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Rbick
April 4th, 2008, 03:32 PM
Savage has come a long way in the last few years. 10 years ago if you had asked for an accurate Savage rifle for competitive long distance shooting, people would have laughed in your face. Recently however, they have made some impressive advances in their long distance shooting design. Their new models are much more accurate, and come with an already build in Accutrigger, which is an adjustable trigger from 1 1/2 up to 4 lbs. Very nice for a factory trigger.

Last year I decided to purchase a brand new .308 Savage for around 950$. It was a LE Choate folding stock model with a 20'' barrel, rifling rate of twist 1:10". Free float and buttoned heavy barrel, all weighing about 12 pounds. I'll have you know that during my military experience, I was not a sniper. I was actually heavy weapons, but I picked up long distance shooting as a hobby after a cross training session with our snipers.

I added a bipod and a 5x15 power scope. The scope was a Bushnell Tactical 3200 Series, which was about 300$. From the reviews I read, it is the best optics you can get for that price. I would have to agree, as thus far it has worked well for me and is exceptionally clear. I am able to spot my buddies bullets when he is firing and can give him adjustments. For those who don't know, while long range shooting, you can watch your shooters bullets (the heat train it leaves mostly) as they travel through the air if you have nice optics. This is usually done with a spotting scope, but a scope on your rifle can work fine too. It didn't fog up during the winter while shooting either, even in one instance were it was -5* F. I also put a nice bipod on, which cost me about 80$.

Now for the fun part. I made sure to professionally break in the barrel. The exact method I cannot pull off the top of my head, but I have it in my notes somewhere. I will post them if and when I find them. Breaking in the barrel properly is important for long range rifles, especially later down the road after putting thousands of rounds through it. I bought 168 grain BT (Boat Tail) Winchester rounds and have stuck with them since. The first few boxes were simply for breaking in, and where shot at a target about 100 yards out. At first, the groups weren't impressive, but approaching the last 20 rounds or so, they started landed inside of each other.

I started to move the target further out, and eventually had it zeroed at 600 yards, which was my goal. At 600 yards, I was able to put 6 rounds within 6 inches of each other (1 MOA). Note that the formulas for windage, drop, ect. will not be discussed in this post, I'll post my notes for those later in a different section. I moved a target out to 900 yards, which was the furthest that the property I was shooting at would allow me. It was a relatively calm day, so wind wasn't much of a problem (there was a breeze of about 3mph out of the south). I traced a life size silhouette of a human on the target. Keeping the zero at 600, I used the bottom mil dot and fired 10 rounds at the target. I then drove down to the target, as it was now over half a mile away. 9 rounds had hit the target in the chest/upper abdomen, all within 9 inches of each other, and 1 had hit the shoulder, a fault of mine I'm sure. I should also note that I was firing in the prone position on a shooting mat.

In conclusion, I really like this rifle. It works great for someone just getting in to the sport and is very affordable. I spent about 1400$ on a system that can accurately engage targets at 900 yards. The shorter barrel, 20'' as opposed to the usual 24'' or 26'', makes it useful in confined urban areas or as a patrol rifle. The folding stock makes it great for storage, better concealment, or carrying.

The bad things I had happen involved the optics and ammunition. The scope was maxed at 600 yards, requiring new rings if I wanted to zero any further. However, the mil dots have made up for this and if I want, I can spend 50$ on new rings, which isn't bad at all. Also, I had two mis-fires when the temperature was around -5*F. The ammunition I was using that day, which was federal because I couldn't get anything else, was not performing well. So this could be due to the ammo, not the weapon. It should also be noted that weapons do in fact "prefer" certain ammo. So no more federal for my rifle.

Has anyone else had experience with a Savage rifle?

BlackFalcoN
April 5th, 2008, 08:50 PM
It's a great rifle I've heard !

The Savage 10/110 series are very affordable rifles and a lot of them are sub-MOA right out of the box without any after market parts.

They come standard with a free floating, heavy barrel and the AccuTrigger allows for fine tuning trigger pull to your own likings without having a gunsmith do it for you or doing a unreliable trigger job yourself.

As you mentioned, there is also a great selection of stocks available for this gun.

The folding stock is nice to have on the 20" .308 version I think; it would make for a compact long range precision rifle that's perfectly suitable for urban deployment & frequent repositioning in, on and around buildings.
Such a gun would provide a great platform for using a sound suppressor on in that environment. ( If you are willing to jump through all the hoops that are required in the US to get your Class3 device ;))

Even if you used regular 168 grains supersonic, the suppressor would still eliminate muzzle flash and the typical discharge sound of hot gases coming into contact with cooler air + it would increase your accuracy and velocity a bit.

How is the folding 'hinge' on your folding stock Rbick since I have an old Choate on another rifle that is not 100% steady when shouldered ?

Something not all people know; the Savage 10FP is also available as an even more economical version, under the name Stevens 200.
It uses the same Savage receiver and most components, but without the AccuTrigger. They also replace the standard Savage stock with an el-cheapo polymer stock, but it still offers the same MOA performance as any Savage 10FP.

From a review on the Stevens 200:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/stevens200_041106/index.html

To get the price tag down without sacrificing quality, Savage did exactly what car manufacturers do--offer a base product that's essentially the same under the hood as the higher end models and then let the higher end models with the extra bells and whistles carry the margin. In terms of automobiles, then, the Stevens 200 can be thought of as the base, with the Savage-brand being the upgrade thus carrying more options such as left-hand, different finishes, wood stocks, and muzzle porting.


I'm considering to buy a Stevens 200 myself if I can find a dealer that sells them where I live, since the price difference is quite substantial (300 USD retail -- I'm still in that phase in life where I can't justify spending 1500$ on any weapon :D ).

I'll probably still have to spend another 50$ or so on a trigger pull job, since the trigger pull on a Stevens 200 is more targetted to hunting than it is to long range precision shooting

If I can't find a dealer then I'll go for the 10FP in .308Win 24" myself. ( The extra couple hundred $ will get me that nice AccuTrigger that is praised by every firearm reviewer as being state-of-the-art)

I probably will put a Harris 9-13" bipod on it, simple sling and maybe upgrade the stock to a McMillan fixed fiberglass stock or the Choate "John Plaster Ultimate Sniper" if I'm not satisfied with the standard stock.

Not quite sure what scope I will put on such a rifle.
Probably I'll go for a lower-end fixed 10x40 or 4-12x40 scope with mil-dot reticle with extended aftermarket windage & elevation dials on it.

Instead of spending lots of money on a piece of overly expensive glass (Zeiss, Leupold, ...), I would instead spend it on a laser rangefinder and a Kestrel wind meter, since top accurate variables are ESSENTIAL in ballistic calculations for 600 - 1000+ yard shots. (As you probably will point out soon in the other thread with formulas you'll post ;) )
Gone are the days where range & wind estimation took years and years of experience and sniper fieldcraft to perfect.
Also I'd use my palmtop with ballistic software to calculate drop & windage adjustments instantly. (kind of like the $$$ CheyTac Ballistic Computer).

The only small minus I see on the Savage 10FP is the lacking of a removable magazine throught a floorplate (something a Remington 700 BDL does have); but the concept behind a long range precision rifle is not firing a lot of rounds and having to reload very often.

No real hands-on experience with a Savage FP10 so far from my side, but I've researched them now for quite some time and I'm anticipating to buy one of these little wonders myself ;)

Rbick
April 6th, 2008, 01:04 AM
How is the folding 'hinge' on your folding stock Rbick since I have an old Choate on another rifle that is not 100% steady when shouldered ?

Its holding up well. Thus far I havn't had too much problem with it.


but I've researched them now for quite some time and I'm anticipating to buy one of these little wonders myself

I would definitely recommend it. It is a good choice, especially for people just getting into the sport, or are low on cash, like myself :o

sporad1c
April 6th, 2008, 04:11 PM
I have a savage model 93 left-handed 17hmr. It has a 20" bull barrel and a 5 round detachable magazine. I put a nikon prostaff 3-9x40 scope on it and paired up with a harris bipod, this gun is a nail driver. I bought it about 3 years ago when I was in the army and have absolutely no regrets. Savage makes a great rifle for a great price. My friend in the army had a savage in 7mm rem mag that he traded for a yugo dragonov. I can't remember what the model # was But, even though it was a great trade, whenever I talk to him he still misses that gun.

LibertyOrDeath
April 7th, 2008, 06:18 AM
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I've heard some great things about Savages on several gun boards. Here's another review:

http://www.snipercentral.com/sav110fp.htm

The Savage 10FP in .308 is supposed to be an awesome rifle for the money. For those who want more power/range and don't mind the recoil or shorter barrel life, there's also the 110FP in .300 Win Mag. I'm seriously considering getting one of these two models myself.

Although I would never part with my semi-autos in calibers like 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39, my interests are increasingly shifting to precision, long-range bolt rifles in much more powerful calibers. A lot of this has to do with SHTF purposes. If I'm trying to do damage to well-armed guys in very strong body armor who can call in reinforcements at any time, obviously the last thing I want to do is get within easy range of their own weapons. Better to fire a couple of well-aimed shots from concealment at a long distance and then slink away. For that reason, I think everyone should try to get a good long-range rifle, and the Savages should be affordable to most people.

Now, for my DREAM rifle -- that would be the .408 Cheytac! :D Too bad it'll be years before I can afford one. :(

Rbick
April 7th, 2008, 06:21 PM
A Cheytac would be nice. Or one of those new .416s that Barrett is developing. Apparently it can make an accurate cold bore shot at 2500 yards :eek: Check out the ballistics at there website here (http://www.barrettrifles.com/ammo_416.aspx).

At 1,000 yards with only 1.15 second ToF is fricken awesome. .308 and .50 at that range is around 1.5 seconds and the velocity has dropped substantially. It looks like they have perfected ballistics with that new .416 round. Packs a huge punch and shoots flat as hell. Now I just need to find a way to get 6,000 dollars to spend on a rifle... Another auto loan perhaps? ;)

For my next rifle, I plan on moving up on the power a bit as well. Not really sure what yet, but I'm on the lookout for a nice how powered round that is effective past 1,000 yards. Any suggestions?

BlackFalcoN
April 7th, 2008, 07:43 PM
Personally, for high precision extra-long-range anti-personal shots, I would go for the .338 Lapua Magnum (8.60x70mm).

This round was specifically developed by snipers, for snipers and is one of the most precise calibers by design. It's effective range is somewhere between 1.600 and 1.800 yards.

It has less kinetic energy than the .50 BMG, but due to it's low-drag bullet design, it has almost the same ballistic trajectory than the .50BMG.

Also, a weapon in .338 Lapua is still very manageable and movable by 1 person, where as most rifles in .50 BMG are very cumbersome.

If you are interested in a gun that fires the .338, look into the Accuracy International AWSM. It is currently in use by US Rangers, Navy Seals, Special Air Service, German forces, the UK, Norway and others + used by various law enforcement agencies & special forces across Europe. At 5000$ it is somewhat expensive.

Alternatively, the Sako TRG 42 in .338 Lapua is another great gun that has many users in the long range precision shooting community. It retails at 3900$

EDIT: Here (http://demigodllc.com/photo/TRG42AWSM/?medium=D100_3955_img.jpg) is an image that shows both guns compared.

LibertyOrDeath
April 8th, 2008, 04:27 AM
Yeah, it's hard to beat a .338 Lapua. I've been eyeballing Armalite's AR-30 in .338 for a while now. It's less expensive than just about any other rifle I've seen in that caliber and is supposed to be very accurate. Also, it's nicely portable at only 12 pounds, and its muzzle brake is supposed to tame recoil amazingly well. The downside is that you pay for the latter with deafening muzzle blast, so you probably want to wear double hearing protection at the range (plugs under muffs).

Another drawback is that there's no AP ammo available for the .338 that I'm aware of, and that's something I put a pretty high emphasis on because of worries about future developments in body armor. (Granted, it would take some pretty damn heavy body armor just to prevent serious blunt trauma from a .338LM.) A couple of companies make monolithic solid bullets in .338, but I haven't seen any that were spitzer-shaped, which I assume would be ideal for long-distance accuracy and penetration.

Both the .416 Barrett and the .408 Cheytac use monolithic solid spitzers as the standard bullet. The homogeneity presumably gives optimum accuracy, but you also get much better penetration than from standard jacketed lead bullets. In a PDF on their website, Cheytac claims its standard (i.e., non-AP) .408 round is a more efficient penetrator of 0.5" steel at 650 yards than .50 BMG AP! Basically, they say that if a .408 won't penetrate your target, you'll need something like an anti-tank round to do so. I imagine the .416 is comparable to the .408.

Too bad rifles in .408 Cheytac and .416 Barrett are on the heavy side -- about 25 lbs, give or take. And then there are those prices! :eek:

Apart from these monster calibers, a great next step up from the .308 might just be something in a .300 Magnum: .300 Win Mag, .300 Rem Ultra Mag, .300 Rem SAUM, .300 Weatherby Mag, etc. All are likely to have punishing recoil without a muzzle brake, but it's not like these are the kind of rifles you're supposed to shoot all day long. Any of them is easily capable of 1000-yard shooting. Best of all, you can load surplus .308-cal AP bullets or solid brass spitzers (http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/banded-solids/) (not just the flat-nosed bullets) into these cartridges.

Here is an image that shows both guns compared.Damn, those look sexy.

Rbick
April 8th, 2008, 10:42 AM
If you are interested in a gun that fires the .338, look into the Accuracy International AWSM

Our sniper team (2/75th Ranger Regiment) used this model in Afghanistan and Iraq. They had it in a .300 win mag caliber however. BTW, I had to go change my underwear after looking at that picture... mmmmm, guns...