caseless ammunition

[zeocrash]

I was looking through my newly bought copy of the janes gun reference book (soon to be uploaded to ftp) and came across this
<img src="http://remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11b.gif" alt=" - " />
the heckler and koch g11. this revolutionary gun, fires caseless ammunition (effectivly a bullet embedded in a block of explosive)
I was wondering if anyone knew anymore bout this gun or any other caseless weapons.

[Ezekiel Kane]

Hmm.. found some information on this 'caseless ammunition'

Plenty of analytical data about the G11
<a href="http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/caseless.html" target="_blank">http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/caseless.html</a>

G11 Specifications and diagram
<a href="http://www.shadowsource.org/dragon/g11.html" target="_blank">http://www.shadowsource.org/dragon/g11.html</a>

Apparently the HK G11 is quite an innovation to the world of firearms...

[A43tg37]

Looks like quite an innovation, true...but caseless cartridges per se aren't anything new. What about the Daisy V/L? It fired a .22 caseless round and was out twenty or thirty years ago. They occasionally come up for sale on Gunsamerica.com, but aren't even made anymore. I'll scan a page out of Gun Trader's Guide that has a picture and some info on the V/L and post it to the FTP, as I can't seem to find much online. Also, what about the Voere VEC 91.? Some of its caseless 5.7x26 ammo and details on it can be found at <a href="http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2300/2384.htm" target="_blank">www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2300/2384.htm</a>

[chemwarrior]

Well, from talking to my grandfather, the main reason the military decided against its use is because it had one of the highest 'backfire' ratings of any of the firearms used at the time. Also, despite being caseless, the gun itself is heavier than any other firearm of equal size- WITHOUT ammunition.

[green beret]

The new steyr ACR fires sabots (I think) in 5.56mm, I havent got a picture to upload, but I cant remeber, if it has caseless ammo, wait, I think it does. I like the look of that G11, but is it reliable? I myself am a big fan of the F88 Austeyr, and the new steyr ACR, its a very nice looking weapon, and as far as I know, its quite lightweight.

[chemwarrior]

The newest ones might be, but the originals were heavy as hell!

[carbonated]

This doesn't fit with the G11, but I was thinking of caseless ammunition after reading a section of nbk's .pdf on smokeless powder.

In one example I think SP was added to EtOH and after the material turned stringy and then plasticy, the material was removed from the EtOH and allowed to dry. Some of the "plastic SP" was molded onto the end of bullets and fired without negative effects. This is all from memory, by the way.

So, perhaps it is possible to place a bullet primer in the "plastic SP" on the back of a bullet (bought or ball bearing) and allow the plastic SP to dry completly. While this may be poor ammunition, it takes into account that the user may not have access to commercial ammunition.

[I_am_the_Black_one]

I know its a bit off topic but where can I get the pdf?
If anyone is interested I have a few AUS army manuls detailing the use and break down of AUG STYERS

More on topic I think there was a M-60 like machine gun that fired caseless rounds. It came out umm.. 97 98 ? its a bit hazy I think it was called a UMPO.. I forget the rest has any one heard of this weapon? Il have a look for it tomorrow

........................
"The Kewls cower in fear of the Naturelus Bornus Killus" (I do to!!)

<small>[ March 14, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: I_am_the_Black_one ]</small>

[Voyager]

Green Beret:

The Steyr ACR wasn't *quite* caseless.

"The Steyr ACR is built around a specially designed cartridge of nominal caliber of 5.56mm. This cartridge has simple, cylindrically shaped plastic case. The fleschette, or dart, is totally enclosed in the case. Fleschette diameter is about 1.5 mm (.06 inch), lenght is about 41 mm (1.6 inch), weight 0.66 gramm (10 grains). Fleschette is partially enclosed into discarding sabot, and leaves the muzzle at impressive velocity of 1450 meters per second (4750 fps), still retaining velocity of 910 m/s (2980 fps) at the range of 600 meters. The plastic case had no rim or extracting groove, and priming compound is located annually at the inside wall of the case."

A43tg37:

H&K chased the government business, where Voere chased the civilian market.

The G-11 is preety much discontinued, as I understand it.

Voere is still selling caseless rifles -- but I don't know the process to import one into the United States from Austria.

Voere rifles are online at: http://www.voere.de/waffentechnik.htm

Note: The site is in German

[Stormhelm]

There is a good deal of info on the G11 at the HKPRO website: http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm

It deals with various prototypes and different designs of the ammo.

Be sure to check out the LMG11 - the caseless MG.

[charger]

Would it be possible to make your own caseless ammunition? I have seen pyrodex pellets for sale and wondered about combining them with a primer and bullet in one package. They might need reshaping or resizing to work if it is indeed possible.

[JoeJablomy]

As one whose perspective on propellant combustion behavior comes from really basic rocketry, I can tell you that your biggest problem with caseless is going to be consistent burning, at least if you use a monolithic round and not a full-combustible-case with normal powder in it.
It might be that you could make a specially perforated single propellant grain, but it would be really complicated.
The 25mm GAU-7, I think, used basically nitro-paper mache' -they consolidated a bunch of raw nitrated cellulose fibers into a cylinder and put the projectile in the front. The GAU-7 was cancelled for some fatal flaws I've never heard enumerated, but I suspect that one of them would be that getting the NC fibers to be of consistent quality and packing density, porosity, etc. for consistent internal ballistics was near to impossible.
One interesting technique I've seen -not applied to caseless, though- is consolidation. The propellant is compressed into a single block.
Just spent half an hour looking for my saved copy of that reference, but I can't even find it on the internet. The idea was, a rocket assisted 120mm projectile extended all the way back to the base of the case, so they compressed the propellant into a tube with a bunch of lengthwise perforations that fit between the projectile and the case. This is especially interesting because it apparently used perforated sticks and pressed them solid. It was ignited in two stages, one of which was a few lengths of rapid deflagrating cord that ran through the longitudinal perforations.
Anyway, I think the idea was that the propellant comes unstuck and burns to propel the projectile, so theoretically it could be used with small arms stuff for caseless ammo.
As for combustible cases, I can offer this: Soviet combustible cases are made of TNT impregnated paper, and while I haven’t heard exactly what goes into the American ones, I suspect they are PVN based. Incidentally, firefox sells PVA. I would probably use some kind of oxidizer and resin impregnated paper myself, although you have to be careful because the best oxidizers are obviously corrosive. Perhaps someone could dream of a test that would show the behavior of energetic impregnated paper under gun pressures; that could tell us if oxidizers are needed to consume the paper anyway.
I guess as long as the paper becomes ash and the ash doesn’t melt, it should be OK.
One other note on priming: Voere ammo uses a simple patch or electrosensitive priming compound, while some schemes, I think GAU-7 and maybe G11, use plastic primers that get blown out the muzzle. Electric primers also use Pb styphnate, according to some army group that’s looking for a lead free alternative, so perhaps a spot of that in a slightly recessed cavity, coated with foil electrodes or some conductive, carbon-filled glaze, could serve.
And although everyone here already knows, the really big problem with caseless guns is sealing the chamber. This is why the big combustible case rounds have case stubs. Major artillery uses bagged propellant, so the guns have to have sealing systems: 16” guns have something called a ‘mushroom’ on the front of the breech block that seals the chamber, although I haven’t heard what you find on sliding block 155’s etc. Obviously, if you can’t get a 100% effective chamber seal you have to use ammo that won’t light off by accident, like by getting flashed a few times. Of course, it also has to resist cookoff

[Spartin13]

A few years ago i did some reading concering deployment of a caseless battle rifle by at the time West German military. the projectal was to be smaller than the 223. from my understanding it was tested and ready for deployment. it was stopped when the Berlin Wall came down. Germany at the time felt that the money to have the new weopons system built,deployed and training would be better used in reunification of Germany. thus is from what i understand is why it is not in current use. hope this helps