H2O2 & Tang?

[Yafmot]

Just listened to the news. Apparently, those sweethearts who were going to blow up nine airliners going from Heathrow to US destinations were going to board with bottles of H2O2 and "Tang" breakfast drink powder. Let's see, there's Citric Acid, a little Ascorbic Acid, some sugar and what else in there?

Anybody ever heard of this shit? Think it'd bring down some "Big Iron?"

[ChippedHammer]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/03/nterror403.xml

Mr Wright described how this main charge would have been detonated by another substance known as hexamethylene triperoxide diamine (HMTD) concealed within hollowed-out batteries.

He added: “The detonator would explode the primary charge of hydrogen peroxide and Tang with lethal effect.”

What the fuck? Looks like something out of a shitty cookbook.

[Rbick]

Yeah I think it is a "k3wl bomb" design. My guess is that it would work similarly to the water gel explosive mixture, which is hydrogen peroxide and aluminum powder, gelled with guar gum. Here is a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvNoUcOJak0) of it on youtube. The H2O2 would oxidize the components of the tang, and the 50% or so of water would be turned into gas, maybe even oxidize more of the tang if the energy level was high enough and become H2 gas.

The tang does contain a large amount of sugar, as was mentioned earlier. In a mixture with a powerful oxidizer like AN, the effects can be quite impressive. See this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN-66pjyvkE) which is a mixture of AN and icing sugar. We also know that potassium nitrate with sugar is used to make home made rocket fuel or fuse. So sugar is an effective fuel. In higher concentrations, hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer, especially when approaching the 50% range. 80% will actually cause organic substances to start on fire upon contact! In conclusion, high concentration hydrogen peroxide + sugar = an energetic and potentially explosive mixture. The acids that are inherent in the tang may also further sensitize the mixture, and other ingredients probably cause it to reach a more gel like consistency, allowing better dispersion of the components.

They had already said the HMTD was made and concealed in a hollowed battery. Plus making it on the plane and drying it for use would be impossible unless you're on a really long flight and you are somehow able to conceal your actions and the smell it makes.

Perhaps someone could test this idea for the sake of experiment? I think this case makes a good point that explosives can be made from basically anything. Watch them try to ban hydrogen peroxide and tang :rolleyes:

EDIT: Here is the stuff that would probably gel it: XANTHAN AND CELLULOSE AND CALCIUM PHOSPHATE

Ingredients found at http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=949492

[Bert]

Was this published on April 1st?

HMTD in a metal tube, with a metal filament and/or wires in direct contact with it. HMTD doesn't like being in contact with metals...

High percentage H2O2 can be made into high explosive mixtures. They don't store well. Dehydrating drug store 3% H2O2 to a concentration suitable for such a mix would be cahllenging to say the least.

[megalomania]

What the... does TOTSE have an arabic section? Is this the best these idiots can come up with, tang? What's next, will they be distilling nitrates out of their urine in the john?

Strong enough hydrogen peroxide is explosive by itself. I think in their case HMTD being made less stable in the presence of metal is a good thing because they are suicide bombers after all, they want it to detonate easy.

These guys should stick to buses, subways, and police stations because their track record with the airlines is miserable. I am glad they don't, but why don't they mix it up a little? Hijack a tanker full of gasoline and drive it into a jew temple or federal building; dress an arab in a nice suit and briefcase full of high explosives and blow up the entrance to the Capital Building while some senator or congressmen is going inside; machine gun a bunch of rich white kids as they get out of a pricey private school; hold hostages at a donors conference at Harvard... There are numerous targets with no security that will get them just as much media attention as a plane crashing in flames.

[Gerbil]

It's hardly surprising, given that their last master plan was to mix 30% H2O2 with flour and detonate with AP. Ragheads have never shown any intelligence or skill when making explosives- even the Palestinian ones, with large scale funding, keep making peroxide bottle rockets that kill more jihadis than jews.

Does the Koran have a verse about destroying the big metal birds in the sky?

[Alexires]

I was just about to say what Gerbil said. I bet it is based upon some bullshit in the Koran.

Otherwise they are drunk on the power that 9/11 got them (if they even did it) and think that they need to keep blowing up "metal birds" to keep up their track record.

You would need A LOT of tang to gel H2O2 into anything even vaguely resembling an explosive.

I was thinking perhaps it was some k3wl variation on an HMTD synth. In tang you have some of the known useful acids that work in the synth of HMTD. Perhaps they think that by sticking together a synth that looks vaguely like a water-gel/HMTD they would get somewhere....

Fuck knows what they are thinking.

[Controlled Chaos]

I am probably ruining the fun, but we all know how excited the media gets over these things. They are ready to turn any nonreactive or harmless product into a terroristic device. I don't know exactly what it is inside of them, I assume they are just trying to sell another story.

When kids are just trying to have some relatively harmless fun with a coke bottle, some dry ice, and water... They turn the children into mad "bombers'. I bet that the threat was not Tang, but a disguised power that was in a Tang container designed to resemble Tang.

[megalomania]

It could be a translation error. I have seen the references specifically saying NOT to use citric acid, or any organic acid in the synthesis of acetone peroxide. Maybe they confused a warning against using citric acid with a recommendation to use it. Hence Tang is chosen as a concentrated source of acid.

[FortiusPenguin]

Aye, I have always been bamboozled by the staggering amount of funding and organization some of these terrorist groups possess, and yet, most of the members here at RogueSci could likely make a more effective explosive device, or organize a more media-stirring attack.

Jeez.

It's like a four year old with a hundred nukes, but he doesn't know how to push buttons!

[AliasBlast]

I'm a little surprised that most people don't seem to think that H2O2 and "Tang" could create a potential explosive mixture. After all, H2O2 is known to detonate in high concentrations (>90%- as already mentioned), and H2O2 with organic fuels can form explosive mixtures with much lower H2O2 concentrations (see Federeoff or Urbanski). However, from the news articles I saw, the concentration of H2O2 they had planned to use was significantly lower, around 15-20%.

In regards to this, I have two questions for anyone who may have experience with H2O2:
1. Exactly how difficult is it to concentrate H2O2 (assume 15%) to something that might be capable of creating an explosive mixture (assume 30-50%)? No, I don't plan on doing this, just looking for a little insight into the potential threat from terrorists.
2. Is it reasonable to think that the citric acid (or any other acid) could act as a catalyst enough to significantly lower the H2O2 concentration needed for explosive decomposition? Does anyone have experience to share or know of any references which discuss this?

[Cobalt.45]

Hey AB, are you familiar w/the old Civil Defence exercise, "Duck and Cover"? :p

[AliasBlast]

Co45 - Yeah.. and I'm guessing it's a familiar concept for many people in this forum :D.

I know that peroxides are particularly inclined to have runaway decomposition reactions (hence the SADT criteria used in industry), and acids as well as other contaminants will increase the chances or such decomposition.

Any H2O2 and fuel mixture would not make a great explosive unless the concentration is very high (too much energy goes to creating gaseous water). But terrorists aren't really interested in great explosives, they want what's easy and available. Making TATP and HMTD doesn't require such a high concentration of H2O2, so I wonder if they would bother (or even be able) to produce H2O2 in a high enough concentration. From what I understand getting anything above 30% can be difficult without using vaccuum distillation or more complicated methods.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Alias:

1. Exactly how difficult is it to concentrate H2O2 (assume 15%) to something that might be capable of creating an explosive mixture (assume 30-50%)? No, I don't plan on doing this, just looking for a little insight into the potential threat from terrorists.

UTFSE, we don't spoonfeed here.

[Cobalt.45]

That's more like the duck and cover I was referring to...

[Sandman1]

Most of the articles i've seen claim the H2O2 was concentrated to 70% and you do not need vaccuum distillation, a beaker and a hot plate works just fine.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Most of the articles i've seen claim the H2O2 was concentrated to 70% and you do not need vaccuum distillation, a beaker and a hot plate works just fine.

Would you mind citing some of these articles that claim H2O2 can be concentrated to 70% simply by boiling?

[fluoroantimonic]

I don't recall seeing where it was concentrated by boiling (at least anywhere near atmospheric pressure), but I do know for a fact it has be made up to about 80% by slow evaporation. I have the paper somewhere, I'll try to find it..

[AliasBlast]

From the older threads on concentrating H2O2, many people claim to get 30+% concentration by simply boiling it, but don't have any way of actually measuring. The "simply evaporating" method is intriguing and also sounds effective, as well as the semi-permeable membrane methods. Either way, it seems that getting the H2O2 from 3% to something that may detonate or at least "explosively decompose" with some fuel or catalyst is possible.

The next question is if the terrorist would or will try to pursue this for future attacks. It's obscure, and not the best use of H2O2, but as its been pointed out, they're not the brightest bunch. Of course, its going to be a lot harder with the current liquid restrictions and 3-1-1 rule. If I were going to go to all the trouble of sneaking something on the plane it sure as hell wouldn't be a bottle of H2O2.

**********************

I fail to see the purpose behind your post... You seem to just be restating what others have said before you. Posts on the Forum must have a point, otherwise you are just committing the crime of post-whoring.

-Hinckleyforpresident

[Nerdlock]

I know writing my first post outside of the water cooler is looked down upon, but I feel like I have something of a bit of value to add.

This past week I decided to concentrate H2O2 by boiling it. I used 50 mL of 3% H2O2 meaning there is 1.5 mL H2O2. I was boiling the mixture at 102 C and around the 1.5 mL mark it stopped boiling because the boiling point of H2O2 is about 150 C. I was left 1.5 mL of what I'm assuming to be near 100% H2O2.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

This past week I decided to concentrate H2O2 by boiling it. I used 50 mL of 3% H2O2 meaning there is 1.5 mL H2O2. I was boiling the mixture at 102 C and around the 1.5 mL mark it stopped boiling because the boiling point of H2O2 is about 150 C. I was left 1.5 mL of what I'm assuming to be near 100% H2O2.

Had you UTFSE (or read the whole thread), you would have seen that simply boiling at atmospheric pressure will always lead to significant decomposition. And also had you UTFSE, you would have seen that the concentration can be measured by density.

Never assume. Always check.

[Sandman1]

Hinckleyforpresident,

Let me clarify, I was refering to the explosive mixture to be used in the attacks. I think the BBC referenced the specific mixture/ratio and concentation in court testimony of both the July 21, 2005 bombing trial and the Trans Atlantic trial.


The reference to the hot plate method was attributed to a lab study which claimed.

They used retail products containing hydrogen peroxide antiseptics, hair bleaches, wood bleach, and laboratory reagents ranging in concentration from 3% to 35%. and boiled them in glass beakers and stainless steel saucepans using 750-Watt and 1,000-Watt electric hot plates. Supposedly they made peroxide concentrations between 70-90%

[megalomania]

Boiling a two component mixture in the open will cause a significant amount of both substances to vaporize. You can't get pure water from a beer by boiling off the alcohol, both substances boil off, albeit at different rates.

You can only concentrate dilute hydrogen peroxide so much by heating in the open, and I strongly doubt a conc even near 70% would be possible just by heating alone. Perhaps if you gently heated a 500 gallon tank of dilute peroxide for a year you could get a few mL of 70%...

This is what you get from listening to the media... They may have boiled their peroxide to concentrate it. They also may have obtained 90% peroxide. This does not mean they boiled it to obtain 90% peroxide!

There is a missing step, just like the crapbooks, that the article does not mention. There is more than one different kind of concentration procedure here. You can drive off a good bit of the water of a very dilute peroxide solution without losing much peroxide by boiling, but only up to a point. They would then have taken that reduced volume and distilled it in lab equipment to obtain higher concentrations.

This is why we don't follow lab procedures from newspapers.

[FUTI]

AFAIK 56% H2O2 can be purchased by factories because at this concentration even H2O2 can evaporate. And if significant amount of H2O2 vapors is formed these can then detonate above solution so no you can't concentrate H2O2 that easy. My experiments with peroxides clearly shows that above 40 degrees Celsius even stable form peroxides start to decompose at higher rate.

[James]

just as a swag they might be adding a dehydrating agent (silica gell come to mind for some reason) or freezing it with something that separate/binds to the water. Or they might be running a fractional distillation rig (not).{/useless rubbish}

*******************

Thank you for yet again restating what others have said before you :rolleyes:.

{/useless rubbish} At least you got that part right...

-Hinckleyforpresident

[Sandman1]

I found the source doc for boiling H2O2. Supposedly its a Sandia National Lab report.

Product Vessel *Heat Source Concentration
35% Lab Grade Glass Beaker 750 W Hot Plate Exploded
12% Clairol Hair Bleach Glass Beaker 750 W Hot Plate Exploded
3% Aaron Antiseptic Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 80% w/w
3% Walgreens Antiseptic Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 77
9% Wella Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 82
9% Salon Care Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 80
12% Salon Care Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 90
12% Clairol Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 88
35% Wood Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 85
35% Lab Grade Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 88
3% Aaron Antiseptic Single Glass Beaker 750 W Hot Plate 79
3% Aaron Antiseptic Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 81
12% Salon Care Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 91
12% Salon Care Hair Bleach Stainless Steel Saucepan 750 W Hot Plate 89
35% Lab Grade Single Glass Beaker 750 W Hot Plate 84
35% Lab Grade Single Glass Beaker 1,000 W Hot Plate 82

[Intrinsic]

Sandman1,

I don't suppose you could attach the document you are referencing, or at least provide a link for us?