damn i wish i had an digital camera :(

(sorry for my shitty english)

[Bitter]

Not a very big cannon is it ?

[mr.evil]

hehe no not really :D , you can't call it a cannon i think, it's more an home-improved-gun.
but anyway, it's my first one...
(accept of my 2spudguns :cool: )

[nbk2000]

Mr. evil, you're severely off topic!

Potato guns, cannons, whatever, does NOT fit in with the subject of this topic.

Post a new topic to discuss it, or better yet, reply to an existing topic. Just change you're view from "(whatever) past days" to "all topics".

[A-BOMB]

I got an idea why don't we all pitch in a by a ramsome rest and all the ramsome rest inserts and then offer to sight in peoples rifles and pistols prefectly for them, It gives a good way to shoot all kinds of guns and use them for other things like assinasion, robberies, that sort of thing (like we would ever to that, all us the pictures of grace and goodness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

[nbk2000]

People don't send off their guns to get sighted in because its much easier to do it themselves. Especially since scopes are highly sensitive to being jostled about.

Anyways, I've thought of something else that can be done to improve a gun.

It's not something you could really sell, but it'd be good for your own use, if you happen to be of the criminal persuasion. :D

The following is part of an article in NBK v2.0

Also, from now on, I'm watermarking my pictures. I caught someone using one of my pictures elsewhere.

Also, I'd like to clarify what constitutes a "Gun" as it relates to this topic. A gun is anything that uses a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a lethal projectile from a factory manufactured weapon. It does NOT include potato launching toys or improv'd BP cannons, OK? :rolleyes:

<HR ALIGN="CENTER" SIZE="5">

Every gun has a handle for you to hold it by. This is also the most likely part of a weapon for the police to find either your fingerprints or DNA.

One trick that used to be used by Mafia hitters was to wrap the handle of a gun (usually) with cloth tape. This made it impossible to retrieve any fingerprints since it wasn't a smooth surface.

But this trick no longer works because the fabric would retain DNA in the form of skin cells. Plus the forensics lab can use cyanoacrylate fuming or laser luminescence to recover prints off of fabric.

But you can obviate this hazard entirely if you coat the handle and all normal contact surfaces of the weapon with a lacquer made from smokeless gunpowder. This lacquer is ignited, and as it burns off, it turns into gas, removing all DNA and fingerprints with it.

To make the lacquer, you use any smokeless powder available, preferably single base. This is dissolved in warm acetone till a thick, honey-like consistency is reached.

You prime the gun for coating by roughening the surfaces with a steel brush or grinding wheel. It must be roughend or the lacquer will flake off from handling.

<CENTER> <img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Pyro-Coated-Gun_WM.jpg" alt="" /></CENTER>[

You then paint all the surfaces of the gun that would be touched by your hands in normal usage. You DO NOT paint the sights, pins, catches or releases, the slide, or any other moving part together. Much like you wouldn't paint a window shut.

All the levers and parts must be free to move.

You paint the lacquer on in thin, even, layers over the needed places, allowing to dry thoroughly between coatings.

Once you've achieved 5 or more layers, the lacquer will be strong enough for handling.

You then take a similar lacquer made of polystyrene dissolved in acetone and paint it over the pyro coating. This will prevent any sparks or flames from the gun from prematurely igniting it. Two coatings should be sufficient.

You could add a small blob of igniter compound as shown to ease ignition, but simply taking a match to it will ignite it. Once ignited, it can't be put out, even if totally underwater.

Now I can hear some of you saying "Why would I ruin a perfectly good gun by burning it up?".

The answer to that is simple...BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO END UP BEING BUBBA'S BITCH IN PRISON! Which is where you'll end up if the cops find your fingerprints or DNA on a murder weapon, dumbass.

[mrloud]

Here's an Australian company (actually just one guy) that makes "laser bullets". Basically it's just an empty shell with a laser diode in it. This guy sells his product to the police and army for a large sum of money.

Unfortunately this won't require people to send you their guns NBK, but it could help in getting you a good reputation amongst gun owners.

(edited to upadte signature now that MIT's PGP key server requires you to connect on port 11371)

<small>[ March 14, 2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: mrloud ]</small>

[xoo1246]

Why not coat you hands with a par of gloves? Mags and shells have finger prints too.

[FragmentedSanity]

Lo all :)

I just thought it worth mentioning that NBK never said you had to burn the gun when whatever job was finished. A coating like that would stay on the gun for ages and would be used WHEN or IF needed - and as for gloves - with all the high tek gizmos forensics have these days (if youve never been shown through a police forensics lab you really dont know - and no - watching CSI dosent count) I wouldnt trust gloves as much as Id trust a nice hot flame.
any ideas on roughly how hot it would get NBK?
or could the pyro varnish be made burn hotter by addition of some al powder or something? personally Id like it to get hot enough to warp and distort the piece beyond all hope of ever functioning again.

later all
FS

[nbk2000]

I believe it burns at over 1,200F. More than enough to take care of the plastic frame most weapons have nowadays.

A person could add aluminum powder or such to make the flame a little hotter. Just add it to the lacquer while sitll liquid.

You're also correct that the coating isn't always used. It's just there in case of need. Especially since one may not have been wearing gloves at the time of use (unexpected emergencies happen).

[A-BOMB]

NBK, I just found this stuff at the store its a polimeric plastic compound that you paint onto a tool to keep it from being comtaminated by a substance(oil,gas,ketones,cleaning fluids), and when your done with your job you just pull on a tap that you affixed to it be for you coated it and it comes right off. Wells heres my idea you paint the hold pistol with the paint then when the jobs over you just pull off the coating and presto a clean gun with no prints or DNA. So what to you think? Ooo Aaa new smilies :)

[mongo blongo]

I thought it was worth mentioning something I watched on TV a while back.You may already know this though.
It was about forensics being able to tell if you fired a specific bullet by examining your cloths.
When a bullet if fired from a gun, small amounts of the bullet is vaporized into the air. This vapor then condenses into small globules and settles onto the surrounding environment. It can land on your cloths, skin,etc.
Every bullet is manufactured in batches and contains it's own unique amounts of elements. (I can't remember which ones, I think Antimony was one of them.)
They can then examine the cloths under an electron microscope and pick particles and qualitatively determine what elements are present. This can then be matched up with a specific batch of bullets.
So i guess you can still be fucked even if the murder weapon was never found!
You would also have to get rid of the cloths and wash loads to prevent this.

[nbk2000]

A-Bomb, are you talking about the stuff called "Plasti-dip"? That could work too, though I don't know about how much heat it could take from a rapid fired pistol before the slide got hot enough to melt it off.

Also, if you have to ditch the gun in a hurry (hot persuit), than what do you do with the plastic you peeled off? It'll still have the residue (Prints, DNA) on it, and it is something you'd have to destroy anyways. But you could possibly use that instead of the polystyrene for a better grip since it is rubbery.

Mongo, that's called "Thermal Nuetron Activation Analysis". They bombard the evidence with thermal nuetron radiation, which causes all the metallic elements to emit characteristic patterns of alpha, beta, and gamma radiation. The ratios and intensity of the resulting radiation can be match to sample bullets.

The way to avoid this, besides properly dressing for it, is to use one box of bullets, and to dispose of them, and the weapon that fired them, immediately after use.

Without the specific bullets or weapon to compare their TNA results against, they're only left with the most general type of evidence, which any decent defense lawyer can discredit.

Also, I thought you'd like to know that Metro Dade police (florida) marks their agencys Glock barrels by putting a small prick mark with a punch at the end of the barrel to differentiate their fired bullets from any "bad guys" bullets.

This came after a cop and criminal got into a shoot out (both using Glocks of the same caliber) and a bystander was killed. The forensics lab couldn't tell who's gun fired the lethal shot because Glocks are extremely similar because of the tight tolerances and quality of machining.

[nbk2000]

I just found these nifty all plastic bullet and casings that use a primer as the propellant.

<img src="http://www.speer-bullets.com/images/training.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="http://www.speer-bullets.com/bullets/training.html" target="_blank">http://www.speer-bullets.com/bullets/training.html</a>

300-400 FPS wih just a primer. Now they SAY not to use any additional propellant. But I'd imagine with a grain of red-dot that the plastic slug would zip along quite quickly.

Extrememly close range, hand assembled, using minimal metal content metal primers (possibly use primer pellets of Armstrong mix for metal free priming), cheap....I see potential here.

<small>[ March 17, 2002, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[FragmentedSanity]

Ive been thinking about somethng like that ever since I bought a confetti gun - I thnk you posted some details about it NBK, but Id given the idea up by then as I could never find and info on casting plastics.
I could only see these as useful if completely self manufactured - otherwise you would need all the licencing involved in buying real bullets and then you may as well buy them.
So does our vast collective consciousness have any knowledge about making plastics and casting shapes with it?

It would not only have potential for bypassing metal detectors - but owuld be great for what those cartridgers are designed for - cheap training rounds - especailly handy as they would be easy to silence so you could use it indoors without too many problems and shoot the mice or the neighbors cat or whatever.
FS

[nbk2000]

I don't know where you live, but in the US at least, you can buy ammo through the mail with no ID or anything. You just send them a signed statement to the effect "I'm not a kid or a criminal" and you're set. :)

You can cast bullets if you must using auto body filler epoxy (Bond-o) and plaster molds.

And I also thought that the Speer bullet casings looked like the confetti gun shells. Maybe they're the same?

[nbk2000]

Well, I've tried out the pyro coating idea and it works.

I used shotgun powder dissolved in acetone to a thin honey syrup consistancy. This was poured over a metal knife handle in thin layers and allowed to dry before another layer was put on.

After it was at least a millimeter thick, it was put in a warm oven for a half hour for final drying.

It ignited fairly easily, and burned completely, leaving only a thin filmy residue that peeled off easily.

There was no damage to the knife.

What I've learned so far is that coating wood with this doesn't work. Apparently the wood acts as an insulator and prevents the coating from burning. Maybe it needs the heat transfer of metal to continue burning, I don't know.

I thought I could add potassium nitrate to increase burning. It doesn't work. It just sputters and pops for a second before going out.

I then tried it with sugar/nitrate (50/50) but that was no better. It only worked with straight NC.

The layers must be at least a millimeter or more to sustain the combustion. Otherwise it does nothing without a constant flame being held on it.

A couple of seconds with a lighter got it burning well. It only takes a few seconds, burns quietly, with no smoke, and burns underwater too.

I posted a RealVideo of it in my briefcase link below.

More testing is in order.

[RTC]

Say's the folder's empty?

Good testing btw.

[FragmentedSanity]

Lo again :)
The tests sound promising. All you need is a custom magnesium grip - lets see the piggies try and put that out :p
or would a zinc/sulfur/NC lacqure mix be stable enough to carry. at a guess Id say a mix like that would need to be put on over a coat of straight lacquer - and then sealed with another layer. A treatment like that should work for wood too.
Anyways - Im in AUstralia (.au) and here I you cant even buy air rifle pellets without a licence anymore (which is why im so interested in home made guns&ammmo - HUGE market potential :p
Oh and one other thing - I didnt just want to cast bullets - I wanted to make a whole plastic singleshot breech loader - complete with rubberband powered hammer... Ill get around to it oneday.
gotta run
FS

[nbk2000]

No, my folder's not empty, but apparently only I can access it. So I've uploaded the files to the FTP.

[nbk2000]

I'll be damned! There's some bastard company selling guncamera sights now for only $1,500.

<img src="http://www.rahq.com/images/peek_a_boom/gun_in_hand_suspect_in_screen_sm.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="http://www.rahq.com/gun_camera.htm" target="_blank">http://www.rahq.com/gun_camera.htm</a>

Seems rather shoddily built to me, but it's starting to get cheaper. The version in my first PDF was $15,000. Though one has to wonder just how greedy these bastards are.

Less than $100 for a camera, and under $100 for a pocket TV...who the fuck would BUY one at these prices?

But I'm sure sooner or later the idea will become common practice for both sides of the law. It's just going to take one dramatic incident to get the idea out to the mainstream.

[angelo]

well those screens look massive, in your pdf did you not have a mounted screen at eye level?

[nbk2000]

Yes, the original version used an eyescope instead of a TV screen. Those kind of viewers are available for about $500 now. But the rugular TV version has the advantage of being much cheaper and available than an eyescope. Plus you can share the view with your fellow crimies.

[nbk2000]

Well, after a bit of a delay <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , I've got some test results in on the pyrotechnic coating.

I made a solution of acetone and smokeless powder with a honey-like consistancy. I coated various objects to various thicknesses and these are my observations:

Wood and plastic are unsuitable for coating. Neither one supports combustion of the coating except in extremely thick (several millimeter) layers.

(My theory is that these materials act as an insulator that prevents the transmission of the heat formed by the combustion, thus sqelching the flame propagation.)

I tried adding oxidizers (nitrates and chlorates) to the coating mix to increase combustion on these materials, but without success.

Metals, on the other hand, support combustion wonderfully. A layer a little thicker than cellophane will burn up within a few moments. The thicker the layer, the slower the combustion.

I've got a short video clip showing a steel knife with the handle coated, and the coating burning off in a couple seconds that I'll post a link to later.

I had left fingerprints on the coated handle using gun oil and, after combustion, there was no traces left. :D

It may be that the addition of a metal powder like aluminium would serve the same purpose of conducting the heat to support combustion. I leave that to others to try out.

[xoo1246]

Sounds interesting, sureley there must be something you can mix with the coating to improve it's reliability, magnesium or maybe powdered glas. How would you provide igniton of the coating that is secure and reliable? E-match integrated in the handle? And by the burning of this coating you might end up with residue on you that binds you to the weapon, a delay would be nice.

[nbk2000]

Given the way forensic science is progressing, I wouldn't be surprised. :mad:

Since the coating IS used as firearms propellant, it'd naturally leave nitrate GSR (Gun Shot Residue) on you if you were in extremely close proximity to it while it was burning.

The ignition disk would provide a second or so delay...enough time to toss it before it started burning.

An electronic delay would be tres' chic. :) A battery (or supercapacitor) would pass a charge through an e-match after an IC timer gives a short delay, of perhaps a minute, to avoid drawing attention to you with the resulting flames.

Problem is electronics and batteries have a bad habit of dying on you when you need them most...like when you're ditching a bloodied weapon with the piggies hot on your ass! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> So I go with the KISS principle of strictly pyrotechnic delays.

I don't think adding glass powder would be a good idea since it's easily identifiable, and nearly impossible to remove the traces of it from your clothes and skin, even after repeated washing. But magnesium powder would definitely support combustion. I'm thinking that wrapping a wood or plastic handle with aluminum foil might provide the needed heat conductance. This would be very simple to do and cheap as dirt.

Furthur work will need to be done in enclosing the coating in an inert layer to prevent premature ignition from stray sparks. Also, testing on whether or not the coating would auto-ignite from prolonged firing of the weapon. That could prove very nasty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[nbk2000]

Well, got the video uploaded.

Go to the ftp and download the RealVideo (.RM extension) file called "Pyro_Coating". It was in the uploads section, but I don't know where it was moved to now (Ctrl_C?).

[angelo]

Got it, its in the recent folder.

At first I thought it was a match that you were going to light the coating with then I realised it was the knife. :rolleyes:

by the way, awesome soundtrack

[nbk2000]

I just happened to have Metallica blasting at the time I made the video. <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon6.gif" alt=" - " />

Because of the music, you can't hear the coating burning. But you wouldn't have heard anything anyways since it burns silently...no noise other than a very slight hiss. :)

[nbk2000]

Well, in accordance with RTPB "Imitate, then innovate", I've imitated Trijicons Tri-power scope ((Tri-power refers to 3 light sources, not magnification. Cost US$560) which uses a fiberoptic light gather, tritium lamp, battery backup, and an undocumented cyalume minilamp option as a fourth light source...for not even $15. :D

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Cyalume_Night-sight_WM.jpg" alt=" - " />

Fiberoptic sight = $10

Tritium lamp = Free (Sample scammed from manufacturer :p )

Cyalume fishing lure light = $3 for two

LED + Battery = Free (from trashed electronics)

With the Traser lamp, there's no need for the cyalume light, but for the rest of you who don't have Trasers to use, you can use the cyalume lure lights to illuminate the gunsight for up to 6 hours.

I left out the LED from the illustration since it's redundant.

A snap-in holds the cyalume light, which then snaps onto the fiberoptic rod to provide lighting for your sight. This way, you have a cheap day/night sight for your guns that doesn't require any batteries or expensive equipment.

If you really want to be cheap, steal the fiberoptic sight from the sporting goods section, same with the lure lights, then use electricans tape to hold the lure light onto the FO sight. Cost = free. Can't beat that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[nbk2000]

One of the problems inherent with long range accuracy of weapons is the human who is holding it. With the annoying habits of breathing and hearts beating causing all kinds of erratic jumping around of the barrel, it's a miracle anything gets hit.

So, since there's image stabilization for camcorders, why can't they have active stabilization for personal weapons? I'm thinking a ring at the end of a barrel contains very small reaction jets that use a propellant, microprocessor, and positional sensors to detect and counteract the tiny tremors caused by involuntary body movement.

Because the tremors are very slight, the jet impulse doesn't have to be strong at all, just enough to dampen them out for a couple of seconds while getting a final bead on a distant target.

[Asger]

Since you mention jets and stabilisation here, a thing comes into mind. I once saw some kind of 'antigravity' experiment ('Gravity defying' may be a more appropriate term)
I think it was, on the discovery channel. It was very neat but I haven't been able to find anything about it anywhere (google, NASA homepage og Discovery homepg or here.)

They had a shoobox sized shuttle like thing floating in mid air. Now there was no hokus pokus about it because it was obvious that the device was carried and stabilized by series of rapid jets or blasts fired in straight downward or diagonally downward direction.
About 5 per second. They could move this thing sideways, up and down ofcourse and even rotate it by controlling the explosions. At all times the device seemed very stable considering how it was carried. The explosions/jets gave out flashes about 10-20 cm long and was obviously very visible and loud. It was remotley controlled but I don't remember if it was wireless. There could have been a wire hanging down from it.
After a while, perhaps when it ran out of explosive energy, it fell into a net below and the crew appeared very happy with what seemed a quite sucessfull test/experiment. This is how I recall what I saw.

Does any of you have any clue as to who did this and what it was... ?

If this post is malplaced I will copy it into some 'Antigravity' topic somewhere else here. And a moderator can delete this one.
Not to take any attention away from Your topics NBK.
Thanks

[nbk2000]

I've seen what you're describing. It wasn't an anti-gravity device, it was a test of a "Star Wars" missile interceptor.

[angelo]

I have also seen it. As far as I saw it was wireless.

But have also been unlucky looking for more info on it.

[nbk2000]

It seems blindingly obvious in hindsight.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Glock%20Pistol%20Grip.jpg" alt=" - " />

It's well known to have inert "pistol" grips on the forend of a long gun to allow for both hands to stabilize it.

Problem, though, is that if you run out of ammo for the rifle/shotgun at a critical moment, you either have to switch to an alternate weapon, or reload. Either one takes at least a couple of seconds...seconds which could get you killed.

Say you're room clearing after fragging a room. You go rushing in to finish up survivors when one pops up from behind a couch. You aim your rifle and pull the trigger.

Click.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Ohhhhhsshhittttt....you now remember having burned up an entire mag during the assualt, but didn't quite remember to change it. But the guy leveling the guage at you didn't. End game.

Well, with a (literal) pistol grip, you'd simply pull the trigger of the pistol that's already in your hand and aimed at the target. ZERO transition time. :)

With the additional weight and length provide by the long arm, the pistol would have much greater accuracy and reduced recoil than normal, providing for more effective range and rapidity of fire.

Plus, you could easily remove it to give to someone else, since it'd be in a mounting, not permanently built in.

Also, I've read how frangible bullets (like Mag-Safe or the sintered copper powder type) are capable of defeating many level IIA ballistic vests, like the piggies wear.

Well, with metal powders, you can use CORBON swaging dies to compact them together into solid shapes. With the ability to compress particles of different metals together, I don't see any reason why you couldn't make the bullets out a dense metal like tungsten (for penetration) with toxic heavy metals like thallium, arsenic, or such.

Upon hitting the vest, the projectile begins to disintegrate, giving the vest fibers nothing to grab onto. As it does so, it frees the toxic metals into the target in a finely divided state deep inside the organs.

:D

[Agent Blak]

You could use a Tracer and an Mg Pressed with some SP(projectile). At close range it would burn going in and if it is in them it will continue inside of you.

One shot may not put me down hell it might just piss me off; I might be in the mood to go Tarintino... But if something is burning in side of my chest, etc, my ass ain't gonna move much.

This could also be used to destroy evidence; Put a round in to a couch...

[Zyklon_B]

The Obvious fault in your "pistol" grip design is the use for a handgun that requires a slide to function, and the slide cannot be used to brace the handgun to the rifle since it moves back and forth during the firing cycle. And even if you fixed that problem by bracing onto the accessory rail, like found on the Glock shown above, your going to have the mount the handgun lower from the forearm to help in cocking the firearm, and to prevent ejection problems.

The real solution is mounting a Masterkey shotgun system to the lower area of the rifle as demonstrated in this picture:

<img src="http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/kmc_masterkey.jpg" alt=" - " />

This is a milspec design that does work, and doesn't require any special homemade parts. And a shotgun lends to better improvised rounds.

Just my view.

[Agent Blak]

I have had an Idea for years that was a Submachine Gun that sports a 12gauge(over under)for those up close and personal situations.

where can you get that mod from?

[nbk2000]

Several problems present with the masterkey for those who can legally own firearms (present company excluded, but who doesn't care anyways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

One, extremely short barreled shotguns like that are considered "sawed-off" and require ATF approval as an AOW or DD. This requires making it known to piggies that you have it.

Two, you only have a 3 or 4 shot capacity with such a short shotgun.

Three, you can't remove it from the rifle and use it seperately since how are you going to hold onto a 12 guage shotgun with no handles?

Now, the shotgun does have uses. It can be used with frangible slugs to breach doors, fire tear gas, and such. However, as an alternate weapon in the scenario described, I'd prefer the pistol grip. Less noise, recoil, better penetration, and other reasons.

[Fear]

Ask and google provides, presenting a solution:
<a href="http://www.lesbaer.com/compf.html" target="_blank">Here</a>
but I dont think its beefy enought to hold up to firing stress for our purposes. Cast might be to brittle, I would recomend milling, but thats a lot more expensive and time consuming.

----------------------------
Fixed URL - Zaibatsu

<small>[ December 04, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]</small>

[chemwarrior]

Hey, NBK, I was thinking about the light in the handle idea of yours. Im pretty certain that it wouldnt be too costly or too difficult to add simple time actuated LED into the handle. All you would have to do is place a simple button on the handle somewhere that when pressed down, doesnt allow electricity to flow through it. When dropped however, the circuit is completed and then with the aid of a 555 timer and a capacitor, you could easily make it so th at it takes a few seconds to start flashing, then after the initial flash, it could flash repeatedly like twice a second. And since the all the components are cheep, and for the most part very durable, it could last a long time.

(Sorry about posting this so long after you came up with the idea.)

<small>[ December 04, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: chemwarrior ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Actually, you could use the rail system that's so popular nowadays to attach the pistol to the rifle.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/GlockGrip.jpg" alt=" - " />

The pistol grip rail adaptor attaches to the bottom rail of the rifle, and then the pistol is attached by it's rail to the adaptor. The pistols slide is free to move, and the pistol itself is secured to the adaptor by a spring loaded detent that has to be pushed to release the pistol.

:D

As for glow-grips, I've decided that the best place for the insert would be the front of the grip, where your finger wrap around it.

I'm assuming that the pistol would have regular tritium night sights, so you'd be able to spot it if you're anywhere to the rear of it. Whereas, from the front of it, you wouldn't be able to see the gun without having the insert somewhere visible from the front.

Obviously, wherever it is placed can't be visible to an enemy, and the simplist way to keep it covered when in use is to have your hand covering it. :)

Also, there's a lot of new GITD pigments that'll last for DAYS on just a few minutes exposure to light, so I'd likely go with a GITD insert, rather than a traser, simply because it'd be much easier to make without any import hassles.

The traser style would be restricted to police/military (and me, of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )because it's easier to get import permissions for products that aren't for use by the general (idiot) public.

[Agent Blak]

I am not trying to nit pick here but you pistol Diagram appears to lack support.

I would say the best way to mount it would envolve mountining to the frame of the pistol the pistol. These envolve Drilling and reaming for the pins or drilling and tapping it you wish to use ready rod for the job.

You say that you would want to be able to give the weapon to another. in that case I would suggest a pin desgin.

As for the legality of a system of this sort...lol. The feds would be just tickled pink as you tried to register it and all they could picture in there mind is an urban Ruby Ridge or Waco... that goes bad for them.

[nbk2000]

There'd be nothing illegal about it at all. After all, it'd be a simple piece of machined aluminum. If you can legally own both components, then joining them together wouldn't make them illegal.

As for support, the polymer frame of a Glock is very strong. More than adequate for using as a rifle grip. The important thing would be holding the pistol in place in the grip mount. That's easily done since there'd be a simple detent lock that'd mate up with the locking notch all pictacany rail systems have. :)

[Zerstoren Sie]

Well.. first post, hopefully not too lame.

I've been kicking this idea around for while now. Basically, it's a way to convert a semi-auto into an auto without trigger assembly modification. If anyone has a full auto paintball gun, you may notice how it functions. A seloniod is being controlled by a small circuit board with a set of dip switches, these switches control the rate of fire and burst. Well, the idea is to take the electronics out of the paintball gun and use the selonoid in place of your finger on your semi-auto. The electronics could be fastened to the butt of the gun. All one would need is a power source and some way to mount the seloniod. Firing the gun would then be done through the small tact switch which came from the paintball gun. If one needed the gun to be normal again, they would simply take the electronics off. One interesting thing about the electronics in the painball guns is that they can be configured to do 3 and 6 shot burst, full auto, semi-auto, and the rate of fire can be modified. One problem i see though with this design is the relative strength of the seloniod. It may not have enough power to pull the trigger. The solution is fairly simple, in theory. Simply remove that seloniod and put in a relay, then connect the output of the relay to a bigger seloniod and of course a power source. Well, generally that's about it. Hopefully this could be something of use. Also, if anyone has tried this, i'd love to hear the results.

[A43tg37]

Zerstoren,

I'm not 100% sure about this, but wouldn't it be quite illegal (in the U.S. anyhow) to use a device like that on a trigger, as it could fire more than one shot at time while the switch was being held down (and I know the switch isn't actually the trigger per se, but ATF won't care...they've already decided that a Gatling gun-modification for a 10-22 is fine if hand cranked, but illegal if the manual cranking power is replaced by a motor that's allowed to make the crank fire more than one shot for each time the switch is held closed) and that would qualify it as a "full auto"? All of the current "trigger switches" either use a cam, reciprocating spring-type device, or a Gatling-style crank, but they all at least move your finger back and forth so only one shot is ostensibly fired with each pull of the trigger, and so have been ruled legal. Of course, this may be legal in other countries, and for all of us here who don't give a crap about the gun laws anyway, it's a fairly good idea. Oh, and wouldn't it have to be a pretty heavy duty solenoid to be able to perform this function effectively? Most of the solendoids I've seen are designed to move the rod in them back and forth a few times a second at most, and I know that if a relay is wired to open and close itself rapidly for anything more than a short period of time, it drastically cuts it's life span. Since the solenoid will be doing essentially the same thing, wouldn't this also have to be considered when designing this trigger switch (i.e. some provision for fairly easy replacement of the solenoid)?

[Zerstoren Sie]

Well, strangely enough, I was not aware of the idea of placing a cam on a crank for a firing mechanism. That should of been something that I should have considered before coming up with an idea so complex. Though I do think that using elecronics does have its advantages. As for a low life on relays, a solid state relay could be used, although a bit more expensive, it would last. As for the soleniod, one would have to search to find a good one for the job. One of my concerns with the soleniod was whether it would be able to pull the trigger with enough power. A solution might be to make your own. I was thinking that if you were to put a magnet on the piston, in a way it wouldn't get damgaged, of course. It might be possible to increase the displacement, and also the speed at which it can act.
Oh, and as for legal issues, I am aware about the laws in the U.S. against such a device. Because of such laws, I am not planning to build one. It's just an idea I've had in my head for a while.

[rjche]

All my mission critical items have an infrared only scotchlight reflector strip glued on them so they shine only when viewed by my ir illuminator on the NV scope. I have lost stuff before this was adopted by it dropping off my person, never to be found again in daylight.

The way to make IR only bicycle reflector tape which is usually white, buy both red and green clear gift wrapping cellophane. Glue both a red and a green layer over the scotch tape and visible light will no longer reflect but IR will.

If you get red scotch tape you only need to add the green layer.

With this I can scan at night for anything I dropped with the NV and its illuminator. Keys for example light up like a bicycle reflector to the NV, but are not visible to a powerful spotlight. You must put reflectors on several sides so you can see it no matter how it falls. for many objects a thin (1/8 inch) strip wrapped around the thing will leave part of the tape visible at all positions.

Yes other people scanning their NV with ir illuminator will see the tape, but not if its in the pocket where it belongs. When out and using it your own NV will show anybody using ir illuminator before you unzip your tape markered equipment. He who shines an IR illuminator looks to other NV like a flashlight does to ordinary vision. Not something to do in a tactical situation, but for the rough travel to get to the tactical place, equipment lost can mean serious problems if not found. Lost a handi talky once when going through brush, because its strap hook failed and brush peeled it off without my noticing.

Big disaster. No way to tell at what point of the mile trip it came off, and leaves were deep so its weight had partially burried it when found. Fortunately it was ON, meaning I could use another radio, and my electronic ears to listen for the tone sent to it and was able to locate it after a few hours.

That had to be done before the lost radio's battery went down, so it was a high priority thing. My radios now all have an IR reflector strip on them.

[nbk2000]

I've been noticing the trend of suppressors being featured quite often in most of the piggie oriented gun magazines.

The purpose of using suppressors in the police context is to prevent hearing loss from gunshot noise and flash blindness in dark rooms.

To my way of thinking, the very opposite of this would be useful for the person facing the cops, inside a building.

While piggies are running around sans hearing protection, you've got on your electronic earmuffs, and electro-optical shutter goggles (AKA electronic welding googles)

By deliberately altering your firearm to use a powder load that will produce maximum muzzle flash, and short barrels to increase muzzle blast, you've effectively turned your firearm into a multi-shot stun grenade.

:)

Every pull of the trigger would pound the piggies senses with 170+ decibels of noise, plus hundreds of lumens of light (as well as the lead), while your senses are protected.

This could also be an advantage when attacking someone dangerous, since you'll be firing the first shot anyways, so why not combine the advantage of a surprise attack with a sense-stunning blast? This would not only disorient the target, making his counter-attack less likely/successful, but would have the added benefit of disorienting anyone else nearby who you may not be aware of.

[nbk2000]

Seems some thieving bastards stole my idea for a (literal) pistol grip! :mad:

Yet another example of "It takes money to make money". :(

[Jacks Complete]

That's an air taser, isn't it? Where did you find the picture?

Also, the trigger cam thing is surely exactly what the "Hellfire" trigger conversion was for? They were all the rage many years ago, but I never managed to get one. Sure must be a heck of a lot of them kicking about the place over there.

[xyz]

The underbarrel mounting of pistols/small smgs/small shotguns has been around for a few years at least. I saw a picture of an M11/9 mounted underneath a Striker 12 on the site of a US gunsmith a few years back.

There's also a company that makes an underbarrel 12 gauge for the AR platform, I can't remember if it's pump or semi but it feeds from box magazines. I should be able to get the specifics of it if anyone wants.

[nbk2000]

There have been 'pistol' grip forends for many years, but only in the last year or two has anyone made a grip that uses a REAL pistol. Oh, and since I posted the idea in '00 or '01, if someone else made them "a few years ago", that could be 5 years ago and still be AFTER me. :p

JC:

Yes, that's an X26 TASER, mounted on the rifle. I found the pic on the /k/ board at www.4chan.org

[Ropik]

xyz: If you think about the same weapon as me, then it is pump action with a RIS mount for attaching. Masterkey it is called IIRC.
NBK: How would you produce maximum muzzle flash? Powdered metals additive would probably send pressure through the roof(or barrel), if there isn't some metal which I'm not aware of, and the pressure curve would be also much sharper, producing less-than-optimal bullet flight characterictics, but if inside a building, it is probably ceasing to matter as much as in open space. But, I saw some patent years ago, which decribed gun with an attached camera. I think there was some note that "ammo with powder charge altered for maximum muzzle flash, substituting photobulb, may be used for nigttime" or something similar. I cannot recall if there was some link or name of other patent or comp or whatever...
BTW, it is good EWF is back agin. I was afraid these eDefence punks shut it for good...

[bipolar]

You can produce a large muzzle blast by either getting a barrel for your gun with a built in compensator/muzzle brake or one that screws on the a threaded barrel. Glocks come in compensated models. I would probably rather just throw a small flash bang instead.

[Jacks Complete]

A slow powder from a short barrel will give an impressive flash. The flip side is a fast powder round from a long barrel, which reduces the flash as the powder is completely burned and cooled a lot before the bullet exits.

[THAT Dude]

Unforunately the "pistol grip" would probably be classed as a short barreld rifle
due to the butstock on the rifle. But you could just use a standard pistol grip on your rifle if you wanted to stay legal. If you had a Ruger Rimfire Autoloading Pistol style handgun mounting would be simplified.

[-=HeX=-]

Sorry to bring up am old topic, however I have tried I few of there gun improvements on a couple of my mates airsoft guns and they have been more than pleased. I also have an idea for a simple gun improvement.

I first tested the traser in the pistol grip trick. I machined I machined into the pistol grip of a glock 18c blowback gas powered AEG. (It has a gas powered blowback operating system and batteries.)

My friend tried it out in the dark during a game and found out that he could see it at 20 meters he he dropped it. Ha also said that when he was holding it it never compromised him once.

Next I, mounted an underslung picatinny rail on a G-36 AEG. I then put a rail on the top of the glock as part of a custom rig thingy (Ill take a photo of it) and used it to connect it to the rifles rail. This was the pistol grip concept.

In a CQB scenario ha was again pleased. When his rifle ran out he was able to keep shooting until he was out of the shit. It also improved stability of aim over long ranges. *Tbc*