Limestone Ammonium Nitrate (LAN) problem

[noelboy121]

Please could someone help?

I purchased a bag of Limestone Ammonium Nitrate (LAN), it is the only fertilizer in my country containing AN and it has a 28 percent nitrogen content. I noticed this fertilizer has no numbers on the side like 34.0.0. After extracting the fertilizer by dissolving in hot water and letting the solution cool and filtering off the limestone I was left with what I considered to be AN solution, I say this because the liquid (once most of the water had been boiled off) crystallized fairly quickly once exposed to a cold dish I used for evaporating. I dried the powder in a warm oven only to find that it did not burn when mixed with sugar as so many have reported it doing.

Is this because I have a lower nitrogen content than the fertilizers available in other countries, or is this because AN does not burn when mixed with powdered sugar. I ask this question because I cant find any information on this specific fertilizer, the closest I get is chalk ammonium nitrate which does have numbers on the bag thus telling me I have something different.
Also will this specific fertilizer be sufficient for making APAN.

I ask that you please don't ban me for this as I have done loads of searching and have not found an answer yet.

Thank you in advance

[Charles Owlen Picket]

You searched, you came up empty. The question is intelligently framed. The subject interesting and has bearing on continued material gathering, etc. It is also challenging as it may have been confused with Lime-nitrogen in search engines.

Frankly I believe the question not only has merit but the answer may be quite important. What country (& area within that country) are we talking about here? Who is the manufacturer?

[ChippedHammer]

Can we have a brand name or some photos of the product?

[noelboy121]

I am from South Africa, the product I am Reffering to is labled Wonder and marketed by Efekto (www.efekto.co.za). after speaking to someone at their offices I was informed that the numbering for this product was LAN 3.2.1 (28)Nitrogen I hope this is enough info, let me know if you need anymore. Here is a photo of the product.

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m406/noelboy121/07072008118.jpg

PS thanx for the speedy response

[Rbick]

I know KNO3 will burn when mixed with sugar, which is a common mixture for homemade smoke bombs. AN and powdered sugar is actually an explosive mixture, but I doubt it would burn. I could be wrong but, try some other tests such as solubility, melting point, ect.

You could even just check to see if an endothermic reaction results when it is dissolved in water. Dissolve X amount of your filtered powder in X amount of room temperature water, place a thermometer in the solution and record the change in temp. If the temperature decreases drastically, you probably have AN. Don't try only one test, do several to make sure you have the right stuff. Good luck :cool:

[AUK2k7]

I think that your problem is that when extracting the AN from the limestone AN mixture, you put it in hot water, so surely the ammonium nitrate would react with the water and leave you with the powder.

[FUTI]

IIRC 880g AN disolves in 100g of H2O. What amount of water did you used? How much crystaline product did you get? What is the expected amount of AN based on nitrogen percent stated for the product you started with. Report some math back here where people can help you. Also play with AN with more care.

I remember that I seen an TV story after Oklahoma federal building explosion where one chemist working for some agricultural firm that produces fertilizers claimed that he had patented a way to render AN from fertilizers inactive for ANFO use. I don't remember did he said making fertilizer inactive or preventing the fertilizer to be an source of extractable AN (which seems to me as an almost impossible task). I think he said something about clays of some kind used in that process (I guess he used some montmorilonite or bentonite just to make it insensitive for explosive use).

[noelboy121]

Alright I have done the following tests. I dissolved an amount of AN into an equal amount of H2O at room temperature, the water temp fell from 15 degrees to 4 degrees in approximatly 5 seconds. Next I proceeded to melt some AN in a small pot, unfortunatly my thermometer only goes as high as 125 degrees but i did observe the thermometer slowing down when it reached 120 which in my experience with this thermometer tells me that it was nearing the correct temp, probably another 10 degrees at the most would be the correct temp(130 - 135) if you know what I mean. So I am pretty sure i have AN. My question is as follows will the fact that I have AN of a 28 percent nitrogen content affect this products ability to explode as AN 34 percent would, and if so what is there that I can do about it. Like I said in my previous post the is all we get here in my shit hole of a country and for me to stop this research now would most certainly break my heart considering how many hours I have put into it. Any help would be appreciated.

With regards to your question FUTI i will notify the company and ask them what the expected amount of AN is per kilo of the product based on the nitrogen content. I presume thats what you are looking for correct. Thank you all for your help you guys rock.

[fiknet]

As said before I don't think AN/Sugar burns like the KNO3 equivalent. You could also try a more practical way ;) eg. Make an ANxx composition and see how well it dets/if at all which will give you an idea of how usable this AN is.

[tomu]

Have a look at this :

www.suidwes.co.za/wesmark/safety/LAN.pdf

kinda MSDS for LAN. It states that the fertilizer contains 80 % AN and 20 % Calcium Magnesium Oxide.

A google search of: "limestone ammonium nitrate fertilizer" listed the site at the first page of search results.

[noelboy121]

Thanks guys, I will be conducting some tests with AP in very small amounts and will post my results accordingly. According to the pdf TOMU posted Sasol claim the product is explosive when mixed with organic and fuel oils which is somewhat of a relief. Once again thanks for all your help.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I remember that I seen an TV story after Oklahoma federal building explosion where one chemist working for some agricultural firm that produces fertilizers claimed that he had patented a way to render AN from fertilizers inactive for ANFO use.


I remember that on alt.engineering.explosives Jerry Hurst went ballistic on that one (this was before he got tired of posting & had health problems). He de-bunked that one with a single long post and named the patent and "inventor". He was furious as the solution (pun intended) was completely mythical.

Ammonium nitrate is basically a damn tough product to make nonexplosive. That's why the "Fertilizer Institute" started "Be Aware For America" and then pushed Calcium Nitrate on the tobacco farmers. The remedy came in the form of Calcium Nitrate & got them to stop taking heat from various sources. However; ammonium nitrate is still available in truck deliveries; The F.I. just didn't want it bagged.
An unproven situation in the USA developed in 2001. Many large stores started on their own (Home Depot) to stop any and all products that got named in a letter from a source within the Clinton administration.

These situational response actually started from instances of experimentation by mostly young people playing with energetics rather than actual terror issues. The story of powdered aluminum is actually very strange. It was said by several news releases that a great deal of this material was in the "Branch Davidian compound" and that was what brought on the vicious fire when ATF agents fired burning tear gas shells. It also became public through a large national paper (Washington Post?) that the purchase was made through a pyrotechnics manufacturer (named as FireFox!).

I have since researched this and did find a news account that came damn close but lost the name of the newspaper. The unusual effort of the CPSC in collusion with the Justice Dept (via "The Letter") did seem a little extreme for such a thing unless there was some background into what "Military" or "explosives-grade aluminum" powder was. The general public just does not know these things without an advertising agency-level popular news story being promulgated through the media.

Effective "Big Lies" always have a grain of truth to make them appear believable.

[Alexires]

noelboy121 - Ammonium Nitrate has a set amount of nitrogen in it. It is impossible to have pure Ammonium Nitrate with a lesser nitrogen concentration than other pure Ammonium Nitrate.

In other words, Ammonium Nitrate is Ammonium Nitrate is Ammonium Nitrate.

That PDF that was posted seems a little....off.

See, Ammonium Nitrate in water should be basic, but the "MSDS" lists it as having a pH of 6. Also, I ran a search for the CAS number of the so called "Calcium Magnesium Oxide" and that was a no show. If it indeed has Calcium Oxide and Magnesium Oxide in it, then the respective hydroxides should salt out of solution fairly easily if it is 20% (low Ksp values) which can then be decanted off to give a mostly ammonium nitrate solution.

If it contains limestone as the name states then that too should be insoluble in water. An interesting question you ask.

When any quantity is dissolved in water (up to the maximum solubility of AN), are there any undissolved solids?

[noelboy121]

Well Alexires, when I disovled the solution in warm water I was eventually left with a grey residue that lay at the bottom of the solution, this must obviously be the lime stone and something else. I now for the first time understand what AN really is and can honestly say I was not aware that AN is AN is AN regardless of packaging or quantity. I was led to believe that my product was of a lesser quality (28 percent nitrogen) as apposed to the 34 percent sold world wide (with the exeption of my country of course).

Thank you for clearing that up. I hope to conduct some test this weekend should my schedule allow it. To all of you thanks again for all help, stay safe.