barrel rifling

[dharcast1]

I would greatly appreciate any ideas on how to rifle gun barrels as easily as possible at home.

[deezs]

If you have a barell, into which you could make rifling at home, it would surely explode! If there would be any easy method for this, you could find it on the net. If you need rifled barell for your zip-gun, buy a disarmed gun, and use it's barell.

------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

[This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 09, 2001).]

[Bitter]

If getting hold of deactivated guns was that simple, I doubt he would be trying to make his own.

[atropine]

ahhh, the wonders of a metal lathe. I made my own rifling tool (4 turn) if you want any information for making your own then i can russle up my blue prints. You will need a lathe though. Or for a small fee i could rifle a tube for you out of 1" (diameter) highspeed steel. As long as you arent going to use it and agree to a disclaimer (i dont want my ass on the line)

------------------
all wize men have unwize fantasies < ^ >

[JWD85]

atropine-

I would appreciate it if you would post the blue prints for the rifling tool you made.

[Predator]

In a dream I had, a drill bit worked just fine on a 1.5 inch aluminium rod with a 9mm bore.

A 9.5mm drillbit was hammered into it, allowed to twist on it's way in, then pulled back out, allowing it to turn in the opposite direction.

It worked well and didn't explode.
Not that it would have mattered, it was just a dream

[zaibatsu]

Gun barrels should rotate themselves, and have a stationary drill bit inserted, with a hole down the middle, with water/oil being pumped in.

However, we could forget the hole down the middle, and just bore it slowly.

[viper01]

If you get a flat rectangular steel plate and cut a slot about 3mm wide across the plate diagonal.
You can then roll the plate steel around a metal bar to form a pipe with a slot twisting round the pipe.
You then get a piece of bar that will fit inside the home made pipe and drill a hole through the centre and make a 3mm-taped hole through the side for a guide screw.

You then fit a long steel rod through the hole in the centre of the bar, at one end of the rod you fit a handle preferably one that can spin on the shaft.
Now comes the hard part at the other end of the rod you have to make some sort of rifling file that is up to you.

You could make a spring-loaded filing device that can make 2 cuts 180 deg apart at the same time.
Old files can be cut up with an angle grinder for the rifling files.
If you are going to make large calibre barrel .45 or larger this system could be used without too much precision of construction.

This is actually one of the ways rifling used to be done it isn’t to hard to work out the angle of the twist you want and cut the slot accordingly.

If you want I can post a picture of this on this thread.


------------------
Happiness is a big bang!

[This message has been edited by viper01 (edited July 13, 2001).]

[zaibatsu]

A picture would be great viper, thankyou if you can!

[SMAG 12B/E5]

Deezs, don't give up so easily. All the information necessary to build rifling equipment and barrels is available in the number 5 "Foxfire" series, Bill Holmes "Workshop" series and "The Modern Riflebarrel" and other books by Harold Hoffman. There is plenty of material available axel shafts, special tubing and my favorite, one inch "suker rod" (used in oil wells and cheap) that is made of 4140 alloy. The Hoffman series is especially good and contains information of the fabrication of reamers and related equipment.

[deezs]

You throw yourself to the mercy of the rules of phsics, if you use homemade guns for shooting. If you use it for self defence... You are an idiot. You never know, when it explodes. It can happen with shotguns, if some sand or dirt gets into the barrel, that they explode, or earlier AK clones, in .22 caliber, that they crack, when contact with water.
You had better, to buy a gun. A rearmed model from the WWII is far better, than a homemade zip gun.
Here, in Hungary, you can buy an AK-74 under 100$. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif)
There's just one person (if you are smart no one), who knows, that you have a gun. Just the one, who sold it for you. The mag holds 30 rounds. One bullet is enough for him.

------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

[Anthony]

Half the fun of homemade firearms is the challenge of building them scratch, you can also be creative with the design.

Sure there's a risk using them (depends how good a gun smith you are) but there's also a risk buying illegal firearms.

Some dirt/sand in the barrel of a zip shotgun isn't going to burst the barrel...

[nbk2000]

R.T.P.B. Rule #1: Trust no one. (Especially a criminal with a loaded gun. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif)

Any half intelligent gun dealer is going to give you the gun without the firing pin. They come in a seperate bag for you to install later, after the deal has been completed.

One general store I heard of had a fully loaded Mini-14 hanging behind the counter in full sight of any potential robbers. They'd even hand it to you to look at, but you'd be fucked if you then tried to jack the place with it.

Why?

Because the firing pin had been removed but there's a fully loaded sawed off double barrel under the counter. OOPPS. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[Fingerless]

The best rifle makers rifle their barrels by hand, with a type of ream and take very thin passes (Thousandths of an inch at a time). To make a good barrel you don't need a ton of money, but a ton of time, and skill, and patience!

[twinkle]

here is a link for some nice info on rifling
http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

[zaibatsu]

Or even this page... http://www.xtremeaccuracy.com/Rifle_Barrel.htm

[shooter3]

"Barrels And Actions" copyright1991 by Harold Hoffman H&P Publishing 7174 Hoffman Rd. San Angelo, Tx. USA 76905. 320 pages. From barstock to completed barrel. This tech. manual tells you everything including how to make the tools. I forget what I paid for it, but it was very reasonable.

[atropine]

i done a few using the single pass cut idea. But im going to use a twisted bar as opposed to filling the ready rifled. As the twisted square bar is pulled through the square hole it causes it to twist.

[HMTD Factory]

Electrical Discharge Machining...they produce the smoothest barrel, but only if you got electricity and timehttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[Scientist]

ahhh, the wonders of a metal lathe. I made my own rifling tool (4 turn) if you want any information for making your own then i can russle up my blue prints.
Still willing to post them?

[raptor1956]

while I have researched DIY rifling with interest against the day (and it will come!) when we cant buy a barrel, most gunshops, even here in the people's republic of Australia, sell second-hand barrels at a reasonable price. At this stage licences aren't required, and .22's are cheap enough to experiment to your heart's content.

[MMIV]

u could use the a drive sharft of a car, lathe and drill to the desired shape, but you need 2 place the steel under intense heat to soften the steel, so it easier to work with. also, i had an idea of making rifling head to contain a slight angle,so that the head can twist on it's own and would not the factory barrel as a guide. but one word of advice, only make barrel it u really need to. :)

[Anthony]

"Scientist", that post was made over 3 years ago, and atropine has ceased to be a member here since then. So don't hold your breath.

[Scientist]

Anthony, thanks for the hint. :)

[MrResearch]

Electrolytic rifling is the most easy method to produce a high quality profile without any expensive tools.

See here: http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/extrude-hone/electrolytic-machining-and-rifl-ing-ecr/19736-35480-_2.html

[Bugger]

It should be possible to fashion an improvised rifle or pistol barrel out of high-pressure steel or stainless steel piping, with an extra-thick wall, as used for high-pressure fluid transport in chemical process plants. Such piping is produced by extrusion at temperatures near the melting-point, through an orifice with a central mandrel make of a hard refractory material, rather than by drilling out solid circular bars or similar. Perrys Chemical Engineers Handbook has a section dealing with standard diameters and guages (wall thicknesses) of piping, with pressure ratings.

[iHME]

If the pipes pressure rating matches the cartridges (eg. is bigger) I don't see why it would not work.
Of course it would be a smoothbore weapon if it is not rifled, but thats obvious.

[festergrump]

Smoothbore should be fine for a subgun, but as of now rifled barrel liners can still be had for the hobbiest which can be pressed into such seamless tubing with a hydraulic shop press if the IS/OS diameters are consistant and compatable.

A reliable source for them can be found here. (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(ldcctm451ooxyuzgh4wfty45))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID=483).

[486]

The electrolytic rifling seems to be EDM actually. When I saw the link I thought it involved coating the smooth bored blank with varnish or something, and scraping a groove in the varnish for the rifling. then you use electrolysis [like the 5TH grade science fair electroplating thing] to "cut" the exposed metal away, If you run electrolyte through the barrel it should "cut" it evenly [in my mind, I can't figure why it wouldn't].

[MrResearch]

The electrolytic rifling seems to be EDM actually.

No.

When I saw the link I thought it involved coating the smooth bored blank with varnish or something, and scraping a groove in the varnish for the rifling.

It's exactly this method, hence electrolytical rifling as an fluid electrolyte is used. I wondered which coating would work best, e.g. would be easy to apply, insulate good and be - at the same time - easy to scratch off the barrels surface wherever the grooving is desired.

[486]

Oh, I think I understand, the electrolyte isn't conductive enough to eat away anything more than a few thousandths of an inch from the cathode. Right?
Otherwise wouldn't it just take metal away from the whole inside diameter of the blank?

[MrResearch]

Oh, I think I understand, the electrolyte isn't conductive enough to eat away anything more than a few thousandths of an inch from the cathode. Right?

No..the amount of metal can be calculated with the current over time and how much electrons are removed for the metal (iron) to become a soluable ion.

For example, you have want to remove 10g of Iron. That's about 0.178 moles. Then you need to remove 3 electrons per atom. That's 0.178*3=0.53

The 0.53 has to be multiplied with the number of atoms per mole to get the complete amount of electrons we want to remove from the iron:

0.53 x 6.02214 x 10^23 = 3.226x10^23 = x

1 Ampere is about 6.241 x 10^18 electrons / second = y.

x/y= 51690 seconds or (51690/3600=)14.3 hours to remove 10g Iron with 1A or to be more precise, 14.3 hours to ionize 0.53m Fe to Fe(3+) ions.

Otherwise wouldn't it just take metal away from the whole inside diameter of the blank?

That's why the complete barrel has to be covered with somthing non-conductive - for example plastic spray or solved polystyrole. When this is done, the place where you want the grooves (in this case the helix) has to be scratched inside the barrel. This is the most difficult step in the whole procedure because the helix has to be very flawless and must not have a single spot where the plastic spray isn't properly removed.

But even with these difficulties it's by far more easy for amateurs compared to the other rifling methods.

[Lenkers]

So, our plan is :

1. Buy a SMT or SHT, because we can´t drill a deep hole
2. Coat it with something none conductive, like epoxy glue :confused:
3. Scratch grooves in the coating
4. Put it in a tank with a conductive fluid
5. Apply current
6. Wait a few hours,
7. tadaahhh, we have a nice barrel :D


The problems are making the scratches inside the barrel and the electric part.

Any ideas on solutions?

[iHME]

Isn't the electrode hollow to spray electrolyte to push out the filings and stuff that gets "eaten" away?

At least the last time I read about EDM/ECM it said something like that.
But I also remember reading about it on a thread on The HomeGunsmith Forums (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi)
And it was about rifling about a barrel! So it fits our interests perfectly! :D
Someone there had also built a crude machine sometime ago but had no real prints for it and had rigged it up from scrap IIRC.

I DO have exelent pdf on EDM/ECM somewhere on my computer, but its ~00:20 here and I need to catch my sleep, so I'll upload the pdf and try to find a link to the thread tomorrow.

I also have it printed out so if I have accidently deleted it I can scan it if nothing other helps. The pdf has some simple diagrams on the circuitry and similar stuff.
Tough my memories are a bit vague, it is something like more than 6 months after I read it and I read it at the shitter, so I had more pressing maners to pursue :o

Edit:

Okay, found the topic @ The Home Gunsmith Forums (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=2;t=21070;st=0)

Read the thread completely, it is basically the same stuff we are after.

A site about ECM theory (http://www.eod.gvsu.edu/eod/manufact/manufact-281.html) A good read.


Attached the pdf I was talking on the above post below.

[Lenkers]

Huh? Some smart people already wrote books about home made EDM´s :eek:

EDM How To Book by Ben Fleming

Build an EDM by Robert Langloi


http://www.build-stuff.com/EDMCompareBooks.htm

Some links I came across:

A Mini-EDM System (http://pico-systems.com/edm.html)
Homemade EDM -scroll down (http://home.earthlink.net/~a_wake/)

[MrResearch]

I wonder why we are talking about EDM :rolleyes:

It is extremely complicated to produce usable barrels with EDM, let alone the neccessary machinery.

There is a huge difference between EDM, ECM and the method I referred to, which is seemingly the only non-mechanic method an amateur could use. The method does have nothing to do with EDM and only a bit with ECM.

[486]

That's why the complete barrel has to be covered with something non-conductive - for example plastic spray or solved polystyrole [polystyrene?]. When this is done, the place where you want the grooves (in this case the helix) has to be scratched inside the barrel. This is the most difficult step in the whole procedure because the helix has to be very flawless and must not have a single spot where the plastic spray isn't properly removed.


With the picture of the process it looked as if they were using the resistance of the electrolyte to cut just the grooves, with the little electrode pads on the mandrel thing, maybe with no coating. Also you might do that to help with only "cutting" metal from where you scratched the grooves in the coating in case there was a few dots where the coating didn't cover.

The HomeGunsmith Forums (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi)

I was just about to post fuzzbean's rifling machine right before I read your post! :D Too bad you need to subscribe and pay to see the "library" they have that probably has the plans in it...

[iHME]

Too bad you need to subscribe and pay to see the "library" they have that probably has the plans in it...

So true. But even with free access they are excellent forums.
Also one can find real gems by lurking at the "New File and Information Uploads" subforum.
This week someone posted there prints for the P08 Luger, damn complicated weapon to machine tough.

[jlwilliams]

Many years ago I saw a simple rifling machine at a historical crafters exhibit, I think it was called the "Ozark Folk Center" in Arkansas. I wish I had pictures but I will try to describe it.

It was built onto a long table, twice as long as a barrel to be rifled plus some working room. The barrel was clamped down in blocks on the table, lengthwise to the table. The cutting tool was on the end of a long rod (wooden I think) with the helix cut int the length of the rod. That rod was fed into the bore through a block on the table that had a guide hole and a peg that rode in the helical slot making the rod turn as it was fed into the bore. Each pass cut a groove in the barrelm Multiple lands and grooves were indexed by turning the barrel in it's blocks. A six sided barrel yielded a six land and groove rifling job. The gunsmith on sight told me that was why old guns of the era were generalu hexagonal on the outside, to facilitate this type of early American rifling machine.

I was 15 years old at the time, and even then an avid gun nut. I hag asked the question "How did they do rifling" at the end of his scheduled presentation and was rewarded with the long lesson that no one else stuck around to learn. Their loss.

Living here in America, I can get used or new barrels or blanks no problem. For now. Those of you living in places where you can't buy them may well want to build a rifling table. On the other hand, shotguns are inherently easier to make barrels for, and relatively easy to make amunition for. It may be easier to make a 410 or a 12g rifled slug mould and just shoot a slug that stabilizes itself. Food for thought. Make an amunition to suit your barrel options.

[iHME]

I have plans for that kind of rifling machine!

http://rapidshare.com/files/152047050/How_to_Build_the_Antique_Rifling_Machine.pdf

It uses mainly lumber for everything and if I understood correctly, rather easy to make.