WMD and AN

[phrankinsteyn]

Another interesting article and a sad commentary of our times:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080422/ap_on_re_us/school_attack_plot

He is being charged with violation(s) of both federal and state laws.

Something else for our "fearless leaders" to use, against us, in their fight against terrorism and lawlessness.

[ChippedHammer]

Where to begin....

Its clear that the kid was incredibly stupid, buying AN off eBay, keeping a detailed log that was not hidden and it seems that he ordered the stuff in his parents name. Did he want to get arrested?

Although his parents ratting him out was a bit nasty, a severe beating and some psychological help would have been the better option instead of getting him sent to prison for 10 years.

Its perplexing that they would class 5kg of AN as a weapon of mass destruction, if he had 5 tons of it with a suitable primary and booster then that would be a diffrent matter. Also perplexing is the possession charge, whats scary about that is that a whole lot of things would fall under that category. A bag of bolts, pipe caps, plastic jars and even water could be classed as bomb making materials.

Authorities have said Schallenberger could have assembled deadly bombs within minutes with the materials they found

All I see is a kid with a bag of fertilizer and some ill wishes towards his school, It's clear that both the kid and the police have no idea.

They say he was planning it for over a year, a person with half a brain could have done it in a week.

All flash no thunder IMO

[Secong Nature]

Shit, kid would've tried to det it with a spark plug or pipebomb anyway.
This much shit over a kid like this, no wonder the US is so fucked up.

[megalomania]

They can charge you with whatever they want, and they usually do, but making the case stick is another matter. Most of the charges get dropped by court time (when the media forgets all about the case).

Does anyone have references to actual laws and statutes with the criteria they use to define what a weapon of mass destruction is, and what the sentencing guidelines are? This "weapon of mass destruction" charge sounds like some Orwellian nightmare straight from INGSOC.

While every home in America has bomb making components in the strictest sense (batteries, wires, fertilizer) the prosecutor will have to prove his case to a jury first. If he had pipes and caps already drilled with fuse or detonators, sketches and diagrams of completed explosive devices, and of course a journal or notebook detailing his tactical plans, I would say that seem very guilty, and a jury would think so too.

This guy also completely throws the whole mad bomber disturbed loner personality profile completely out the window. A smart, well adjusted, sociable, and popular kid with a bright future plotting something like this means ANY student is a potential threat. I will even go as far to say I bet the kid gets off because he is so normal. If he keeps that confident smiling up in court, a jury may not convict, or he will get a reduced sentence.

They are not going to give a teenager life in prison when he never even hurt anyone. He will be made out into some dreamer acting out a creative fantasy that never would have been committed. Would he have been capable of actually taking a life? Probably not, and that is an important distinction. Building a bomb is a boys-will-be-boys behavior, blowing up a school is the act of a creepy loner with a grudge against the world.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

They say he was planning it for over a year, a person with half a brain could have done it in a week.

All flash no thunder IMO

Generally, those with the intelligence to construct a large and effective charge also have the sense to not go about killing people. It's the dumb ones who don't know jack-shit about explosives or chemistry who mail pipe bombs to strangers and try to bomb their schools.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Actually for all the 'thunder" in the article; we don't really know shit! The kid buys a nitrate. The kid writes down fantasies, fine....He doesn't act upon them for well over a year and an intervention by the authorizes blossoms.

Most every comment here has great validity...culminating in the largest question of, "was this really a threat of a potential bombing?" or was it just a construct of circumstances?

[phrankinsteyn]

Megalomania,

I found the law, for the state of South Carolina, concerning the weapons of mass destruction charge. I will list it in its entirety, plus the penalty, at end of post. It is long but interesting. These statues/laws are from 2002 so there may have been some changes (probably for the worse).

They do have to prove their case, beyond a reasonable doubt, but what about the financial cost (to the average person) lose of job and reputation among family/peers, etc, etc.
They also put fear into the sheeple. There is a old saying attributed to the Chinese "Kill 1 scare 10,000". And in this case arrest/imprison one and scare 10,000. I believe that is their goal.

And now for the law :) :

Article 7
Bombs, Destructive Devices, and Weapons of Mass Destruction

§16-23-710 Definitions.
For purposes of this article:
(1) "Bacteriological weapon" and "biological weapon" mean devices which are designed in a manner as to permit the intentional release into the population or environment of microbiological or other biological materials, toxins, or agents, whatever their origin or method of production, in a manner not authorized by law, or any device, the development, production, or stockpiling of which is prohibited pursuant to the "Convention of the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and their Destruction", 26 U.S.T. 583, TIAS 8063.
(2) "Bomb" includes a destructive device capable of being detonated, triggered, or set off to release any substance or material that is destructive, irritating, odoriferous, or otherwise harmful to one or more organisms including, but not limited to, human beings, livestock, animals, crops or vegetation, or to earth, air, water, or any other material or substance necessary or required to sustain human or any other individual form of life, or to real or personal property.
(3) "Bomb technician", "explosive ordnance technician", or "EOD technician" means either:
(a) a law enforcement officer, fire official, emergency management official, or an employee of the State, its political subdivisions, or an authority of the State or a political subdivision, whose job title includes the designation of bomb technician, explosive ordnance disposal technician, or EOD technician and whose assigned duties include the rendering-safe of improvised explosive devices, destructive devices, old or abandoned explosives, war relics, or souvenirs while acting in the performance of his official duties; or
(b) an official or employee of the United States including, but not limited to, a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, who is qualified as an explosive ordnance disposal technician under the federal, state, or local laws or regulations while acting in the performance of his duty.
(4) "Building" means any structure, vehicle, watercraft, or aircraft:
(a) where any person lodges or lives; or
(b) where people assemble for purposes of business, government, education, religion, entertainment, public transportation, or public use or where goods are stored. Where a building consists of two or more units separately occupied or secured, each unit is considered both a separate building in itself and a part of the main building.
(5) "Device" means an object, contrivance, instrument, technique, or any thing that is designed, manufactured, assembled, or capable of serving any purpose in a bomb, destructive device, explosive, incendiary, or weapon of mass destruction.
(6) "Detonate" means to explode or cause to explode.
(7) "Destructive device" means:
(a) a bomb, incendiary device, or any thing that can detonate, explode, be released, or burn by mechanical, chemical, or nuclear means, or that contains an explosive, incendiary, poisonous gas, or toxic substance (chemical, biological, or nuclear materials) including, but not limited to, an incendiary or over-pressure device, or any other device capable of causing damage, injury, or death;
(b) a bacteriological weapon or biological weapon; or
(c) a combination of any parts, components, chemical compounds, or other substances, either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device which has been or can be assembled to cause damage, injury, or death.
(8) "Detonator" means a device containing a detonating charge used to initiate detonation in an explosive or any device capable of triggering or setting off an explosion or explosive charge including, but not limited to, impact or an impact device, a timing mechanism, electricity, a primer, primer or detonating cord, a detonating cap or device of any kind, detonating waves, electric blasting caps, blasting caps for use with safety fuses, shock tube initiator, and detonating cord delay connectors, or any other device capable of detonating or exploding a bomb, weapon of mass destruction, or destructive device.
(9) "Distribute" means the actual or constructive delivery or the attempted transfer from one person to another.
(10) "Explosive" means a chemical compound or other substance or a mechanical system intended for the purpose of producing an explosion capable of causing injury, death, or damage to property or an explosive containing oxidizing and combustible units or other ingredients in such proportions or quantities that ignition, fire, friction, concussion, percussion, or detonation may produce an explosion capable of causing injury, death, or damage to property. Explosives include, but are not limited to, the list of explosive materials published and periodically updated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
(11) "Hoax device" or "replica" means a device or object which has the appearance of a destructive device.
(12) "Incendiary" means any material that:
(a) causes, or is capable of causing, fire when it is lit or ignited; and
(b) is used to ignite a flammable liquid or compound in an unlawful manner.
(13) "Incendiary device" means a destructive device, however possessed or delivered, and by whatever name called, containing or holding a flammable liquid or compound, which is capable of being ignited by any means possible. Incendiary device includes, but is not limited to, any form of explosive, explosive bomb, grenade, missile, or similar device, whether capable of being carried or thrown by a person acting alone or with one or more persons, but does not include a device manufactured or produced for the primary purpose of illumination or for marking detours, obstructions, defective paving, or other hazards on streets, roads, highways, or bridges, when used in a lawful manner.
(14) "Over-pressure device" means a container filled with an explosive gas or expanding gas or liquid which is designed or constructed so as to cause the container to break, fracture, or rupture in a manner capable of causing death, injury, or property damage, and includes, but is not limited to, a chemical reaction bomb, an acid bomb, a caustic bomb, or a dry ice bomb.
(15) "Parts" mean a combination of parts, components, chemical compounds, or other substances, designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device.
(16) "Poisonous gases" mean a toxic chemical or its precursors that through its chemical action or properties on life processes, causes death or injury to human beings or other living organisms. However, the term does not include:
(a) riot control agents, smoke and obscuration materials, or medical products which are manufactured, possessed, transported, or used in accordance with the laws of this State or the United States;
(b) tear gas devices designed to be carried on or about the person which contain not more than fifty cubic centimeters of the chemical; or
(c) pesticides, as used in agriculture and household products.
(17) "Property" means real or personal property of any kind including money, choses in action, and other similar interest in property.
(18) "Terrorism" includes activities that:
(a) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of this State;
(b) appear to be intended to:
(i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(c) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of this State.
(19) "Weapon of mass destruction" means :
(a) any destructive device as defined in item (7);
(b) any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors;
(c) any weapon involving a disease organism; or
(d) any weapon that is designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life.
(Chgd. by L.2002, Act 339, §13, eff. 7/2/2002.)


§16-23-715 Penalties for possession.
A person who, without lawful authority, possesses, uses, threatens, or attempts or conspires to possess or use a weapon of mass destruction in furtherance of an act of terrorism is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction:
(1) in cases resulting in the death of another person, must be punished by death or by imprisonment for life; or
(2) in cases which do not result in the death of another person, must be punished by imprisonment for not less than twenty-five years nor more than life.

[megalomania]

HA! Under that definition a dry-ice bomb is considered a weapon of mass destruction. Basically the fedgov is using the current fear of terrorism to pass laws that make virtually any kind of criminal activity fit into a more ominous legal bracket. Setting off a pack of firecrackers to scare the neighbors dog now becomes deployment of a weapon of mass destruction affecting national livestock. The jury now thinks little Timmy tried to eliminate the beef industry.

I wonder if the jury actually buys these laws? Who in their right mind could equate a few pounds of fertilizer as being a weapon of mass destruction? Are we supposed to think having a pipe bomb carries the exact same penalties as an atomic bomb? The fedgov is trying to brainwash the sheeple into believing every firecracker is a bomb, every vial of chemical is a chemical weapon, every person who disagrees with the government is a terrorist...

Soon every crime will be treason, every disagreement will be treason, every dissent will be treason. The fedgov will circumvent our rights and freedoms more and more until we are all either the condemned or the hangman.

[ChippedHammer]

All the prosecutor has to do is throw the words 'domestic terrorist', 'school massacre' and 'terrorism' around and the the jury will most likely buy it. If they have some sort of solid evidence on the other charges it wont take much to win the jury over completely.

Don't forget that the chances of having someone intelligent sitting on the jury will be very low, from what I can gather most of the general population in the USA (and here) are easily won over with big scary words and a smile. Thats been pretty much proven since most of your population seems to be behind either McCain, Hillary or that nigger Obama.

[Dave_H]

It's odd that the federal laws are more "relaxed". They don't consider it a WMD unless it has 4 ounces of explosives!

I'll quote this since it's from the FBI website and some of the members may not want to click the link:
What is a Weapon of Mass Destruction?

Any explosive or incendiary device, as defined in Title 18 USC, Section 921: bomb, grenade, rocket, missile, mine, or other device with a charge of more than four ounces;
Any weapon designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals or their precursors;
Any weapon involving a disease organism; or
Any weapon designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life.

From FBI webpage here: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/wmd_definition.htm

Interesting that the last example describes more of a radiological weapon than a nuke. You would think they would have added something better describing a nuclear weapon.
Dave

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I have ranted about Ebay for a long time now and I hope that some of you will become more circumspect in your interaction with that damned company. God only knows how this investigation got legs but I'm willing to bet what could have been addressed with a direct discussion became a true "Federal Case" - due to forces that are better described as vile.

[Rbick]

Ammonium nitrate is a fertilizer that was a component in the deadly 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.

Lord help us. They keep ranting shit like this in the media and every chemical will be illegal. ACE hardware will go out of business when all they can sell is crazy glue, and I bet the gov't could even find a reason to ban that.

The kid was dumb though. He deserves time for planning an attack on a school. Killing innocent people is wrong, whether they are sheeple or not. Whether he would actually go through with it is another matter.

As for his parents, they can go straight to hell and burn. Anyone who does that to their kid should be stoned to death in public. This shows they were more worried about themselves than their child who HAD a bright future until they fucked it up. How about taking the stuff away, punishing him, and leaving it at that?

I am surprised at the outlines of that Weapon of Mass Destruction law. My question is: When will the people decide that they have had enough?

[megalomania]

Crazy glue uses cyano acrylates, cyano sounds like cyanide, cyanide is a deadly poison used by terrorists, we must ban Crazy glue to protect the children!

I assume this case started when the parents ratted the kid out. They could have sent him to a shrink, or had him committed at a private institution where a real doctor could have given him time and attention to figure out if he is really a danger to himself and others.

Nope, the parents got the state involved, and threw their child into an uncaring system filled with overworked social workers who only know the boy as a number. Now the parents have to pay legal fees to fund the state, money which could have helped their son, they have exposed their lives to the blinding spotlight of public opinion, scorn, derision, ridicule, and humiliation, and they have forever ruined their son's chances of having a career or relationship.

The people will decide they have had enough when they, or someone they love, are locked up in a fedgov prison for crimes they did not commit, or for crimes that should never have been made illegal. By then it will be too late.

[Bugger]

It looks, to me, as if any case that the Pigs could concoct in order to frame that high school student should fail, because the laws refer to possession of a "device" of alleged mass destruction as being a necessary element of guilt (there is no evidence of the existence of such a "device" in this case, only 5kg of NH4NO3 bought legally on EBay, which could also be used as a garden or lawn fertilizer); and also refer to "with the intention of" or "intended for" as another necessary element of guilt, which looks like being very hard, if not impossible, to prove.

[iostream333]

It's tragic that impudent and careless people resort to things such as this. One might even conjecture that he just bought the AN as a ploy for attention, as sick as that sounds. The odd part is that the article didn't mention if he actually possessed any documents pertaining to the actual construction of a bomb (i.e. methods of initiation, synthesis of primaries and so forth), which seems rather essential in such a plot.

It's also concerning that he was actually charged with "possession of bomb-making material". Does everyone who has some ammonium nitrate lying around fall in this category?!

[Charles Owlen Picket]

It's also concerning that he was actually charged with "possession of bomb-making material". Does everyone who has some ammonium nitrate lying around fall in this category?!


YES. The laws we have been discussing are [the] prosecutor's padding so that the State can throw a punch when no one died, etc....And it's very true that once he's in the system, he's fucked to the point of dry & silent tears.

There are now MANY laws in the USA, Canada, & the EU designed to nail someone deep into the legal coffin when no crime of overt violence exists. This was the result of actually countless "Columbine" type school shootings, "Mad Bomber" scenarios, what-have-you. Johnny actually can be prosecuted for very common household materials if he runs his mouth & tries to get attention.

But in reality, we very rarely ever have the truth to most of these situations and the individual could be a serious fuck-tard who really wanted to hurt someone or did.

I agree with Rbick deeply on this issue as I despise people who harm the innocent or make a community less safe through their psychotic vomiting of hate.
Anyone who has lived with a neighbor who, through their mental illness or drug / alcohol intake made others live in dread or fear, knows what relief it is to see the problem wheeled out of his abode on a gurney with a sheet covering it's full length or lead away, squirming to get comfortable in his cuffs.

The problem with stories like these is that we don't know if the person was deserving of deep punishment or was over-reacted to by those who could (have helped).

[Hirudinea]

Ok so I'm stupid, but could I just make some comments on this law...



Article 7
Bombs, Destructive Devices, and Weapons of Mass Destruction

§16-23-710 Definitions.
For purposes of this article:
(1) "Bacteriological weapon" and "biological weapon" mean devices which are designed in a manner as to permit the intentional release into the population or environment of microbiological or other biological materials,

Would a burning bag of poop left on a porch fall under this definition? Bad news for Bart Simpson!

(2) "Bomb" includes a destructive device capable of being detonated, triggered, or set off to release any substance or material that is destructive, irritating, odoriferous...

Odouriferous? Like a stink bomb!? Bad news for pranksters!

(7) "Destructive device" means:
(a) a bomb, incendiary device, or any thing that can detonate, explode, be released, or burn by mechanical

Burn by mechanical means? Like a lighter or match? Bad news for smokers!

(8) "Detonator" means a device containing a detonating charge used to initiate detonation in an explosive or any device capable of triggering or setting off an explosion or explosive charge including, but not limited to, impact or an impact device...

We've all seen that video so a feather setting off Tri-Iodine, so bad news for birds I suppose.

(10) "Explosive" means a chemical compound or other substance or a mechanical system intended for the purpose of producing an explosion capable of causing injury, death, or damage to property...

Dry ice bombs?

(12) "Incendiary" means any material that:
(a) causes, or is capable of causing, fire when it is lit or ignited; and

Again with the matches! Must have been drafted by non smokers!

(13) "Incendiary device" means a destructive device, however possessed or delivered, and by whatever name called, containing or holding a flammable liquid or compound, which is capable of being ignited by any means possible.

And ligters again, rock concerts will never be the same!

(14) "Over-pressure device" means a container filled with an explosive gas or expanding gas or liquid which is designed or constructed so as to cause the container to break, fracture, or rupture in a manner capable of causing death, injury, or property damage, and includes, but is not limited to, a chemical reaction bomb, an acid bomb, a caustic bomb, or a dry ice bomb.

They actually list dry ice bombs! Damn!

(16) "Poisonous gases" mean a toxic chemical or its precursors that through its chemical action or properties on life processes, causes death or injury to human beings or other living organisms.

Including Pool Chlorene? Get used to green pools I guess.

However, the term does not include:
(a) riot control agents, smoke and obscuration materials, or medical products which are manufactured, possessed, transported, or used in accordance with the laws of this State or the United States;
(b) tear gas devices designed to be carried on or about the person which contain not more than fifty cubic centimeters of the chemical; or
(c) pesticides, as used in agriculture and household products.

Well of course they don't ban tear gas, go figure.

§16-23-715 Penalties for possession.
A person who, without lawful authority, possesses, uses, threatens, or attempts or conspires to possess or use a weapon of mass destruction in furtherance of an act of terrorism is guilty of a felony and, upon conviction:

(2) in cases which do not result in the death of another person, must be punished by imprisonment for not less than twenty-five years nor more than life.

25 years!? Holy Crap, I'm staying out of South Carolina!

Well those are just my impessions, I could be wrong, but it seems if they want they can get you in dixie!

[gaussincarnate]

If they ever came down to prosecuting people for having pool chlorine, anyone with a pool would be immediately screwed, since without chlorine the pool would turn into a brothel for mosquitos, also known as "deadly biological agent containment and dispersal devices" (that are only effective against children and the elderly) and can cause symptoms as debilitating as itchy skin and red bumps and occasionally malaria.

For that matter, it should also then be illegal to sneeze on, be stabbed by (blood transfers diseases), have sex with, breath on, touch, or stare at (in case the government starts cracking down on THE EVIL EYE) anyone, since God forbid anyone should ever get sick, because that is always indicative of a terrorist attack. Makes you glad that our entire country is operated by people without even basic knowledge of science ([cough] Kansas [cough]), doesn't it?

Next thing you know, little Billy is going to be blowing out the candles on his fifth birthday cake when the BATF breaches his house and tries him as an adult for arson.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I think we're not picking up on the concept. The laws are there for padding for prosecutable efforts...NOT FOR IMPOSITION, IN & OF THEMSELVES. Let me digress for a bit.... There are always going to be items that are poisons. There are always going to be pointed or heavy-blunt items, there are always going to be flammable items as well....

These laws are available to make prosecution flexible and more adaptable to a give scenario wherein - some fuck-tard trips on his dick, gets caught, & the authorities want choices on how deep to drive the johnson.....

[Unsunghero]

Well, everyone is probably going to hate me for this post, but what the hell.

Insofar as intent was established this is a wholly just accusation..I mean what further proof do you want? The prevention of crime involves a certain amount of theoretics. This kid had the time line and materials to commit such an act, however it doesn't mention if he had technical knowledge in the plans. Now, being punished for weapons of mass destructions is CLEARLY excessive, but multiple charges of conspiracy to commit murder..but..for one person..would not be.

Please don't say he wasn't capable, because I guarantee you that at his age I was more than capable of carrying out a plan along those lines. I knew the general mechanics of AN/FO, and most of the more basic stuff discussed here. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure my 1st semi-successful ANFO det was when I was ~14-15, about a kg.

I challenge those who are angry about this verdict, where is the bright line as to where it is just to apprehend someone off theoretical vs pragmatical evidence? This line MUST be drawn at some point, if it isn't, then lives aren't being preserved efficiently.

Anyways, if I died because some little piss ant 17 year old wasn't charged after this, I'd be pretty pissed.

I personally believe that the parents should have sent him to a private institution..but in the hands of the state this is exactly what should have happened.

[phrankinsteyn]

The point I believe that some of us have missed concerning this law and laws like this is that they can be used against you/us at the system's discretion. It does not matter if we like someone's life style or not. What we allow or condone to be done to others we are allowing eventually to be done to ourselves or someone we care about, but who others may see as not deserving of justice/fairness. All of us here (on the forum) walk a fine line in our hobbies/interests that "normal" people would find disturbing. Most of us are a heartbeat away from sitting in this "kids" court room seat.

If this kid had assembled the components and was on his way to school to fulfill his mission then I would agree that extreme intervention was necessary. I do not believe he had assembled anything. How many of us here "may have" assembled something that if we where turned into/or stopped by the law would not have been in the same place this kid is now?

I do not believe that any of us have the monetary resources that the government possesses. They can drag things out as long as they need or want to (for political or career motives), in order to wear you down financially, mentally and physically. And as I stated before, even if you eventually beat them (charges dropped) or are found innocent you have lost and they have won.

I read a post on the forum somewhere concerning firearms. I am going to paraphrase it as I cannot remember who posted it or exactly how it was written: Possessing a gun in itself should not be illegal, using it to commit a crime should be. I believe this is a fair analogy to most if not all laws/things.

Here is a link to (some) abuses of laws that the government/law enforcement has used against the innocent that may explain my point better than I can. It will be up to you whether you believe these types of incidents take place or not.

http://www.gainesnet.com/police2.htm

[ChippedHammer]

School bomb plotter wanted to kill Jesus

Now thats a catchy headline :)

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/29/teen.charged.ap/index.html

Sounds like the kid has lost his marbles, I'm sure prison will be great for his mental health :rolleyes:

Authorities also seized a computer that shows he searched Web sites for making bombs, a shotgun, carbon dioxide canisters, "hundreds and hundreds" of matchsticks, and more cassette tapes that they have not yet heard, Townsend said

He wanted to make matchsticks and CO2 canisters eh :o

Quality piece of writing there :cool:

[Gerbil]

If he was planning on detonating the AN with match head powder in a CO2 canister, I think we can all sleep easy tonight. The kid is obviously a nutcase, but hardly capable of creating a "weapon of mass destruction" :rolleyes: .

He needs to be put in a secure mental hospital, not become a prison bitch. Unfortunately, he's likely to be used as an excuse for tighter restrictions on chemicals and information. After all, killing Jesus suggests he was against Christians...the ragheads are against Christians, therefore he is actually a Muslim terrorist. Political propaganda can usually overrule logic in the average person.

[486]

The thing is that people will always be able to take a little bit more. On a gun forum there were people talking about how the people who say "You'll take my guns from my cold dead hands!" are usually the ones who end up bowing to pressure from the government and end up telling the cops about all their friends with hidden guns.
People usually will not stand up for themselves if their freedom is eroded slowly,The last ~100 years in the USA has shown that. They only banned one thing at a time, like going from unrestricted automatic weapons, to needing prior approval for ownership, to no longer being able to import/make them, and soon to not being able to own them, then to not being able to own "military style" rifles/pistols, then any semi-auto, then none at all. So long as they are spaced evenly then sheeple will tend to not notice where it's going.

Insert any example, I just used firearms because they are more familiar to me.

By the way, can I use this as my signature? ↓
Building a bomb is a boys-will-be-boys behavior, blowing up a school is the act of a creepy loner with a grudge against the world.