Financial Depression Preparedness?

[generallisimo]

With Bear Sterns getting bailed out by the "stock" holders of the FED for 2 dollars a share on a stock that was trading well over 100 bills coupled with todays fluctuating gold price after the IMF dumped a bunch of gold.


Outside of being able to buy gold and take delivery of that gold what are some solid strategies to live relatively comfortably during an economic depression?

I am interested in not only "survival" type strategies but also what worked for Americans during The Great Depression, other historical examples, and other related solutions.

Where information is concerned any format is acceptable.

[Enkidu]

I don't believe that the US will be in a 'depression' anytime soon. Now, we are in the midst of a recession, but a recession is much less a severe an economic slump than a depression; recessions are part of the natural boom-and-bust business cycle. From what my job-hunting college friends are telling me, the only people who are having trouble finding 'good' jobs are the liberal arts people... the natural science and engineering folks (like me) are having absolutely no trouble.

I don't have any advice about your investment portfolio, as I don't have enough money for investments. (I am naught but a poor college student.)

[generallisimo]

Enkidu thanks for commenting back. To further refine my needs; I am not looking to create a investment portfolio of traditional financial instruments.

Adding to my above statements. I had the opportunity to speak with a fella who lived through the Great Depression. His father took his life during that time due to the loss of the family farm. It was good to pick his brain just for the few moments however the conviction in which he commented "back then people would not have killed you....nowadays they will" is what stuck with me from the conversation.


To that end I am looking for people who can relate similar conversation with our great grand fathers and mothers, ideas of what worked, perceived advantages and the sort.

[Mr Science]

Precious metals are a great thing to invest in (after all, they ARE precious metals....not paper (as in money)). While gold is a good investment, silver is probably a better idea. Not only is it considerably cheaper, but percentage wise, I believe it has been increasing at a faster rate. So basically, if you invested $5000 in 1 oz gold bars (considerably fewer), and $5000 in 1 oz silver bars (many more), you would have a greater increase with silver.

[generallisimo]

I attempted to post this comment earlier...Maybe the quick comment is buggy too.


I am not necessarily interested in developing a portfolio of traditional financial instruments.

I am interested in proven strategies of preparedness. Possibly historic commentary. Government contingency plans. Information outlining the dynamic of a society gripped by a financial depression.

I had an interesting conversation with a former Intel officer tonight. They spoke of coordinating weapons buy back programs years in advance before destabilization of specific countries. The reason I mention this is that I am interested in any triggering events signs that may signal a more serious condition.

[Bert]

If you're going to buy precious metals, you will want some of it in small weights to be of use in everyday transactions. You can buy 90% Silver coinage in the US, which will be of small enough value so as to prevent the need for chopping up gold bars to make change! (Pieces of eight, anyone?!)

http://the-moneychanger.com/commandments.phtml

Other than that, I'd advise living far enough from any city so that a starving man could not walk to your place from the city in less than 2 days, and planting a garden.

[Enkidu]

During the Y2K scare, I read about someone who was planning to burn an old car in front of his house and board up all of his windows. He was planning for widespread rioting, and he figured the looters would pass by his house if it looked like it had already been looted. Really, I think that that's overkill. If the rioting/looting ever got that bad, I'd (hope to) relocate to a rural area at one of my friend's homesteads.

All that I can say is that 'general preparedness' and a lot of 12ga shells are your best bet.

[generallisimo]

I am basing my understanding on what I observed during Katrina.

People took from others what they did not have. Neighbors became your battle buddy if not your enemy.

If bread costs 10 bucks a loaf. And stores refuse to accept Federal subsidy cards. There are going to be a bunch of hungry folks.

I am alarmed at how people keep pointing to precious metals as the only way. Although the small coinage idea is good.

Someone has to know a repository of information. With that said I found this interesting although more academic than practical small book.

http://www.tarpley.net/survbook.htm

I have a copy, if anyone is interested in it pm me.

[LuzRD]

Generallisimo there is an extensive FTP used by several of the members here. Why not offer to add it to the FTP if it is not already there?
Being new you may not realize that, but being new it may make a good impression as well.

On topic, as it's been said plant a garden (or at least have the means to do so when it's needed), arm yourself, "general preparedness", get a generator (obviously to be used sparingly). Basically anything you can do to reduce depending on others.

[plutobound]

I found this interesting although more academic than practical small book.

http://www.tarpley.net/survbook.htm

I have a copy, if anyone is interested in it pm me.

If you think this is useful information, why not scan the book, upload to rapidshare (or some other file sharing service) and provide a link?

This whole forum is about the free dissemination of knowledge

[generallisimo]

Generallisimo there is an extensive FTP used by several of the members here. Why not offer to add it to the FTP if it is not already there?
Being new you may not realize that, but being new it may make a good impression as well.


I would if I could. I have requested permission to the FTP without success.

I have been limited to thanking people via PM.

I have a load of gunsite, AGI, Bear Grylls, Ray Mears, ect on RapidShare.com but I cannot post in the proper sections and do not want to post here and violate a rule of posting in the wrong area.

However because plutobound requested it I believe it would be appropriate to share the Tarpley link here. Those with access feel free to add it to the FTP.

http://rapidshare.com/files/100720645/Tarpley_s__surviving__the_cataclysm.rar

[generallisimo]

A fantastic list found on a blog comment.



100 Items to Disappear First

1. Generators (Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy…target of thieves; maintenance etc.)
2. Water Filters/Purifiers
3. Portable Toilets
4. Seasoned Firewood. Wood takes about 6 - 12 months to become dried, for home uses.
5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First Choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!)
6. Coleman Fuel. Impossible to stockpile too much.
7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots.
8. Hand-can openers, & hand egg beaters, whisks.
9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugar
10. Rice - Beans - Wheat
11. Vegetable Oil (for cooking) Without it food burns/must be boiled etc.,)
12. Charcoal, Lighter Fluid (Will become scarce suddenly)
13. Water Containers (Urgent Item to obtain.) Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY - note - food grade if for drinking.
16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur.
17. Survival Guide Book.
18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.)
19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula. ointments/aspirin, etc.
20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry)
21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene)
22. Vitamins
23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item)
24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products.
25. Thermal underwear (Tops & Bottoms)
26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets, Wedges (also, honing oil)
27. Aluminum Foil Reg. & Heavy Duty (Great Cooking and Barter Item)
28. Gasoline Containers (Plastic & Metal)
29. Garbage Bags (Impossible To Have Too Many).
30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, Paper Towels
31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake Liquid every 3 to 4 months)
32. Garden Seeds (Non-Hybrid) (A MUST)
33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST)
34. Coleman’s Pump Repair Kit
35. Tuna Fish (in oil)
36. Fire Extinguishers (or..large box of Baking Soda in every room)
37. First aid kits
38. Batteries (all sizes…buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates)
39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies
40. Big Dogs (and plenty of dog food)
41. Flour, yeast & salt
42. Matches. {”Strike Anywhere” preferred.) Boxed, wooden matches will go first
43. Writing paper/pads/pencils, solar calculators
44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime.)
45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts
46. Flashlights/LIGHTSTICKS & torches, “No. 76 Dietz” Lanterns
47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (jot down ideas, feelings, experience; Historic Times)
48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water, transporting - if with wheels)
49. Men’s Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers, etc
50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient)
51. Fishing supplies/tools
52. Mosquito coils/repellent, sprays/creams
53. Duct Tape
54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes
55. Candles
56. Laundry Detergent (liquid)
57. Backpacks, Duffel Bags
58. Garden tools & supplies
59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies
60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc.
61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite)
62. Canning supplies, (Jars/lids/wax)
63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel
64. Bicycles…Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc
65. Sleeping Bags & blankets/pillows/mats
66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered)
67. Board Games, Cards, Dice
68. d-con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer
69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets
70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks)
71. Baby wipes, oils, waterless & Antibacterial soap (saves a lot of water)
72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc.
73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave)
74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels)
75. Soysauce, vinegar, bullions/gravy/soupbase
76. Reading glasses
77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers)
78. “Survival-in-a-Can”
79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens
80. Boy Scout Handbook, / also Leaders Catalog
81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO)
82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky
83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts
84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras)
85. Lumber (all types)
86. Wagons & carts (for transport to and from)
87. Cots & Inflatable mattress’s
88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc.
89. Lantern Hangers
90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws,, nuts & bolts
91. Teas
92. Coffee
93. Cigarettes
94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc,)
95. Paraffin wax
96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.
97. Chewing gum/candies
98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing)
99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs
100. Goats/chickens

From a Sarajevo War Survivor:
Experiencing horrible things that can happen in a war - death of parents and
friends, hunger and malnutrition, endless freezing cold, fear, sniper attacks.

1. Stockpiling helps. but you never no how long trouble will last, so locate
near renewable food sources.
2. Living near a well with a manual pump is like being in Eden.
3. After awhile, even gold can lose its luster. But there is no luxury in war
quite like toilet paper. Its surplus value is greater than gold’s.
4. If you had to go without one utility, lose electricity - it’s the easiest to
do without (unless you’re in a very nice climate with no need for heat.)
5. Canned foods are awesome, especially if their contents are tasty without
heating. One of the best things to stockpile is canned gravy - it makes a lot of
the dry unappetizing things you find to eat in war somewhat edible. Only needs
enough heat to “warm”, not to cook. It’s cheap too, especially if you buy it in
bulk.
6. Bring some books - escapist ones like romance or mysteries become more
valuable as the war continues. Sure, it’s great to have a lot of survival
guides, but you’ll figure most of that out on your own anyway - trust me, you’ll
have a lot of time on your hands.
7. The feeling that you’re human can fade pretty fast. I can’t tell you how many
people I knew who would have traded a much needed meal for just a little bit of
toothpaste, rouge, soap or cologne. Not much point in fighting if you have to
lose your humanity. These things are morale-builders like nothing else.
8. Slow burning candles and matches, matches, matches

[iHME]

Thank you for uploading the book.

[Hirudinea]

Just a thought, but has anyone ever considered the advantages of a major depression? I mean most of the major political upheavels do come from economic disasters, and since I'm sure I can say that nobody here is all that happy with the present political situation, a depression could bring that system down, hey its a thought.

[Bugger]

I have a load of gunsite, AGI, Bear Grylls, Ray Mears, ect on RapidShare.com but I cannot post in the proper sections and do not want to post here and violate a rule of posting in the wrong area.
http://rapidshare.com/files/100720645/Tarpley_s__surviving__the_cataclysm.rar
Thanks for the Tarpley book, You may PM or email me the Rapidshare links for the gunsite, AGI, Bear Grylls, Ray Mears, etc. material, please.

[generallisimo]

Just a thought, but has anyone ever considered the advantages of a major depression? I mean most of the major political upheavels do come from economic disasters, and since I'm sure I can say that nobody here is all that happy with the present political situation, a depression could bring that system down, hey its a thought.


Absolutely. Unfortunately I don't believe the true perpetrators would be prosecuted ala Martha Stewart offer up someone who the public knows and knows is rich and they will think that insider trading is an isolated event.

Not all that happy that our government refuses to follow the US Constitution and all the Brittany Spears fans are ok with it.

[Hirudinea]

Absolutely. Unfortunately I don't believe the true perpetrators would be prosecuted ala Martha Stewart offer up someone who the public knows and knows is rich and they will think that insider trading is an isolated event.

They'ed need more than one scapegoat for a depression.

Not all that happy that our government refuses to follow the US Constitution and all the Brittany Spears fans are ok with it.

Well when the Brittany fans have to pick through garbage cans for food then mabye they'll want to know how to fix the country, and people like us should be there.

[Hang-Man]

There’s a pretty good book by Peter Schiff called "Crash Proof" that's recent and offers some good insight into the current and upcoming economic situation and how we got here. Its latter chapters are geared more towards people with money to invest and profiting from the recession than simply surviving it, but it is interesting none the less.

[generallisimo]

Hang-Man that looks like a terrific selection. While unsuccessfully looking for a .pdf of the aforementioned title I stumbled upon this one.

Financial Armageddon: Protecting Your Future from Four Impending Catastrophes
By Michael J. Panzner


* Publisher: Kaplan Business
* Number Of Pages: 240
* Publication Date: 2007-03-06
* ISBN-10 / ASIN: 141959608X
* ISBN-13 / EAN: 9781419596087
* Binding: Hardcover



Book Description:

According to Michael Panzner, the US is less than two years away from """"financial Armageddon."""" When the stock market bubble burst in March 2000, the collapse that followed wiped out over two-thirds of the value of the technology-laden Nasdaq Index and decimated the hopes and dreams of millions of Americans.

Now, imagine not one, but four such disasters looming on the horizon. Four key elements--Debt, Derivatives, Government Guarantees, and the Retirement system--are quickly unraveling, and because they are so intricately connected, there will be an unremitting domino effect. With time running out, this is a disaster-in-the-making on which every American must be informed so they can protect themselves, their families, and their economic well-being before it's too late.

http://rapidshare.com/files/74579906/141959608X.rar


If you have access to Crash Proof, would you please share it?

[Cho!]

Outside of my normal survival/disaster/whatever plans, like others I may put a bit of money in a precious metal of sorts. I am not self employed and have no debts, so whilst a failing economy could result in my job loss, I am confident that I won't be living in a tent city. Thanks to the above poster for putting up that list.

Cheers.

[generallisimo]

Hang-Man, thank you for putting me onto Peter Schiff.

In the future use the private message system for one line replies such as thank you and I agree etc. These types of posts can quickly "clutter up" a forum.
Bacon46

[Vitalis]

It's good to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I don't know about the precious metals though, yea silver is still doable price-wise, but unless you have a lot of money to throw around, gold is out. It's too damn expensive now, a few years ago it would have been a great investment.

People have called me crazy for thinking this, but I think the U.S. economy is going straight down the fucking toilet.

Kurt Saxon's page has a section on survival foods ( I wouldn't trust the guy giving me advice on explosives as he blew off his fingers, but the food ideas seem ok).

Fuck it, I'm raising catfish in barrels.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The logic here is that as Gas prices rise, all things that move via gas burning engine will increase in price. Most everything comes by truck at some point so that prices will rise commensurate with need for transportation of the item. Also think UPS, FEDEX & DHS - all things that need distribution.....rise in price.

Some material is time sensitive or some food spoils; these items will possibly spin out of control, price-wise. But the answer here is not to shut down Gasoline altogether, the switch must be gradual or the economy is hit from that end as well.

Saudi Arabia is the largest buyer of US armaments in the world. The USA is Saudi Arabia's largest buyer of oil. But the price is set via OPEC and that is a large group of nations, many of whom hate the US quite a bit. What's more the oil industry is (& has been) insulated from many US laws for almost a generation or two: they do what the fuck they please in their little boats & country clubs.

[Hirudinea]

The logic here is that as Gas prices rise, all things that move via gas burning engine will increase in price.But the answer here is not to shut down Gasoline altogether, the switch must be gradual or the economy is hit from that end as well.

That should have been started years ago.

What's more the oil industry is (& has been) insulated from many US laws for almost a generation or two: they do what the fuck they please in their little boats & country clubs.

Exactly, the oil industry is essentially unregulated, and they will make sure the economy stays dependent on oil, hey its buissness, so don't expect any change until its too late.

[megalomania]

As the cost of certain goods increases, consumers always switch to cheaper alternatives to offset rising prices. That is a basic tenement of economics. Using cheaper goods like no-name brand toilet paper and cereal can only stretch the dollar so far. People also cut out purchases of brand name cloths and shoes, new cars, high priced electronics, furniture, new homes, etc.

Not having credit card debt, not having a mortgage so high you can barely afford it, and not getting locked in to ridiculously high car payments is perhaps the single greatest way Americans can sustain financial independence. I know this is easier said than done, but there is no great need for a $300,000 home and two $30,000 cars in the garage when you only make less than $40,000 a year.

The banks make getting credit and loans easy on purpose to lure the average unwary citizen into the trap of indentured servitude. The financial slave collar goes on so easily, but it is a bitch to remove.

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

Mega is absolutely correct. We can live without almost everything we currently think we need in order to survive.

I have both the luck and the pleasure of still having two living grandparents who lived through the Great Depression. We have discussed this topic at length on numerous occasions. And while this strategy won't work for many, I am lucky enough that I can still employee the strategy they used.

Move back to where I grew up. I have a large support base (extended family - Parents, Siblings, Aunts, Uncles, cousins, etc.) who all live in close proximity. It is mainly a rural community. Large tracts of land are owned and can either be farmed relatively quickly, or are currently being farmed.

So the plan is to buy a few cattle, put them on the 80 acres we currently own, let one of my brothers watch them, and continue to work in a large urban area as long as I can. Buy more livestock as I can. If/When the economy collapses, move back home, and live off of the farm, and run off anyone that's not family that comes around.

It may take some consolidation of resources (land, houses, barns, equipment, etc.) with family members, but should provide clothes, food and shelter at the least.

[Vitalis]

A lot of us could survive without all the luxury items we take for granted now. We don't need HD TVs to survive.

Many people wouldn't make it though in a really bad situation. I'm speaking of the trucks not running to deliver the food to the grocery stores, power going out, things of that nature. We are not the same society that the people who lived through the Great Depression were, we are spoiled.

The cities would erupt in violence and looting, and a lot of the people there would perish.

At least knowing the basics of survival skills, it couldn't hurt and one day may save you.

[Hirudinea]

The banks make getting credit and loans easy on purpose to lure the average unwary citizen into the trap of indentured servitude. The financial slave collar goes on so easily, but it is a bitch to remove.

If you lend a person $100 and they give you back $110 dollars, you've gotten $10 for nothing, its the perfect business, why wouldn't banks want everybody to give them money for nothing?

[Alexires]

I just had a look at gasoline prices in the US.

While yes, they have vastly increased since the days of $2.20 a gallon, you guys are still living in a fantasy land. Here in Australia, the equivalent price is about $5.60 a gallon (as opposed to the highest price I saw of $3.60).

Certainly basic commodities will start to rise in price, but is that such a bad thing? Perhaps the sheeple will start to be shocked out of their sheltered existance? I doubt the power is going to go out and food is going to suddenly stop coming, but it could happen quickly (a few weeks, maybe a month).

A rise in basic commodities will cause people to start cutting down on the shit they don't need. You don't need a fucking Ipod, HDTV, 380 cubic inch V8's to survive.

Ride a pushbike, scooter or motorbike (if you must be manly). Stop watching TV and take up gardening. Buy some chickens. Not only do they provide eggs, they are cute too... in a curry.

To get back to generallisimo's questions, I pose this to you. Whether economic collapse/ invasion/ government take over/virus outbreak/etc. happens, are the results going to be different? Your basic actions will be to get away from the looting, the unwashed masses, and attempt to survive.

Gold is alright. Silver is alright. But things like livestock, tools, weapons, household drugs, first aid gear will be worth infinitely more. Gold and Silver relies on society rebuilding. Until that happens, they are about as useful as their weight in rocks.

Stock up on nails, hammers, saws, the basics. You don't need to go throw away modern conveniences, but be prepared to live without them.

I think that is the greatest preperation you can have - The ability to use modern conveniences when they are around, but to see them as an added bonus and be able to go without them.

[Vitalis]

We do need to prepare. The gas prices Alexires speaks of are right on, they are much higher in other countries. In the U.S. though we have built up our whole lives in the recent past on cheap gasoline. I remember back in 1998 I could get gasoline for .97 a gallon. Now it's $3.50/gallon in my area and rising fast. The food is already more expensive, and again, rising fast.

As the prices skyrocket, it will hit us harder, because almost nobody is ready for $5/ gallon gasoline and the huge increase in food prices that will come from that.

The U.S. dollar is essentially worthless, and the world is waking up to that fact. Couple that with the fact that we import most of what we need to sustain our standard of living, and we are in deep trouble.

[iHME]

Couple that with the fact that we import most of what we need to sustain our standard of living, and we are in deep trouble.

And considering that a gallon of the cheapest variety (95 octane) costs 5,44 eur for a gallon (1,439 eur/l), that's a whooping 8,54 dollars for one gallon around here and rising! I still hope that I can afford to have a car (and drive with it) when I get my license.

Our house can use wood as a heat source in our central heating system and we are now using a automated wood pellet system (its at least 1/3 cheaper than oil). We also have a small food garden and space to have more (we usually enlarge it once a year). We have a reasonably large front yard (about 500m2) considering that we live in a place comparable to American suburbs.

No we don't have huge amounts of money, we just got lucky and bought this house of a old widow who moved to a "senior house" or what ever it is called and we got it for cheap. But now the gowermnet with EU are driving local food production down. I'd personally rather be dependant on a farmer 100km away than a Polish or Ukraine farmer +1000km away. Just think what happens when they fuck something up and suddenly you don't have any food to import. Oh poor you.


About national reserves, I don't know about our local ones but we have a 1 month oil buffer and one of the only oil refineries around here. But I think we have better food reserves then the USA who originally had food reserves to feed it's population for a year. It is said to be somewhere around one and a half
pounds of food per citizen, do you feel safe and secure? Then better stock up :)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

You fellows have brought up some really great points. And they are geared toward specifics which is fantastic but many have not gone deep enough (IMO). The concept could branch in two directions, of course.....They are: if society breaks down or if it just degenerates.

If it breaks down completely a generator will be more than just important: it will be mandatory if you're going to live in a manner better than the 18th Century. You may actually consider more than one generator or one that works on diesel, etc. One portable, one stationary. The idea could branch out to any power generation such as a windmill.

If society does not totally go to shit, then, the choices will become much more complex. Simple things like medicine will be very much in demand. A hoarding of Mexican (or MUCH better, Canadian) pharmaceuticals could provide both barter and needed materials that would leave things like gold being equal to rocks (as was said!).

The thought process should compare both scenarios and have dynamics for both. Such as ammo would be worth a great deal but ammo components would be possibly worth more due to their flexibility (& initial cost factor). The same comparison would be canned food and MRE's. Or fixed knives and razor/box cutters.....& on and on.

The other issue which I believe needs addressing is HOW society would degenerate.... Major societal degeneration begins with a catastrophe as infrastructure works against gradual degeneration for the most part (unless we suddenly have a complete removal of all aspects of policing, etc). Does anyone really believe that a gradual degeneration could take place: as I don't. It would happen in a sudden calamity and perhaps there would be further degeneration AFTERWARD that could be incremental. But society would work quite hard to stop a breakdown if & when something horrible happened.

Let's pretend that two or more things occurred at once. A terror strike and a stock market crash. Or an assassination of a leader & a rationing of petroleum. The societal breakdown comes from the inner city. Rioting occurs there NOT in some rural population base living off some highway. What is that breakdown met with? Strong policing via National Guard or similar. The focus is generally ALWAYS on containment. Even in the worst scenarios, the containment factors are now in place from experience. The riots of yesteryear are lessons that are not lost on civic leaders. Quite frankly, I don't see a breakdown as being an easy thing to factor in modern western society.

[generallisimo]

If it breaks down completely a generator will be more than just important: it will be mandatory if you're going to live in a manner better than the 18th Century. You may actually consider more than one generator or one that works on diesel, etc. One portable, one stationary. The idea could branch out to any power generation such as a windmill.


Those with the access a natural gas generator would be huge. Getting off the grid now could help one prepare.


If society does not totally go to shit, then, the choices will become much more complex. Simple things like medicine will be very much in demand. A hoarding of Mexican (or MUCH better, Canadian) pharmaceuticals could provide both barter and needed materials that would leave things like gold being equal to rocks (as was said!).


Tools, bluejeans, boots, containers, blankets.ect.



Does anyone really believe that a gradual degeneration could take place: as I don't.


I agree it will not be gradual. It will be sudden. However I believe the outcome the supposed fixes that the public will lap up like fresh water will degrade gradually.


It would happen in a sudden calamity and perhaps there would be further degeneration AFTERWARD that could be incremental. But society would work quite hard to stop a breakdown if & when something horrible happened.


Like after Hurricane Katrina?


What is that breakdown met with? Strong policing via National Guard or similar. The focus is generally ALWAYS on containment. I don't see a breakdown as being an easy thing to factor in modern western society.

Containment of people. There are two operating military internment camps in my state alone. Reportedly there are 15 others across the US with Federal Prisoners in them now.

The breakdown will be more along the lines of the breakdown the Palestinians suffer. The water runs...but only when the controllers want it to run.

Now the Fed chief is saying hey we might have a recession. And our leaders want to give the private organization with nameless investors The Federal Reserve more power and control over our economy.

So with the devaluation of the US dollar and extreme stag-flation coming it looks as if the best method is to go back being a hillbilly.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Hurricane Katrina was interesting in that it was a study in what the media does to facilitate even more reaction to an event. I am not saying that the response was anything but poor, but it was made worse by the media reaction. LOCAL facilitation and reaction was terrible!

It is arguable that local actions (or inaction) made the situation much worse. Hurricane Katrina is a very interesting case, indeed. A natural calamity, that there should have been ample for-warning of and planning, preparation, & regimentation - virtually non-existent. It's as if the public thought that the nanny-State mentality worked and waited for mother Government to save them.

[generallisimo]

The actions of the local and federal governments are interesting but not what the media covered as ts inability to be the Nanny.

What I find most interesting is how those who were prepared with food, generators, guns, fresh water, etc. were forced to turn in their firearms without real cause and depending on location many were forced to leave the one sanctuary they had prepared.

I agree many expected the calvary to roll in and suffered because of that idea. But those who were prepared were also targeted as needy individuals when in fact they were not in need of government assistance.

SO....

If we know that in times of distress, (focus on economic) a nation birthed on credit and an upside down idea what a liability is in comparison of an asset, will expect the Nanny State to take over and meet their needs. What does that condition do to alter the dynamic of being the prepared one in such a crisis.

The reason I ask this is because I remember seeing these guys zip tied by police outside of their beautiful mansions in N.O. Their offense was being prepared and protecting their property with their fire arms.

After the police gathered the firearms they moved on leaving these dudes without the means of protection.

[Vitalis]

The nanny state can't help us. We need the economy to collapse as a way to cull the herd of undesirables. Those who planned ahead will survive, those who didn't, fuck em, they deserve to starve.

Just stockpile your chemicals and weapons now along with any other useful items and ride out the coming storm.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The fedgov DID pass a bill that prohibits the confiscation of firearms, lawfully owned (or any other lawfully owned material) from citizens in an emergency. The backlash from that gun-grab was pretty strong. See Library of Congress: Katrina, legislation in aftermath.

[iHME]

I think that for the first time something shitty is going to happen for real. Now food riots have started to appearing around the world. Theres about 36 countries in some degree of food crisis and it is feared to expand to 33 countries, according to World Bank Group (WBG). Egypt and India have restricted the exportation of rice to have enough for their own population. The price of food is climbing in modern nations also, but we don't use 70 to 80 percent like Africans and some Asian countries of our income to food so we are covered for higher prices. But what does happen when countries which depend on importation? In the next few years we might see wars over food. I think that I'll buy some canned food for a at least weeks reserve. If for nothing else it will be a investment that grows in value over time :rolleyes: , as the food prices probably keep on rising.

[Alexires]

iHME - Canned food is good for a while, but remember to stock up on the grain as well so that you have the ability to actually support yourself. It would be good to be able to keep fertilized chicken eggs dormant.

I don't think you can after a brief search, but at the very least, keep some grain around to grow some plants, as well as vegetable seeds to grow.

Ideally, you would have a patch of land big enough to have a large garden around to support yourself and whoever you decide to bring with you. I would personally plant some blackberries or other kind of "weed" or hard to kill fruit producer out of the way (not on your land if it is small). That way, you have SOMETHING to eat during the late spring/early summer. Also, they produce a lot of pollen that can be used if you have bees as well.

I'm fortunate as there are a lot of fruit orchards around my area, and it is far from the city, so if the SHTF and I stay where I am, there will be some food hanging around :rolleyes:.

Basically, you want something that you can just leave there and have it still be there when you have to move there (if you aren't already living there).

This is one of those topics that have a lot of "if" in it.

To summarise my rambling:
If you live there, cultivate your garden.

If you do not live there and are planning to move there if the SHTF or as a kind of holiday get away, plant something that doesn't need you around to take care of it. Wild fruit is good. Fruit trees are good as well.

Either way, stock up on non-perishable things (rotate cans if you can) and do NOT expect the fedgov to fix things or there to be a semblance of society in the near future.

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

[Hirudinea]

Look up WWII publications on "Victory Gardens", publications on Preserving and Canning and raising Rabbits, they're all good to supplement your food stores.

[EOD]

Food and the ability to produce more is one of the basic survival skills needed to survive a long term crisis. Having at least a few weeks of food and water are essential to survive a short term crisis. Having the ability to defend oneself is an essential survival principal for any crisis. Solar, wind, etc. power generation could be useful but if not used wisely could also create a huge target for the desperate. Gold and silver are always a good thing to have. 1/10th ounce gold coins are useful and still affordable for most. Silver is also affordable. Neither has ever been worth nothing. Both will be useful for bartering just as they have been for thousands of years. I believe we are headed for another depression and with the Fed continuing to print billions out of thin air to prop up failing financial organizations the bottom will hit probably sooner than later. You can't wait until things start going really bad.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The issue with gold today is that it is very close to maintaining a four figure level (1000+). If & when a severe financial down turn comes OR a SHTF scenario, precious metals will most likely get laughed at as a hold over from the very thing that ruined the stability of one's regional economy. There may even be a backlash against dealing with precious metals.

If I were to barter with an object let it be utilitarian such as a knife, flashlight, radio, or batteries. They would cost little NOW, be worth a Hell of a lot later, & could be maintained. A carton of batteries from a large crate would be worth quite a bit. A box of Sony Pll radios now would cost about $20 per unit but be worth quite a bit in an emergency, as would flashlights, etc.

You can't do much with gold....but you could do all sorts of things with a flashlight that lights up a room.

[-=HeX=-]

Yes, that which holds value now till most certainly be worthless then. Money will be worth less than toilet paper, as it is nasty and scratchy :D and is useless as a fuel. Banknotes do not burn good.

Alcohol, batteries, ammunition, knives, tents, guns, torches, gasoline, and food will be the new currency. Cash, cards, gold, and such shall be useless. Tinned food and Hexamine fuel shall be invaluable as they serve many purposes. The tin con be used as a grenade care and the Hexamine to make HMTD or RDX. The prepared chemist shall be king.

[Hirudinea]

As to what to sell in bad times don't forget smokes, if you live near an indian reservation you can get them cheap, seal them in an air tight container and then in the future when people are jonesing for a coffin nail you'll be able to make them pay through the nose, also consider setting up a still.

[megalomania]

I always wondered why people don't just grow their own tobacco. People spend so much time and effort growing weed that growing tobacco can't be that much more difficult. I broached to someone I know that smokes a considerable amount of cigarettes, apparently he considered this angle, but said it was too hard to dry it, cure it, cut it etc.

Such things take skill of course, but this is no more complicated than growing a good vegetable garden, or canning your own preserves, yet people do that all the time.

My point is, having the skills to grow your own food, having seed stockpiles, making your own compost, etc. can really help you out if need be to stretch what little funds you may have left. Ultimately food and water are our most important needs, being able to satisfy those needs can help you survive.

I heard that 60% of all the food production in England during WWII was supplied by "victory gardens." These are small gardens using every possible patch of earth you can get in cities and towns like window planters, backyard gardens, frontyard gardens, patio gardens, balcony gardens... Most of the farmers were off at war, transportation became expensive, most resources were going into the war effort, so people stretched their rations by growing their own produce where they lived.

I heard the price of rice went up 25% this week, and there is now global rationing except for the US (so far).

You can't beat having your own fresh produce, and it's all organic if you don't use pesticides.

I would love to have a big garden, but I don't like vegetables that much, and I don't want to spend the time weeding. If the worst happens and food becomes scarce, I along with a lot of other people will have to grow my own. My meager garden skills would mean a very hungry first winter for me.

Edit: I have not read most of the posts in this thread yet, I just saw Hirudinea's post about victory gardens. Great minds think alike I suppose :)

[Barnacles]

I heard that Wal-Mart was rationing rice at its stores now. this could be in Canada only but I doubt that. If its true it most likely includes the US, that is what I am guessing though.

[Hirudinea]

I always wondered why people don't just grow their own tobacco. I broached to someone I know that smokes he said it was too hard to dry it, cure it, cut it etc.

Such things take skill, but this is no more complicated than canning your own preserves, people do that all the time.

Some people do it, but most don't, the vast majority of people get everything they want at the store ready made and don't have the time or inclination to learn the skills, which mean when a colapse comes those people who do have the skills will be able to leverage them for their own benifit.

Having the skills to grow your own food, having seed stockpiles, making your own compost, etc. can really help you out if need be to stretch what little funds you may have left.

Yep, and if you can produce surplus, well you'll have even more funds, or if your smart, barter, which isn't affected by inflation.

I heard that 60% of all the food production in England during WWII was supplied by "victory gardens." These are small gardens using every possible patch of earth you can get in cities and towns like window planters, backyard gardens, frontyard gardens, patio gardens, balcony gardens...

They plowed up public parks in London and other cities, and grew food in the heart of the city.


Most of the farmers were off at war, transportation became expensive, most resources were going into the war effort, so people stretched their rations by growing their own produce where they lived.

Women were also conscripted into the "Land Army" to assist on planting, tending and harvesting the crops on farms, not that that has much to do with this thread, but it makes you wonder what we'ed do nowadays with women in the army. ;)

You can't beat having your own fresh produce, and it's all organic if you don't use pesticides.

Plus it tastes better fresh off the vine then it ever could from the Supermarket.

If the worst happens and food becomes scarce, I along with a lot of other people will have to grow my own. My meager garden skills would mean a very hungry first winter for me.

It makes me wonder if when times get hard some, less industrious, people will raid the gardens of those who do plant them, or have people become so used to our modern society that they wouldn't even think they could get food anywhere else besides the store?

I have not read most of the posts in this thread yet, I just saw Hirudinea's post about victory gardens. Great minds think alike I suppose.

So how did we have the same idea? (That was a self-depricating crack I hope you realize. :) )

[Kaydon]

I don't see things getting too awful bad, but I could just be being optimistic. I'm relatively prepared if they do.


Plus it tastes better fresh off the vine then it ever could from the Supermarket.

I've actually had people disagree with that! Idiots.

It makes me wonder if when times get hard some, less industrious, people will raid the gardens of those who do plant them, or have people become so used to our modern society that they wouldn't even think they could get food anywhere else besides the store?

I am almost positive that a very large number of people will absolutely freak out and think they can not get food any other way.

[EOD]

The issue with gold today is that it is very close to maintaining a four figure level (1000+). If & when a severe financial down turn comes OR a SHTF scenario, precious metals will most likely get laughed at as a hold over from the very thing that ruined the stability of one's regional economy. There may even be a backlash against dealing with precious metals.

If I were to barter with an object let it be utilitarian such as a knife, flashlight, radio, or batteries. They would cost little NOW, be worth a Hell of a lot later, & could be maintained. A carton of batteries from a large crate would be worth quite a bit. A box of Sony Pll radios now would cost about $20 per unit but be worth quite a bit in an emergency, as would flashlights, etc.

You can't do much with gold....but you could do all sorts of things with a flashlight that lights up a room.


Why would you believe this? Gold has never been valueless and never will. There are a bunch of people and many sites that feel the exact opposite of your views. Gold ans silver will most likely drastically increase in price if our ecenomy collapses. Gold and silver will be accepted as barter. There are amny people who have prepared and can/do grow more food than they can eat. These same people probably have also stored many of the esentials they will need. As has been the case since it was found Gold is easy to transport, much more so than a wagon full of batteries, etc. Gold will srill be the true currency of the world. If we had stayed on the Gold standard we wouldn't be having the difficulty we are now with the Fiat currency. Gold and silver have always held or increased value during times of war and economic collapse.

http://cmi-gold-silver.com/small-survival-gold-silver-coins.html

Coin silver for the worst-case scenario
Investors who buy silver and gold for survival purposes fear the worst. Those fears include the Federal Reserve printing so many dollars that the dollar will become worthless, which is the history of all paper currencies not redeemable in gold or silver. Fear of a financial meltdown, which would close banks as in Argentina and Paraguay in 2002, is another.

Argentineans and Paraguayans who had to foresight to bail out of the banking systems and convert their assets to gold or coin silver were protected. Not only did banks close, but also when they reopened depositors were limited in the amount of money they could withdraw. Meanwhile, the Argentinean peso and the Paraguayan guarani sank in value. Shortly after those crises, Brazil defaulted on its international debt and its paper currency, the real, sank.

Those are the kinds of situations that investors who buy coin silver and small gold coins for survival purposes want to protect against. In doing so, these investors buy silver and gold in forms that can be used for money or to barter for goods and services.

[Alexires]

Why would you believe this? Gold has never been valueless and never will. There are a bunch of people and many sites that feel the exact opposite of your views.

Because as far as metals go, gold is about as useless as they come. It's too soft to do anything with, so you can't make tools, weapons or anything else useful. In the case of social collapse, there will be very few people that can afford to have anything to do with gold and silver. Yes, there will be people that cling to it as an icon of ages past, but when people are starving because they can't farm, or are freezing because they have no tools, food and tools will become worth more than gold. A chicken could buy you a families help in ploughing your field. Some boards, a handful of nails and a hammer is worth the world to a man that is freezing in the cold because he cannot repair his house.

Perhaps gold will never be worthless, but I would rather have tools, knowledge and the means to survive, than to rely on others to value a metal that has no practical use.

If you have left over money, sure, buy some silver and gold, but I'd be making sure I had ALL the basics and not so basics I can think of before I do so.

Who cares what everyone else thinks? Use the brain you were born with to think about things as opposed to relying on a bunch of other people and sites to tell you what's right. A million kewls and a hundred texts will tell you to make C4 out of peanut butter and KClO4 but that doesn't make it right does it?

[monkeyboy]

Anybody here a fan of Square foot gardening?
http://www.amazon.com/Square-Foot-Gardening-Garden-Space/dp/1579548563/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209775806&sr=8-2
I have the book, sometime soon I'll try & scan it.
The basic concept is a real breakthrough. Why plant 50' or a 100' of each type of plant? Everybody does that. Then at harvest time, everybody is trying to get rid of bushels of the same stuff.

Brief paraphrase:
Figure out how much you're going to use. Plant a only a few seeds, then every so often add a few more, so you get a staggered harvest, of just a few plants. Much less time to take care of, too. He claims that a person can feed their self off 1 or 2 4'X4' beds. Talks about "building" the soil, too. Lots of good info.

If anybody already has a scanned copy, I'd love a copy. Then when people want to borrow my copy, I can just give them a pdf.

Tobacco info
Instructions:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AA260
http://www.backfortytobacco.com/
seeds:
http://www.seedman.com/Tobacco.htm
Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM3lMyU8k8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4XQTwTCY-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3YAMwHnT0
Doesn't look that hard.
Didn't realize the leaves were that big.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Since this thread is all about "Financial Depression Preparedness" & we all have heartfelt opinions regarding same I would like to offer a prediction which I would hope someone would remember or at least ponder as the future unfolds....

If gasoline reaches well over $4 a gallon in the USA, the "trickle down" effect will result in a serious Depression (the financial type, I know many people will also get the Blues too)....Not a Recession, mind you, but a full blown serious problem! All time sensitive freight, perishables, & household goods moves by truck at one point or another. The rising cost of gas & diesel will push the cost of nearly everything one uses nearly everyday to higher levels (that includes FOOD especially!). The result will (obviously) be a commensurate shift to paying for movement, not the commodity & prices will not be able to keep pace; the average worker will be trying to work for transportation costs.

Eventually the costs will outstrip the value and the Dollar, Pound, & Euro will mean nothing. - WHEN this happens (as it did in the past) PANIC will be the first response, as most people have their savings in a format that will be directly affected by a vicious devaluation. When Stocks become meaningless, investors turn to other financial products & the very essence of the economy becomes turned on it's head.

The biggest challenge facing Western leaders is NOT foreign policy but energy policy & I'm fearful that they haven't a clue....Thus a Financial Depression is almost assured at the point of the price of fuel being beyond the means of personal production.

[Alexires]

Certainly Charles, that is a very grave problem facing us in the near future. When one starts to look for solutions to the problem of rising fuel cost, we uncover even more problems.

Let's say we start to burn ethanol as opposed to petrol. Ethanol, while being a renewable resource, comes from fermenting grain. This means that suddenly grain that would otherwise be used for food is being used for fuel, thus increasing food prices again as more and more land is devoted to grain and more and more grain is being used for fuel.

Rather a vicious cycle. Unless something miraculous happens in the next couple of years, we are in the shit well and truly.

[generallisimo]

Anybody here a fan of Square foot gardening?
http://www.amazon.com/Square-Foot-Gardening-Garden-Space/dp/1579548563/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209775806&sr=8-2
I have the book, sometime soon I'll try & scan it.


Absolutely I would love to get my hands on that book.

I have been surprised by "heavy hitters" input on this thread started by a new guy like me. It seems to present a problem that many want to help solve. I like the ambiguous nature of the original question because of where the thread has stretched to include total breakdown in society and the tightening of budgets.

With that said I have read quite a bit on the subject including the American Depression and the aftermath. The comment about raising rabbits made me look into the details and learn how rabbit is the "best" meat going and has the highest feed:meat ratio of all meats.

It also got me looking into gardening. That led me to SPIN farming. Small Plot Intensive farming. To the point where I convinced a friend to plow up his yard and plant a crop accordingly.

It has also led me to long term storing flour and other food stuffs.

I hope more folks add more information to this thread and that more people add more links. I wanted to express my appreciation for the members of this forum and for the administrators for opening it back up to new guys like myself.

[Alexires]

That is what we like to hear, generallisimo! We like to hear that someone has thought about this and, as opposed to treating it like a simple thought experiment, has actually started to prepare and is taking the advice of The Forum.

I too would like to hear more about SPIN farming. While I have some land, there is nothing better than to minimise input to maximise output.... that's what we are about after all. In the mean time, have a look at this site (http://journeytoforever.org/garden_sqft.html) which contains tips and descriptions of small fertile gardens. This site (http://pbriscoe.com/2007/05/22/howto-create-a-square-foot-garden) also has hints and tips on square foot gardening, following the author through his sq.ft gardening experience.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

....Ethanol, while being a renewable resource, comes from fermenting grain. This means that suddenly grain that would otherwise be used for food is being used for fuel, thus increasing food prices again as more and more land is devoted to grain and more and more grain is being used for fuel.


This is actually a well trodden path, spoken of time and again by many in the media. However, it's not accurate in it's exclusivity. Ethanol does not require grain....but almost any sugar! The "grain" idea had come from those who want to supplement farming interests but when you think about it ethanol could be produced from almost anything that would ferment (it's not for drinking, but fuel!) - Think of "Pruno" made in prisons... One could make ethanol from garbage waste material. There may be many other reasons why the public is sold on the need for grain (or corn more often) to make ethanol.

We could unquestionably make ethanol from other materials. We could make hydrogen even easier. Those who know me, know I am not a conspiracy-oriented individual. But I think there are many who want to suppress the alternative fuel concepts with innuendo of "just staying the course".....which will end up with a financial tragedy. I know that I myself have bought into it from time to time.

There are always alternatives to most everything but yet with the concepts of energy manufacture, I believe that so much money exists in the status quo that we have been sold on the futility of really moving in another direction.

I even notice that in marketing there is a subtle element of pathetic timidity in cars that employ anything but "big iron" gas power. That automobiles that use another source of fuel will never give the "feel & power" of a "muscle car". What IF there was such a bad son of a bitch? Would the buying public want such a thing? I believe that so much effective marketing has been employed, that it would not sell.

Where I live many people drive trucks. The mid-size & larger truck drinks gas. But yet people buy them. They can't afford to go anywhere but the idea of buying a little reliable Jap truck (or even the larger Asian trucks for that matter) would make them cringe....THAT'S EFFECTIVE MARKETING! When you suffer because you believe you won't be happy with an alternative, even if it's logical; that's a force to be reckoned with.

-=We are not a market driven economy....we are a marketing driven economy!=-

[monkeyboy]

There may be many other reasons why the public is sold on the need for grain (or corn more often) to make ethanol.
Somewhere around here I have book put out by Mother Earth News back in the '70s. Makes the claim that combining alcohol & gasoline is a really stupid idea. When you do, you need 190-195 proof. If you run off straight alcohol, they claim you can get away with 130-135 proof. Which can be produced a whole lot cheaper...

[Kaydon]

Where I live many people drive trucks. The mid-size & larger truck drinks gas. But yet people buy them. They can't afford to go anywhere but the idea of buying a little reliable Jap truck (or even the larger Asian trucks for that matter) would make them cringe....THAT'S EFFECTIVE MARKETING! When you suffer because you believe you won't be happy with an alternative, even if it's logical; that's a force to be reckoned with.

-=We are not a market driven economy....we are a marketing driven economy!=-

Same thing where I live.

I have 3 small half-ton pickups, and 2 full-size pickups.

Gas prices have yet to affect my wallet.

[Alexires]

While I certainly agree with what you are saying Charles, we are talking about money (essentially here) and what would be easier? To collect vegetable scraps, wood pulp and other sugar containing materials and attempt to ferment them, or to simply buy hundreds of tonnes of grain and ferment that?

We both know what SHOULD be done.

How hard would it be to have floating solar panels on the ocean that crack water into H2 which is then pumped to shore like an oil rig, or to perhaps have solar panels on the roof of your house that crack water into H2 and hold it in a lithium hydride matrix where you simply fill your car up at night, and all for the price of water....

But as you have said, there has been too much money invested in current technology for them to give that away yet. It's like the gambler that figures he has hundreds of dollars in the pot, so what is another $50 even though he is betting on a pair of twos.

[generallisimo]

With that said...does this book on using oxy-hydrogen for fuel make sense.

http://rapidshare.com/files/113122057/Run_a_car_on_water.zip

[ETCS (Ret)]

Charles said (#56 bove): "Those who know me, know I am not a conspiracy-oriented individual."

Charles, would you elaborate on that please? I can't imagine what that might mean.


Generallisimo,

The book you've referenced advocates the construction of an Oxy-Hydrogen generator that is excessively complex.

Far better alternatives are available completely free of charge (Public Domain):

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/ (Look under Booster Construction Plans)

http://www.rexresearch.com/1index.htm (A wealth of possibilities - you'll spend a lot of time here!)

http://panaceauniversity.org/

The beneficial effects of boosting an automobile engine with Hydroxy gas are well established. Do some research first before you decide to build a generator and you'll not be tempted to buy one from some of the unscrupulous sources. Save your hard earned financial instruments!

[Hirudinea]

Ethanol does not require grain....but almost any sugar! The "grain" idea had come from those who want to supplement farming interests but when you think about it ethanol could be produced from almost anything that would ferment (it's not for drinking, but fuel!) There may be many other reasons why the public is sold on the need for grain (or corn more often) to make ethanol.

The Farm Lobby in the U.S. is very powerful and well entrenched, and making ethanol from corn is just another way to subidise farmers for growing grain. (And I'm not down on farmers, just market distroting subdises.)

We could unquestionably make ethanol from other materials. We could make hydrogen even easier.;/quote]

We could make methane as easy as shit! Imagine how much potential energy is wasted in sewage treatment plants every day!

[quote] Those who know me, know I am not a conspiracy-oriented individual. But I think there are many who want to suppress the alternative fuel concepts with innuendo of "just staying the course".....which will end up with a financial tragedy. I know that I myself have bought into it from time to time.

Its just human nature.

I even notice that in marketing there is a subtle element of pathetic timidity in cars that employ anything but "big iron" gas power. That automobiles that use another source of fuel will never give the "feel & power" of a "muscle car". What IF there was such a bad son of a bitch? Would the buying public want such a thing? I believe that so much effective marketing has been employed, that it would not sell.

http://www.teslamotors.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car

Where I live many people drive trucks. The mid-size & larger truck drinks gas. But yet people buy them. They can't afford to go anywhere but the idea of buying a little reliable Jap truck (or even the larger Asian trucks for that matter) would make them cringe....THAT'S EFFECTIVE MARKETING! When you suffer because you believe you won't be happy with an alternative, even if it's logical; that's a force to be reckoned with.

-=We are not a market driven economy....we are a marketing driven economy!=-

We just have to popularise the saying "Big car, small dick", and you'll see cars shrink fast enough! :D

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Out of a sense of respect I replied to some of you via PM and what's more I don't want to hijack this thread. Many of you have supplanted very good methods of dealing with this issue. If indeed this IS a "marketing driven economy" as I (& quite a few others believe) then the concept of reversing the process may be a damn good technique.

Personally I was impressed with the marketing message of "Big car - Little dick" Just the mere mention of the size of a phallus has a crushing impact on some (I can't imagine why....). I've just recently seen it in action. My Heavens; what power that issue has! Just the simple statement of the EXISTENCE of a penis smaller than others causes all sorts of reactive anxiety.

Just like "The X-Files"; I think the answers are out there. But if whomever is elected President does NOT deal with the energy issue as a National priority, we will suffer a Depression that will rival or sweep aside the Crash of 1929. What marketable object does NOT get transported by a gas or diesel powered vehicle in it's process from creation to sale? I don't know about most of you but with gas now at $3.50 & more even getting to appointments is an exercise is financial processing. A Company car & gas is now a seriously major perk & adds a great deal to one's wage.

In an analogy, the biggest issue with "getting guns off the streets of America" is that there are so many out there.....Similarity exists with automobiles! The energy issue complexity (as I see it) is that all these gasoline-oriented vehicles are already in use. The quandary is what mechanism would be used to CONVERT to alternatives, not build a new one from the ground up. The conversion process is actually the cornerstone as I see it.

Should someone find a CONVERSION concept.....THAT would not only be the "future Henry Ford" but would make that person of company one of the wealthiest on earth. And THIS issue would be where any possible "conspiracy" agenda may have actual validity......There are many interests to maintain the Status Quo. Such a conversion would threaten the interests of Big Oil. Thus the Country Clubs would be rife with woe & angst. Perhaps even independent of one another, many interests want to keep alive the wastage and interaction we now have.

[Bugger]

The easiest conversion of all those gasoline-powered vehicles would be with pressure tanks to run on natural gas, which is usually much cheaper than liquid petroleum fractions, or, where available, sewage or landfill gas which is also mostly methane. An alternative using basically the same tanks and equipment would be hydrogen, produced electrolytically from mains electricity or better still solar or wind power, although different materials would have to be used for the connecting hoses and pipework because of the greater diffusivity of hydrogen. In the 1930s Depression and in Europe during the war, cars were also converted to make coal gas or wood gas from coal or wood, and store it on-board, the combustible product in it being mostly carbon monoxide with a smaller amount of hydrogen, and possibly formaldehyde.

More expensively, the engines in gasoline-powered cars could be replaced with electric motors powered from batteries. Electricity generation from sources other than oil would have to be increased to cover this. But, for pure electrics (not hybrid vehicles), the batteries would have to have a range of at least 100 km between recharges, and not require replacing every 3 years or so of average use which even the best present deep-cycle lead-acid batteries need. Besides, it may create an excessive demand for any rare metals needed to make the batteries.

Diesel trains and ships will have to be made to run on vegetable oils ("biodiesel"), or else replaced with steam engines running on coal or wood, or with electric trains powered from overhead wires (which many in Europe and Japan already are).

[Hirudinea]

In an analogy, the biggest issue with "getting guns off the streets of America" is that there are so many out there.....Similarity exists with automobiles! The energy issue complexity (as I see it) is that all these gasoline-oriented vehicles are already in use. The quandary is what mechanism would be used to CONVERT to alternatives, not build a new one from the ground up. The conversion process is actually the cornerstone as I see it.

The one problem with that analogy is that while a well maintained gun can last for over 50 years (eg. Moison-Nagants sold surplus from WWII) but most cars will be rusted our wrecks in 20 years, so if we stop producing gasoline only internal combustion engine cars NOW in 20 years 95% would be gone, but conversion is still a good idea.

The easiest conversion of all those gasoline-powered vehicles would be with pressure tanks to run on natural gas, which is usually much cheaper than liquid petroleum fractions, or, where available, sewage or landfill gas which is also mostly methane.

Many cabs in Toronto run on natural gas, and there used to be a programme to help pay for vehicle conversions from the government, but not now. Wish I had converted. This and other types on conversion could tide us over until the present generation of cars rusts out.