Flare gun conversion to fire 38 special pistol rounds

[mike-hunt]

I recently came across this product " pirates plague" on sale online at http://www.captainforhire.com/products.htm
It converts a 12 gage or 25 mm flare gun to fire 38 special pistol rounds .I don't think the 12G version would be a good idea as it is plastic. The 25 mm is steal.

According to this article both were tested and resulted in catastrophic failure. Although only the Orion brand was tested. http://www.machinegun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=599&Itemid=2
The photos show them failing in the same place in all four tests so maybe reinforcing them in this place would make them safer . I purchased a surplus 26.5mm German manufactured one as the Germans are known for over engineering so I hope I will not lose a hand.

It is legal to import flare guns into Australia and properly most other countries as they are a peace of safety equipment . The inserts could be classed as a barrel making them illegal to import. Being made of aluminum and not resembling any gun part I know of they should get through customs without a problem. Mine arrived safely and quickly.

An alternative to buying the inserts costly at U.S. $95 is to tern them on a lathe they could be chambered to fit any available pistol ammo and would be more reliable in something like stainless steel.

It would be easy to build a silencer similar to the one on Luttys home page inside of the large 25mm barrel (see his plans for .22 silenced pistol) his page also lists various barrel sizes .

Other possibilities could be loading blanks to use gun as a launcher for some type of improvised grenade or to launch a dart or grappling hook. Or perhaps making a shot gun pistol. The barrel could be reinforced by fitting a second peace of tube over the outside of the barrel.

[ChippedHammer]

http://www.keepshooting.com/militarysurplus/collectibles/polish-flare-signal-gun.htm
http://www.keepshooting.com/militarysurplus/collectibles/flare_gun_german.htm

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/flaregunsasquatch.htm

Sounds interesting for a innocent looking single shot pistol.

[shady mutha]

I have looked everywhere for those flair guns but no go in Aust from what I can tell. It seems we use rocket and handheld flairs, I bought a packet of 4 lot long ago from the marine store. You get 2 orange smoke and 1 rocket and 1 lovely flair that spews the brightest light/flames I have ever seen for around 2 minutes, a barrel of laughs.
When its comes to single shot weapon pipe is the way to go IMHO.

[a3990918]

German LP2 26.5mm Signal Pistol

http://www.e-gunparts.com/images/adz/813020.jpg

Manufactured by Geco in the 1960s for the German military. Features a 6" barrel, stamped steel frame and brown plastic grips. FFL is not required for purchase. Flap holster is made from OD rubberized canvas with belt loop, shoulder strap, five cartridge holders and front pouch.

Signal Pistol, Excellent to Like New Condition w/Flap Holster. $44.05

Signal Pistol, Very Good Condition Less Flap Holster. $33.05

Numrich Arms

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=813010&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

With these being stamped steel, they should stand up to the rigors of handgun ammo and not break apart like the Orion POS.

Something to consider. Turn a sub-caliber adaptor but use a piece of perforated barrel blank, or salvaged barrel, fitted with a bushing at the front end. When slipping in the chamber pack steel wool around the barrel between the adaptor body and bushing. Works as an integral silencer. Also by using a chambered barrel blank you don't have to ream and can get for any caliber you want (ie. .32,.38, 9mm, .44-40 etc).

You could also encase the adaptor and silencer part in a steel tube to make a 1 piece, silenced adaptor.

[phrankinsteyn]

Here's where you can find a few more flare guns, U$A though.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/search/search.asp?r=Page%3A+%2FDefault.asp+KW+Box&s=SEARCH&a=search&k=flare+gun

[Mr Science]

(Semi-Related)

Realize those 12GA flare pistols are only rated for flares and capsicum rounds, and for a reason.

There was a video on youtube (I cannot find it), where a man loaded a flare pistol with buckshot, and remotely fired it; the shot blew apart the gun. Honestly, if one was to make a pistol sized 12GA, it would be best to simply look at the dimensions for the plastic flare variant, and built it in a machine shop. It would be wise to construct it out of the heaviest materials you can obtain, just to compensate for the recoil.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qF-4QkBj3l8

Watch this video, and observe the recoil of someone shooting an SBS, with two hands. Now image that power (and recoil) in a package about a third of that size. Such a weapon is possible, but the recoil and muzzle flash would be completely stupefying.

[a3990918]

(Semi-Related)
There was a video on youtube (I cannot find it), where a man loaded a flare pistol with buckshot, and remotely fired it; the shot blew apart the gun. .

Hi Sherlock, yes I recognized your address,:D was the pistol in the vid that blew apart one of the metal ones or the later plastic ones? I agree, I wouldn't want to fire 1 of these with a 12ga round,(maybe 1 of those 1 3/4" light load rounds) that's why I was advocating the sub-caliber adaptor for a non hi-power pistol caliber round. The only thing that would concern me is the latching mech.

[ChippedHammer]

I wouldn't dream of loading a 12GA round on one, I think a small pistol caliber would be alright though.

[Mr Science]

IIRC, it was a red and white plastic one. Perhaps I should make another thread branching from this subject; I was talking about concealing a potent caliber, while this thread is making an improvised pistol out of a legal flaregun.

If it was machined out of durable materials, I see the 12GA pistol being realistic. For safety reasons (for the shooter), it would be better if there was a longer barrel, maybe 6 inches long, with a barrel shroud/grip on it. That way, the shooter now has something to hold on to, and he has at least some kind of aiming with it. I could imagine one of those 12 GA magnum rounds partially sticking out of the flaregun's original barrel size. :rolleyes:

[Charles Owlen Picket]

From experience, 12-14 inches is about the minimum barrel length that will be needed to burn powder for any real efficiency*. A hand-loaded round with a super fast burning powder like Nitro-100 or Bullseye could possibly get it done in about 10" but you'd still have some wasted flakes (not burned). There would be a loss of about 25-40% in most barrels shorter than 10" especially with large shot.

It's not something that couldn't be dealt with however. Snub-nosed revolvers now have special loadings that increase efficiency. There just needs to be a balance between the TYPE of projectile and the speed of the powder behind it. I think there may be a way to cope with it through unique wadding design.

The reason I mention this is that at that short a unit, the pressure, if the chamber could hold it, would not build up in any barrel (if you can even call 6" a barrel) and may not catastrophically break apart. This is conjecture on my part. I would not want to be gambling my hand on such an enterprise....


*What I mean by this is that there would exist some pressure build up within a defined barrel and not simply propulsion of the initial ignition. An ignition of the shell with no barrel would propel the shot some distance, in & of itself, of course.

[mike-hunt]

I came across this adapter designed to fire riffle rounds from a shotgun. It has a riffled barrel and is available in a 12 Gage to .22LR . It shouldn't be a problem fitting it into a 26.5mm flare pistol like the Geco by inserting it inside a suitable size peace of pipe. being riffled and a smaller caliber it should be much safer and more accurate then the 38 version.
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=881160&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

[ChippedHammer]

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=881160&chrSuperSKU=&MC=YJ

Seems the forum redirector is not working for me.

[a3990918]

It has a riffled barrel and is available in a 12 Gage to .22LR .
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=881160&chrSuperSKU=&MC=

Being made of aluminum I wouldn't expect the rifling to last more than a few rounds Of course for a disposable assasignation weapon, it would probably work well. There are other companies that make sub-caliber adaptors for all kinds of shotgun, rifle and pistol calibers. They are considerably more expensive then these but are made from quality steel and meanyt to last several hundred or even thousands of rounds.

[mike-hunt]

I agree that this weapon would be unsuitable for repeated firing even with a quality adapter and metal 26.5mm flare pistol . Failure would properly happen at the barrel catch or the barrel hinge. the advantages of such a weapon come in looking innocent enough to go unnoticed in somewhere like a car tool box maybe with some flares and with the ammo and adapter kept separately . Also the cost makes it ideal as a single use disposable witch is easy to make and more accurate then most improvised weapons.

I am also having trouble with the redirector on this link. A quick search under chamber adapters converters shotgun on Numrich or other gun sites should come up with these adapters.

[kepiblanc]

Being made of aluminum I wouldn't expect the rifling to last more than a few rounds Of course for a disposable assasignation weapon, it would probably work well. There are other companies that make sub-caliber adaptors for all kinds of shotgun, rifle and pistol calibers. They are considerably more expensive then these but are made from quality steel and meanyt to last several hundred or even thousands of rounds.

Recently, I obtained some shotgun conversion adapters (12 gauge to .38 Special/.357 Magnum) directly from the manufacturer, Dina Arms. (http://store.dinaarms.com/product_p/12ga38357cal.htm - Numrich Gun Parts sells the same exact ones as these.) After getting a 50-round box of .38 Special and .357 Magnum each, I fired off all 100 rounds total through these adapters.

The accuracy of these adapters leave something to be desired, (I had some trouble hitting empty beverage cans that were only 10 and 15 yards away.) but being that the rifled barrel of them is only about an inch long, I was not expecting all that much in that regard.

Extracting the spent cartridge casings from these adapters was not quite so easy. I often had to use a precision screwdriver as a push rod from the muzzle end of the adapter just to unseat each spent cartridge casing enough, so that I then could pull them out completely from the adapter. This is likely because these adapters seem to have been machined with rather tight tolerances - while loading them I noticed that every cartridge had a snug chamber fit, and after firing the cartridge, the casing naturally expanded out some more, wedging it inside the adapter's chamber in the process.

After soaking these adapters within a light bath solution of water and "Simple Green", and then wiping them dry with paper towels inside and out, I made a close inspection of the muzzle ends and the rifling. Everything still seemed to be just as intact as it was before I had fired the first shots, which I would say is not so bad for a low-cost, whole-gun substitute made entirely from machined aluminum. :cool:

I can see myself getting some more of these adapters in the other calibers which are available, such as .44 Magnum, 9mm Luger, and .22 Long Rifle, and the Dina Arms website says that new varieties will be offered soon in both .45 ACP and .45 Colt.

[iHME]

I'm seriously suprised that a insert with some sort of proper rifling have been made from aluminum, and survived. Of course it could have been some good quality aircraft aluminum. But I can see a person at the ER, getting pieces of aluminum picked out of his face.

But apparently it worked and looks like it worked well!

If those aluminum inserts are considered a non-gun one could get them and build a simple pistol around them, .22, 9mm and .38 all what you need!
The more high pressure cartidges of course might burst the insert but a mere .22 would probably not. A plastic flare gun could probably hold up well if a .22 was used. Heck, one could heat up a piece of thick sheet metal and implant it to the plastic flare gun receiver!
It could probably function like a real glock if a 9mm round was used, it would blow in to pieces* ;)

*(urban myth that "plastic" glock's blow up sometimes, like grenades. Note that 80% of a Glock is metal)

[kepiblanc]

I'm seriously suprised that a insert with some sort of proper rifling have been made from aluminum, and survived. Of course it could have been some good quality aircraft aluminum. But I can see a person at the ER, getting pieces of aluminum picked out of his face.

Being that these adapters are designed for use with modern shotguns, which typically have actions, chambers, and barrels made of sturdy steel alloys, rather than something relatively weaker such as a Damascus barrel, I would say that these insert adapters get all the reinforced tensile strength that they would ever need to withstand the heat and pressure generated by the cartridges they are chambered for.

[Killy]

"Catastrophic failure" in testing those Orion flare guns is not so catastrophic regarding the fact that only flare gun stock broke,
but interestingly not the barrel, (that is plastic too,one would imagine barrel exploded to pieces that could hurt you),
so with better stock material like iron it wouldnt be the case.

[PYRO500]

This reminds me of a "dream" I had as a 13 year old or so... I found a flare gun in the trash somewhere without any kind of hammer spring, however the trigger mechanism was intact.... in this dream I had also found a box of 38 special rounds and wrapped them tightly in duct tape before loading into the flare gun (wrapped to tight fit) and a rubber band instead of a hammer spring. I recall that some pesky kids were shooting holes into street signs and sheds in the neighborhood in that same dream before the barrel/frame of their improvised pistol cracked to where it was believed to be unsafe.

[iHME]

Must have been a hell of a fun dream :p

Now day one has to get a bloody firearms license for a damn flare gun here :(

Tough I'd love to have even a plastic orion or similar. One newer knows what can be needed.
In a book I once read one character used a flare gun to start a fire in building, while people ware "freebasing cocaine with ether" the event was referred in the book as "Flare gun party" Must have been a hell of a party :D

[Shark500]

The adapter looks like it would be simple enough to machine out of a more resistant material.

For that matter you could probably make an addapter that runs the full length of the flare gun barrel. This would increase the overall weight of the flare gun and cut down on recoil.

If you had an all metal flare gun you could weld a latch on to the barrel [which has been reduced to a holder of the actual barrel] that hooks onto a pin welded to the frame to ensure against the barrel flipping forward upon discharge of the round.