Energetic Materials For Energy

[LiquidThunder]

Before I decided to post here, I read the entire "Perm Ban" thread, so I understand the policy and necessity for it. I started by doing a site search and a Google search for the materials that I was thinking of combining but got essentially nothing of value from Google and 0 hits on this site.

I read an article on the web about using Hydrogen Peroxide and a catalyst to produce high temperature steam (600+ degrees) very quickly (1-2 seconds) using some catalyst. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide The catalysts are typically silver, platinum, or manganese dioxide. The article also goes on to say that Hydrogen Peroxide will react violently in the presence of a "reducing agent".

I am not looking for a BANG out of this, what I am looking for is a controlable sustainable access to cheap high temp steam. So now let me tell you about my chosen "reducing agent".

I did some research, and I think I have decided on Lithium Aliminum Hydride. I have found that it is incompatible with water and I have seen all the chemical reaction formulas and thier resultant compounds. However, while I presume the reaction to be very similar with Hydrogen Peroxide, I am concerned that the extra Oxygen in the equation could make all the difference.

Both of these materials on thier own are energetic to say the least, with high concentrations of H2O2 spontaneously exploding and with LAH being pyrophoric and being known to react with atmospheric water vapor. I am looking for some suggested reading to determine what the resulting formulas would be for the reaction between these two as well as any suggestions on the kind of container that would be necessary to contain this reaction and allow the pressure and steam to be released in a controlled fashion.

Thanks

And did I mention that I am not trying to make anything blow up? I hope I do not get banned on my first post.

[Lewis]

Why would you be banned? You post intelligently and in the correct place, are respectful, and actually read the rules.

In response to your question, I think a little more info on what you'd be using this energy for would be helpful. While concentrated H2O2 is useful for, say, high impulse rockets, I somehow doubt you'd be able to effectively use it to heat your home.

Throw LAH into the mix, and, well... I have no idea what will ensue, but it probably won't be anything too practical.

Generally, the term "energetic material" is used to describe chemicals, or mixtures of them, which react very quickly, but not necessarily release more total energy than an equivalent amount of conventional fuel in the long run. (they almost never do, in fact)

Very concentrated H2O2 will be hard to come by and expensive, LAH much more so. While the mixture you describe will undoubtedly give you high temperature something, I doubt it will be anything close to sustainable.

[megalomania]

There is actually a good bit of merit to this line of thinking, although I don't think the economics are up to it yet. I think the problem so far is the cost of manufacturing hydrogen peroxide would be significant compared to other methods of generating heat. There are quite a few recent journal publications about making hydrogen peroxide with ever greater efficiency, but they are all still quite experimental and small scale.

I think you are looking for a kind of controlled rocket thrust with this reaction. If you keep the components on a small enough scale, conventional steam power equipment should be up to the task. Naturally I can't say for sure without experimental data; all the theory in the world will get us nowhere fast without experiments.

I highly doubt you will find any data for free on the Internet. Not legally anyway... This particular area of chemistry is beyond my range of expertise and familiarity with current publications, this smells of physical chemistry or chemical engineering. You will have to hit the journal stacks and reference books for this one. Try the ACS and Wiley journal websites directly rather than Google or Google Scholar. RSC and Elsevir might have something too. You will not be able to actually get any journals unless you pay the bastards their pound of flesh/cash, but you might be able to get a line on some references you can get for free. Some of us can also fulfill some journal requests if you ask.

[LiquidThunder]

In response to your question, I think a little more info on what you'd be using this energy for would be helpful. While concentrated H2O2 is useful for, say, high impulse rockets, I somehow doubt you'd be able to effectively use it to heat your home.

Throw LAH into the mix, and, well... I have no idea what will ensue, but it probably won't be anything too practical.

Very concentrated H2O2 will be hard to come by and expensive, LAH much more so. While the mixture you describe will undoubtedly give you high temperature something, I doubt it will be anything close to sustainable.

Let me explain... My intention here is to produce a steam generator that will produce steam on demand first and foremost to run 3 Tesla Turbines. I have a friend that had one working on 400psi (low temp/pressure) steam and was getting up to 50,000rpms on the turbine. Now that connected to a regular generator would have to be either geared down or connected to a battery bank because that frequency is just too far away from 60Hz to be feasible directly. From my research, the H2O2 and LAH will produce temps in excess of 600dC and from steam tables that translates to pressures in excess of 2800psi....assuming a straight linear progression, thats 350,000 rpms or a direct electrical frequency of 5.8KHz so again... not directly usable. BUT what I am hoping is that I can adjust the temps and pressures with using lower concentrations of H2O2 and smaller amounts of LAH.

Now I chose to use 3 turbines, so I could get 3 phase power and run the entire home on 230V and have 200A service result.

Additionally... I have been doing a lot of research into the new Electric cars with their fuel cells and very heavy battery banks and I think that a small steam on demand system could provide sufficient electrical power to run the car well beyond the distances achieved with the heavy fuel cells. So that is what I am working towards.

[megalomania]

Ah ha, any system that requires portable or remote power would be the most likely to benefit from a fuel source like hydrogen peroxide. You would likely find the most useful information concerning hydrogen peroxide by reading up on rocket propellant. The chemical reactions, materials, and some equipment will be the same, you just require the reaction to be a little slower. The rocket publications should have the most pertinent data for your needs. NASA has many publications freely available, other than that I don't really keep track of rocketry stuff.

You would be well advised to consider producing your own LAH and recycling the waste product produced after your reaction since it seems you may be needing large quantities. I seem to remember so info from the Hive, but you should get the real data from patents and chemical engineering texts. Check out the latest Kirk Othmer Encyclopedia for the modern references on LAH manufacture. Actually, the Kirk Othmer might have some useful data on your reaction as well.

Kirk Other can be downloaded from the FTP, quite likely from Gigapedia, and there may be a few torrents floating around with it as well.

[LiquidThunder]

Ah ha, any system that requires portable or remote power would be the most likely to benefit from a fuel source like hydrogen peroxide. You would likely find the most useful information concerning hydrogen peroxide by reading up on rocket propellant. The chemical reactions, materials, and some equipment will be the same, you just require the reaction to be a little slower. The rocket publications should have the most pertinent data for your needs. NASA has many publications freely available, other than that I don't really keep track of rocketry stuff.


Mega:

Funny that you should mention rocketry. I have been struggling with the design for bringing the two key components together. Aside from the obvious need for containter to withstand the heat and pressure that is sure to ensue. I have considered a rotating shaft with something resembling a keyway that would work something like the rotating windows at some fast food places where it is sealed up to the very edge of the window (shaft) and as the keyway rotates up to the LAH feed hopper, the keyway measures out and exact amount to be dispensed into they Hydrogen Peroxide / Water mixture. This is simple and consistent for measurments... the downside of course is that the keyway once empty of the LAH would likely pick up some steam or water vapor or water droplets and then introduce it to the LAH hopper above with some potentially VERY BAD results.

So then it hit me that I am dealing with essentially rocket fuel (H2O2) and some solid reactant and I remembered some of my research a while back on project Promethius at MIT or one of the other high end engineering schools that were doing solid fuel rocket boosters. Essentially what they were doing was to create a narrow tunnel through the center of their solid fuel material that then opened into an expansion or combustion chamber, and then they would spray the Hydrogen Peroxide through a catalyst down the center and it would vaporize the solid fuel and then with some substantial force ignite and burn in the combustion chamber. If I follow this example and create a tube with the LAH... I could provide either straight steam (250 - 300dF) under some pressure down the center of the LAH... I would get a boundry layer reaction that could be controled via the pressure and quantity of steam available for the reaction.

Then have the expansion chamber be the opening to my steam turbine array. I think that I can control the pressure and heat by controling the introduction of steam. Also... after the reaction process begins, the heat generated can then be used to create the steam that is needed for the reaction. So of course some battery power will be required to create the initial steam and pressure, but would then be switched off and batteries recharged after the reaction is started.

Plus, there are a number of very useful byroducts of this reaction that with a small amount of secondary process can be used or sold.

I think that the entire apparatus can be fairly small, to produce enough electricity to power an electric car and the weight would be less than 1/4 of what the current battery banks weigh. And using this method, the LAH can be purchased in catriges like pool filters and would completely safe for general public use.

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-Hinckleyforpresident

[FUTI]

LAH is overkill IMHO. I remember there were an old rocket design that used H2O2 and jet fuel on silver catalyst. That should be good enough. H2O2 while decomposing on silver catalyst generates water and oxygen at 600 degrees Celsius. That is enough to ignite jet fuel injected in combustion chamber. That should be good enough for terrestrial applications. Use LAH only if you develop something for space applications, there its energy per mass outweigh almost anything and it should pay-off to put yourself to such troubles developing so many complex systems and mechanics.

[LiquidThunder]

LAH is overkill IMHO. I remember there were an old rocket design that used H2O2 and jet fuel on silver catalyst. That should be good enough. H2O2 while decomposing on silver catalyst generates water and oxygen at 600 degrees Celsius.

I was originally looking at that design.... the Germans used it, the British have used it, just about everyone has used it in thier initial rocket programs back in the 40's, 50's and 60's. None of my research to date made it clear wether the silver catalyst was used up or not. Burning silver is not very economical, so that is why I was looking for another relatively inexpensive catalyst or one that was cheap enough that it could be purchased and replaced (like inkjet cartridge or a pool filter). The reality of LAH and Hydrogen Peroxide 50% concentration is, the general public (dumb rednecks and other morons) would not have the skill or experience to be handling either one of the primary reactants. Nor would they be likely to seperate out the resulting chemical compounds for recycling or use in other applications.

IF the silver is not used up and can withstand the 600 degrees Celcius temperature, then I could push 50% Hydrogen Peroxide through the catalyst and get my steam, and pressure... while making nice clean Oxygen. Typical steam systems use stages of expansion before either reheating the steam or reintroducing it to the 3rd stage expander. In my case, I can pass it through all three Tesla Turbines then into a larger expansion chamber where the low pressure and lower temperature steam can be piped back to the reaction chamber where it will be reheated with the H2O2 + Catalyst reaction...adding to the steam volume. AND just forget about the LAH.

However, I still think that there are some possibilities since I should be able to produce my own LAH from the recycled components and some of the byproducts are also used to make Hydrogen Peroxide... So I could be using and making my own fuels with little overhead after the initial start.




That is enough to ignite jet fuel injected in combustion chamber. That should be good enough for terrestrial applications. Use LAH only if you develop something for space applications, there its energy per mass outweigh almost anything and it should pay-off to put yourself to such troubles developing so many complex systems and mechanics.

Not actually developing a rocket booster, so no terrestrial or space application for this per se.

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-Hinckleyforpresident

[FUTI]

H2O2 generates H2O and oxygen. LAH and water makes H2 among the other stuff. All that at 600 (or more) degrees Celsius...you like to live dangerous :-), but then again everyone at this forum does.

Who cares about steam? The ingredients you mix will most likely combust, but you will have million problems with making a good mixing chamber. Good luck anyway.

[LiquidThunder]

Who cares about steam? The ingredients you mix will most likely combust, but you will have million problems with making a good mixing chamber. Good luck anyway.

Above quoted edited for brevity and relevance.

FUTI:

I think I have a good solution for the component interaction derived from the design of solid rocket boosters. I am thinking that perhaps a slower or less reactive material will be needed, otherwise... too much pressure and reaction will be too fast.

[Jacks Complete]

The catalyst doesn't get used up - otherwise it wouldn't be a catalyst!

The silver simply causes the peroxide to decompose rapidly, generating lots of heat alongside the oxygen and hydrogen dioxide (water/steam) so unless you get to very high temps the silver will be fine.

You'll have issues keeping the H2O2 coming out the nozzle fast enough and over the catalyst, I think, but keep us posted!

[James]

I think actually your best bet would be a fossil fuel mixed w/ air driving an internal combustion engine. Boring, but effective. I saw an article ('Prospectus' in the July 1996 Analog) in containing the specific impulses of several mixtures. Hydrogen peroxide didn't fare too well.

[Hirudinea]

Although I know nothing about the chemistry I can tell you that in WWII that Japanese "Long Lance" torpedo used H2O2 to produce steam to propell itself, you can research that if you want. You can also look up Submarine Air Independent Propulsion systems, heres a quote I found after a 5 second google search...

In the early 1930s, however, a brilliant German engineer, Dr. Helmuth Walter (ca. 1900-1980) of Kiel's Germaniawerft, proposed a radical new submarine propulsion plant based on the use of high-purity hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as an oxidant. In Walter's system, hydrogen peroxide from an onboard supply was decomposed using a permanganate catalyst to yield high temperature steam and free oxygen.

If you look up stuff in that vein you might find what you need, but just remember all H2O2 propulsion systems were abandoned because they were as dangerous as hell, oh yea, the Messerschmit ME-101 rocket plane used H2O2 as a oxidizer and the refueling crews had to wear special suits because the H2O2 would eat through flesh to the bone in seconds, but I guess you already knew that, x-rays are an easier way to see your bones.