Do you believe everything happens for a reason?

[Kaydon]

I feel that in order to believe in such a thing you would have to believe in one of the many god's man has created. The "master plan."

Bad things happen to good people? I suppose, but how about being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Hell, I'm no saint and I have a whole lot of bad luck. To quote Willie Nelson "If it weren't for bad luck I wouldn't have any," but then again it's been said that whatever you go through will shape you into what you are, which I believe... and I suppose things could happen for a "reason" to shape you into what you're "supposed" to be, but then that goes into "master plan" which I feel is poppycock.

I think life is just a game of chance.

How about you all?

[deinewelt]

Well, I can only speak for myself but the “shaping” you mentioned even makes a bad experience a good experience in my opinion. On the other hand, could it be possible, that if you tend to develop your character in one direction you are seeking to make these essential experiences? That would be an argument against the “Master Plan”. Experience is essential for us the human being but does this imply that it is not our own will to go through any kind of trouble?

The point I’m trying to make is: is it really bad luck that we fall into such situations that have a deep impact on us or are we seeking the change? This is pro and contra to the “Master Plan”-philosophy. Right at the moment I feel like I am seeking every shaping experience. The other way, I might be sitting at home doing nothing but getting up for work and getting to bed. Bad luck would be doing nothing and being arrested innocent.

I think you are actually right! Life is a game of chance. But it is our nature to play the game and not the other way round. This is true freedom, isn’t it?

[megalomania]

How does a village full of children getting raped and murdered shape their lives? How does getting up and going to work every day for 50 years and then dieing shortly retiring shape lives?

People like to cling to the idea there is some god watching over them and that everything will be OK, or they are not really responsible for their actions. Religion, like crack and masturbation, makes you feel good for a little while, but ultimately it means nothing.

Such debates are also rather futile because there is no way to prove any side right or wrong.

[Alexires]

Perhaps Mega, Perhaps.
I agree that the whole "Does God exist?" doesn't really have an answer, unless you are willing to kill yourself, but then no one else can find out can they?

But perhaps everything does happen for a reason. Opposed to it actually being for a "higher purpose", perhaps everything happens because someone wants it to happen. Cause and effect, so to speak.

To clarify, isn't it strange that there are certain breakthrough in science, but once someone has been able to such and such, everyone can do it.

It took a few years for the US to make the atom bomb, but once they had, atom bombs were like ass holes - everyone had one.

Same with other breakthroughs. It isn't such a far stretch to think that the mass of human consciousness can effect something as unpredictable and uncertain as reality at the quantum level.

While I don't believe in a God and His Divine Will (TM), I have seen way too many freaky things happen. Things that have been too close for comfort, things that should have killed me, but I walked away, things that are just really strange, to believe that there is nothing out there and everything is completely random.

This is where I disagree with you Mega. I believe that it would/will be possible to prove the effect of the human mind on reality, and I am pretty sure that we will find that your mind effects reality around you.

Well, that is what I think anyway.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I was driving in town and a large truck almost sideswiped me. Inside were some erstwhile Mexicans enjoying their employer's vehicle while swilling booze. They solidly crashed into some poor fuck trying to mind his own business. They did attempt to flee and (of course) did not attempt to help the injured party in the street. It made me fucking sick with anger and revulsion.

Little kids getting AIDS did not upset God's plan by sodomizing in bath-houses, they were born into that agenda. "Born into Sin"? I have a tough time with that. I have a tough time with "Original Sin" wherein the most perfect element of humanity; the newly born, is tagged with loathsome rectitude due to the unseen history of ancestral transgressions.

Personally I don't feel comfortable with believing something that does not make sense. A Random Universe makes sense in the light of the above examples of everyday life.

There is a God because unexplained things annoy those who want a lock on all the answers & because dying is fucking scary (ask anyone over 50). However that in itself does NOT make the concept of a Divine Being incorrect or false. Those who Question will never be comforted by their questions. That, in itself makes for more silence by those who receive no comfort by the maelstrom of cyclic answers & questions.

Therefore, it may really not matter one bit if someone Believes or not. "There are no Atheists in foxholes" is more the hallmark of the Question than the Answer. The concept of "Forgiveness" is indicative of the nature of the question as well. People change over time; as they should.

[ETCS (Ret)]

Very interesting discussion here.

It's taken a while to sink in, but now I am able to see evidence of a Creator very abundantly all over this incredible planet.

Our "environmental programming" from childhood through our formative years often leads us to have too much "faith" in the opinions of "learned" men and "science."

The so-called "religions" and their dogma have propagated many errors by use of methods very much akin to those used for "mind control" in black ops programs.

The health benefits of "forgiveness" are gradually becoming well established. The human flaw of giving ourselves a "pass" while holding grudges, resentments and hatreds against others will always result in a very unpleasant life with ill will and bad health.

Can we as people ever stop doing and thinking bad towards our fellows who are somewhat different than we?

Not without some major re-training. Many expect that will be coming soon.

What is most difficult for me to comprehend is how America has been transformed over several decades into the arrogant, vengeful, unmerciful, deceitful, war-mongering psycho-political machine that we are now.

[Asriel]

Simple Answer, no, I do not, there is not proof.

[TreverSlyFox]

Speaking for myself, yes I do believe everything happens for a reason. But then I'm a Southern Baptist in the Missouri Ozarks and that should tell you everything before you even ask.

[sbovisjb1]

I believe that the decisions that you make to day affect what you are or happens to you in the future. Its solid advice and true. Your destiny is in your hands. For every force there is an opposing force. Those sage words will make you think and realize that you shouldn't wait around for something to happen, you should do it! That said philosophy is like an erection, the more you think about it the harder it gets.

[file]

I believe that the big man upstairs doesn't step in all that often.

As for proving that he does or does not exist, can't happen.

[Emil]

One could write pages and pages upon this type of thread, however I believe it has already been said relitivley well. These discussions don't really gain anything, as people who believe, usually are so convinced that they cannot see the other side of the story. All I will say is things most definitely do not happen for a reason. Nothing is written. You do what you want and consequences come from your chosen actions.

I'll just say this, there are only two real things that exist in this world. Science and Math. Everything else is manmade,and that means everything. Religion is just for the masses, and makes the sheep feel comfortable. Maybe the thought of nothing after death scares them, maybe they were born into a given enviroment and were influenced/forced by family members and friends.

There are 100's of religions, alot of it is related to geographical where abouts. Don't tend to see many christans in Iraq do you????
Each and every religion will be convinced their religion or God is the Correct, or the only one.

Without man, there is no God.

[Rbick]

there are only two real things that exist in this world. Science and Math. Everything else is manmade,and that means everything

Before I start, I want to say that I do not mean to offend anyone with these statements. The above statement confuses me. Math is not natural, it is in fact man made. Math is simply symbols to represent the physical world we live in so we can try and understand it. You don't see math equations growing on trees do you? Numbers are man made, and so are scientific theories/facts/laws. They simply describe our world in our language, whether it be the language of math, English, or whatever. Languages are man made for that matter!

I totally agree with you that consequences are caused by our own choices, and I do believe in free will. But would it not be possible for you to be put in situations with choices, and the route that you chose will determine the outcome? In this sense, would it not be possible that you are in fact put in certain situations for a reason? For instance, lets say you are given an extraordinary chance to save a young child who is trapped in a fire. You are in that situation for the reason of being given the CHOICE to decide whether you are willing to risk your life for another persons. What will it be? Saying everything happens for a reason doesn't mean it will happened statically. I don't think something/someone that created the universe could be stumped by the simple question "Does everything happened for a reason?" and by the simple answer, "No, there is no great mystery to life, just math and evolution"(would this in fact make Math and Science your "God"?). After all, I don't think God is some big dude with a beard sitting in a chair making decisions for us. As St. Augustine put it, he is IN everything, part of everything. You can read it in his book "Confessions", somewhere in chapter 2 or 3, I can't remember. Best look it up for yourself.

I do believe in God and the teachings of Christ, but I'm NOT all that into religion. Religion is just a bunch of rules made up by Catholics 2000 years ago that are not relevant today, or ever were for that matter. Jesus actually taught the complete opposite of religion and legalism! Its unfortunate that people base their opinion on a supreme being on what faulty and imperfect humans do. I am kind to everyone, not just Christians, and I live my life the best that I can, trying to set a good example. Its a feeling of freedom. Not freedom in the sense you can do whatever you want, because in this case you just became a slave to yourself. The idea and meaning of freedom is material for another thread, perhaps in the philosophy section ;)

I am not afraid of death, as I have proven on several occasions (jumping out of airplanes and helicopters into combat isn't exactly safe :D), but it sure gives you a better outlook on life to know there is more than just science and math.

So you guys don't get the wrong idea, I'm not a die hard evangelical creationist. I actually taught a high school class on evolution for a semester and I'm throughly intrigued by the theories of relativity (basically 99.9999% proven) and the newly discovered and gaining in popularity Unifying String theory. I love chemistry and doing chemical equations, as strange as that sounds. Out of all of this and its complexity, is it hard to imagine that something/someone started it all? If you can believe in something as crazy as string theory, you can believe that there is a God ;)

Hope I didn't offend anyone. Responses and criticism are welcome of course :)

[armchairsapper]

I'm somewhat surprised at seeing this topic on a forum about energetic materials.... It just goes to show the depth of the members. Even though I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheism; I find myself agreeing with Rbick. Over all religion is a pretty good thing. For the most part the major ones teach morality and wisdom. It is when one particular person or persons use a religion to forward their own agenda (ie. Jihad, crusades, etc) that it becomes a vehicle for evil deeds; however, when that happens it is more a form of socialism (centralized government) than a religion.

The whole "no atheist in a foxhole" is more of a catechism than anything. I've taken fire. When I did; it was more along the lines of "FUCK!!... SHIT.... This sucks... then: I'm going to kill that bastard!".

[IriOfTheSnow]

Before I start, I want to say that I do not mean to offend anyone with these statements. The above statement confuses me. Math is not natural, it is in fact man made. Math is simply symbols to represent the physical world we live in so we can try and understand it. You don't see math equations growing on trees do you? Numbers are man made, and so are scientific theories/facts/laws. They simply describe our world in our language, whether it be the language of math, English, or whatever. Languages are man made for that matter! :)

By definition, math and science are existence. Depending on your definition, math and science either are the forces which make up existence, or are own devices used to define these forces.

Math equations actually do grow on trees. An apple is an apple instead of a fork because math. You take apart anything in existence to the most basic forms and you get equations describing/defining it's existence. It's the clockwork behind the clockwork. Think of math as the action of a gear train working, instead of the gears themselves, or a prediction of their actions. It's not an object, or a boundary. It simply is. When you add 1 + 1, math is the "=" before the 2, not a rule which makes 1+1=2. Math and science do not go hand in hand with logic necessarily. If you, somehow, manage to "prove" (the tricky part) that there is a god and he surpasses the rules of logic, then by definition math and science will include it.

That's what I trust. Math and science. They are, by definition absolute truths and anything we do to try and achieve these truths. They are not more explanations, they are truths.

As for the whole god thing...
http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_019.htm
I think we can get a laugh out of this.
Remember, it might offend the religious a bit, but the non religious are either going to burn in hell, or face the infinite oblivion of nothingness. Which sucks.

[Rbick]

That comic is hilarious! I love Tesla in the metal speedo, and the dragons.

I guess it does depend on your definition of "what is". Yes science and math describe the way our universe works, but they certainly don't run it. Basically what I'm trying to say is, without language or man, math and science wouldn't exist because there would be no language to describe it. The laws would still exists, but there would be no "numbers" per se, or Quantum theories, or anything. A dog can see that when two people stand in front of it, there is multiple people, but I doubt it can understand the actual concept of numbers or the fact that doubling the amount would equal 4. Therefore, if the most intelligent life form on the planet was a dog, then would math not exists as the dog is not able to understand the concept? I think we are maybe just using different words to describe the same thing, but I think we are basically in agreement that these laws and forces would exists regardless of levels of understanding.

Science and math are not all fact or truth, as there have been many theories proven wrong that on paper, worked very well. However, the ways of the universe had a different idea in mind. This fault arose most likely from our misunderstanding of our world. Would that make our system of science flawed until we found the right answer? Will we ever find it?

I'm not trying to say math and science are stupid in any way, as I have much respect for both fields and actual study both on my free time. However, to think that something greater than ourselves is responsible for creating the laws and forces we use math and science to understand is not ridiculous, or at least I don't think so.

I understand there is a lot of criticism and hatred aimed at those who call themselves Christians, and I have felt the results of those feelings. I also understand that people have a view of those who believe in God as scripture quoting idiots who simply plug their ears when the idea of evolution is thrown at them and who hate people who don't believe the same thing as them. While there are people like that, I personally do not agree with their actions. I don't hate these people and in fact hope that they learn how to treat all people as Jesus taught. Many of them seem to be caught up in rules created by men, or their religion. Like I said, I'm not all that into religion, but religion (search the definition of religion in the dictionary) and faith are two completely different matters. No one is perfect, and who am I to judge? I would never treat someone differently based on their beliefs, and there are many who share my stand point. Many of my friends and members of my family don't even believe the same way I do. The way I personally came to believe was through research, a friend of mine who got me involved in Biblical studies, and my wife. It is not just through studying the Bible I have come to these conclusions. For just one example, actual secular accounts of Jesus can be read, as they did keep records in that time. Anyone can deny that there is a God because of bitterness and hate, which often seems to be the case. Hate is one of the most powerful but easy emotions, and it often prevents people from seeking truth without bias.

I'll shut up now ;)

[fluoroantimonic]

Jesus might have been a great guy, and religion has done a lot of good in the world. A lot of bad too, and which is more prevalent can be debated all day. I have plenty of respect for religious people. But at the end of the day, I can't swallow the whole premise no matter how hard I try. And believe me I try plenty, having a very Christian girlfriend will do that to you... :(

I suppose I can explain everything in my life perfectly well without God, so I feel no need for it(him?).

One of the bigger factors for me is the diversity of religions. There are/were many hundreds of them, all claiming to be the only right one, all seeming just as valid. But then why then should I have blind faith in this one and not another? Hmmm, or maybe they're all wrong...

It seems to all come down to how a person is raised. It is well know that people will see things that are not there simply because they want to. And when you are taught all your life that God exists and have come to depend on it, there is a very strong need to keep that belief even if there is no real reason. Conversely I am so entrenched in my believes that even with some kind of extraordinary proof or motivation, I would have a very hard time truly believing in something that I have never needed nor seen reason for.

Maybe I can just blame Marilyn Manson for all my problems :p

Just my 2 cents.

Love the thread by the way, I like how it has so far stayed pretty friendly and free of bullshit.

[James]

Heh, who says math doesn't run everything. Unless/until someone steps outside of 'reality', observers and comes back with a report we won't know. IIRC I was reading in a religous text which mentioned that science as we know it can not (dis)prove Gods existance, but faith can and in one chapter the protagonist actually sees god doing stuff. another book suggest that the dogma is not important but the intent is.

[hickey]

There are some issues or “things” in this universe that that defies scientific explanation,
As if it’s beyond science, most of us will use religion to find some light in it.

We have to keep in mind that :
The realization of religious truth is based on intuition...
And true scientific understanding is based on reason

The question of the OP was that:
Do you believe in everything happens for a reason…?

There will be no clear logical explanation for such query; but if thought intuitively there should be.:cool:
But that would not led to an amenable agreement to most of us that have been brought and schooled on logical way of reasoning....

[Cobalt.45]

Religion/faith is a place keeper for where knowledge will go, when it's "known".

[James]

replacement for my previous post: I hope that there is a reason for the big picture but freedom in the details. If there is no meaning to anything, and we might as well become nihilists. If the details are set in stone at the beginning of time, then we're just victims of the environment and may as do as our bodies tell us. Note: my argument could lead to a wanking discussion on free will vs. predestination, which is about what this boils down to.

[Positron]

I suppose I can explain everything in my life perfectly well without God, so I feel no need for it(him?).


...There are/were many hundreds of them, all claiming to be the only right one, all seeming just as valid. But then why then should I have blind faith in this one and not another? Hmmm, or maybe they're all wrong...

Yep, what fluoroantimonic said.

I think that the problem with religion is reality. God is in my life? Where! Jesus saves the little children? Is that so!

Heh, my own Mother once said a "Thank you Lord for this Food" prayer one time, when a nice dinner that I bought her was served. I promptly reminded her that Jesus did not put that food there, I put that food there, and that if she didn't believe me I could take it away.

Some people want to believe so badly, that they actually do, even whilst no evidence supports their belief. (*cough cough* WEAK).

As far as everything happens for a reason or not; I think that everything happens. I am perfectly content not knowing if it's for any reason, as I believe that not-knowing is a fundamental part of being human. There are a great many things that I'll never know the answer to. I do know that I've been given a minimum of one life. I'll try to enjoy that life, help my fellow man enjoy his life, and to push forward in understanding the Universe as a race.