Amateur chemist raided, for doing experiments!

[iHME]

It is a residential home in a residential neighborhood,” she said. “This is Mr. Deeb’s hobby. He’s still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. … There are regulations about how much you’re supposed to have, how it’s detained, how it’s disposed of.”


@ Make (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/08/home_science_under_attack.html)
@ Slashdot.org (http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/08/12/182243.shtml)
@ Telegram (http://www.telegram.com/article/20080809/NEWS/808090323/1008/)

This looks bad for US-based chemists on this board.

Slashdot sums it pretty well:
Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"

[slarter]

When I retired from the military a couple of years ago, I took everything I had to the demo range and disposed of it, because I was afraid of crap like this.

Massachusetts is bad and Kalifornia is not far behind. Also, this sets a bad precedent for the leftist loons to exploit.

[tmp]

Like Maryland and California, that state is run by whackjobs. So Mr. Deeb
was violating zoning laws. Maybe. It still sounds like bullshit to me. Another
translation for Ms. Wilderman's actions: I'm a stuckup bitch of a civil servant
who is dissatisfied with my job. Therefore I'm going to make Mr. Deeb's life
miserable to show him and others who's really in charge ! After all I have to
justify my job to the taxpayers.

[Rbick]

They cut out the part where the old hag started to grin and said "WELCOME TO 1984, MOTHER FUCKERS!", proceeded by a drawn out satanic laugh.

This is really bad. Not only did they BREAK into his house, they also STOLE his possessions. They did all of this without a warrant and still aren't returning his stuff? I think there is another form of government where this would be ok. Its called communism. The government actually committed crimes here; 1. Armed robbery 2. Breaking and entering. This guy could even try and sue, but with everyone being so scared of chemicals he would probably lose. I'm so pissed that ignorant people will look at this and say "Well its a good thing they caught him, he was experimenting with chemicals!". They have done a good job at keeping the sheeple afraid of chemistry by keeping them ignorant and portraying chemicals as EVIL. Those bastards better stop pushing, cause someone is going to start pushing back.

[AcMav]

Sadly I happen to live in this state. It seems the only reason he got hit here is because the Firefighters entered his home to stop a fire and saw chemicals and panicked. Once the firefighters panicked I bet it got out of control fast. I would get scared too If I walked into even a small fire and saw containers of powdered aluminum and AN sitting around.
I can understand the governments concern if the chemicals were as horrendously stored as stated in the article from the Worcester Telegram. However I would have assumed they would have issued him a citation or order to fix his storage. If I ever begin to have any kind of Laboratory in my home I'm going for BATF certification and having my storage checked so i can tell my local officials to screw off if they ever give me grief.
The only thing that bugs me is the fact that they called him out on Zoning issues? I find it ridiculous I cannot have a recreational lab in my home, I derive vast amounts of joy experimenting with chemistry, why does it have to be industrial. I'm wondering if this guy has been pattening a large number of processes from his home, In which case I could understand a fine.
I Think overall the intentions were good, the follow through was way too harsh, I would have to see what this "Lab" looked like to judge for myself.

[Loveofchaos]

Sadly I happen to live in this state. It seems the only reason he got hit here is because the Firefighters entered his home to stop a fire and saw chemicals and panicked. Once the firefighters panicked I bet it got out of control fast. I would get scared too If I walked into even a small fire and saw containers of powdered aluminum and AN sitting around.


I would be scared too if all those chemicals were actually there, but in the MAKE: article, this was stated:
"Authorities concede that the chemicals found in Deeb's basement lab were no more hazardous than typical household cleaning products. Despite that, authorities confiscated "all potentially hazardous chemicals" (which is to say the chemicals in Deeb's lab) from his home, and called in a hazardous waste cleanup company to test the chemicals and clean up the lab."

I think if they found Ammonium nitrate or powdered aluminum they would have tried to justify their unwarranted search with by saying that they had found "Main ingredients to building bombs!!"

You know the press is gay about that kinda stuff. I think this whole thing is utter BS.

[AcMav]

I do agree with it being exaggerated Chaos, but there are many chemicals other than the ones I listed I wouldn't want to see as I run into a burning building. Sadly I hate to sound like I'm taking the FedGov's side on this, but if the man wasn't storing his Chemicals safely he doesn't deserve them at all.

I believe the reason for this crackdown locally is because recently we had an explosion at a chemical plant in a suburban setting that caused 6.6 million in damages. Literally rattled my house from miles away, All because the company had been lazy and didn't put their chemicals away at night.

We know it better than the FedGov, Chemicals arn't something to screw around with. If Mr. Deeb couldn't understand that and keep his lab safe and tidy, He deserves to loose it. I might be going too hard on the guy, but it was hammered into my head the importance of safely storing chemicals (I worked stocking a chemical locker for a local company for a summer job) and I stand by my feelings that having all these chemicals just sitting around isn't good for anyone. I wouldn't want Mr. Deeb as my neighbor if thats how he runs his lab.

[Emil]

Acmav - Don't talk as if we know his lab was some kind of super hazard just waiting to burn or explode, that is probably rubbish. To the authorities, any ghetto lab, even if it maybe quite organised, will be described like it is an accident waiting to happen, with the chemicals not "properly" stored. This is bullshit. It is easy for them to say things like this, their labs are thousands of sqaure feet big, but your average home chemist will be using a room probably no more than 12x12, which when you have to store chemicals is terribley small. They just love labelling chemicals as evil and it's the classic curse of the mad bomber living in the local priests quiet little neighbourhood.

There is only so much one can do to store safely, but at the end of the day chemicals are chemicals. I wouldn't really want to run into any of them that were burning in a house fire or an emergency. Being sensible is definately top priority, and yes I do not agree with messy and untidy labs but come on, this is a news source we are refering to. Besides without real top notch storage facilities, storage really is a bit meaningless to some degree.
I mean come on, you have a bottle of Sulfuric acid in your lab, in a raging house fire is it really going to make much difference whether it is stored in some flimbsy wooden cabinet opposed to left on the table. If it was his poor misuse of chemicals that caused the fire in the first place, then that is a different kettle of fish.

[Gerbil]

I'm not familiar with zoning issues, living in the UK, but this is extreme even by police state standards. From all accounts the guy was simply spending his retirement inventing things such as sealants for baby food jars. Hardly the hallmark of a drug/weapons baron.

Even more disturbing is a comment on the Worcester Telegram & Gazette website:

Everyone seems quick to blame the government, but instead I think we should applaud them. WE ARE AT WAR PEOPLE. The 911 terrorists were very similar to Mr. Deeb. Outwardly they appeared to be hard working tax paying citizens while secretly they harbored a desire to commit horrific acts of terrorism.

How do we know that Mr. Deeb is any different from the terrorist who want to destroy our country--our children. The government has every right to monitor and control behavior that is out of the ordinary. If they don't the terrorist may win the war and we'll be forced to learn Arabic and abandon Jesus.

God bless people like Ms. Wilderman for standing up for our democracy. We need more civil servants like her, not less.

-Joe

Morons like Joe are destroying the Western world.

[Alexires]

Gerbil - Shit like religion is destroying the western world. There is WAY too much Jesus-juice in that paragraph for my liking.

AcMav - Emil has the right of it. Sure, if the guy was sleeping on bottles of HF and kept other chemicals in his medicine cupboard where "the children" could get to them, then he would be asking to get his ass ripped for improper storage. But when it is the governments word that he was improperly storing chemicals, I would give him the benefit of the doubt any day. These fuckers would do you for improper storage because you didn't have the pool chlorine locked up in a chemical cabinet.

They are just looking for an excuse to make "chemicals" and people that "play with chemicals" look bad, so that the general populace does the work for them.

Welcome 1984! I love the thought police!

[Rbick]

Dude, I believe in Jesus and I am not taking sides with these nut jobs. Whats wrong with believing in the things that he taught? If people actually studied what Jesus was all about, they would realize that if a government is starting to overstep its bounds, its ok to fight back. He was one of the most rebellious people of his days and fought the government of His time. You're right, RELIGION is destroying society, not a belief in God. When people turn it into hierarchies and a laundry list of rules, thats were you get morons like Muslim extremists, Baptists, and "Joe".

Anyway, I don't know where this thick skulled sheep got the idea that Deebs is in any way comparable to Muslim extremists. The article even claimed that there was no explosive material found, so there shouldn't even be an ounce of suspicion that he was trying to blow something up. You throw "9/11" and "chemicals" into a sentence and the majority of people (who are ignorant) go nuts. I don't possess the words to express myself right now I'm so pissed.

The sad part is that people like Wilderman now think they are heroes and participated in putting a "bad man" in jail. She didn't save anyone or accomplish anything, she just perpetuated the Big Brother agenda. Good for her, she should get the biggest sheeple award.

[Alexires]

Rbick - I have no problem with people believing in Jesus/Mohammed/Buddha/whatever. I just said there was way too much "I'm following Gods plan and I can say anything I want because I'm religious and you are a heathen" in what Joe had to say. Joe is a religious nut, and need to shut the fuck up.

Belief in a guiding set of morals has done wonderful things for the world. Organised religion is just as bad as Governments, even worse it could be argued.

The most hurtful thing that the Gov. can do to us is to make ordinary citizens their agents by giving them a sense of satisfaction from ruining other peoples life in the name of "The Law".

We need to start changing what people derive pleasure from. Less TV, less "dobbing" others in, less "I have to earn money to be happy". Only then will we start to turn the tide of public opinion. They will look at articles like this and actually read between the line as opposed to just absorbing it like sheep dip on a sheeple.

[Rbick]

Joe is a religious nut, and need to shut the fuck up.

Right on. He [Joe] has somehow twisted the idea of believing in a supreme being into standing up for the arrest of an innocent man and following a messed up government. I didn't mean to seem defensive in my response Alexires, I was just clarifying.

The funny part about how people make themselves to be so righteous and high is that it is actually wrong if you believe in Jesus. The man said to humble yourself and consider yourself no better than ANYONE. Strange how people manage to completely slaughter that.


They will look at articles like this and actually read between the line as opposed to just absorbing it like sheep dip on a sheeple.

I had to comment on how hilarious this comment is, but so true at the same time. A majority of responses to this article was probably "Thank god they stopped that evil man before he killed someone!". I wish there was a way to reach people with our opinions without getting arrested. Depressing...

[Cobalt.45]

Really, though, a residence is not the best place to run a lab, is it? Especially one that is attached to or immediately adjacent to another dwelling.

Often, expediency takes priority over common sense.

What you do to yourself or family may be one thing, but when it could effect someone who is a non-participant? There is the problem.

I'm as guilty as foolish Mr. Deeb; I experiment in my kitchen on occasion. One important difference is that I'm apart from anyone else by a good margin. Even so, anything toxic, explosive or potentially dangerous gets banished to the outbuilding (cold in winter, hot in summer and a long walk).

Not knowing the exact contents of Deeb's stash leaves much to conjecture- but it is documented that there were chemicals (however innocuous) left in disarray.

Good "housekeeping" is a fundamental aspect of a safe lab. Poor housekeeping is just not good joo joo, any way you slice it, IMO (Murphy's law and all...:().

Where I DO take exception is how the fucking authorities took the man's property!!!:mad: Likely, Deeb was cowed into it by intimidation and threats of prosecution- clearly a blatant abuse of power and an illegal search and seizure. But IMO, had his shit been locked away in a proper storage cabinet, the fire fighters may well have overlooked it altogether, besides being contained in the event of deflagration.

[megalomania]

There is a saying among chemists, if you have enough time to clean your lab, you aren't spending enough time on research. I have been in a lot of labs, and quite frankly what is considered "put away" amounts to the same thing as putting stuff under your kitchen sink.

The issue at hand is not how some chemicals may or may not have been properly stored, the issue is the fedgov terrorized a law abiding citizen by breaking into his home, stealing his property, and poisoned his reputation by associating the pursuit of science with terrorism.

Joe, the brainwashed freak who is a shill for Satan, thinks a chemist having chemicals is "behavior that is out of the ordinary." I don't what is more discouraging of all, ignorant statements like that, or the fedgov actually admitting they chemicals were harmless, but they took them anyway.

Let me be clear on this: there is no "proper" way to store chemicals in the eyes of the government. You can never be in compliance of something they make up just to ruin you. This is like a young child's game where he makes up the rules as he goes along so he always wins.

This is a war against science, only the fedgov stooges are too stupid to realize it. This is not the first attack on science either, it is only a new despicable low. I am actually physically nauseous reading about this.

My reaction to state sponsored terrorism (by the state of Massachusetts) is to devote a little of my time writing new information telling people how to make chemicals. I think it is high time I finished my chemical weapon labs and put them online. I shall dedicate the information to the Massachusetts imbeciles; their freedom raping chicanery is just the motivation I need.

[Alexires]

What horrifies me, Mega, is that all the sheeple applaud the government for doing it. You expect the government to do things like that, but where is the counterbalance? Where are the safeties and checks that stop the government from being tyrannical?

Unfortunately, we seem to think what was good 400 years ago for our forefathers is good enough for us. But that just isn't so. With all the modern technology around, suddenly the meaning behind their words are lost, and the literal translation gives the government loops holes and allows them to abuse their power like never before.

I'll leave you with a couple of famous quotes.

"When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything—you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
—Robert A. Heinlein, If This Goes On, 1940

"Only the mob and the elite can be attracted by the momentum of totalitarianism itself. The masses have to be won by propaganda."
—Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

"Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state."
—Noam Chomsky, Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda, 1997

"As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too. Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action: You liberate a city by destroying it. Words are used to confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests."
—Gore Vidal, Imperial America, 2004

What more is there to say?

[Cobalt.45]

I'll just say this: Maybe I'm way off base w/the idea of a tidy workplace; that's my MO, and it's served me well.:) I'm no chemist, that's for sure. Mainly pyro stuff. Once ruined a pound of KClO3 w/<1g of S, because both were out at the same time, and a door was opened... Poof, there you go.

Am very much looking forward to your additions, Mega. Massachusetts hath no idea what she has wrought.:eek:

[tmp]

Once, over 2 years ago, the cops came to my place because of one of my
room mate's drunken screaming at me because I wouldn't kiss his ass. I had
chewed his ass out earlier for quitting the last good job he's ever had.

One officer stepped into my bedroom and asked me about the idiot. Many of
my chemicals were in plain sight although unopened. Some of my lab gear
was in plain sight also. Not one question was asked. There have been no
visits to my place because of this. Maybe they just didn't care. Certainly
there were no complaints against me. Out of caution, the chemicals have
been relocated - just in case.