RPG-7 Explosive Material

[M16Rifle]

Hi everyone,

I think some of you here know that in Lebanon (in the Middle East) clashes errupted between different parties (mainly pro and anti government parties),
which are similar to the civil war in the past.Yesterday ,in the city where i live in Tripoli North Lebanon first clashes started ,they where so aggresive you cant image it , rpg-7 grenades flew above our house and exploded in the air making a sound that shaked everytime the whole house.Fighting lasted for approx 14 hours.As i went to our balcony at 11 pm to see the tracer shots flying in the air ,suddenly i heard a "whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiz" which seemed to be very fast.Rapidly i jumped to ground because i knew they shot a rpg-7 shell in our direction.I closed my ears but didnt hear any explosion other than something falling to ground and breaking the glass of our car.I looked down from the balcony and saw a rpg-7 shell lying in the ground which had no warhead anymore.The next day i could see where the shell hit.It was some meters above my head in the wall.I took a stick and removed the head of the shell form the wall ,the shell didn't explode (thats why i still live) and most of the explosive material was still in the head of the shell which i removed with a knife and stored in a bag.

It is a yellow to orange powder ,exactly the same of that of TNT.I burnt some of it and i could smell something which is similar to nitric acid containing some amount of NO2 gas. I can make a photo of that powder including some particles of the shell.

Now what do you think , is it TNT or Picric acid ( i know some of you might say that picric acid is impossible because it is aggresive to metals ,but inside the shell there was something which didn't allow the powder to get in contact with the metal case) ?

Ok some of you might not believe the story but it is true ,we could sleep the whole night because every minute rpg-7 shells exploded in the air which made a horrible sound.

greetings from the middle east,

++++++++++++++

Do not self-sign your posts - The_Duke

[Enkidu]

If it dissolves easily in a basic solution, it could be picric acid. You could take a melting point test, if you have the ability.

[Bert]

Picric acid is very unlikely, just as you said it is too reactive for any modern armaments maker to use. Even if the weapon was protected from contact with metal, the handling machinery in the plant would still be exposed and prone to creating dangerous metal picrates in the manufacturing area.

The mixture is most likely of TNT mixed with RDX or PETN. Many countries have made many variations of the RPG-7, there is no telling what exactly the charge may be.

In the future, I would avoid handling UXO of any type- You can't stay so lucky every time.

[Lewis]

That sounds like a terrifying experience. If I read this correctly, an RPG struck the wall a few meters above your head?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but wasn't TNP last used in large scale munitions in the first world war? Are middle eastern weapons that outdated?

[megalomania]

The solubility of picric acid in water is about 100 times greater than TNT at room temperature. 100 mL of water would dissolve little more than 1 mg of TNT, so by solubility you should be able to make a fairly precise determination.

However, you are using an assumption you have either TNT or picric acid. Who knows what the hell could be in some Lebanese rocket. If your compound is soluble all you have determined is that you do not have TNT.

[generallisimo]

M16, wow, 2x in a row you were very lucky. I would love to see a photo.

[Guerilla]

I agree with Bert, it's almost certainly RDX/TNT (or Pentolite) based blend, IIRC RDX/Wax type of compositions have also been used in some of these warheads. The paper between the shell and explosive could be there simply for having acted as an insulator in the casting process to help prevent formation of cracks and voids. Hell, a quick qualitative way to rule out PA would be to simply see if it stains your hands. :D Most other common explosives and related components would not yield much pH change in water, either..

But like said, you're pushing your luck. Even if it's just a relatively stable piezo-fuze (even this cannot be taken for granted in this case though), it's still damaged. At the very least you could have moved it remotely, or say, dissolved most of the main charge out of the shell before proceeding.

[M16Rifle]

Ok here are some photos i made today (sorry for the bad quality).
You can cleary see the orange powder not burnt completely on the warhead.
There is more explosive powder in the hole of the wall ,but it is dangerous at that time to remove everything out of the hole ,since fighting started again.

I had the booster of the rpg shell but a policeman took it from me :mad:

Anyway this weapons is a lord of war (ask me :D)

[Rbick]

Wow crazy experience M16. I hope you and your family are ok.

My guess would be TNT/PETN or RDX/TNT mixture as Guerilla said. This seems to be the common mixture in those types of weapons. I'm fairly certain that TNP was no longer used for munitions when the RPG-7 was invented, so that rules that out, along with other reasons previously stated. So now you can set it off and probably not arouse any suspicion, as there is already gun fire and explosions going off.

I know it was said before, but handling UXO is dangerous. I have heard too many scary stories about people who are professionals getting maimed or killed by UXO. Definitely approach it with caution. I wish you best of luck over there, and keep your head down.

[tomu]

The explosive filler of a PG-7 warhead varies from country to manufacturer to the time it was produced.

But picric acid was certainly never used in any type of a PG-7 warhead.

ou could however find warheads with a flaked TNT, cast TNT, TNT/PETN or TNT/Hexogen filler. The russians used a TNT/PETN filler. In the newer ones there is also an octogen based explosive filler used.

[Cordtex]

I can see that something has exploded in the warhead section of the B-7 round. Can you estimate how much explosive you go out of the warhead? I can see from the photo that the base detonator has set off in a way but there was no complete detonation. It may have occurred something else, they might have pulled off the piezo impact fuze so that the round explodes only at the end of its trajectory. And while the rocket hit the concrete wall, the impact deformed the aluminum "shell" and maybe dispersed the filler explosive.

[M16Rifle]

Thank you Rbick and the other members,

For sure it was not a complete detonation because the sound that other rpg-7 shells made when detonated were horrible ,the hole house starts shaking ,especially at night when fighting suddenly started and some shells wake you up like an idiot :D. But this one made only a whiiiiz and went into the wall and falled down breaking some car windows.

Cordex it was a great amount ,you can still clearly see on the ground outside
some cakes and the hole in the wall is full of this explosive powder.I could have made a photo of the other part of the shell including the booster ,but a policeman took it from me.

The day before this thing happened i was searching in the internet for a rpg-7 shell cutaway ,i am very fascinated by this weapon so i wanted to see how it looks inside, but for my bad luck i didn't find a picture.The next day when the shell hit the wall i got what i want :D a nice cutaway of an RPG-7 shell :p
plus some good luck that it didn't kill or hurt me.

[Cordtex]

Well, by booster you don't mean the base detonator but the rocket motor, right? I'll try to attach some photos of a stripped round of PG-7. And how come that policeman only took the "booster" from you and left the other stuff like explosive material and the shrapnels?

[M16Rifle]

Cordtex yes i mean the motor , i think he took it from me because it looked a bit dangerous :D since it was still in good form ,but the explosive material was still in the warhead which was in the hole of the wall , i took it the next day out of the wall with no annoying policeman around :cool:.

I've read somewhere about the rpg-7 operation but i did not really understand how can the shell get that fast if it is at first only accelerated by a nitrocellulose mixture and then a motor is ignited which i can hardly remember of what it is made about (probably nitroglycerin ). I would be thankful if someone can give me some information about how a rpg-7 shell is transported to its target.

[Cordtex]

Ok... The PG-7 round has three parts.
1- The booster: This is the part which launches the rocket out of the RPG launcher (cordite type NC/NG). It has a turbine like thing at the rear composed of four small machined fins, which upon launching makes the whole rocket body to rotate to enable the four longer fins to retract backwards to stabilize the rocket flight to the target. When fired the PG-7 is launched from the tube at a speed of around 100m/s.
2- The rocket motor: This one contains the rocket propellant and the fins/nozzles section in the front section. After launching this motor ignites after some 10m's from the launcher and attains a speed of about 300m/s. If you noticed there are 6-8 nozzles inside the front fins behind the shell. Most of PG-7 rounds self-detonate at around 920m's.
3- Shaped charge/shell: This is the part which kept you awake the whole night of the street fights. It has a nice big base detonator, which is set off electrically when the nose fuze (piezoelectric) hits the target. Contains pentolite as explosive filler around the copper cone to form the shaped charge.

[Jetex Kid]

In general, RPGs employ shaped charges and these require a *uniform* detonation velocity to function.

This rules out powdered explosives because powders lack uniform density and hence have variable detonation velocity so that the shaped charge will not focus on a point. Also powders make inefficient use of the limited volume available, compared to explosives at 100% density.

Would Composition B - the world's military standard - turn to fine powder on impact if it did not explode? At high pressure, it might fuse together and resist powdering.

Maybe it was anthrax.

[Hirudinea]

I was just thinking, mabye what you found wasn't an RPG-7, it could be a homemade copy of an RPG-7, see this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasin and if it was then there could have been anything in the warhead.

[Woland_91]

I don't think it was a shaped charge. It is true that RPGs use warheads which have shaped charges in them and are employed as anti-armor weapons. But in this case, M16 was shot with one of these, which makes it more likely to be a frag warhead. Maybe RDX and a detonator? It could be that the pressure sensitive cap didn't function properly, and so did not explode. Take care M16!

[Enkidu]

I was just thinking, mabye what you found wasn't an RPG-7, it could be a homemade copy of an RPG-7, see this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasin and if it was then there could have been anything in the warhead.

Do you happen to have any construction info about the Yasin?

[Cordtex]

I don't think that Hamas can export arms from Gaza to Lebanon. You can see in the photos that it's an PG-7 rocket for sure, check the plastic funnel in the stand-off section of the warhead :)

[M16Rifle]

Hirudinea i am 100% sure it was an rpg-7 ,somewhere on a big shrapnel was something wirtten in russian.The yasin would have looked very different.

Cordtex i was asking myself what is the use of this plastic funnel ,do you have information about this ?

[Cordtex]

M16Rifle: I think that the plastic funnel is just an insulator for the piezo electric impact fuze, which generates an electrical charge upon impact and this charge is conducted to the base detonator through the shaped charge linear.

[Woland_91]

I don't think that Hamas can export arms from Gaza to Lebanon...

Seconded. I remember reading somewhere Lebanon's main supplier of RPG-7 is Iran.

[M16Rifle]

Next time i will take some grams of the explosive material and try to detonate it.
I will most probably use Acetone Peroxide in the blasting cap.
But with chinese made Acetone(Nail polish remover) :D On the bottle there is labeled 100% Acetone ,but i think it is 10% acetone :p since the reaction needs about 5 days to complete.The Hydrogen Peroxide is lebanese made 13% :o
I hope i will get a successful detonation.

[Hirudinea]

i am 100% sure it was an rpg-7 ,somewhere on a big shrapnel was something wirtten in russian.

You can see in the photos that it's an PG-7 rocket for sure

Oh, ok, just a thought.

I don't think that Hamas can export arms from Gaza to Lebanon.

I'm sure they could be traded through intermedaries or some local could produce them.

Do you happen to have any construction info about the Yasin?

Unfortunatly no, I just found it looking through Google, so try a google search and this address http://clearinghouse.infovlad.net/ might have some info.

[tiac03]

The Yasin is a pali made RPG-2. Someone posted a video about it somewhere on the site.

As for the Functioning of the RPG I uploaded a video to the FTP a while ago explaining it (in arabic), I also uploaded Raffica special , and there is a e-book in there (In arabic unfortunately for me) that explains lots of the weapons including the RPG-7 with nice pictures.

link to the Raffica special:
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/RPGDec06.pdf