PETN

[Disturbed]

Hello there all...
I just had this great dream about making and blowing off PETN, thought you might want to hear about it

First off, I made the PETN using Wantsomefet's method that he posted a while ago.
Ingredients:
50g Pentaerythritol
200g KNO3
500ml 93% H2SO4 [cause that's what i had]

add all the PE to the acid, and stir. This stuff takes forever to dissolve.. I waited about 1.5 hrs and it still hadn't all dissolved, so I got impatient and just started slowly adding KNO3 to it. I added it by the teaspoon over about 1hr. During this time, the beaker got nice and warm, which is no surprise, but I couldn't really tell what temp as my thermometer had been smashed a while before. I guess temperature isn't all that critical, as I didn't keep it in an ice bath. After adding all the KNO3, I left it outside overnite. In the morning I filtered it, washed it several times with water and bicarb, and then left it to dry. Dry, I 80g.

After it had all dryed, I pressed it in a soup can, to a density of about 1g/cc, IIRC. I detonated it with about 20g of AP, which I know is a lot, but I'd like a surefire detonation. Lemme tell ya, the bang was quite impressive =] I didn't have time to check out the damage wrought on the ground, as it was nite and I wanted to get the hell outta there. Also, sorry for no pics, but I don't have a digital cam, and dont really wanna develop photos of explosives in this day and age.

Basically, this method is easy, requires little time/effort to do, and packs some serious punch! BTW, I got the PE from pyrotek, in case you are wondering.

I hope youi enjoyed my little dream there! I thought it was a rather good one.

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kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

[This message has been edited by Disturbed (edited 11-24-2001).]

[CodeMason]

I thought sulfuric acid couldn't be used for PETN for some reason (not the same reason as RDX of course). Perhaps it merely lowers yields?

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[Mr Cool]

H2SO4 can be used for making PETN without any negative results - PETN is chemically similar to nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine, which are both made with H2SO4.

[CodeMason]

I know it's a nitric ester Mr Cool! It's just that all the documentations I read on the stuff recommended white non-fuming 90-99% nitric and no sulfuric.

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Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net

[Anthony]

Maybe H2SO4 just isn't needed in this particular nitration?

[Disturbed]

Well, in my dream the sulfuric acid certainly didn't ruin it. Also, the yields were pretty decent, 70-80%, which I think is good. Wantsomefet reported about the same yields for this too. Mostly, this seems good, as 100% nitric acid is a commodity hard to find, and hard to make correctly without nice equipment. However, you can find sulfuric acid and XNO3 anywhere cheaply and requires no great effort or time to use.

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kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

[Mr Cool]

I know you know it's a nitrate ester, but some people might not.

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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.

[Madog555]

hello, this sounds very good. i have ordered some PE and plan to have some intresting dreams in about a week...

anyways, i got an idea. i have this stuff called Crisco, its partialy hydrated soybean and cottonseed oil. its used as a bakeing ingredient. i thought sience semtex is plasticized with vegdable oil you could use crisco instead and this will probaly solve the problem of it bleeding out oil in storage sience crisco is not liquid.

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"True freedome is not without anarchy"

[CodeMason]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">i thought sience semtex is plasticized with vegdable oil</font>I thought it was plasticized with lecithin, AN oil that COMES from vegetables, but not necessary vegetable oil. And that's only old school Semtex, now they have high-tech plasticizers.

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Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net

[Jumala]

Semtex receipes can be found at this site

http://edetonator.hyperlink.cz/HOME1.htm

[Madog555]

heres a post by Mekap with the recipe for old school semtex

originaly posted by Mekap:

Semtex is a powerful plastic explosive that is more sensitive than, and can be used as a replacement for, military C4 No.8 blasting cap should be used for optimum performance.
MATERIALS:
RDX high explosive
PETN high explosive
Vegetable oil
Measuring device(cup, spoon, etc)
Wooden dowel or spoon for stirring
Rolling pin
Wooden board or hard surface
Bowl
Wax paper or plastic wrap
PROCEDURE:
1. Place a small amount of RDX crystals on a wooden block or hard countertop. Using a rolling pin, crush the crystals into a fine powder, having the consistency of flour.
CAUTION: Use the rolling pin only, not a block of wood. It is important to crush the crystals rather than using friction between two rubbing surfaces.
2. Repeat process until desired amount of RDX has been pwdered. Then using the same process, powder the same amount of PETN.
3. Mix 9 parts of RDX and 9 equal parts of PETN in a jar and shake for 5 minutes.
4. Pour the RDX/PETN mixture into a bowl and add 2 equal parts of vegetable oil (this is what give comercial semtex its color). Stir vigorously until a uniform paste is obtained.
5. Semtex can be used immediately for any task requiring a high explosive. If it is to be stored, however mold the semtex into a brick and place it in the middle of a square piece of wax paper and wrap tightly and seal with adhesive tape to keep brick airtight.
6. Store in a cool, dry place. The explosive should have an almost unlimited shelflife but will lose its plastic properties after a while.
Note: In general, it is always preferable to mix explosives just before use to avoid the problems and dangers of storage.

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"True freedome is not without anarchy"


[This message has been edited by Madog555 (edited 11-26-2001).]

[CodeMason]

You don't need both PETN and RDX, they are so remarkably similar in their properties that either one or the other can be used. RDX has a slightly higher density and is slightly less sensitive however, and so this is preferred. But explosives manufacturers in poorer European countries where this explosive originated would "cut" it with the less expensive PETN with no noticable differences.

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Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net

[Madog555]

ok, thats what i was planning to dream

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"True freedome is not without anarchy"

[DBSP]

Just of curiosity has Pentaerythritol any other names.And what is the chemical formula of pentaerythritol?

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¤monte¤

[EventHorizon]

C₅H₁₂O₄
Molecular weight - 136.15
CAS Names - 2,2-Bis(hydroxymethyl)-1,3-pro pane diol; tetrakis(hydroxymethyl)methane
Trade names - Metab-Auxil; Penetek; Pentek
Additional names - tetramethylolmethane

EDIT: Merck didn't have the chemical formula.
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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited 11-27-2001).]

[Madog555]

is Pentaerythritol poisonous?


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"True freedome is not without anarchy"

[VasiaPupkin]

Be sure if you know some chemistry you can write structural formula from chemical name. pentaerytrite- C(CH2OH)4.
PETN toxity and pharmacological properties like NG. First symptoms - headache. But it cannot to penetrate through skin.
Impurities in non recrystilazed PETN is unstable and accidents may occur (large sensitivity or autoignition for example). You would to recrystallize PETN from acetone (solubility 58.8 g/100g acetone at 50C)
Therefore temperatures in simple HNO3 nitration must be below 15-20C. If you use reaction between KNO3 and H2SO4/pentaerytrite solution (disulfate pentaerytrite is occur in H2SO4) mixture have very little amount of dangerous impurities but also have various non-explosive sulfuric esters.
By the way PETN is very sensitive to sparks and can save up static electrisity when keeping. Therefore industrial PETN has treatment with special antistatic surfactants.
SEMTEX has large quantity of plastic binder only for safe military operation. But this quantity is surplus for common use. We need only good combination plastic and explosive properties and 10% binders usually enough.
Oil/lecitin plastic mixture is very poor binder. More effective homemade systems is syntetic gum(almost all known kinds)/mineral oil.
I used syntetic gum/rubber anti-corrosion mastique for automobile (I mixed it with oil and waited for solvent evaporate). Also I used PS/oil mixture:
Mix PS (for example PS "penoplastes") with benzine-solvent approx 1:5 in hermetic container. Then wait a few days. When mixture will sticky and gomogenous add approx. 3 parts oil or oil fuel on 1 part PS. Stir this stuff, add HE and wait for benzene evaporate.
If you have no time - heat oil fuel in water bath and add some amounts of crushed low-quality solid soap, stir for gomogenous state. Cool mixture. It stands very sticky grey-brown liquid. Then add HE and wait some time in cool temperature for final thickeness. But smell will be disgusting http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[wantsomfet]

Hey Disturbed,
take more time to dissolve the PE, i usually let it stir with a magnetical stirrer overnight, better watch the temp not to go over 45 °C when adding the PE to the H2SO4.
Nitration temp. should be between 37 °C - 60 °C. But the important thing is the nitration time, not too long! I recently did two batches that i had stand up to 50 hours, the yields where only 40% - 55%. With 1 - 2 hours i get the best yields...

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[Madog555]

Hello, i got a few questions:

1. will a .45 shell full of AP (unpressed) set off PETN?
2. will a .223 shell full of AP set it off?
3. i have herd that it is just about sensitive enough to be set off with a hammer. is this true?

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"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

[This message has been edited by Madog555 (edited 12-09-2001).]

[CodeMason]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">3. i have herd that it is just about sensitive enough to be set off with a hammer. is this true?</font>Davis sez: "It may be exploded readily by pounding with a carpenter's hammer on a concrete floor. In the drop test it is detonated by a 20-cm. drop of a 2-kilogram weight, sometimes by a drop of 10 or 15 cm."

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Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net

[Anthony]

You'd have to hit it pretty hard to set it off with a hammer. Both those detonators you mentioned would be well capable of the task, a 22LR of uncompressed AP would probably do it.

[Madog555]

thx

ok, thats what i figured would a .223 full of AP do it for an 88% PETN, 12% oil mix?

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"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

[This message has been edited by Madog555 (edited 12-10-2001).]

[CyclonitePyro]

Didn't dsturbed use too little KNO3? I know his yield was good but wantsomfet used over 300g for 25 grams of pentaerythritol, and disturbed used 200g KNO3 for 50g grams of pentaerythritol. What is the most effiecent ratio of PE. to KNO3?

How much Ca(NO3)2 would I use for 50g of PE?

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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

[CyclonitePyro]

Anyone?

(This isn't a chat room!

Don't make "Why isn't anyone answering my question?" posts. It's very annoying.

Your question will be answered if it's in someones interest to do so.

NBK2000)

I also have a question about RDX in the thread about RDX, and I will reward you with pics of finished products PETN, RDX and det. effects...

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Friends don't let friends play with Nitrogen Triiodide

[This message has been edited by CyclonitePyro (edited 12-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 12-11-2001).]

[Anthony]

Dunno, I use the equvilent of 250gm KNO3 to 25gm PE. I haven't done any study of the yeilds but they're reasonable

[Madog555]

can 70% HNO3 be used?

i have herd of this being done but it was discouraged by some of the members. but sience you can use KNO3 and H2SO4 for it i figured that its probaly fine. but there must be a reason why 98% HNO3 is used imn most procedures

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"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

[Mr Cool]

Why would 70% probably be fine?
KNO3 + H2SO4 = no water
70% HNO3 = lots of water

Edit: stupid of me, you mean with H2SO4 as well, right? I thought you meant instead of the v.conc. HNO3. Yeah, it should work with 70% HNO3 and 98% H2SO4, like for NG etc.

Another edit: If I had to guess at some ratios for using 70% HNO3, I'd say use roughly 140g of PE, 300mL of HNO3 and 500mL of H2SO4. This should give you enough excess acid - someone, please disagree with me if you can see any flaws with those ratios, to avoid anyone wasting chems...

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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.

[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited 12-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited 12-13-2001).]

[Disturbed]

Wantsomfet,
thx for the advice! I dont have a magnetic stirrer, and that stuff takes so damn long to dissolve that I don't mind too much if my yields are a bit low, if I don't have to babysit it for hours. The nitration time info is useful though, I'll definitely keep that in mind in the future. About the amount of KNO3 used: I think I used about 4-5 times more than necessary for the nitration, on the advice of one of Wantsomfet's earlier posts. I don't know how much the yield would really increase if you added more, but I think that it would probably be diminishing returns to throw much more XNO3 in

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kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

[Madog555]

a note on the sensitiveity of PETN, a "friend" of mine made some and he put a little on a small anvil and hit it with a hammer, it went bang.

[Madog555]

i herd that its good to add some water to the PETN to help make sure that detonation spreads through the explosive effectively. is this a good idea?

[CodeMason]

Adding glycerine would probably be a better idea.

[Madog555]

ok, that sounds better than adding water.

[Anthony]

It'll lower the VoD of the PETN though. I don't think it is neccessary, PETN isn't exactly prone to incomplete detonation.

[Madog555]

ok, i didn't like the thought of mixing stuff like that with my beautiful(and imaginary) PETN anyways

this may be a little off topic but here it goes,

how good is MNT for plasticizeing PETN and can it be made via H2SO4/XNO3?

[wantsomfet]

Actually adding 10% water or up to 20% glycerine to PETN increases the VOD. You may read this info, it's from Urbanski or download the entire (german) volumes from the Forum FTP...

<a href="http://internettrash.com/users/altreal/petn2.html" target="_blank">http://internettrash.com/users/altreal/petn2.html</a>

And the ratios i suggested:

Pentaerythrite: 25g
H2SO4 96% to dissolve PE, 6,5 parts: 162,5g / 88ml
H2SO4 96% for nitration: 294,2g / 160ml
KNO3 for nitration: 303,3g

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: wantsomfet ]</p>

[nbk2000]

20% of what? Weight or volume? Need to be more specific.

[wantsomfet]

By weight. I think that's clear...

[Mr Cool]

I'd rather add NM than glycerine, if you have it, or mix it with NC/acetone.

MNT should be OK to platicise it, you might need DNT (or maybe MNN) as well - C2 and C3 have nitrotoluenes as plasticisers.

[nbk2000]

It's NOT clear since nowhere does it say so.

I think we've all learned that, when it comes to explosives, assumption is the quickest way to get to the hospital or the cemetery.

Perhaps you should amend the page to state the "% by weight" fact....hmm?

I wouldn't think NM would add much more power to the PETN, as compared to the added expense, and would be better used for ANNM.

[Anthony]

I'm sure I'd read somewhere the VoDs for Straight PETN and a mixture with glycerine and the straight was higher...

[wantsomfet]

I always thought it's clear that pyro or explosive formulas use weight ratios and not volume, a fact i learned years ago as newbie.
For the VOD, it all depends on the density of the stuff, sure straight PETN @ 1,7g/cm3 will be faster than 80% PETN/20% glycerine @ 1,4g/cm3.

[nbk2000]

Sure, it's SOP to use weights in the professional journals.

But I'm not reading this in scan of COPAE or Urbanskis, but on a webpage. I know it's you, but I (and no one else either) can afford to make this assumption.

And there's more than enough websites out there that make these sorts of mistakes to warrant such caution.

Nothing against you, just a not so minor detail that IS important.

[Mr Cool]

I know NM wouldn't add anything to the PETN, but it would surely be better than glycerol or water. However, it is expensive.

[nbk2000]

Glycerine and Nitromethane are more than $30 a gallon.

Water is free.

For the measly few hundred m/s VOD gained, it's not worth the cost to use anything else.

[megalomania]

I have consulted the book of law! Heed these words well my friends as they are true.

[quote] The percentage of a component (solute) in a mixture or solution is usually expressed as a weight percent (wt%).

Although units of weight or volume should always be expressed to avoid ambiguity, weight is usually implied when units are absent. (Harris 10) <hr></blockquote>

Harris, Daniel C. Quantitative Chemical Analysis. 4th ed. New York: W.H. Freeman and
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Company, 1995.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: megalomania ]</p>

[nbk2000]

A HA! The weasel word "Usually" rears it's ugly head!

In my dealings with the legal system, there are words that allow them to weasel they're way out of an otherwise airtight agreement.

Such words are:


Usually

Should

Could

Can

May

Might

Some


These are often followed by the word "But". As in:

The kewl may appeal his death sentence, BUT it's up to the administrative staff to determine the validity of his appeal.

OR

Inmates can get visits, BUT it's really at the whim of the guards on duty that day whether you will get one or not.

Words that force them to follow the agreement:


All

Must

Shall

Will

Always


and several others I can't think of right now.

(Amusing prison life anecdote)
I was once denied a hot meal because the sargent said I couldn't go in the cafeteria without a T-shirt on under my jumpsuit.

Well mister, nothing like the lack of food to motivate a person to hit the ol' Title 15! (California's Prison Operating Standards and Laws)

Next day I went, sans T-shirt, to the cafeteria. As hoped, the same dick head sargent tried the same shit and I whipped out the relevant page and quoted it to him:

"Inmates shall not be denied two hot meals a day, either in a communal dining facility or in their housing units, except in cases of an institutional lock-down. In such case, 3 sack lunches will be issued, with no more than 14 hours between the first and last meal service"

And I told him he could either let me eat in the cafeteria, or serve it to me in my cell, but either way I'm getting my hot meal or the whole prison locked down 'cause there's going to be a 602 with his name all over it otherwise.

I ate in the cafeteria, with no T-shirt on, everyday therafter. :)
(/Amusing prison life anecdote)

So weight is "usually" implied, but that isn't "always", now is it? And it's the exceptions that'll bite you in the ass!

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</p>

[bonnsgeo]

hello !
i have made 4 times petn by h2so4/kno3 method but it works only twice.

i'd like to know why !!

i made that: 1)i put kno3 and sulfu together then after 30 minutes i add the PE ... i obtained some petn.
2) pe + h2so4 and i add kno3 : i obtained a little amount of petn
3) same method: nothing appears.
4)one beaker with h2so4 + pe , an other with kno3 + h2so4. i put the solution kno3/h2so4 into pe/h2so4 .... nothing.

can you help me ...?

bonn's
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: bonnsgeo ]</small>

[bonnsgeo]

hi!
ok the method h2so4/kno3 is working i obtained 5 g of "petn" for 5 g of pe (yield is not very good but it was a try).but when i recristalized "petn" in acetone i just have only 3 g of "petn" after .why did i lose 2 g ??? :confused:

other question: during the nitration the temperature have to stay at what level ? 25 °C ?? :rolleyes:

thx
bonn's

nitrocellulose with h2so4+kno3 is a really good method !!

sorry for my english <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

<small>[ April 29, 2002, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: bonnsgeo ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

When you recristalize anything you will loose some. You will loose a smaller percentage when you use larger ammounts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Madog555]

after you nitrate it you get some white goop, i always run hot acetone through this like 5 times to get the maximum amount, not all disolves the first time.