SHTF Scenario - What would your tactics be

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

I've been thinking about this for a long time, and would like to get other's opinions. Many of us have read the Turner Diaries (and other similar works of fiction) in which our governments turn on the populace; the populace then fights back (to greatly paraphrase). For those that haven't read anything like this, here's the scenario:

It's sometime in the future. After years of gradually usurping and limiting the rights of the citizens, the government has taken the next step; armed crackdown. You are now living in a police state that is very proud of that fact. You, and others like you, have decided to fight back.

Given the above scenario, what tactics and strategies would you use? By this, I'm not talking about backpack survivalists, I'm talking about full on, armed insurrection. And remember, this is all fiction. The scenario is happening in the country of Libertania, which has a population of about 250 million, has wide sea access, is bounded by three other countries by land, large rural tracts of land, but also a large, diverse urban population.

Now, I can see a grass roots type of strategy, where the local police stations and county court houses are targeted in the rural areas. This should be quick and decisive hits using squad type tactics. But here is the kicker in that plan; Libertanian Reserve forces are interspersed throughout the populace, with bases in the local communities. They will be able to mobilize quickly, and will out gun you with true military hardware, including air support. The urban police stations will also be harder to take with a blitzing type of attack due to more officers and better organization.

So, the question becomes, how do you hold the rural areas long enough for the urban areas to dissolve into chaos (or will they). How do you win over support to your cause? How do you communicate effectively and securely? What would your strategies and tactics be to return Libertania to democratic and/or republic rule?


Hitech_Hillbilly

[a3990918]

SWIM would probably try to work out a strike force on 2 fronts operating simultaneously,. The first's main objective would be the immobolization of the local Police & Sheriffs Depts thru the destruction of communications and transportation through black ops with little to no confrontation.

The 2nd force and the larger more heavily armed would strike at local Nat. Guard/Reserve base. Usually just a few armed guards not expecting an attacking force with intent on overtaking the base. Once the 2nd objective is met and SWIMs forces are in control of the weapons, I feel sure the Police would soon fold under threat of over-powering forces.


P.S. Loved the "Turner Diaries"

[-=HeX=-]

In a national insurrection my strategy would be fairly simple. Many independant resistance groups around the country spend a few months arming, making improvised explosive devices (Like the paint can mine, of which I will post schematics later) and Rockets, hell, if hamas can do it we can!

Then, when ready, the groups around the country would autonomously strike the national guard bases and pig stations with truck bombs followed up by shock troops.

The towns and cities would then be mined, fortified, and declared free. Using such tactics the local problems are dealt with.

Then the resistance groups would amalgamate to strike the larger targets. Soon the whole damn country would be declared free.

The resistance against counter attack would be a cross between guerilla warfare and MOUT tactics with mines, telesnipers, PIR triggered EFP's and hit and run attacks on tanks with anti tank weapons to draw then into the line of fire of a paint can mine.

[Shadowmartyr]

I think you are missing something.

First off, there would be no point in killing a bunch of lightly armed national guardsmen, what kind of advantage would this have in the long run? Surely these centers are monitored and routinely checked by higher authorities; my point is, your victory would be futile and it would just attract even more of a military presence in the area.

The point of guerrilla warfare is to use unconventional tactics, terrorism/propaganda/improvised weaponry; no such resistance would last long at all if it just decided to randomly attack an enemy outpost with guns blazing all the while expecting to "liberate" it, how often does this work for insurgents in Iraq? It doesn't, they do more of a hit and run type of attack.

So, unless there is a key influential target at this "outpost" or data that could be retrieved and used, there would be no point in attacking it conventionally like that. To conclude this, unless you just really want the place to be wiped off the map or weakened use the same tactics they do in the real world. First the target is hit with a massive explosive, perhaps a truck bomb, not seconds after different cells will launch mortar and rocket attacks, and then they scatter and leave. After the abrupt end, several snipers will be used to pluck off the first idiots that walk outside and assume its safe, then they leave.

To do any kind of damage without loss of life, these kind of tactics would have to be used.

What makes you think you could coordinate such an effort with that kind of time frame and communicate effectively to boot? If you are up against any kind if superior force, once they know where you are, it will be a simple cleanup, thats why you must attack and leave/hit and run.

You gain support with your cause through propaganda, throw out fliers while nobody is around explaining your cause, leave graffiti, record your attacks on your enemies with a camera and then release it to the public.

Your campaign would continue and repeat from there.

[neetje]

There are several different ways to engage in succesful guerilla warfare. You can ambush the enemy in territories you know better than them, using the terrain to full advantage.

Another way would be to jam every signal passed from high command to the foot soldiers, making them practically blind and easy to ambush.

I'm assuming only the government has heavy weaponry like tanks, planes and helicopters. Destroy whatever oil supply you are able to destroy trying to cripple them, destroy power plants so there is less production of armaments etc. But NEVER try destroying anything which is too heavily guarded.

I think what Sun Tzu said, The enemy may never know our positions, so they have to defend multiple hardpoints etc etc. Keep a low profile, if they don't find you, they will be less concentrated, therefore, much more vulnrable for attack ;)

[Rbick]

The idea of facing an enemy with air superiority is a scary thought. I know this because I have seen it first hand. We were being pinned down by heavy fire from a woodline in Iraq. After returning fire for a few minutes, the two AH-6 "Little Bird" helicopters did a gun run on the tree line w/ dual mounted M-134 miniguns and hellfire rockets. Then the AC-130 gunship opened up with 105mm Howitzers and 40mm cannon fire. No one was left alive, obviously, and it was quite a spectacular firework show. Just a quick search on youtube will show you footage like this from the pilots view. They have infared vision! There is basically no way to hide.

If someone did manage to make it to a building to hide, the building was flattened by the AC-130s, or F-16s if they were available.

With this said, it would be important to limit the time spent fighting and being in the open. Setting mines and traps would be your best bet, and quick but effective ambushes and sabotage operations would probably work. Trying to openly engage a force like that of the US in conventional warfare would be suicidal.

Here is a good video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9JANxFOP2Q) to illustrate my point.

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

All good points. So, hit and run tactics seem like the majority opinion. So, how would you win popular opinion of the populace to your side? How do you get the soldiers to not attack it's own populace?

Hitech_Hillbilly

[mike-hunt]

First of would be preparation the first thing a government would do is to disarm its citizens so large stockpiles of stored weapons would be invaluable.

Hit and run gorilla tactics and sabotage from within by infiltrating government troupes or turning there members to your side would be the best use of resources.

Also proper gander. An underground web site or newspaper could spread stories about how the gorilla forces are helping the local communities by supplying them which medicines food ect. You need the public on your side to hide you in the cites and to recruit from.

[neetje]

First of would be preparation the first thing a government would do is to disarm its citizens so large stockpiles of stored weapons would be invaluable.

I for one know that most countries that disarm their subject usually don't store the weapons, but destroy them. This costs less money than storage, maintenance etc. I doubt that stealing these weapons would be an option...


Winning the popular opinion will be a problem, because people tend to believe whatever the (by then probably controlled) media tells them. The Germans during the end of the second world war, before d-day, still thought they were winning the war because every battle they won had a total news coverage, and the losses were never mentioned or had just a few lines in the papers.

After d-day, they couldn't deny losing any more...

Underground papers are a good way, but you can't go advertising them so they will only reach a select audience...

pirate radio and tv are also possibilities, but again, probably very local and a bit harder to keep underground.

A war against the government is usually a war against the government and their propaganda enslaved subjects. So don't care too much about those subjects, they will only give you trouble.

[Cho!]

I don't think he meant raiding govt stockpiles of seized weapons, but rather hidden stashes belonging to citizens.

[Hirudinea]

If someone did manage to make it to a building to hide, the building was flattened by the AC-130s, or F-16s if they were available.

Actually that can be used to gurrellias advantage, if you pin down a small enemy party in a crowded neighbourhood, the enemy would call in overwhelming firepower on you, but they would probably kill dozens of civilians in the process, and there's no better way to get people pissed off at the government that to have them kill your friends and family, people hate that.

[Rbick]

Yeah they do hate that. But the part where I die along with the poor citizens is where I start to lose interest :D

If you could get access to a Stinger Missile, you could at least try and take out the helicopters. A RPG, AT4, LAW, or 84mm recoiless rifle might work too, but you'd have to be a pretty damn good shot. LOL I can imagine shooting down an apache with an 84mm flachette round :eek:

As for trying to get at the AC-130s, you're pretty much screwed...

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

But the part where I die along with the poor citizens is where I start to lose interest :D

Excellent point, Rbick. That is part of the reason behind my original post. My death is not something I would be looking to run headlong into. I am trying to figure out a better way (truthfully, in theory) of resisting the goons of a police state.

The guerrilla tactics being used in Iraq, etc, are not being entirely successful. Yes, they are a pain in the ass to the American forces, and they will eventually get what they want. But where do the the police state forces have to go? They are already in their home country.

So, take what's good from those tactics and discard the rest. Is there any other ways to win over the general population?

As far as communications, I have heard that microSD cards have been used. People buy small cheap ones, then pass encrypted files by hand. The extremely small size is apparently the main advantage.

Hitech_Hillbilly

[Hirudinea]

But the part where I die along with the poor citizens is where I start to lose interest

Excellent point, Rbick. That is part of the reason behind my original post. My death is not something I would be looking to run headlong into.

You don't have to be in the area when its wrecked, the Israelies will destory a neighbourhood when its used as a "base" for terrorist attacks, some remote controled mortors in a neighbourhood could be enough to get the government to level the place, and you don't get hurt.

Is there any other ways to win over the general population?

Hamas gets good results by setting up soup kitchens, schools and other welfare style programmes in poorer neighbourhoods, the black panthers did as well, so if you have the money try using it to buy the support of the poor, hey they can be taught to shoot guns.

As far as communications, I have heard that microSD cards have been used. People buy small cheap ones, then pass encrypted files by hand. The extremely small size is apparently the main advantage.


Yea, a female agent could transport one in a tampon, what federal agent would want to search through that!? (No I'm serious!)

[mike-hunt]

Gust to clarify an earlier point I made about weapons stockpiles I was talking of stockpiles gathered in advance of any civil unrest by various survivalist and religious groups or individuals fearing the government seizure of there guns. Most of these groups will be already on your side.The combining of these smaller groups is how an army can be formed.
As for spreading proper gander don't over look the power of gossip and rumor if underground media reaches gust 1% of the population rumor will spread it to the rest properly exaggerating the truth along the way.

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

Let's go back to Air Power. Would you just resign yourself to being bombed back into the stone age, or would you attempt to counter the air support? If you decide to attempt to counter their air support, how would you do it?

[TreverSlyFox]

Let's go back to Air Power. Would you just resign yourself to being bombed back into the stone age, or would you attempt to counter the air support? If you decide to attempt to counter their air support, how would you do it?


You counter Air Support the same way you counter Armor and Artillery support, you attack the personnel in their off time and disrupt supply sources. You always have to remember is takes 12+ REMF people to support 1 person in the field. Air power without one of the critical three, Pilots, Fuel or Armaments is just a pile of junk sitting on a runway. It's the same with Armor or Artillery, take away the ability to move the equipment, re-arm the equipment or man the equipment and it's just junk sitting there.

Tanks, Bradley IFV, Strikers, Jets and Helicopters are big time fuel hogs, fuel is flammable and transported in big, easy to identify trucks that don't like fire or explosives. They need crews that need rest, food and need to take a leak every few hours and require maintenance crews to keep them running.

Modern Armies and LEO depend on power and communications to operate, without electricity they are blind and dumb. Again their fuel supply is the target along with any support personnel and supplies.

Trying to go toe-to-toe with any modern force larger than a squad will get you killed. IED's, Sabotage, Booby Traps and quick Hit and Run attacks will keep you alive. Killing the guy with the gun isn't always the best move, killing the Cook, Supply Sgt or Mechanic may accomplish a lot more in the long run.

[neetje]

I think that in the beginning it would be easy to destroy the fuel supply of an army. But if it's your main target for a couple of days, those trucks will become part of armed convoys and therefor harder targets.

An IED with a remote control would be effective. just wait for the truck :)

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

Both excellent points. How would you keep separate the fuel and power supplies of the military and LEO from the civilian supplies? If you would attack both, how would that effect your campaign to win over the civilian populace to your side (so that you can stay hidden)?

[Rbick]

This is where the stupid ass insurgents in Iraq are messing up. They keep killing Iraqi civilians and destroying peoples property, hence the civilians now refusing to help the insurgents. The only thing you can really do, and its pretty simple, is to make sure your targets are strictly military and to make no mistakes. This would require more patience and planning, but would be worth it in the end. I think this would be particularly easy since the military/police likes to role around in camo colored vehicles and uniforms.

[Hirudinea]

How would you keep separate the fuel and power supplies of the military and LEO from the civilian supplies? If you would attack both, how would that effect your campaign to win over the civilian populace to your side (so that you can stay hidden)?

It depends on how you spin it, people love their soft lifestyle, and if you can convince them that its the governments responsibility to keep the lights on then they will blame them when they go off, but the government will be blaming you.

[bobo]

countering air power... military engagements... firepower... thats what you do in a more or less equal conflict. In the case of a government against its people, there is one side with overwhelming firepower but a lack of information, against resistance fighters operating in the shadows.

Direct confrontations is what the military is good at, playing their favorite game against them doesn't seem terribly smart to me. If you believe that a bunch of toughs with rifles will be successful against a trained military unit in a direct confrontation, even in an ambush on a convoy with no immediate air support, then you really need to study the current ops in afghanistan and iraq some more.

Perhaps killing key people and blowing up key structures is better than to try and outgun the grunts because they, after all, are nothing but disposables to the evil government anyway.

[tiac03]

I remember watching a good video on the British resistance that was formed in case England was invaded by the Germans. I wish I could find the video so I could post it for everyone to see. (It was on stage 6 before it closed).

Anyways what struck me was that they were expected to only survive for about 2 weeks, and hopefully in that time what remained of the regular army could push the Germans off the Island again.

Now your only hope as a resistance element is that some other country finds what you are doing right and they decide that your gov't should be stopped. Now without the aid of another Government you cannot change much. Sure you might piss em off quite a bit but they will remedy the situation if no one steps in to help.

Iraq is a great example. Sure they kill some troops and cause instability, but the US just keeps going. How many insurgents have died at this point in the "War" and how much of an effect have they had? If you do start to resist a gov't the chances are that you and many others will die or be imprisoned.

Unless you have a good way to keep the Gov't at your level you have no chance. And to do this is very difficult.

One's best bet is to assassinate the Leaders of the hypothetical government and hope their replacements decide that the leader was wrong. There are always others that oppose the "leaders".

Look back in history and ask yourself: If Hitler and a few others were assassinated when they got into power would it have changed anything?

Obviously it is difficult to do but if everyone planned on that rather than trying to make plans for destroying everything else wouldn't it be better?

Easier to take out 1-10 heavily guarded people than a whole army no?

[Alexires]

Hmm. Certainly a few very good points in this thread. I think the main point here is that there is no way some kind of resistance force is going to last without the support of the citizens.

If the citizens of this hypothetical country Libertania are completely brainwashed and dependant on the government, the resistance's job is going to be all that much harder. It will be like 1984 mixed with Equilibrium and given half a tonne of speed and steroids. I urge people to investigate the alternate reality "Year Zero" game (have a look at wikipedia with the search "Year Zero (game)").

I believe that, although a game, it has pertinence to this discussion. The need to have the citizens blame the government would be a necessity.

Graffiti, posters pasted on walls, pirate television and radio would certainly be the way to go. Disrupting the government controlled TV stations and broadcasting on that same channel for perhaps only a minute or two while the government station is down.

Any instances where the government has had civilian "collateral damage" while trying to catch the resistance and covering it up would need to be exposed during these pirate broadcasts. Targeting universities which is a typical place for dissidents to breed (Tiananmen Square anyone?) would certainly be an option to explore.

Targeting the military outright would be a stupid thing to do. Hitting the support mechanisms would be the way to go. Disrupt power, fuel and food to the military. If they can't eat, they can't fight. Hijacking ammunition transport might be a tactic as well.

Perhaps a general plan would look something like this.

1. Integrate into society - Look just like the rest of the sheeple. No point in being on the red flag list from the beginning, because you will be the first sent toe "re-education camps".

2. Start to plan activities in small cells, independent of one another. Perhaps 1 cell per city/region/state, whatever. That way, if one cell falls, the resistance isn't risked.

3. Said activities would consist of small scale attacks/disruptions/sabotage of soft targets such as television stations, radio stations, power stations. This step would include pirate radio/tv broadcasts during those disruptions. Perhaps by targeting all stations bar one, the populace would watch that one more so that when a crucial message needs to be gotten out, that one could be targeted. Start to get the populace on side. This is an on going theme through this plan. At any stage, this is probably one of the highest priorities.

4.As the military/police (there won't be much of a difference at this point) start to respond to these attacks as well as their normal actions of rounding up "dissidents", "free-thinkers", "gun nuts" and other social eccentric, the resistance would attempt to disrupt these activities as much as possible. Disrupting communications, or listening to them so that those people being rounded up suddenly "disappear" before the police get there and can be coerced into working for the resistance (they will be thankful, of course).

5. Start to scale up to major hits against "half cooked" targets (targets that aren't hardened, but aren't soft either). These kind of things would include fuel/ammunition transport to military/police bases, the smaller rural police stations and also military/police communications.

6. Major disruption against television and radio stations. Of course, this would depend upon how the people are. If they are pissed off because their Saturday night football game is ruined, and they blame you, perhaps it isn't such a good thing. Yet, if their children are searching for the resistance members, trying to support them and are causing disruptions of their own, perhaps it is worth it.

7. Start to target higher up government officials. Cut the head off without direct confrontation with the body. Perhaps some kind of hostage situations with the officials families (while treating them with the utmost courtesy) and causing disruptions to government operations whilst gaining a reputation as being fair.

Perhaps this point needs explaining. If you take the ZOG Officials family, tell him to give you a million then kill them anyway, you have just made an enemy that will stop at nothing to get you. In a way, this can be useful, but most times, it isn't. Where as if you silently hold his family, treating them like kings and tell him to do something small. Perhaps hand over his password to the computer systems, or where this months attacks on dissidents will be, and return his family promptly, you will gain a reputation for keeping your word, being fair, and also not asking for much. People will be more inclined to do what you ask them, because they will be more inclined to believe you will return their family to them.

Black mail also comes in here, and it will be a very useful tool. Again, one must be "fair" and "reasonable".

8. The turning point. By this point, one would hope that the military/police would be ineffective, making mistakes, and generally pissing the populace off. The government would be in shambles, still maintaining everything is fine, where everyone can see the rot inside, and the populace will be actively supporting the resistance. From this point, the populace will do the work. They will protest, they will blame the government, and the government doesn't have THAT MANY troops to deal with the population.



I think that in such a situation, it would be a battle for the people, not ground, resources, oil, money, or any other such commodities. The good will of the people will be the goal. With them, we can do everything, without them, we will be useless.

[LibertyOrDeath]

Lots of good points have already been made, but I'll add my two cents.

As Rbick said, fighting openly against a conventional military would be suicide. Hit-and-run would be the only way to go. You want to strike when they're not expecting it. Assuming Libertania is as large as the United States, there is NO WAY Libertania's government can keep it all under a high-security lockdown. Even a nation the size of Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan is very hard to dominate.

My way of resisting would likely be based on a lone-wolf approach, although I'd work with someone else if I could find someone I trusted enough. My main methods would probably be

(1) sniping at targets of opportunity from at least 400 yards with a high-powered, scoped, bolt-action rifle, using armor-piercing bullets if needed (see this thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=102527)). Make one or two shots, then disappear before aircraft or reinforcements can arrive. For more on sniping, I highly recommend the book The Ultimate Sniper by Maj. John Plaster. Also, we should make a note of the tactics used by the "Beltway Snipers," though of course we wouldn't kill innocent people.

A lot of people are really into rapid-fire "mouse guns" like the AR-15 and AK. I like these weapons too, and they have their place. But do you really want to be fighting "up close and personal" when you're outnumbered and can be surrounded by reinforcements at any time? Especially when the System's goons will be wearing body armor that makes torso shots by all except the most powerful rifles ineffective? Not me. I'd rather pick one off with a head shot when he and his buddies are standing around and not expecting anything.

(2) IEDs and arson, though I would be careful not to harm innocent people. The problem with IEDs is getting enough explosives or raw materials to make them. Some people have access to a lot of ammonium nitrate or KNO3 fertilizer, which gives them a big advantage here.

(3) If cornered and there were no way out, I'd just try to take a few of the System's enforcers with me. That would be better than being tortured for the rest of my life in some hellhole.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

A friend and I have lasered a little range ourselves on another friend's property (actually it's State Leased land) and have our own rifle range. I go each week and play out there and frankly 400 yds is a really close piece. I believe that most people who are competent with a bolt gun can do silhouettes of the human form at 600 with continual hit /kill probability: perhaps no real group for awhile but certainly a center of mass shot(s).

I don't really enjoy talking about distance shooting because it's so damn opinionated but if you can dope wind and have a reasonably good understanding of ballistics, I believe most folks can shoot competently at 600 and over.

I have the chance to play around with 600 - 1000 and at that point it get tough to range estimate (EVEN when you know what the the thing is SUPPOSED to be). I have a floated Krieger barreled action with a Timney trigger (system) that will push a 7.62 NATO round (168gr bthp match) sufficiently to make a body shot at 1000 but so many little things play a role. HOWEVER....if those ranges were in an urban setting those malevolencies may be much less or not exist at all.

[Barnacles]

I have spent a great deal of time thinking about a situation like this. That is why I pay very close attention to the Iraq war. It shows you how a bunch of ragtag goat farmers can tie up the worlds most powerful military for years and cost the economy 2 trillion$.

Roadside bombs, roadside bombs, roadside bombs. sniper sniper sniper lol. To counter air superiority you need spotters or a shit tonne of SAM. A typical fighter jet can pick and choose bomb targets from 15 km away horizontally this does not include height. Anyway. I figure lets say you are doing an attack on troops in downtown. You have spotters at the outer city limits assuming you guys saw no air support close by before the attack. These guys would be 15-30 km away from the battle at polar points away, and use listening devices and looking devices to spot incoming air support and warn of 2 minutes or whatever is there response. and that is how long you have to pull out of battle. If you got lots of sam rockets, your chances of hitting an advanced fighter or bomber I would assume is pretty low, but if every time a attack chopper or fighter flew over a certain town or city, they had 15 SAM's launched at them you are bound to hit some or just make them think twice or be very careful with air support.

For arty, you set up remote rockets to shoot at a base, and have a camera set up to watch the response, it typically take 3-11 (usually higher end) minutes in Iraq for a Artillery response, learn this and use this. The military finds you by following the phosphor trails or smoke trails to the rocket launch site. Personally I find those long range rockets would be better suited to fire out of a window of a residence into a passing light armoured vehicle. Or out of the ground to fire into the belly of a vehicle.

For my IEDS when not to close to civilian populace. I would use "dirty" bombs. Not the typical radioactive although I would if I could. I would put stuff like asbestos and cancer causing chemicals, powdered glass, nails, shit dirt, everything you can to make the bombs scarier to the troops. If troops are of fear that every roadside bomb that goes off will be toxic they will not only fear the explosion but the dust itself, if you can convince the army that you are giving cancer , or rendering them infertile. , or possibly blinding them with glass dust or just anything scary, they will be scared everywhere they go, and youllcatch them holding their breath after detonations which would be a good time to start a gunfight...

I would also spend a great deal of time rigging cars to drive remotely. Al-qaeda has used a few of these in Iraq and the mythbusters have used them in a few episodes. Also armoring the engine and tires so it could not be disabled easily by small arms fire...This way you have the ability to deliver large ordinance on target without a jet plane, or losing a fighter to a suicide bombing.

Tunneling would also be very important. Tunneling under outposts to plant very large charges would be pretty good strategy also. I have seen this tactic used very succesfully a few times, in hezbollah and iraqi insurgent videos.

Just use every weapon available, insects, chemicals, chemical weapons, swords, bows, animals. disease. and FEAR.

When I have more time I will try to write some more tactics in detail. This is all hypothetical of course.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

There is a unique balance between power to disperse a material and the breakdown of that material to a point of uselessness. If a material is to be dispersed over a wide area, it must be proportional to the strength of the energetic dispersing it, else it will be made dust & in an open area like the desert, become much less effective.

There is a very specific science to area weapons that is unlike many others. I found that what was needed (was) to not only understand a great deal more of higher mathematics but bring together several physics elements to lend effectiveness to the weapon. Just my opinion here but there is a Hell of a lot involved in area weapons outside of the simple geometry of dropping on target.

The reason that the old MKII was re-designed to the M26 (grenade) is an encapsulation of many of these issues. What's more the story of the Mortar as one of the oldest area weapons in history [and perhaps one of the most unique; bringing together concepts that blossom beyond the superficial] is a wonderful thing.... mortars hold a special fascination to me.

[Barnacles]

I was wondering do you know of any literature you can point me to that further elaborates on this subject.

I understand what you are saying, most of my ideas involving area weapons are more based on causing fear and disruption, while forcing troops to undergo further preventative measures in frivolous protection. While I would not put to much thought or time into the weapons( obvioulsy I will do some work to improve design, I wouldnt be spending countless hours or $ to do so) but the cost to enemy to protect against simple things like that. While taking me or the bomb/weapons maker a few extra seconds to prepare the bomb, adds another whole dimension of tactics/fear to the battle.

I have some drawings of some of my ideas, I actually sent to mega,as I requested that we have a section devoted to guerilla warfare tactics and methods of producing weapons to use in such war. I am not sure but I believe that putting a hollow layer of 1 inch to several inches around the charge to give room between the charge and the powder or whatever you wish to disperse. I cant think of a way to describe it other than this poor description for now. Imagine a blassing cap of 10 grams maybe thats long and thin like a pencil, suspended in the middle of a two litre pop bottle, on the outside of the bottle there could be a layer of whatever.

I think tactics like this could breed dissent amongst the troops, I mean who wants to go into cancer causing clouds or be rendered infertile. It may not work effectively. You may see troops refusing to go on patrols , lowered recruiting numbers, could force occupying force to leave altogether or force them to conscript if they are not already. Causing further problems at the homeland abroad on top of the battle zone.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

OH boy, do I ever have literature directives on that subject! But I don't know your background so I will be general in my suggestion with material discussing area weaponry and related agenda. Keeping in mind that there are aspects of geometry, trigonometry, physics & energetic materials science interwoven in all of this, where you want to start are places like Westpoint War college libraries or related military schools. [Concepts in Area Weaponry, Dawn M.F. 1968, Applied Science of the Mortar, DelViechio Univ Press, 1949] Those two are VERY math oriented.

You can find some of this material online. you want to get into the Military School's war fighting library and they will have everything from the basics to the most highly advanced studies of area weaponry. You are looking to fully understand what it takes to make area weaponry effective. Simple as that. The texts will take you through a "what happens when" flow chart of sorts that will illustrate the variables. then you simply extrapolates what you need to learn more of or what "trips your trigger".

If you've gotten to trig in school I could make some suggestions, but if not, just use the above generalities to find what you need.

[Joxer]

(2) IEDs and arson, though I would be careful not to harm innocent people.

You may not harm innocent people, but you can bet that the .gov would, and blame you for it.

I wouldn't exactly die of shock if I learned that is what was happening in Iraq.

[-=HeX=-]

The gov are just like hitler. He burned down the reichstag and blamed it on the communists. The gov will slaughter a few sheeple and say that you did it. No qualms.

I also reckon that the sheep will only hear of the govs victories over the rebel terrorists and not how the insurgents have beat them... Just like in hitlers time...

Now is the time. Here is the place. The crackdown is occuring as I type. Scary but true.

Charles, do you know of any good websites with data on mortars and the math behind them? I need a good resource for the mortar section of my .pdf file. I also find mortars a fascinating weapon.

[Rbick]

I wouldn't exactly die of shock if I learned that is what was happening in Iraq.

No this isn't what is happening in Iraq. I've been there and I was the ".gov" you're speaking of. Civilian lives were important to us and we made sure not to harm innocent people. We handed out candy to kids and all that crap. Civil affairs was and still is a BIG deal. What I did observe while in Iraq was the number of civilians killed by militants who didn't like each other because they believe in Allah differently. This is the reason many Iraqi civilians are now going against the Insurgents and joining the US, as they [the insurgents] are killing innocent people. The soldiers over there are not part of some big conspiracy against humanity, despite what many hippies believe. They are just regular guys doing their job, like I was. They arn't killers murdering innocent people and then pointing a finger at the insurgents. The insurgents ARE killing innocent people and we are trying to stop it, because its retarded.

Yes, sometimes civilians are caught in crossfire. It is accidental, and anyone who knows anything about war knows that civilians will always get hurt. I remember giving medical aid to a small girl who ended up too close to a breaching charge because her dad was trying to kill us. I felt horrible. Its good to see the people over there put their families before anything else (sarcasm). This kind of crap happens, especially when their dumb fuck father puts them in the middle of a gun fight because he thinks Allah will protect him.

Now that we have that cleared up...

I also reckon that the sheep will only hear of the govs victories over the rebel terrorists and not how the insurgents have beat them... Just like in hitlers time...

This is what Saddam did when the US was invading. It worked for the most part, until M1 Abrams tanks rolled into Baghdad. The way to get that cleared up is doing things that can't be covered up, like blowing up an important landmark or building, or destroying telecommunications.

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

Another point (or question) to think about. How many of the Libertanian soldiers/LEO would continue to "just do their job" and how many would go Awol before attacking their family and friends?

Unlike Iraq, etc. this would be on their own home soil. This is something to keep in perspective. I still believe some soldiers/LEO do their jobs because they believe that what they are doing is morally just or in the greater service to the laws governing their country. During a crackdown, many will not agree with the regimen taking power, and may refuse to assist.

[neetje]

Another point (or question) to think about. How many of the Libertanian soldiers/LEO would continue to "just do their job" and how many would go Awol before attacking their family and friends?


I think you are asking this question a bit wrong. I think the question is not 'how many go awol' but 'how to get them in MY army'. They go awol, and therefore will go to military prison (probably a modern version of Hitler's Death Camps) if caught.

Getting these men into your army would be a very important objective. These men are trained, they know the tactics of the enemy, maybe they can steal some weaponry for you before going awol and who knows what they can do more. Another quality of these men is that they are being hunted, and therefore highly motivated.

The other side would be that it will be easy for the government to infiltrate. All they have to do is 'pretend' a soldier going awol and then inserting him into your army.

Anybody got any thoughts about this? Because I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting something important ;)

[Joxer]

RBick

They are just regular guys doing their job, like I was. They arn't killers murdering innocent people and then pointing a finger at the insurgents.

Then where are all of the Abu Ghraib pics and other kinds of videos coming from?
See the one where they teased kids with bottled water?
How about the one where they threw grenades into a herd of sheep?
There are plenty of videos SOLDIERS recorded that show things like this, and worse.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/multimedia/2008/02/gallery_abu_ghraib
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19536.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/world/middleeast/09iraq.html?_r=4&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1198517327913&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2008/01/ap_randomfire_080109/

Those are just a few links I have on my site. I can post many more.

Not that you participated in any of this. I dont know you and I certainly wont accuse you of this. But some sure as fuck did, and they had the gall to document it for all to see. I wonder why. They certainly didnt fear their COs' wrath. I guess that means their commanders approved of this.


Now when it comes to false flag operations, like these bombings might be, who gains? It's ceratinly not the insurgency.

If we were invaded like Iraq was, we'd fight back too. That is a common shtf scenario.

Who do we trust? Some of us don't trust soldiers or LEO, and it doesn't matter if they are the Good Guys or not. It's hard to tell someones loyalties by how they dress, and its better to be safe than sorry, imo.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

A bit off topic, but here is an tactic which I feel is very relevant to a post SHTF world:

A surprisingly successful, yet terribly funded, revolutionary group currently in existence is the EZLN (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional). Now, when the Zapatistas were more active they didn't have enough money to stock their troops with guns and ammo. So they faked it.

The simply made wood cutouts which resembled guns at a medium distance. They then would surround an enemy (Mexican Army) patrol in the jungle and disarm them. Now they had real guns! Using 1/2 fake and 1/2 real guns in such raids they successfully stocked their weapons supply.

I very much doubt that any freedom fighting group in a post-SHTF world would have the kind of money/resources to supply their troops all too well. So trickery like this would be a must.

[Barnacles]

Hinckley this reminds me of a tactic used in WW2 by the allies right before DDAY. They built the worlds largest fake army and posted it at some other far point in england, to be purposely spotted, this way the germans would think the invasion was coming from somewhere else than it really was to be. They had tanks planes everything, but they were all painted inflateable ballons that would even fool those standing beside one. I saw a video of some guys standing beside a tank, they than went and flipped it over with there bare hands...

[megalomania]

Now the question you have to ask yourself is "did he shoot all six bullets, or only five?" Do you feel lucky punk, well, do ya? :)

The tactic of surrounding an enemy without shooting can be even more effective if it works. Soldiers tend to start shooting when they are being shot at, if they are surrounded and outnumber they are going to die anyway, so they shoot back. When the enemy does not shoot, the soldier can logically conclude they are going to be spared. This is one of those standoff situations, you try and fight, you will die.

This is also like the mugger with something pointy in his jacket pocket. Is it a gun, or just his finger? Do you want to find out the hard way?

The WWII deceptions were designed to fool aerial surveillance, not troops on the ground. The Germans only thought Patton was mobilizing an attack in one direction so the attack could take them by surprise in another. It would be very difficult to use this trick to fool aerial surveillance today, what with thermal imagine systems and ground penetrating radar. However, throw up some camo netting and use IR smokescreens, and the enemy will wonder what the hell you are up too. What they can't see will make them nervous.

[nmp2]

To free Libertania is a long term goal, and to free it from an entrenched, well armed and motivated political structure cannot be done by small scale armed insurrection. You would be just giving them a target to aim at. Large scale armed revolt would fare just as badly. In order to give a large, well equiped enemy fits, never give them anyything solid to shoot at. (Vietnam, Iraq, Bosnia...)
Rather, fight them slowly, (your goal is worth the wait, right?) from the ground up.
Fight with customized religion. Teach the children in drips and draps, make the common man your friend in basic theology, and add a bit to that strategy slowly. Eventually, a generation or so, every single heart within the borders of Libertania will beat for release.
Unstoppable.

BTW Hinkley -
The Soviets used to claim that they had seven working space shuttles back when we had two. They had them rolled out on the tarmac daily so we could spot them from sat.
Closer observation revealed that at a 4 pm flyby, these shuttles cast shadows no longer than 5 or 6 inches.
Plywood.

[-=HeX=-]

The space shuttle comment reminded of of a IRA trick from the troubles. It went like this. They would get a corpse, and put make up on it to make it look alive. They would tape a fake gun into its hands and pros it up. They would then rig the body with explosives and hide nearby with a detonater. When a soldier shot the corpse it would be knocked over and the stupid squaddie would in over to check... Then boom!

That is how we reuse dead people :D

[nmp2]

In this time of global warming/impending ice age, we must recycle as we can...

To be forewarned is to have four arms.

[-=HeX=-]

Good one nmp2! It also means that fallen comrades can still kill enemies when dead. I would use telesnipers and claymores to hold buildings. Imagine clearing a room then the room go boom... :)

I believe defeating infrared vision has been discussed here a while back. Really though, kill the REMFs and the pilots and planes are moot. Kill a pilot and you have cost them a few million in training. Kill a tank and the tank regiments morale will drop. Go for their morale.

[Alexires]

Speaking of telesnipers, I was looking at a magazine last night, and they were advertising basically a sentry gun. A remote controlled turret that you can attach various rifles too. Probably a result from Iraq. Think kind of Aliens style. At least we know they are out there now *laugh*.

On destroying tanks.... Obviously I can't go into too much detail, but if something like an 84mm anti armour weapon won't take out a modern tank (like the US use) I don't know how well an IED would go.

Unless it can penetrate OVER 400mmish of homogeneous armour, it is only going to piss them off. Unless you hit the tracks or something like that, then it will stop it, but that doesn't stop them from blowing the shit out of everything.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The "telesnipers" was actually up and running in the very early 1980's. - locally. There was a big deal about the Ransom Rest for rifles and someone put together a solenoid unit for the trigger to pull human error out of the equation when testing one of the original Jewell dual stage triggers.....I actually, personally, remember people buying those rests who were REALLY into Varminting. These are some of the stories you can relate when you measure activities by decades....

Redfield (the scope company) was history from it's original owner/developer and the older Redfields were highly prized (still are!): dropped in Leupold low level mounts put the smaller 37mm Redfield bell very close to the barrel: some said too close as the bullet whip would eventually result in scope-edge contact.....So they tested it with no human hand touching the thing.

Eventually when someone go the idea to use his son's RC airplane or car.....a star was born. That was several decades back. And if we had the idea.....then it was pretty damn popular because we are not the most original, free, & independent thinkers in this neck of the woods.

Just as an aside; the 3 states to see good gun shows are Montana, Arizona, & Wyoming. - Used to be Idaho and the Dakotas too, but Idaho became stupid and everyone moved out of the Dakotas.....Those were states where folks prized their independence and their toys.

[BlackFalcoN]

I would use telesnipers and claymores to hold buildings. Imagine clearing a room then the room go boom... :)


How realistic is that idea ?

You are not going to hold any ground for a long time in such a conflict and unless you have actively developed and tested your telesniper device BEFORE a SHTF-situation, you are not going to fabricate one during a true crisis situation where everything will be monitored and locked down; everything else is just fantasy speaking. :p.

Anyway, I think much can be learned from past & current modern conflicts, starting from the SS Werwolf activities during and after WWII, Vietcong tactics in the Vietnam war, Ireland, Bosnia, Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Boobytraps, sniper attacks, IEDs, mortar attacks, hit&run assassinations, night-time raids, sabotage of infrastructure, etc carried out by only a few people.
The idea is to create as much distance between you and a vastly superiour enemy force, since you don't stand a chance in a direct confrontation with a professional, well trained army, no matter how good you think you are. (Note: egos will get you killed ;))

Staying alive, motivated and dedicated to the cause is your biggest concern. Better to retreat and fight another day, than to go down in a hail of bullets, no matter how heroic it may sound. You are only a small force that is inferiour in size and equipment, so be mobile and on your feet to avoid a confrontation with the enemy.

Fight your battles in the urban environment, where long range enemy engagements are harder than out in the open, tanks are having great troubles moving around and crew served support weapons can't reach without creating a LOT of collateral damage. Also, their airforce capabilities will be more limited that way.
Luring the enemy into built-up areas offers a much bigger tactical advantage and will result into larger enemy casualties while minimizing your own. Also, your enemies MOUT doctrine against guerrilla forces has had less time to be tried & proven during history, whereas conventional battles in rural settings are pretty much mastered.

Unconventional warfare is just another word for conducting warfare that does not follow the enemies conventions; be ruthless, take no prisoners, fuck the Geneva convention, shoot them in the back, create terror, be dishonorful to your enemy.
There is little chance you will be able to turn enemy defectors, since a big media campain will be launched against you; propaganda emphesizing the big differences between OUR people and THEIR people.
Very little chance in turning a professional army against their original masters, since military discipline & group feeling are instilled in recruits from day one they enter the army.
No matter how just and honorful your actions are, the'll paint you off as a "terrorist" anyway.
(Especially when combating Libertania forces, since that has been their favourite means of justification for more than 6 decades:
" Remember; Libertania is 'democratizing' the baby-eating, freedom hating terrorists, communists & insurgents; NOT KILLING civilians & those who resist to be dominated by a foreign force or who like to have another world view than we do" :rolleyes:)

Every form of organization above squad level is vulnerable to infiltration by the enemy and a direct threat to OPSEC.
Lone wolf tactics & leaderless resistance is the way to go in my oppinion, it is the only proven tactic that has worked over and over again around the world in many conflicts.

[-=HeX=-]

Blackfalcon: I meant that the telesniper was to be constructed now, before the SHTF. And yes, I agree, lone wolf is the way to go. I would not, however, learn from the ira because they have failed miserably. Trust me on that! I live there (Ireland) and pretty much everyone has a dislike of them.

In the magicians arsenal book it shows how to make a remote control gun. Now read '101 spy gadgets for the evil genius' (I will put it on rapidshit later) and consider the camera gunsight idea... Now merge the two... Both are fairly simple ideas. And viola! Telesniper! (Well use a sniper shelf instead of the pistol used.)

The idea in the thread 'Taplight landmines' is also a weapon that can be used. 'Ballistic smokes' from magicians arsenal could be left pointing at where soldiers will be. Those would cause complete panic due to fears of an assassain or gun man.

Panic and fear are your allies. Maybe I will start a thread on survival?

[BlackFalcoN]

In the magicians arsenal book it shows how to make a remote control gun. Now read '101 spy gadgets for the evil genius' and consider the camera gunsight idea... Now merge the two... Both are fairly simple ideas. And viola! Telesniper! (Well use a sniper shelf instead of the pistol used.)

A remotely monitored firing gun is a great idea, but just strapping a camera to a remotely fired rifle, does not qualify it as a 'sniper' weapon in my oppinion.

I was thinking you were refering to a high precision, long range 'sniper' platform setup, which would not be feasable for the average tinkerer to construct during conflicts, since it requires a lot of fine tuning, testing and materials/money to make it operational and requires very precise material tolerances & advanced ballistic calculations to hit a target.

I agree that the IRA has lost their war on winning the public oppinion, but there are valuable lessons to be learned from their tactics, be it for the better or worse.

Fear is the mind killer; it triggers the unconcious human fight or flight response and can turn sensible adult males into fleeing crybabies OR it could make them more determined in crushing their enemy by using exuberant force and commiting atrocities.
(Like employing nuclear smartbombs on a large population in order to destroy that what makes them fear ;))

[-=HeX=-]

I just came back from my grandmothers house (She is really old, 102 years old and still alive) and she told me a few interesting things. In the irish war of independance her mother blew up a bridge to stop the british black and tans from advancing. Her son died in the blast. He was seen as a martyr. If you study the war of independance a great many things can be learned. After all, we did win (Partly)! First and foremost: assassaination was a very important part, as was execution of spies and informers. Just watch the film 'The wind that shakes the barley'.

She also told me that they used scare crows with hurleys in their 'hands' as diversions so the troops would be looking the wrong way when they opened fire. A hurley looks a bit like a rifle. Another trick was to break into the barracks and steal all the guns. Maybe in todays world we would replace the bullet with detcord.

One man with an EFP can kill a tank. 10 with rifles cant.

[London_Dungeon]

On destroying tanks.... Obviously I can't go into too much detail, but if something like an 84mm anti armour weapon won't take out a modern tank (like the US use) I don't know how well an IED would go.

According to Ragnar's Action Encyclopedia Vol. 2, there are a few ways to take out tanks. IEDs can be used on treads (18 lbs. C-4), or on the undercarriage (45 lbs C-4), given they are on a hard surface.

The engine can be attacked with thermite, or suffocated by throwing a few molotovs at the air intake. Throwing a tire on top would probably help. Supposedly the freedom fighter is helped in this by the fact that tanks can only see forward. One can also try thermite on the ammo supply.

Due to the heat and lack of vision, many times tank commanders will ride sitting out of the entry hatch when not engaged. This is the time to snipe, throw molotovs, grenades, etc.

There is also a story of WWII soldiers hiding construction vehicles out of sight, then riding up to tanks and simply tiping them over.

I am not famliar with tanks, however, so I take Ragnar's advice with skepticism.

[akinrog]

I am not famliar with tanks, however, so I take Ragnar's advice with skepticism.

I believe, you should. Today's tanks are much more sophisticated than those of WWII even those of two decades ago.

Sneaking upon a tank is very difficult (even when immobilized) since now electronic gadgets are being used for monitoring activities.

RPGs which effectively killed any tank a few decades ago now only scratch the surface of the armor. :p

The best shot is what Iraqis are doing, using brute force (i.e. a lot of explosives hidden in the roadside) to destroy (or immobilize) it then continue attacking to kill it together with the crew.

Timing is crucial since if insurgents are delayed then air back up (mostly assault helicopters) shall kill them all. Regards.

[Jacks Complete]

Yes, Ragnar's advice is crap these days.

The US are routinely strapping claymore mines around their tanks to frag anyone running in with a handheld weapon. The guys inside don't care about the noise. As regards telesnipers and the like, where do you think they first existed? It's on armoured vehicles, so the crew can sit inside and shoot you from perfect cover.

Likewise, you'd be lucky to see an unbuttoned tank in Iraq. Why would you let the flies, smoke and sand inside with the heat, when you have perfectly nice filtered (to NBC levels) air-con, as well as a scope that can see 10 times better than your eyes can? Even if there were no bad guys, you'd be daft to sit up top and get bitten by a malarial mosquito.

As for sticking stuff into the tracks or tipping a tank over... Well, I'll watch from CCTV from a bunker, thanks all the same. Those are tanks, not light armoured cars, or even a tank on it's own. It is *tanks* plural. While you try to get your forklift or digger up close, the tank behind is putting a 105mm round through you at Mach 6.5, or a burst from a .50BMG.

[Woland_91]

It is true that IED's can easily penetrate a tank's underside armor. The copper slug formed from the explosion would rip through it, and, if lady luck shines on you, it will hit a shell, causing a huge explosion...But, if I am not mistaken, modern tanks and APCs all come equipped with radio interference equipment. The brave guerrilla fighter would be at his position, hidden from enemy sight, waiting for the big, bulky prey to approach the trap...He would then press the remote control and...nothing. The tank simply rolls by, and your IED sits there:eek:.

As to the "dirty" bomb, a few points should be considered. First of all, where are you going to get the radioactive material in a country where you aren't even allowed a pocket knife? Also, the "dirty" bomb doesn't really do much; it's only a conventional bomb with some decaying element strapped on it. The real power of the such a bomb lies in the fear it causes amongst the people, not the radioactive power. Yes, it will cause cancer. Maybe in 50 years. But by then, everything else will have caused cancer:rolleyes:.

Personally, I discourage hit&run tactics, sniping soldiers and planting bombs in public areas. This isn't your neighbour invading you with evil, foreign soldiers who, according to your propaganda, will murder, rape, loot. This is a family squabble. Those soldiers you talk about blowing to pieces have families and friends. Killing them doesn't make the population happy. It would only fuel the lies the government spreads about you. Remember that, we are not trying to drive anyone away. In an invasion, that would be the case. But in this scenario, the best solution would be the government's armed forces themselves revolting and overthrowing such an evil dictatorship to restore democracy, peace and love to the world. That is, if the army doesn't start another dictatorship:p.

[Barnacles]

Likewise, you'd be lucky to see an unbuttoned tank in Iraq. Why would you let the flies, smoke and sand inside with the heat, when you have perfectly nice filtered (to NBC levels) air-con, as well as a scope that can see 10 times better than your eyes can? Even if there were no bad guys, you'd be daft to sit up top and get bitten by a malarial mosquito.



While this may seem logical , it is hardly what you see there. I have about 500 Iraqi insurgent videos of sniper's IED, car bombs attacks and the like. You would be surprised at how many videos I see of US army guys sticking out of the top of the tank like they got nothing to fear, while in the middle of Iraqi streets. I probably have 10-20 videos of guys getting there heads shot while the top half of their body is out of the hatch, seemingly just relaxing in the open air.. It seems that while they are parked they prefer to be outside and look. While the optics are very good they are rather limited in the width that they see. No monitor can reproduce the peripheral view of your owns eyes in the open...

I have another video of an insurgent sneeking underneath a bradley 3x to put arty shells underneath it. The guy actually had the gall to go back 2 more times to put a total of 3 shells under it, which was then detonated after he left. It was a very balsy operation, looked like it was right beside a small base , and there appeared to be US snipers all around. Just one sneaky mofo.

I collect IED videos and the like...

Edit I guess a bomb like this would do it...
while it may seem like an impossible task around 200 abrams have been taken out in Iraq so far...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swnO1a38ryo

[Jacks Complete]

Another point (or question) to think about. How many of the Libertanian soldiers/LEO would continue to "just do their job" and how many would go Awol before attacking their family and friends?

Unlike Iraq, etc. this would be on their own home soil. This is something to keep in perspective. I still believe some soldiers/LEO do their jobs because they believe that what they are doing is morally just or in the greater service to the laws governing their country. During a crackdown, many will not agree with the regimen taking power, and may refuse to assist.

Just to jump back a bit in the thread, I just re-read this, and it occurred to me no-one has mentioned Tiananmen Square in China. When the tanks first rolled in, the tanks stopped when the protesters stood up to them. The commander on point wasn't prepared to just squash the man stood in front of him.

When they rolled in again, a few days later, the Chinese government sent a bunch of troops from a thousand miles away, who didn't even speak the same language dialect. They simply rolled over them.

Having the first bunch of tank commanders on side didn't do a fat lot of good.

During the UK Miner's Strike (which pretty much crippled the country) the local police forces wouldn't do a fat lot against the local miners. However, they soon worked out that by shipping in bus loads of police from hundreds of miles away, they could get them to happily beat the shit out of the miners, even if they were just standing and singing songs.

It's a bit like having UN troops from Nigeria "keeping peace" - they won't hesitate to shoo or shoot the white English speakers, because they aren't what they can relate to. They would probably shoot the black English speakers, too, because of the funny accent. Mind you, you read about how they treat those from their own countries, and it really doesn't fill me with hope for mankind...

And who can forget that the First World armies have spent billions ensuring that the soldiers they pay will carry out whatever orders they are given, on whoever they are given about. And the police? Well, they love to kick in the locals heads sometimes, just for fun on a cold night.

Any argument is going to be hard.


Barnacles, yes, some of those videos are amazingly brave. But for every one that gets there, there are probably 5 that don't get recorded, and another 5 where the guy gets machinegunned. It was interesting to see the fake ones that have been put on YouTube from video games, though. Give it ten years and it won't be possible to tell the difference, I reckon, between the real and the fake videos.

I just watched one where a Bradley drives across a main road, and hits a car, then backs up and buggers off, and the two humvees follow on too. And the Americans wonder why they aren't winning hearts and minds over there?

[London_Dungeon]

The US are routinely strapping claymore mines around their tanks to frag anyone running in with a handheld weapon.

If you wouldn't mind, could you please source that? It seems like a spectacular waste of money compared to tanks which have ports on the side which could be slid open for firing a pistol/shortened rifle.

I know this is Uncle Sugar we're talking about, but the Military prefers using bullets over explosives whenever reasonably possible. Missles sure are nice for taking out LAVs, but it's even nicer to use bullets and keep the change. "Sometimes the old methods work best."

Not that what you're saying would completely floor me if it's true... ;)

[file]

As said before, it's a good idea to avoid attacking the front lines. Instead, since there is no "front", in such a scenario, it is a very good idea to attack the logistics.

A modern army marches on diesel and gasoline. It marches on food. It relies on advanced commo.

Tanks that have no fuel don't move. Aircraft can't attack if they never get the orders. Soldiers are not likely to be as alert if they're hungry and cold as if they're well fed.

One would target commo first. Keep them from organizing. Taking out the communications of a modern army leaves it "blind, deaf and dumb". In any given area of operations, there should be jamming of all radio frequencies. This gives you an edge.

Another aspect of that is that there is a large power draw in any organized area. Cut power and you make it hard for them to do anything.

From there it depends on the theater of operations, because tactics are very dependent on the environment.

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

File, your strategy is concise and to the point. Not disagreeing, but requesting more info. The Libertainian military is one of the most technologically advanced in the world. Can you go into specifics on how you would take out the communications? How about the fuel? Same with the food?

Also, how would you do this without prejudicing the general population against your cause? Would you only take out military supplies, or supplies in general? Same with communications (since during Grenada, the US had a SEAL unit that used the civilian phone lines to call in an air strike).

Like I said, not disagreeing, just requesting insight into your thoughts on the specifics (and why you choose those specifics).


Jacks, very good points. I do believe you hit the nail on the head there. With control of information, they will be able to hide the fact that while soldiers from one area are beating the crap out of civilians in another area, soldiers from elsewhere are likewise stomping the shit out of their relatives back home. And it could be that with the increase and consolidation of the national, regional, and local police forces, it may be the non-military forces to be the initial spearhead of any crackdown.

[file]

Hitech, I don't know the exact details of what would be employed where, because that is very dependent on what they are using.

Simple brute force and getting a very high wattage transmitter(that can transmit on .mil freuencies) and blasting white noise on all bands would work in some scenarios(like creating a localized blackout on communications in a given area while getting your boys out of there). It would have to hit all the bands though, even those of sat phones and cell phones.

If I may make a reference to a video game(not reality, I know), such a thing would be like the "Gap Generator" from RA2. A localized area that would hamper the manner in which units coordinate. A tank wouldn't be able to talk to it's infantry escort without unbuttoning(whereupon the TC can be shot). Troops wouldn't be able to organize well.

But such a method would be very limited in it's effectiveness and they can overpower you if they have a big enough transmitter. It also pinpoints where you've been pretty well(because you're sending a signal). As such, it'd be best suited to exfil or assaults on supply depots.

There are high tension power lines all over Libertania. While targeting them wouldn't do much to a military target, it would aid in "blacking out" an area even further. Cutting cable and phone would do it even further.


Like you said, the Libertanian military are highly advanced. That is their weak point. They are not going to be able to coordinate well without radio and without power, phone and cable lines they are completely in the dark and alone.

Not only that, but if you knew the codes you could transmit false data and misdirect the enemy. You create a fake threat and they waste resources and weaken their position some. Get enough of their troops out and you can capture a small base with minimal casualties and then make use of it as needed.You could also use such a plan to maximize their casualties by leading them into ambushes.

There is also possibility of using their networks and media ability to hijack a channel and broadcast footage of "enemy" forces(really your own, but dressed as the enemy and using enemy weapons and such) attacking civilians.


As far as dealing with civilian populations, it is to be assumed that they are hostile(at least in the beginning). It is important that they find no enemies in the cause, but rather never even know we were in the area until you have left. If you must get civilian supplies, you buy them fair and legal(although under assumed identities). Most of the supplies must come from the military or from legal purchase, if not all of them. That way the civilians don't directly feel that we are harming them, but rather that the military is.


At all times the forces of revolution should strive to make themselves appear to the people as good and that the enemy is evil. Guerrilla war is PR war. You have to get the populace to think you are the "good guys". That means no looting, killing, stealing etc. unless disguised as enemy.


So far I've only talked about commo. That's because that's the first issue to overcome. With that under control, you can accomplish other things.


Fuel comes in big, obvious trucks. So do supplies. The best bet would be to simply make sure that it never gets there. Truckers must take rest stops. A trucker who takes a bullet in the brain pan can be replaced by one of our own. He then drives the truck further long the line to a designated point, where the fuel/supplies are emptied from the truck and used for our own purposes. The truck is then discarded. It's simple, allows for lots of flexibility and leaves little that can be linked to any side.

Overall, what is important is that the plans stay fluid. Not all situations allow for complete blackouts, truck hijacking or other methods. Instead any individual situation must be looked at for it's unique solution.

[Hirudinea]

Simple brute force and getting a very high wattage transmitter(that can transmit on .mil freuencies) and blasting white noise on all bands would work in some scenarios(like creating a localized blackout on communications in a given area while getting your boys out of there). It would have to hit all the bands though, even those of sat phones and cell phones.

If I may make a reference to a video game(not reality, I know), such a thing would be like the "Gap Generator" from RA2. A localized area that would hamper the manner in which units coordinate.

Sounds like your talking about a Spark Gap transmitter, they were the first type of transmitters used in radio, but they have been pretty much outlawed because they blanket the entire spectrum with radio noise. There are instructions on making a spark gap transmitter on the net (google it), and one could play hell with communications.

[file]

That's exactly what I was talking about. Hit all of the radio spectrum and hit it hard. Won't work for long range, mind you, but it is enough to blanket an area. Cut cable and telephone wires as well and you have blackout.

[neetje]

So we have a solution for communications breakdown. That still leaves you with several problems:

- Soldiers don't want to die. They will fight anything that threatens them when they are cut off from the rest of the world. You have to be sure you can overpower them or you're only making a trap for yourself, because you will be blind too .
- Using those transmitters to black out radio wil make you vulnerable for airstrikes, because your emitter can easily be picked up. The moment the commander finds out he's missing part of his army and there is a blackout in any given part he will launch artillery/airstrikes or whatever will be possible to save his troops.

I'm not much of a military strategist, but using these kind of weapons cannot be to your advantage. If you fight a bigger, better army you must pick the fights you can win. These weapons help by blinding anybody within range, but everybody beyond that range will have a very clear target to bomb...

My only advice here is, use these Gap generators only if you know you have the upperhand, the enemy commanders have a bigger fight elsewhere and you know it won't take long to overpower your target so there is no time to call in an airstrike.

[file]

1. Soldiers don't want to die: Why are you shooting at soldiers anyway? You should avoid fighting front line troops as much as possible anyway. You want to be targeting things like transport trucks, airfields(black out communications and those planes won't get wind of your coming to blow them up while they're on the ground) and other behind the lines areas. You aren't targeting masses of troops, you are targeting areas which are not very heavily guarded.

2. Without special equipment, you won't be able to pinpoint where that emitter is. You'll just know that you're in an area of "darkness". Finding a powerful spark gap emitter in a large area(say a few city blocks) without special equipment is finding a needle in a haystack. That alone gives you time.

In short, the idea is not to have a permanent blackout, but rather a temporary cloak of invisibility that lets you accomplish your objective and keep other bases/units from knowing until it's too late.


Also, after further looking it appears that a spark gap only works with the AM bands, which are mostly obsolete. Most of the radio wave transmissions are FM. However FM can be jammed with an unmodulated carrier wave due to the capture effect.

[barrettm203]

I preface this post as an American SPECWAR technician responding to what may be inevitable in our nation. I respect all other members in other nations and suggest some of this may apply in those nations as well.

Insurrection is a limited response to a much more complex issue as a government takeover or oppression. I believe that complacency and ignorance on the part of the populace is more dangerous than the government’s actions. Case in point LOOK AT THE THREE MONKEYS WE HAVE AS “PRESIDENTIAL” CANIDATES TODAY! So political involvement is important to avoid this instrumentalist failure of self-governance and FREEDOM. Having said this however, we move to the next phase.

When all else fails we need to look at the takeover of a state via infiltration of the political process and a political victories. Montana and Texas are excellent candidates for this action as they have the right of succession. All states are to be autonomous but these two states have not lost site of this. Disclaimer… I am in Arizona… A succession would allow a build up of recognized militia. More importantly it identifies the enemy more easily as well as establishing a centralizing point for those of like mind “patriots”. Military victories are accomplished by the decimation of the enemy civilians are no exception. Guerrilla warfare would break out on there own but without any structure or coordination will be futile in the US. Unless we have a nationwide launch guerrilla cells would easily vanquished.

There is much more detail I would like to share however; I would like to here some feedback on the preceding as well as if there is a desire to here more on this strategy.

[Rbick]

You bring up some good points. Guerrilla cells would probably get squashed quickly and easily. People tend to forget that if there is a revolution, they could be dealing with people such as the SEALs, Combat Applications Group (Delta Force), Rangers, ect. As an ex Army Ranger, I can say that you would not want to fuck with that. Spec Ops soldiers fully equipped would monkey stomp a bunch of civilians with some shotguns and rifles. People can argue with me as much as they want, but when you watch Delta actually operate, you'll know what I mean.

Of course this is not to say that parts of the military would not also join in on the revolution. Anyway, after this whole ordeal in the mid east has calmed down, I think it will be time where we will need to start concentrating on the nations interior, as it isn't looking to well. If it results in revolution is dependent on a great number of variables, too many to count really. We'll see...

[file]

I agree with Rbick on the issue of Spec Ops. Now, regardless of if any are on our side, they are a serious threat. Spec Ops units excel in squashing guerrilla forces, because they have the advantages of both guerrilla and conventional forces. And by serious threat, I mean deadly serious.

However, by trying to tackle variables one at a time things like Spec Ops units can be dealt with. One way of dealing with them(and the best way) is to avoid them. Stay very mobile. Another thing is to shorten or eliminate our supply line. If our (hypothetical) forces have a non-existent supply line it will hamper enemy guerrillas actions against us. Cutting/jamming commo keeps them from getting further backup. No radio means no AC-130 Spooky and it's deadly fire. Faked communications could mean said AC-130 laying fire right on their own men.

The idea is to reduce the number of variables as best as possible so that our (hypothetical) side has less of a chance of encountering Delta, Rangers, Seals, etc. and stands as good a chance against them as possible.


Something else to consider(thank you, barrettM203 for bringing this up) is that getting men on the inside of their system is a very important thing. A friendly Mayor would create a "safe haven" and a possible source of supplies. A friendly person of even higher political standing would be even better. At higher positions, it would be less of a "safe haven" and more of a monkey wrench in their operations. Hindering things to any extent. A friendly supply officer or two in the armed forces could get supplies. A friendly person involved in communications could give intel to us, false directions to the enemy or inhibit enemy commo.

In short, inside men are important.

[Jome skanish]

One important factor that cannot be mentioned to much: Money.

What is the difference between a modern army and a guerilla force? Equipment, communication and supplies. Keeping a fully equipped soldier in the field is expensive as hell. Kill him, and the cost is reduced. Maim him, and the cost is increased. Always think "costs". That is the main advantage in an assymetric struggle, the ability to cause your enemy losses that costs hundreds or thousands of times the money the attack cost for you.

What is needed to operate a successfull guerilla force?

1. External support. The LTTE are supported by exile tamils, FARC is supported by drug-cartels, UNITA was sponsored by south Africa.

Mention one sucessfull guerilla force that is not supported by an external power! Exiled citizens, refugees from the regime and other nations wishing to mess things up is a necessary lifeline, providing supplies and weapons. So, contact 'Mericans in exile. Infiltrate and corrupt the system, divering money and resources to the struggle. Take over the criminal underworld...

One example of a "failed cause" is Swedish nazi morons turning to rob banks to fund their struggle since no one supports them. At least here, the average bank hit provides less money than the same group of people cound earn in honest work. Imagine then dishonest work...

2. Pick your fights. Bleeding the most expensive units (Spec. ops) of the regime military by an endless stream of traps and IEDs is doable, fighting them in the open is suicide. Hit infrastructure to stop industry and trade, these things mean money, and money is what buys the gear that makes the other guy almost invincible. The only way to win is to gradually make sure that one day they can no longer afford eyes in the sky nor juice in their cars.

Always remember:
"There are no human achievements that cannot be brought back to stone age by ancient, blunt violence" - Herman Hedning.

[file]

"2. Pick your fights. Bleeding the most expensive units (Spec. ops) of the regime military by an endless stream of traps and IEDs is doable, fighting them in the open is suicide. Hit infrastructure to stop industry and trade, these things mean money, and money is what buys the gear that makes the other guy almost invincible. The only way to win is to gradually make sure that one day they can no longer afford eyes in the sky nor juice in their cars. "

Bleed them. You must also cut them and can profit off of their own disaster. Hijacking a fuel truck(and stealing it's fuel, then blowing it) could ground enemy aircraft or halt enemy tanks, at least for a little while. Not only does it hurt them and buy you time, it gives you resources. Bleeding them, not only financially but in raw resources is the way to go.

[Alexires]

Following on from what Jome and file said. One would need a way to force cooperation from the insider. Sure some might help out of genuine sympathy, but I would rather have an enemy working for me because I will kill his family, than a friend that is doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

48 LoP comes into play here.

[-=HeX=-]

Chemical weapons. I believe that chemical weapons have a huge potential place in an uprising. This is for the following three reasons:

They are silent killers. A few DCM/HCN/phosgene (mixed together, DCM knocks you out, HCN kills you, phosgene irritates, see the mcx triple threat thread started by nbk) gas grenades thrown into a camp or base of sleeping troops would lead to high amounts of dead troops, wounded troops (poisoned but not dead yet) and the possible contamination caused would pretty much wipe out an enemy camp. This if done a few times, at night, could silently kill many enemy.

The second reason is how it would affect surviving troops. After a large amount of enemy troops are eliminated or wounded (blister agents, also fills up their hospitals, puts more strain on them to protect their wounded) in gas or poison attacks, the enemy will be forced to wear Full NBC kit. NBC kit has a well known effect of slowing down a soldiers movement and reactions. I doubt even the navy seals or delta force could fight as well when slowed down. And a slow soldier is a sitting duck. For the troops not wearing kit, even a kewl chlorine gas bomb would lead to panic and chaos.

The third reason is to enhance existing combat systems. Imagine how the troops would feel if they realized that the shrapnel from that improvised explosive device was coated in ricin or something worse? If the shotgun shells and buckshot were filled with cyanide? Imagine if even the lightly wounded troops began to fall over dead. Their morale and willingness to fight would plummet and their combat efficiency would suffer as a result. They would wear bigger protection slowing them down even more. This big armor means less ammo can be carried and their efficiency and lethality falls further...

There are more applications for chemical weapons, and biological weapons would be invaluable. Nbk'S thread on long term area denial using a battery powered air freshener comes to mind. Troops would capture a building only for it to fill with HCN.

The gap generator could be used in large quantities to wipe out entire sectors of communications. Now if they try to bomb a gap generator they would end up killing their own men. You could place the gap generator near enemy bases To cut them off then the area commander bombs his own men. As a result morale would plummet further. Men would defect.

When you ambush an enemy supply line you are probably attacking a lightly protected thing. A thing that moves quite slowly. Now I have noticed that armies need something called oil. Oil just happens to be expensive, in demand, and flammable. So when you burn it, you cost them money, destroy a resource they need, and piss them off. The fire also will do other damage too.

Therefore you blow up the oil tankers or steal them. What you cant steal you blow up or otherwise destroy. You could kill the crew, rig it with explosives, pretend to be a crewmember and call for help. When help comes, boom.

Now you have attacked the supply lines so the enemy sends troops from the front lines to protect them. This means there are less guys now available to kill you on the front lines. So you use remote control claymores and telesnipers to pick off the guards and vehicles on supply lines, and explosively fired projectiles to penetrate the oil tankers, and incendiary rounds fired from remove control mortars to ignite the oil. You continue your bombardment for a while and leg it.

As for blowing up bridges, you should do as my great grandmother did in the war of independance here. She waited. She waited until the enemy soldiers were on the bridge, then blew it sky high. Not only did she stop the enemy from crossing and advancing, she scored bonus points by killing them too. Now try that on a big bridge with tons of army tanks and trucks crossing. Boom. They go for a swim, they cant advance on you, and some will die.

Improvised 'Fire ant' devices As well as our own improvised 'Eyes in the sky' armed with explosives can help remotely blow up expensive stuff from far away. You cant kill a jet in the sky but it cant get up there with a hole in its wing That the fire ant EFP made :D

I also hear that jet fuel, avgas, should not be set on fire. Well, what would happen if someone were to accidentally throw a thermite grenade at a tank of avgas? Think destructive thoughts.

[file]

Don't forget that you can roll into a base to the rear that has been decimated by chemical weapons, mop it up and then take their weaponry. Maybe you find a "little bird" or a HMMWV. Maybe you hit a refit center for tanks(the places in the US where they patch up tanks that were blown all to hell). Jackpot! You don't just want to steal their disposable things(fuel, oil, etc.), you want to loot their vehicles, aircraft and equipment too.

There was a lot more to this post, but it disappeared. Most of it was just elaborating on Hex's ideas for chemical weapons, especially focused on Mustard agents. Not really adding much.

[Mr Science]

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but I think one of the most important things that can be done now is the distribution of information (essentially everything in Roguesci and our FTP). I am sure most of us have this information stored away, but asides from the members here, how many other people outside of Rogue Science would like this information, not to mention the countless other people who will need this information after the shit finally hits the fan?

Asides from myself, I only know of a few other people who put our files and information up on torrents. But it only takes a few people doing to make a massive difference. Currently, nearly everyone is able to use P2P services without much of a (legal) risk. Now is the time to take full advantage of this, before it inevitably becomes too late.

[Setharier]

One must remember internet and global networks. They aren't stright controlled by any state and can be networked by quite simple and undetectable antenna stuff and link around to underground network. That network is as well accessable to all the "normal" people who wants to do something even for a little to have access to the internet. Propaganda messaging can be easily and nearly globally done.

Heavy antennas can also be set on the border nation. There was such an event during the cold war when Soviets had control over Estonia; Finlandians had purposely but not officially set their antenna transmitters so strong estonians could easily watch their transmissions about real free western goodness.

As well all the data transferring concerning about advanced army. In theory, they could set up huge amount of small household antennas spreading "trash signal" at all frequencies to deny the messaging.

Future civil war and war as a common concept could very likely be significantly a proxy war. The Big Brother doesn't have at all so big control over all the people because of the web. Telecommunication satellites can be readed with nearly any antenna device and many commercial satellite, globally. Armies do work and will work via electronic network at electromagnetic frequencies.

Conventional man vs man or unit vs unit - battles are history. Future war WILL BE more and more unfair and most probably therefore very boring. Civilization 1 and 2 are in underground bunkers and launch missiles and KE weapons to the others and shoot them down as best as they can, just waiting when one of heads will penetrate the defence systems..

As said, everybody must now copy-paste all articles related to "denied" stuff like explosives, chemicals and other stuff and synthesis and put them between a book which has some pages cut off to fit USB card between it well. When Big Brother decides to cut down all stuff like this, you will be prepared for it. Then, just copy and spread the instructions all around, but be careful! Printers have tracking codes visible in UV light printed in them, and BB could technically track you down by date and time, product number from factory and therefore in which product series it belongs and where this series has delivered and which time sold by bonus card registers of minimall and what do you look like by cameras walking with box of printer, and so on..

[London_Dungeon]

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but I think one of the most important things that can be done now is the distribution of information (essentially everything in Roguesci and our FTP).

A few months ago I was thinking the exact same thing.

My plan is to burn every book and article worth reading which is relevent to warfare, revolution, and pretty much anything else "They" don't want you to know onto CDs, and leave them on buses, in parks.. pretty much any place a random person can pick it up. Sew the seeds of revolution. Perfectly subversive and perfectly legal.

I live five minutes away (walking) from a high school with outdoor lockers, so filling them up with my little presents should be fun at least.

[Alexires]

I live five minutes away (walking) from a high school with outdoor lockers, so filling them up with my little presents should be fun at least.

I'd love to see some peoples reactions to that. Funny as hell. It would be interesting to include an email address (that cannot be linked to you in anyway) for further information. Then again, that is VERY dangerous, and I wouldn't do it myself.

[London_Dungeon]

If anything interesting happens of it, I'll let you know. With the city I live in I and the school I'm targeting I wouldn't be surprised if it made the news. They actually had a kid arrested once for talking about Columbine.

Fun fun fun!

[Hirudinea]

I'd love to see some peoples reactions to that. Funny as hell. It would be interesting to include an email address (that cannot be linked to you in anyway) for further information. Then again, that is VERY dangerous, and I wouldn't do it myself.

Just use the classical techniques, put your pamphlets in library books and free newspapers. Oh and print all your stuff yourself, home printing is so easy there's no reason to use commerical printers.

[Alexires]

Hirudinea - I more meant that including an email address could be dangerous. I think leaving "subversive" material is amusing at the very least and I certainly await the results eagerly.

[Hirudinea]

Hirudinea - I more meant that including an email address could be dangerous.

Oh I agree, never leave anything that can be traced back to you, hell I'ed even wear gloves when handling the leaflets.

I think leaving "subversive" material is amusing at the very least and I certainly await the results eagerly.

Well its worked since the invention of the printing press.

[Hitech_Hillbilly]

print all your stuff yourself, home printing is so easy there's no reason to use commerical printers.

You want to be very careful there. All modern printers supposedly print a microscopic identifier on each page. This supposedly can be traced back to the original purchaser.

[Hirudinea]

You want to be very careful there. All modern printers supposedly print a microscopic identifier on each page. This supposedly can be traced back to the original purchaser.

True, but if your going to be printing "subversive" information you should take the precaution of using either an older printer, made before identifer technology, or buy a used printer from the goodwill, so they can't trace the printer back to you. (Hell if your really paranoid buy a used printer at goodwill, with cash, use it once and junk it.)

[festergrump]

(Hell if your really paranoid buy a used printer at goodwill, with cash, use it once and junk it.)

I think that'd be the way to go since they really only can nab you for printing the subversive material if they find you own (or had recent access to) the printer. Mailing in your warranty card or registering your printer online when you buy it probably does not identify the papers printed from your device. But if they don't now, they probably will in the future.

Goodwill has a store not far from me has some unbelievable stuff for ultra cheap. I once bought a brand spanking new sleeper sofa there for $2 when I was first married. :cool: Tons of obsolete computer stuff there on the cheap, too.

I'd also like to be a fly on the wall when they see what's in their lockers. :)

Better, I'd like to see the shock turn to frowns on the faces of the high school's administrators when they see that "their kids" (subjects :rolleyes:) now have "terroristic" information at their disposal. :eek:

The horror... the horror... the horror... [/ Apocalypse Now / Brando voice]

[Bugger]

I buy all my printers - including even some very recent-model ones which originally cost thousands of $s - at local auctions.

[-=HeX=-]

Here is some thaughts on the combat aspect I had during my holidays in france.

I have been reading the archives that I saved on my phone while on holidays in france, and I prepared some posts while I was there. Nows time to post them. I hope they are typo free, seeing as my phones text editor is bollocks.

Anyways, I read a interesting thread about 'Scabbling' in the demolition section. This method of using high explosives fascinated me, and my evil mind quickly came up with how the rebels could use it during the SHTF scenario.

The ideas outlined included painting a road with the explosive stuff. That is a brilliant idea. They cant see it, the mine detectors Cant detect it (Plastic cased detonator) and its in intimate contact with soldiers feet. When the explosive goes off, the ground becomes shrapnel. This shrapnel tends to injure people. The soldiers legs will be right beside the explosive, which will be flinging shrapnel at them, and turning their leg bones into shrapnel to kill other soldiers.

In MOUT Combat, the Scabbling explosive can be painted onto windows, and when troops pass, the window glass becomes shrapnel. Rooms can be painted with the explosive. And a PIR Detector is the initiator. It becomes a horrible booby trap. The room bomb.

The Scabbling can be painted on supply routes to flatten tires on supply vehicles... The supply lines will be 'Ground to a halt'. Just think of all the places where explosive paint could easily be applied in traps...

Also, the other thing still on my mind is chemical warfare. Explosively dispersed MCX in shells fired from remote controlled mortar batteries that are already sighted into their targets. Once the enemy is seen in the target area, the mortars fire, firing half of their ammo. When help comes, the rest fire. Then later on someone reloads the mortars and the process starts again.

Eye in the sky devices armed with chemical weapon payloads or explosively fired projectiles could be used to destroy valuable targets from afar. I probably said that before though in a earlier post.

Scabbling could be secretly placed on runways, and set off when jets and taking off. That would probably FUBAR the jet. It would at least FUBAR the wheels (then the jet would crash and burn on take off or landing). Scabbling could be painted on the enemy tankers when they are empty. When filled, the Scabbling paint would be set off, blowing up the fuel. Maybe even igniting it. That could also destroy expensive filling equipment.

Hit the fuckers in the pockets, and hit them hard. Once they go broke, they cant pay soldiers to kill you. Every time you damage something, you cost them money. A injured soldier can cost far more than a dead one, because medical care is expensive too. The main annoyance to you will be tanks and air attacks. The tanks can be killed with massive, heavy, ANFO charges on roadsides. Planes and helos should be killed on the ground before they can kill you. A jet aint worth jack shit if it cant fly.

Rear echelon motherfuckers are also valuable. Annihilate them wholesale. Gas and mortars. They die, Nobody can fly. Simple as that. REMF's, Fuel, food, supplies like ammo and ordinance, and morale are needed by the enemy to fight efficiently. If they dont have REMF's, their planes cant fly. If they dont have fuel, that tank is a hunk of steel. A gun is just a club without bullets. A man you fight well on a empty stomach. A man wont fight well if he is scared shitless with low general morale. Remove those and the enemy cant fight very well at all.

Learn from history too. In the irish war of independance, the irish were getting amazingly low fatalities amongst their ranks, and were killing Plenty of british troops, and generally were taking very few losses. Then devalera came back and ordered michael collins to fight fair and capture the customs house. In one day we lost 70 or so men, more than we would lose in a week. We also lost loads of ammo and guns, all to no gain. Stick to guerilla warfare, only 'Capturing' targets when there is no enemy for like 20 miles around it. Even so, capturing a target just paints a big bullseye on it for enemy artillery and bombing! That however can be exploited... Pretend to be somewhere, and let them waste ammo and time bombing it into dust!

Another thing that caught my eye is some of the slightly older threads in improvised weapons and battlefield chemistry nbk started. Now I really dont want to round like I am sucking up to the man but some of those ideas are brilliant. I would use the BB machine gun thing to non lethally prevent lightly armored troops entering rooms, or just to antagonise them a bit more. His spigot grenade/ mine would be good for area denial. Trinades would be excellent in MOUT Combat. The polymeric foam could be used both as a persisting thing for nerve agents, or to contain an acetylene/ oxygen mix as a foam explosive. These new tactics and arms Force the enemy to drastically change their tactics. They could even be used as traps. Big pile of foam in a bath. Soldier storms into bathroom, bathroom goes boom. Foamy suds and bubbles seem so household and innocent that soldiers will have a awful time trying to discern between someones washing and a bomb or nerve gas.

The infrastructure of built up areas can also be used against the opposing forces. Fire hydrants can be used to flood buildings and streets. Gas lines can be diverted to fill streets and buildings with flammable gas, and because the enemy will be wearing NBC gear they wont Smell it. Then one spark... And kaboom. They will be in NBC gear because you earlier used chemical weapons against them... Remember?

Sewers can both be used as an escape route (See Nbks .pdf) or they can be filled with flammable gas or explosives to take out whole streets. Manholes can have a drum of ANFO under them to attack tanks that may drive over them. The sewer bombs will destabilize the streets if detonated and tanks will fall into the premade tank traps... Trash cans can have claymores or mini-mores placed in them with infra red triplines to be booby traps. Soldiers wont search every Single bin in the city...

The improvised Telesnipers and remote controlled explosively fired penetrators/ projectiles can be used to cause fear. They fire at their attacker but the attacker cant die... Tripline activated machine guns or pipe shotguns placed absolutely everywhere will make them feel surrounded in a city even if your men arent even in a 10 mile radius... Abandoned cars can be filled with ANFO and have a passive infra red detector placed on them so if a soldier or tank approaches them they blow up, causing casualties. This will also demoralize and frighten soldiers, seeing as they Are completely random and unpredictable. They will soon be afraid to take cover behind a car in case it explodes when they get too close!

Smoke bombs even of the potassium nitrate and sugar type cause loads of smoke and make visibility poor. If you were to incorporate them into a booby trap attack on some soldiers they will be even more frightened. Many remote controlled or tripline activated guns firing at them all at once, cars and other cover randomly blowing up, bins blowing up, smoke everywhere, remote controlled mortars pounding the area, a telesniper with a thermal imager decimating the Ranks...

Is the smoke just smoke or is it something worse? Is that shrapnel coated in ricin or cyanide or is it just metal? Why wont the shooters die when I shoot them even in the head? (you place dummies beside the guns to freak out the soldiers a bit more) who is consistantly taking headshots at my friends with unerring accuracy? Will the car I hide behind be a bomb? The squaddies will be fucking terrified. They will probably defect or surrender (To a enemy that is not even human and has no mercy) they will probably shit themselves and panic under the stress and become complete cannon fodder.

When their backup arrives they will find a area full of dead comrades and mangled surroundings with no cover... They are sitting ducks for the claymores hidden in reserve... They may be freaked out enough to remove their gas masks and breath in the MCX or phosgene in the air... (they will be all sweaty and may need to vomit at the sight of the carnage) and you dont lose even one man.

Then, when the enemy gets worried about the backup and sends in a large force, the whole street suddenly explodes, thanks to the huge ANFO charges and rerouted natural gas in the sewers... After that capturing there Is utterly pointless to the enemy because nothing can move or hide in the ruins left behind. In fact, they will probably bomb the place to dust to try to spite you. Well that is just a expensive waste of their aviation fuel, which thanks to your efforts is becoming in short supply :D :D they dont have a unlimited amount of it you know...

The main aim is to cost them so much money and put such a drain on their resources that they cannot sustain the 'War' against you for long enough to do too much damage to you. You can also cost them manpower by terrifying their troops to the point where they Simply cannot fight, and without the cannon fodder they cannot kill you and therefore you can win.

[festergrump]

Sounds like a great novel, Hex. When will you be writing this? Has it got zombies in it? :) :p

I can't help but to ask that if you were serious about these ideas... and will you be funding this?

"Massive, heavy ANFO charges", "Manholes can have a drum of ANFO", polymeric acetylene/ oxygen foam to blow up the bathroom troopers...

Sounds awesome, dude. If you buy, I'll fly.

How about just getting a couple of good rifles and maybe a pistol or two with no less than 1000 rounds for each, start stockpiling FOOD and clean water, some bleach (for purifying water), a small still for purifying ground or river/lake/pond water, a really decent knife and whet stone, plenty of first aid stuff and medicines from your local feed store (I'm not kidding), growing some vegetables (and maybe some of them left-handed cigarettes for trading?), and making sure you can look out for you and yours?

That's a good start, IMHO. That's what I would start with, anyway.

Fuel might be needed to be stored in bulk. In that case I'd keep a couple of gallons of kerosene to use as a fuel stabilizer in leiu of Stabil, too. Same dif.

Fortifying your home with sandbags may not be a bad idea if you expect to run off armed invaders. I'd keep the supplies on the ready if you expect such a thing.

P.S. Hex, I really like your sig line. I laugh every time I read it! :)

[fluoroantimonic]

Festergrump, how long are you planning on keeping that bleach? You might be a bit disappointed when you go down with giardia or cholera from drinking water you purified with your old bleach. :P If it where me, I would stockpile TCCA and salt, allowing you to make chlorine, which does a better job and the precoursers keep well. Plus it is good for other things. :)

Fortifying your home with sandbags

If you are expecting anything more than a thug or two, I would think this would cause more problems than it would solve, making you an obvious sitting target. After all, if you have a good defense you must have something good to defend. This would probably be an attraction to any group that thought they could overpower you.

Hex I like your ideas, they look pretty good in theory at least. A major flaw I see in your ideas is the availability of materials. Sure you might be able to make barrels of ANFO now, but in a full on civil war type situation (that is what you're talking about right?) it will become unavailable (or extremely expensive) very quickly. As soon as you use anything against them they will immediately shut down all supplies of it. Say bye-bye to any nitrate, acid, toxin, explosive, etc. Fortunately not everything can be regulated. H2SO4 is still needed for lead acid batteries, so that will at least be available from scavenging them. Think your acetylene and oxygen will still be available in any quantity? No way. This will require the clandestine production of almost anything that you need in large quantities.

Fortunately a few things would be actually easier to get than they are now. Like RDX and DBSP :P. Assuming you can successfully decommission a few supply trucks without blowing them to hell, you should have an ample supply of a few things that are commonly used like diesel, gunpowder, etc. And don't forget that all that gunpowder in those big arty shells will detonate happily with a booster! Sadly the gov't will quickly figure out that you're using these things against them and make provisions to stop it. So eventually you will have to rely on the things they can't regulate. And there aren't too many :(

Also say goodbye to any radio, phone, or internet communication, those will all be shut down or jammed. Any remote detonation device will have to be hard wired, timed, or possible IR initiated. This presents big problems.

With powerful satellite technology in hand, you think they're going to let you waltz around painting explosives on things? You'd have to be realll sneaky. And even then, with dogs and/or electronic noses to detect explosive residue, I doubt they would fall for such things very many times. It would still be a hindrance to them though. The point of all that ranting I just spewed was that I think you are underestimating the military's power to cut off your supplies and communication. Of course it all depends on the situation.

All of the above is assuming that your guerrilla movement is deemed enough of a threat to warrant inconveniencing the sheeple with such restrictions.

A few ideas of my own:

When acetylene becomes unavailable, manufacture (or hijack) your own ethylene oxide, mix that with air or better O2 in a polymer foam and detonate it with a little high explosive. It will knock the shit out of personnel and save your high explosives for those big shaped charges. I'm pretty sure it would work just as well or better than acetylene. Fortunately it can be manufactured with relatively little trouble, ethanol and a little sulfuric acid being the only consumed raw materials. It is toxic as hell, but that could be good!

If you had the materials available, I think an very powerful personnel deterrent would be a bursting charge of any decent explosive inside of a canister of SO3 (or oleum). That would seriously fuck up anything nearby, destroying lungs, burning through NBC suits and skin, starting fires, and best of all creating a hugggge cloud of toxic carcinogenic smoke. I think this would be just as effective and terrifying as white phosphorus, and probably easier to make. Not practical in large numbers, just a few well placed ones might have a substantial effect on morale of the enemy. See SMDB for production of SO3.

Use crude launchers that use a hydrocarbon-air mix deflagrated in a chamber to propel things descent distances. Akin to a potato gun. It could launch things like explosives, incendiaries, chemical agents, messages, whatever. But the launchers would be simple and reliable, using virtually any fuel available and being fairly quiet.

Drilling out the back of the bullet in any larger caliber ammunition and filling it with a mixture to make incendiary/tracer rounds that would be effective at igniting flammables and fuel tanks from long distances. Suitable mixtures are listed in many patents.

Stocking up on tetrachloroethylene brake cleaner that can be used to manufacture tetrachlorodinitroethane by sealing it into a steel tube with some NO2 and heating for a while. Very powerful irritant, persistent and solid, would force NBC suits. They say 8 times the power of chloropicrin. And its even quite soluble in chloropicrin! There is also bromobenzyl cyanide, much more powerful and long lasting that even tetrachlorodinitroethane. Also a bit harder to synthesize.

Just my $0.02.

[-=HeX=-]

Festergrump: its the plotline for half life 3! Lol but in, all seriousness, my tactics are using every weapon we can get in large scale destruction. Its where we lure them in and kill them from very far away. Most of the remote guns are just bullets in a pipe with the primer replaced with a ematch. The ematch goes to a simple sensor firing circuit. ANFO is no problem for me at all because there is 2 tons of ammonium nitrate 500 meters away from me right now. For the oxy acetylene search for the thread made by noltair. For MCX search, its OTC and the DCM can be made into phosgene.

Flouroantimonic: the SO3 could be used as a irritant and as area denial. Is the Propylene oxide that easy to make? I think this lab is going to have a lot of fun soon!

[festergrump]

Two tons?! I'm envious, Hex... :)

About the sandbag fortification: The idea is to line the outer walls of your house with them on the INSIDE to about waist level (or higher if at all possible). The house appears to be normal from the outside, but is fairly bullet resistant if the thugs decide that what you have got in the way of food and supplies would better serve them instead of you and yours.

I didn't realize that the bleach would go bad so quickly. It's something I see written about all over in just about every survival forum on the net. Oh, well. The reflux still would be handy for water purification anyway, and make a dandy neutral spirit if pressed into service for such. ;)

[Intrinsic]

I believe chlorine isn't very effective at killing Giardia. Iodine can also be used for water purification, but it has it's disadvantages too.

The most effective method of purifying your water is by simply boiling it.

[-=HeX=-]

Festergrump: yes, a whole 2 tons. Its a very agricultural area I live in, out in the sticks. Thats where I get my ammonium nitrate for nitrations ;)

I understand your point about just looking out for oneself but personally I would be spending at least half my time disrupting the soldiers of the NWO to help the rebellion. The rest of the time I would be looking out for those who I care about.

For purifying water I find that when camping a solar still makes fairly potable water but to make sure I add potassium Permanganate. that helps keep the nasties down :D

For area denial miniature (or full size) claymores would be just the stuff. Linked with detcord in parallel, with interlocking fields of fire, they would be a formidable defence. If the same Firing circuit was to ignite several calcium sulfate and aluminum castable incendiaries surrounded by candles a few seconds later to mop up... And maybe a few other area denial devices could be placed to keep people off your doorstep.

[Bugger]

2 tons of NH4NO3 only 500 meters from you? I am sure the IRA would have liked to get their hands on that, if they were still at war! I hope it is well-secured.

[Alexires]

Hex - *cough* Yeah, while a whole bunch of claymores and detcord would be the way to go, it isn't exactly lying around. Making your own wouldn't be that hard, but then again, if you are working alone (which you probably would want to for safety) it might be difficult to get out and start getting all that stuff yourself.

Remember the RTPB KISS principle. NBK's area denial weapon using a normal room deodoriser would probably be a better way to go than to use something that an army trains against (such as claymores).

Things such as Scabbling is a sexy idea. I love it. You might want to even enhance it by placing charges below the level of the road so the initial Scabbling charge shatters the surface, and then when support comes in later, you hit them with that. Problem with Scabbling is that the explosive force is down, so it would crack the concrete but I would imagine there would be very little airborne shrapnel. Small lifter chargers underneath would change that.

Could even combine it with existing infrastructure (water, gas and electricity). A unit is moving along a perfectly normal road one minute, and the next it turns into a hell of shrapnel, fire, choking gasses and electricity.

Also, I would wait for a bit after the SHTF to make sure I had all my shit together (basics out of the way) and then deal with whatever the proverbial shit is. That way, you have the element of surprise and you keep your head down when they would originally be looking for "dissidents".

Fester - Take it even further. Look at NBK's Security Architecture and expand. Sure, have stuff inside as well, but it wouldn't be so hard to mask sandbags on the outside with a nice little garden. Trees as bollards, some nifty metallic foil on the inside of the walls to defeat IR (not to mention keeping your house warm in the winter). Perhaps some power lines (fake ofcourse) that run over the top of your house to prevent those pesky flying pigs (oh the irony).

Cultivate liking for wild berries (blackberries and other thorny varieties) and perhaps some wicked thorny climbing roses on your walls (helps to cover the glass on the top of the walls).

Of course, you don't want your house to look too much like a fortress because the anti-bikie legislators would be down on you faster than you can say "Patriot Act".

For those of you that don't know, with the ongoing "War against Drugs" and "War against Bikies" have lead to legislation being enacted in some states of Australia that allow police to tell you to pull down "fortifications" on your property in case you are an outlaw bikie.

[-=HeX=-]

Bugger: the shed only has a measly shite padlock on it which only takes a measly bit of picking to bypass. so its my personal ammonium nitrate stash now! The IRA Did not operate in this area but there are a few ex bomb makers that I know. Mostly these fellas used Semtex and potassium chlorate based explosives.

Alexires: detcord only offer a air blower and aquarium pipe and a explosive to make, so ETN detcord Shouldnt take too long to make. And we can use the claymores that we prepared in advence for just such a eventuality. We DID prepare, didnt we? The air blower chemical weapon thingy is what I suggested earlier for area denial. It should work but for pikeys we need something that goes bang, so survivors will not come back.

[James]

IANAE but I think some people have been watchiing to many Rambo films and Army recruitment videos while playing video games. I suspect the best way to strike at an oppressive regime would be to eliminate their forces top down. You have esentially three types outlooks I think, the roughly patriots (who would be your friend, fighting for the nation not the government), the career guy (who will follow whoever is in command) and the opressor (who wants to squash all thought). get rid of the opressors and I think the situation will start to rectify itself. The human element is probably the most susceptible to attack if you're inisistant on taking on the military/agents of evil, If parole (in the mideval sense were adhered to it would about as good as wounding the. A previous poster (on page 1 IIRC) suggested using sappers, which would only really work if you had lotsa manpower or some equipment. (stuff)