Re: hard to place a title on this :D

[Thermiteisfun]

One simple question to provoke discussion and speculation......


Do you think the reason this site HASN'T been shut down is because our respective governments use us as lab rats for devising methods to circumvent their efforts in an attempt to prevent a problem the information contained here may pose at any given point?

As while I am drunk ATM and simply browsing I will think of more to say to flesh out my thoughts in the morning however this question poopped into my mind and just HAD to be asked! It took a monumental effort to correct my post in my current state :)

[festergrump]

I think that if more US government agencies knew how we exercised our 1st Amendment rights here there would be alot more pressure to shut RS down. It has been tried before, but it'll take more than the likes of iDefense to do so.

From what I have read here in the past, there are restrictions put forth on ISPs abroad not allowing their customers access to RS. AOL does it willingly here in the states, but I think I remember reading that it's hard to get here from Australia and the UK, too. Or at least it was. Anyone confirm this?

I've thought about this myself (both sober and inebriated) and think that perhaps they like the idea of being able to read what we have to say. Sort of a "keep your friends close but your enemies closer" sort of deal? Free-thinkers are definitely on their enemy list. That's one way to look at it.

Another is, aside from applying pressure on the host of this site, they really have no Constitutional leg to stand on to do any worse to stop us at the source. If they can lean on and strongarm the host to make them shut us down willingly and of their own accord (only temporarily, mind you) then they have only reinforced the fervor with which we come popping back into action.

Hosting RS in the USA guarantees the site freedom of speech. If we were to ever lose that right, I think it could still be kept afloat if hosted overseas from a country which cares not at all for American BS politics, only US money. There are many other ideas being discussed in such a case, also. I have little fear the voice of RS will ever be totally snuffed out. ;)

I'd almost bet my bottom dollar that there are US government agents who curse and grit their teeth just knowing that they cannot do anything to shut us up right now. "That damn 1A just keep getting in the way!" :p

[Alexires]

Thermite - Then again, look at all the "anarchy" forums on the internet. I don't think they come up with much that is of worth (especially TOTSE) and they haven't been closed down.

I suppose it is possible that they are just sitting back, catching all the IP addresses as they come here and tracking them, but if you are using a proxy like TOR, that will make things harder for them.

God, some of the ideas I have come up with while drunk have been awesome! Then I normally forget them by morning due to handover :mad:

Need to keep a "Piss Book" to write all my ideas in while I'm riding the EtOH train.

Edit: And why the fuck does TOTSE get a wiki article, but we don't? Then again, people reference us in wiki, which kind of makes up for it I suppose :rolleyes:

[Thorald]

Fester - I read here that AOL is blocked from using The Explosives and Weapons Forum. Not AOL restricting their customers. I seem to recall reading a post of nbk's that mentioned how the majority of Kewls use AOL and that's why they were blocked.

Is that true or not..?

[Cobalt.45]

...it is possible that they are just sitting back, catching all the IP addresses as they come here and tracking them...I have believed this to be the case, from the first post ever I submitted. To believe anything less is to be naive, IMO.

In a worst-case scenario, conspiracy would be our biggest threat and their most likely used tactic. Again, IMO.

[shady mutha]

I don't think the alphabet boys care to much about RS though it would not suprise me if they did keep a good eye on us.

At the end of the day its just information.

After all the years of RS I can recall only 2 members who commited crimes which leads me to believe 99.9 of us are just interested in science and self defence ect, not in damaging people or property.

[James]

I think it's safe to assume that governments know we're here. They probably learned something after raiding SJ game back in '90? Most anarchy sites pull in those who are 'young, dumb and full of cum' (I know bad quote). Boston T. Party says there are two types of laws 'mala in se' (things everyone knows is wrong, and hence can't plead ignorance of) and 'mala prohibita' (which are arbitrary crimes created by politicians). The purpose of the latter is to crush the spirit and create criminals (which probably includes most of us)

[Hinckleyforpresident]

The purpose of the latter is to crush the spirit and create criminals (which probably includes most of us)

Speak for yourself... I for one am no criminal, and I am doubtful that "most" of the members here are either.

[Alexires]

Hinckleyforpresident - In the eyes of the law makers, we are all criminals, just waiting to commit a crime.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

@Alexires

Sadly, you are correct. But luckily they are still having trouble prosecuting potential future crimes.

I fear for the day when I can be tried and convicted for buying some drain opener and sugar substitute within a 2 week period.

[Alexires]

True, they might have trouble convicting you of thinking of crime, but what happens when the laws are ambiguous? Exceeding the time limit of a park not only merits a fine, but suddenly turns into "surveillance of a potential terrorist" target.

Thought crime will be hard to bring in, but when everything is illegal, everyone is a criminal.

[festergrump]

Thorald, I tried a few times to log in from work on the office computer I had at my disposal. They had only an AOL account at the time. I could not access RS. NBK told me that it was possible from there, but due to AOL's policy of not allowing their customers access to the site... he and Mega merely returned the favor. Who would want an AOLer here, anyway? :rolleyes: :p

[phrankinsteyn]

If this site is monitored and under "good" law enforcement it probably is. I believe that political, religious or racial beliefs (words and slurs) should not be used here. The information that we exchange should be totally on a "how to" basis with more of an emphasis on "hypothetical". Names, avatars, titles and signatures should all be neutral and in english. I believe signatures are already required to be in english.

The moderators spend a lot of time on correct grammar, and they should, but incorrect grammar won't shut this group down (could get a few hurt though hypothetically :)). Discussing political, religious or racial beliefs can and would be used against this site (and you) if the government ever chooses to prosecute. I believe that a few of us could name some sites (on the right and left wing) that were brought down for there content or altered because of it.

Some may consider this paranoid, I don't. Why would I give the government, or anyone, evidence to use against me? I always try to think what my action(s) would look like if I were standing in front of a jury; how would I explain my statements (posts), books, tools, actions, etc.? They may and probably will pass another law, and grandfather it in, that makes you now a criminal for what you did or said yesterday. The domestic violence laws, pertaining to firearms (USA) is just one example.

If you have a guard dog his name does not have to be Killer (if trained properly he is) to be effective. Fluffy would be just as good as a name. And if you were brought up on charges, because the dog did its job, it would sound a lot better to say to the jury: Fluffy attacked the bad guy. The name Killer might not go over as well.

I wonder some times about the names and posts here. Are the people posting them young, naive or working for the authorities?

[Cobalt.45]

Some interesting opinions here that I'd like to comment on. Please take no offence- the discussion is just that- a discussion.:)If this site is monitored and under "good" law enforcement it probably is.I don't understand. Good LE? As in doing the right thing?:confused:

I believe that political, religious or racial beliefs (words and slurs) should not be used here.Bah. I for one don't see discriptives as being a problem. If one were to say they wanted to kill a segment of the population, well, that might be a problem- IF you actually carried it out. Is it illegal to use "nigger", "kike", "polock", "rag head", etc? I really have no idea.

Names, avatars, titles and signatures should all be neutral and in english.I don't see any type or form of censorship- self-imposed or otherwise- as valid. ALL post content is to be in English, AFAIK. Except possibly quotes, maybe sigs and the odd Latin phrase type of thing. I fully support second-person and "SWIM" recounting of tales.

Discussing political, religious or racial beliefs can and would be used against this site (and you) if the government ever chooses to prosecute. I believe that a few of us could name some sites (on the right and left wing) that were brought down for there content or altered because of it.I'm unaware of this- both that "beliefs can and would...", etc, and sites brought down or altered because of these beliefs. I would like to hear some opinions on this as well as supporting evidence. It's not so much that I doubt it, I would just like more info!

The domestic violence laws, pertaining to firearms (USA) is just one example.I don't follow- example of what?

]I wonder some times about the names and posts here. Are the people posting them young, naive or working for the authorities?Any examples?

[FUTI]

If this site is monitored and under "good" law enforcement it probably is. I believe that political, religious or racial beliefs (words and slurs) should not be used here. The information that we exchange should be totally on a "how to" basis with more of an emphasis on "hypothetical". Names, avatars, titles and signatures should all be neutral and in english. I believe signatures are already required to be in english.

I think that to that every reasonable state would monitor this site, and the freaks like that one in Finland that posted the video on youtube and then go to school on killing rampage give them an excellent excuse.


The moderators spend a lot of time on correct grammar, and they should, but incorrect grammar won't shut this group down (could get a few hurt though hypothetically :)). Discussing political, religious or racial beliefs can and would be used against this site (and you) if the government ever chooses to prosecute. I believe that a few of us could name some sites (on the right and left wing) that were brought down for there content or altered because of it.

Again right on the target IMHO. The way I see there is lot of things incorrect about GWB - you know the "nucular guy" (heck why does my browser underline that word ;-)), and he is pretty high up the ladder (all meanings included). So much about grammar ;-). I have no idea why discussing political views can be negative unless you profess some radical line that have problems with logic and reasoning e.g. nazism. Even they should have a right of speech by the law although I think they are crazy they should by the law have that right. A agree on racial issues...that is backward line of reasoning to discriminate someone by his place of birth, skin color, gender etc. All the sites that I know that vanished into the air were drugs related so I'm not amazed by that. Maybe fact that I'm chemist and that I surf to various chemistry related sites put only those into the scope is reason that I can't mention any other site that had such fate.

I wonder some times about the names and posts here. Are the people posting them young, naive or working for the authorities?

I have always wondered about nicknames around various forums. They are stupid sometimes. NBK had a custom to monitor the weird nicks and ban the members sometimes including the stupid nicks in the crimes against the forum list ;-).

[Kaydon]

I can't believe we have multiculturalist morons on this forum.

I'm positive that there are Jackboots patrolling the posts on this forum. A good example would be the 'theoretical revolutionary strategies' post, you think the Jackboots would allow discussion like that to go on unless they were eavesdropping? To the public, we're extremists and radicals.

So yeah, we're "lab rats" in a sense.

I'd also be willing to bet that there are weapons manufacturers reading on here once in a while.

[slarter]

I'd also be willing to bet that there are weapons manufacturers reading on here once in a while.

I know that there are weapons testers that read here every day. ;)

[TheSavageHyena]

The boys in blue must be here just lurking at the least. There are advertisements in the paper on television for monitoring 'online crime'. It is part of the IT field and is fairly new.

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-education/online-degrees/kaplan-university/criminal-justice-computer-crime-bachelors-55.html

You'll examine the nature of computer crime and its possible impact on business and society, the investigation of computer crime, the legal implications of monitoring crime in cyberspace, the protection of digital assets, and computer forensics.


Judging from the above posts, it looks like the consensus agrees we are all 'criminals', or at the very least criminally inclined. It comes as no surprise, and we should all do our part to cover the tracks as best as we can. There are only 2 possible outcomes I can think of, and any other that come to mind should be entertained as well.

Option 1-We all get active politically and restore our tarnished Constitutional Rights and Bill Of Rights. This will render us law abiding citizens and not criminals, therefore we wouldn't need to subjet ourselves to any surveillance.

Option 2- We continue activities all the while trying our hardest to stay under the radar. The only result (at this rate) would be more infringement on personal liberty and we would be either driven into recluse or casually lose interest in the E&W part of life for fear of penalty.

A agree on racial issues...that is backward line of reasoning to discriminate someone by his place of birth, skin color, gender etc.

In a perfect world maybe, however we will always have a list of races we like and dislike. It is human nature. With all the races comes different points of view and conflict of interest. As much as I hate to admit it I have to agree with Kaydon on that one. Nevertheless that topic is entirely subjective

[Alexires]

Regardless of the view you possess on skin colour, genetics, politics, law, or any other bloody thing: your voice should not be silenced, through law or through fear of the law.

I believe that political, religious or racial beliefs (words and slurs) should not be used here. The information that we exchange should be totally on a "how to" basis with more of an emphasis on "hypothetical". Names, avatars, titles and signatures should all be neutral and in english. I believe signatures are already required to be in english.

I certainly don't agree with that, and I don't know if there would be many here that would. The Forum is no longer a "how to" on E&W but tailors for a wider range of topics, and that requires free speech.

Discussing political, religious or racial beliefs can and would be used against this site (and you) if the government ever chooses to prosecute.

If the government ever chooses to prosecute, they would have to overcome the 1st Amendment and if that happens, I think you would have more to worry about than just the forum being shut down.

...that makes you now a criminal for what you did or said yesterday.

Do you think that is going to stop there? Do you think that if they take that step, you will somehow be spared by the grace of god? Your very membership here will put you on a list, and that alone will be enough.

Better to expect the worst and be pleasantly surprised than to expect the best and to be disappointed.

[phrankinsteyn]

Cobalt.45, That's a lot to explain but I will try and no offence taken. :)

I don't understand. Good LE? As in doing the right thing?:confused:

Big brother mentality and crime prevention?

Is it illegal to use "nigger", "kike", "polock", "rag head", etc? I really have no idea.

As far as I know, it is not illegal (yet in the USA as long as it is not associated with a "Hate Crime") to use a derogatory slur or name but if a law should ever pass, and it is grand fathered in, you could be charged for statements made in the past.

How does making sarcastic remarks or judgements improve your position. I like to think that we are all educated here and different than the masses. Do the scientific journals speak of radical political, religious or racial beliefs or make condescending remarks towards it's members or writers? I believe that these type of remarks alienates members from providing information/posting that may be valuable to all of us.

I don't see any type or form of censorship- self-imposed or otherwise- as valid. ALL post content is to be in English, AFAIK. Except possibly quotes, maybe sigs and the odd Latin phrase type of thing. I fully support second-person and "SWIM" recounting of tales.

I only believe in self censorship/restraint for the sake of this forum. On a forum like this political, religious or racial beliefs + the "how to" info =? to the authorities.

There should be a consistent standard. Why would/should a signature be required in english but not the titles?

I'm unaware of this- both that "beliefs can and would...", etc, and sites brought down or altered because of these beliefs. I would like to hear some opinions on this as well as supporting evidence. It's not so much that I doubt it, I would just like more info!

Let's just say you got into a altercation with someone not of your race and race was not the cause of the altercation. And the altercation lead to a serious injury or death (you came out the winner). If it can be proven that you are or were a member of a radical political/racist/religious group or have written or said radical political/racist/religious things or promoted those ideas chances are it would be used against you in a court of law by the prosecution.
SWIM had his US military training used against him at a trial along with the "words" he allegedly used before and during the altercation.

For sites that were altered or shut down: The Army of God web site comes to mind, no longer links to the original army of god manual. I remember a site called RaisetheFist.com. Owner/operator was charged with publishing bomb-making information on the Internet with the knowledge or intent that it would be used to commit a federal crime of violence.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/raisethefist/

There are many ways for the government can bring you up on criminal charges; i.e. see raise the fist info; contributing to the delinquency of an minor(?) and more then I could possibly imagine. Or you could be civilly sued (Paladin Press and the Hit Man book comes to mind).


Also many sites that listed links for programs for removing copy protection on dvd's no longer do this. I believe 2600 was sued over this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act


I don't follow- example of what?

What I mean by example is that when the Domestic Violence Offender Gun Ban was passed it included people that were convicted in the past (grand fathered in). So if you were ever convicted or plead guilty to this charge (Domestic Violence) you could no longer own/purchase or be in possession of a firearm. How the military gets around this is another discussion.:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban

Any examples?

A few, but that would open up another can of worms :)


And now for a few meandering thoughts directed at no one in particular.

I knew when I posted (my previous post) it would stir up a little controversy and would be dissected (like I said in a previous post- don't you just love that quote button) and misunderstood:)

You have to do what you think is right and then be prepared to answer for it. My intentions were to give all members here something to think about as a security measure (I believe some of members here have not had charges brought against them yet in a court of law). I have meet a lot of people (I am sure a few members here have too) who talk about what can and can't be done to you (by the government) and what they are going do to them (the government) if they do. Most was/is school boy bravado, when the fight comes they roll over or run away. Remember the prisons are full of people who know/knew their rights and what the government could and could not do to them.

We have approx 33,331 (as of this writing) members and most are hardly or never heard from; maybe that should tell us something?

To paraphrase a member here and add a little of my own to it: It may be a good thing that we have "morons" (on all sides of the political/religious/race belief spectrum) on this forum. It may be our saving grace.

[Alexires]

What do you suggest we do then Phrankinsteyn?

I would like to hear your suggestions about what we do, and your opinion on such things as "hate crime" and "Big Brother Mentality".

Perhaps we are just taking you the wrong way.

[Cobalt.45]

I think the concern is that the combination of info about explosives and the occasional racially insensitive remark could be the doom of any/all here at rs.org.

But we're an "equal opportunity" offender here- I've read remarks in re rednecks, ass-hats, left and right wingers, Jews, Germans, French, English, Canucks, rag heads, Muslims, Christians, Blacks, the emotionally unstable, "foreigners" in general, every type and description of fuck-ups- the list goes on and on. For anyone to say that we’re against (fill in the blank w/your favorite group) would have a hard time proving it, IMO.:D

I'd just as soon use my own judgement and speak my mind. I wouldn't care much for such a sterile environment that nothing should be said because it might offend some as yet unidentified entity that may or may not even exist.

And speaking of ass hats, is it just me or are those dudes on the Butterfingers commercial that plays on Adult Swim really annoying?:D

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Unless the administration of roguesci (mega) were to openly say "Do illegal shit", I am very doubtful that the gov could take us down. And even if he said something like that, they would have to prove that he meant it.

I'm sure they watch the Forum, but that's all they can really do. I would also be willing to bet good money that federal agents have recreational accounts here, after all, even some of them must be decent fun loving people :p. The worst that they could say is, "They spread information detailing potentially illegal activities." Fortunately, this is still protected by the first amendment.

[Kaydon]

Most of that I couldn't care less about. I say what I like, and nothing can be done about that. Swallowing your pride, biting your tongue, etc. are the acts of the cowardly.

As for "morons could be our saving grace," the more morons we have the less legitimate discussion on this forum becomes. I already exist in a fantasy world ( the double-speak world of real life,) there's no reason for Rogue Sci to turn into another fantasy land. This is one of the few forums with any kind of real information.

Piracy? As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a copyright. ;)

[phrankinsteyn]

Alexires,

Here are a few other ideas. :)

Big Bother: I believe it is watching and will do what is beneficial for control or if an individual (working for Big Brother) his/her career.

Hate crimes: do not, with intent, violate any of the elements of the Federal law/statute.

Doing the things I already mentioned in previous posts.

Must state they are over age of 18 for membership here. Contributing to the delinquency of minor laws come to mind. We all are aware of "the save the children and good of the children" reasoning Big Brother/authorities have and use.

Teaching, without sarcasm or judgement (That is not to mean that they should not use the search engine first- but a little spoon feeding maybe?), all the aspects of science. I believe we should discuss all matters of science and "how to". :) Maybe then some members (remember the approx 33,331) would post more and not be afraid of being called names or being flamed?

A report post button for members to report dangerous (bad science techniques/procedures or posts that appear inappropriate). The moderator(s) could look at the post(s), make that decision, edit or delete posts that they find questionable. I know this is already being done by the moderators to some extent. The moderators could still ban members who refuse to learn (kewls?), incapable of learning or trouble makers. Remember we had to learn too. Our school teachers (the good ones) taught us gradually and helped us along before throwing us out or using inappropriate language (If we don't do the same then the pigs become the farmers- Orwell - Animal Farm). Sometimes is it necessary to ban members/people but only after doing the above first.

Using self restraint and promoting only scientific/how to content. Is not self restraint/control considered one of the maxim's of war, poker, intelligence and maturity:)? By doing this, we are not promoting censorship, sterilization or being cowardly we are sticking to a formula. Our/my intent would be to look out for this site and Mega. There is no need for these things (self censorship/restraint, what appears to be sterilization or cowardice) if we are the sole person to be held responsible for our words or actions. That is not the case here. When it is just you (person posting) that will only be held responsible, talk, write and act as brave as you (person posting) claim, think or believe you (person posting) are. :)

[festergrump]

OR... we can just continue doing what has worked for RS for ~10 years. :rolleyes:

Roguesci is the Explosives and Weapons forum, not a science class. A strictly science forum more to your liking may be sciencemadness.org.

If anyone would like to charge any member or Mega here with the crime of "contibuting to the deliquency of a minor", I dare them. It would be their own lack of parenting that allowed the child to come to this site. Information is NOT only for persons 18 years of age or older. It is NOT regulated like tobacco or alcohol no matter how much the government would like it to be. If you are a minor (under 18) and your parents do not wish you to know about things we discuss here, they should stop you from coming here. It is the responsibility of the parents, not Mega's or the membership's responsibility at all. Furthermore, if the occasional racial slur or whatever bothers you, you can always leave.

What it really boils down to is the right to free speech. The government hates it. We love it. Mega created a haven for it... It is legal and good just the way it is.

[phrankinsteyn]

How would you know if someone here reported us/this site to the authorities or the authorities chose to enforce that law (delinquency of a minor) or any of the other laws they could come up with (considering we are read world wide and there is an entity called INTERPOL) on their own? Then what would you/we be able do if you/we did find out who was responsible? All I could think of would be to start a defense fund; assuming we would be able to get the info out and contact the members (site not down or?). I have read in the NBK threads all the help he has received and is receiving from his friends.:rolleyes:

I appreciate the info on sciencemadness.org., I am aware of them. I like it here, that is way I responded to this thread to begin with even if I may not agree with some of the members or posts here. :)

I realize it is up to Mega to make the final decisions concerning this forum. I hope that all my concerns are in vain, that I am wrong and those that posted about freedom of speech (1st amendment) are right; but look what they have done to the second amendment (the government).

[-=HeX=-]

Well, here is opinion on all that. Seeing as the site discusses so called illegal things like explosives and weapons, we are going to be on a list even for just registering in the first place. I fully expect my door to be kicked in at any second and I am always ready to go. When the jackboots come all they will see is the hastily dropped cigarette and the smashed computer screen (So they cant read screen burns).

We are free men. Lets keep it that way for as long as possible.

[Cobalt.45]

Must state they are over age of 18 for membership here.Unverifiable, IMO.

…a little spoon feeding maybe?Oh, HELL no.

Maybe then some members (remember the approx 33,331) would post more and not be afraid of being called names or being flamed? If the thousands of would-be contributors are afraid of facing the scrutiny of the membership- in all its sarcastic, flame-filled glory- then all I can say is, “Oh well!” Look- anyone who comes here can and should expect to hear all about it if they fuck up. And they do hear all about it. The self-cleansing feature this creates is good, not bad.

A report post button for members to report...posts.... The moderator(s) could...edit or delete posts that they find questionable. I know this is already being done by the moderators to some extent. ... Remember we had to learn too. Already being done to some extent? It’s done nearly daily! Those who are learning shouldn’t be posting in the first place- that’s what the search button’s for. If they need to ask after searching, then they do so, if appropriate. Same as always.

Our school teachers (the good ones) taught us gradually and helped us along before throwing us out or using inappropriate language… And that is all well and good- IF you’re still in the fourth grade! This is a serious hobby/vocation. There’s NO room for hand-holding, coddling and spoon-feeding, for chrissake.


Using self restraint and promoting only scientific/how to content. ... Our/my intent would be to look out for this site and Mega. There is no need for these things (self censorship/restraint, what appears to be sterilization or cowardice) if we are the sole person to be held responsible for our words or actions. That is not the case here. When it is just you (person posting) that will only be held responsible, talk, write and act as brave as you (person posting) claim, think or believe you (person posting) are. :)You miss the point that this isn’t a clinical, sterile classroom. It’s a dynamic, in-your-face forum NOT for the faint of heart. And is very entertaining, to boot. Take all that away and turn this into a lecture hall, and watch the post count evaporate… How are you proposing to make each individual responsible for their posts any more than they already are?

OR... we can just continue doing what has worked for RS for ~10 years. :rolleyes:Amen.

[Alexires]

Thank you, Fester and Cobalt. I couldn't have put it better myself.

The reason others and myself come here is because of the non-sterile environment. Like natural selection, the best information is proven in a baptism of fire. Scrutinised by high school students, laymen, professors and LEO alike, if there is a flaw in an idea it is likely to be found.

I come to The Forum because I know if I fuck up, someone will tell me. It might be hard to stomach for some and it can be brutal sometimes, but at least you know that if your idea sucks, you will know about it.

I come to The Forum because I know I won't need to spend time explaining the basics over and over again. It is a place for me to learn from those better than I, but I learn from research more than I do from them directly telling me. My lack of knowledge spurs me on to find out more, not to be given the knowledge by those more knowledgeable than I.

I come to The Forum because of the freedom I have here. Here, amongst my Flamma Frater, people won't judge me because of my hobby. They don't look at me and say "terrorist".


I come here because it is the way it is. If it were any other way, it would be just another Bombshock or TOTSE, and I would not come here anymore.

Why do you come here, Phrankinsteyn? If you don't like the way The Forum operates, why do you come here?

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Must state they are over age of 18 for membership here. Contributing to the delinquency of minor laws come to mind. We all are aware of "the save the children and good of the children" reasoning Big Brother/authorities have and use.


Unless mega wants to get a fax machine and a dedicated line to take images of members drivers licenses, it will be impossible to verify age. Age verification inherently has to be done on the honor system while online.


Teaching, without sarcasm or judgement (That is not to mean that they should not use the search engine first- but a little spoon feeding maybe?), all the aspects of science.


Absolutely not. If they seem to have researched their question, and speak well, then yes; their question will probably be answered. But we (mods) will ban every last trolling fucker who posts a "how doo i mak teh AP??/?" thread. It is far more rude to ignore rules, and demand members take time out of their day than to simply UTSFE and do their own research.


I believe we should discuss all matters of science and "how to". :)


When a board moves to encompass everything in a very large field, it will eventually falter and die. If you want to talk chemistry and E&W, come here. If you want to talk about something else, talk about it on the appropriate site. One of the reasons that RS has been so successful is that it is very specialized. The members here talk about one thing, and they really know their shit about it.


Maybe then some members (remember the approx 33,331) would post more and not be afraid of being called names or being flamed?


Part of venturing out into the world (online, or in real life) involves accepting criticism and harsh words from other people. If they say something foolish, they must accept responsibility for their actions.


A report post button for members to report dangerous (bad science techniques/procedures or posts that appear inappropriate). The moderator(s) could look at the post(s), make that decision, edit or delete posts that they find questionable. I know this is already being done by the moderators to some extent.


That's pretty much what the button is for. However, it is not used very often for whatever reason. When a post is reported, it is dealt with - always - not most of the time.


The moderators could still ban members who refuse to learn (kewls?), incapable of learning or trouble makers. Remember we had to learn too. Our school teachers (the good ones) taught us gradually and helped us along before throwing us out or using inappropriate language (If we don't do the same then the pigs become the farmers- Orwell - Animal Farm). Sometimes is it necessary to ban members/people but only after doing the above first.


If we took our time to hold every HE curious teenager's hand, we would never get anything else done. Either they can read the answers by UTSFE, or they can go somewhere else (eg, TOTSE). IMO, only those with the patience and the brains to actually follow the rules and research their own questions are worthy of this (RS) sort of knowledge.

EDIT:

Just saw what Cobalt had to say, it seems we think rather similarly about this :).

[festergrump]

What concerns me even more than the government's dislike for freedom (of speech... or any kind), Phrank, is that there are actually people on this Earth who rather than exercise their rights to the full extent of "legality" (:rolleyes:) would willingly conform to how the government would 'like them to be' in order to sidestep any interest the government might take in the statements or actions they make. This is not in the spirit of Roguesci at all. Not even close.

A right not exercised (much like a muscle) will atrophy. I hate it, but it seems to be true in this day and age. Even a right that is "licensed" ceases to be a right at all. It has then become "permission". You know this from various government's views on firearms and some country's Second Amendment, yes? (you mentioned it, so I bring it back up to light). We are all well into this loss of rights, but that's another topic in and of itself, perhaps, like you said.

So the real question is: Are you going to exercise your rights NOW or merely wish you had the chance when you truly want or feel the need to, but it may have since become illegal to do so all of a sudden? Now it is okay, later it may not be.

I'm truly at a loss for how some people say they want to keep their rights but will not lift a finger to keep them, let alone have the courage to even USE them while they are well within the rights of the "law" to do just that... :confused: (Oh, how our forefathers must spin in their graves at the population's collective cowardice while they risked their very lives for us to have them!). And these same people come to RS? To learn? Or to apparently suck the teat of freedom with no real repercussions or fear of retaliation by government agents, morelike. :mad:

If I am on a government list for being here and speaking freely here, so what. IMHO, it's better to die standing up than kneeling down.

BTW, did you mention INTERPOL in your last post? You did. LOL! (that's rich. Thanks for the laugh). Yeah, they'll be at my door anytime now for a misdemeanor charge of "contributing to delinquency". :rolleyes: Ed McMahon would sooner knock on my door with a huge check in hand and cameras in tow or GWB for my free lesson on 'How to be Liked by Everyone'...

[phrankinsteyn]

:confused: and laughing. Where do I start on these replies? I will try to make it short as I can. I see that this has gone way off track with the dissection of my posts. When you dissect something and take it out of context you can put it back anyway you want. I see political and religious leaders doing this often. :)


Cobalt.45 and Hinckleyforpresident,

I agree with you concerning age. It would only be an honor type system and that was what I meant when I posted it. Even with a fax machine you could always use someone else's ID. It would just be a precaution and a argument that you could use in the site's defense in a worse case scenario.

Hinckleyforpresident, I was not referring to the current report button. Apparently I should have explained my meaning and reasoning better.


fester,

The remark about INTERPOL was not meant for us here in the USA. It was meant for the members overseas. Glad it gave you a laugh though, you have given me a few in your posts. :)
Also contributing to the delinquency of an minor was part of the examples of charges and possible charges that could be brought (along with the charges that was brought against RaisetheFist.com) as requested by Cobalt.45 "more info" (post number 14) and also taken out on context by you.

I do agree with you about exercising our/your rights. I don't believe any of us here are afraid to exercise our rights. Otherwise we would not be members here exchanging information or discussing this or other ideas.:)

[festergrump]

I knew when I posted (my previous post) it would stir up a little controversy...

...and there you have it, just what you knew was coming. :) I'm sure the controversy you stirred did more good than harm, so... :cool:

Glad we could oblige you.

[Cobalt.45]

I see that this has gone way off track with the dissection of my posts. When you dissect something and take it out of context you can put it back anyway you want. I see political and religious leaders doing this often.Oh, it's on track, alright. Just not heading in the direction you hoped for.

I see no instances what-so-ever where you were misquoted. ZERO.:confused:
Hell, your original post is right in this same thread for all to see. That you raise this non-issue is the very sort of tactic you attribute to "political and religious leaders "!

Here is your statement, your own words: How would you know if someone here reported us/this site to the authorities or the authorities chose to enforce that law (delinquency of a minor) or any of the other laws they could come up with (considering we are read world wide and there is an entity called INTERPOL) on their own?Fester's reference to INTERPOL and contributing to the delinquency of a minor (BTW, a charge you seem overly sensitive to and concerned with, IMO) was (to me) "humor by irony", as it were. NOT taken out of context, IMO.

But in an all-business, info-only, no kidding around, politically correct version of rs.org, I suppose this would get you a reprimand.:rolleyes:

So you planted a tree. You barked up it. Turns out to be the wrong tree.:p

Time to move on.

[phrankinsteyn]

Cobalt.45,

In response to your last post #35.

I see no instances what-so-ever where you were misquoted. ZERO.:confused:
I did not say in my last post (#33) I was misquoted. I said "dissection" and "out of context".

The post (and I quote myself) "How would you know if someone here reported us/this site to the authorities or the authorities chose to enforce that law (delinquency of a minor) or any of the other laws they could come up with (considering we are read world wide and there is an entity called INTERPOL) on their own?" in post number 27 was a response and a question directed to fester's post from post 26 when he stated "I dare them". I should have addressed the question directly to him.

But in an all-business, info-only, no kidding around, politically correct version of rs.org, I suppose this would get you a reprimand.:rolleyes:Time to move on. Even in the water cooler? :p

You are right "Time to move on".:)

[Thermiteisfun]

it is my opinion that while we provide "information of evil intent" our apparent responsibility, attitude, and dedication to the field will prevail.

I'm certain that if someone were to post here asking for help on a task that would threaten our freedom and harm others unnecessarily the members would step up and use the pigs on them. I believe that protects us to some extant from prosecution.


we are just having fun learning..... and I see nothing nothing wrong with that

[Vitalis]

it is my opinion that while we provide "information of evil intent" our apparent responsibility, attitude, and dedication to the field will prevail.

I'm certain that if someone were to post here asking for help on a task that would threaten our freedom and harm others unnecessarily the members would step up and use the pigs on them. I believe that protects us to some extant from prosecution.


we are just having fun learning..... and I see nothing nothing wrong with that


I don't believe that information can have "intent", only the person those chooses to use the information.

As far as someone asking for help on a task that would harm others, that's what the Banned for Life sub-forum is for.

[festergrump]

Phrankinsteyn, just to maybe help you understand why it may seem to you that your posts are being dissected, taken out of context, or misunderstood: Have you ever considered NOT changing your posts so much after you you hit the Submit Reply button?

Every single one of your posts in this thread have been editted at least once. I have personally witnessed you change two posts of yours three times each already (for content, not syntax), and five out of six posts of yours have been editted up to TWO HOURS after you posted them initially!

One almost has to wait two hours or break the rules and quote your entire post when replying to you just to pin you down to having said any one thing at all. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to sometimes clean up a post and change a few mispelled words here and there but your use of the edit button is just plain irresponsible, if not an attempt at deliberately misleading those not in agreement with you.

Vitalis, I could be wrong but I gathered that "information of evil intent" was dripping with sarcasm. ;)

[Vitalis]

I'm sure it was sarcastic, I just wanted to add my own thoughts on the subject. I, like so many others here, am sick to death of certain people blaming knowledge for society's ills.

[slarter]

I'm sure it was sarcastic, I just wanted to add my own thoughts on the subject. I, like so many others here, am sick to death of certain people blaming knowledge for society's ills.

Almost all of society's ills can be directly attributed to either ignorance or stupidity.

As for age, I know 15 year olds that are smart as hell and 40 year olds that couldn't pour piss from a boot with instructions printed on the heel. Age has nothing to do with intelligence.

[phrankinsteyn]

Festergrump,

The edit button is there for that reason, to edit your posts it is not irresponsible (that's your opinion) other wise Mega would not have it or allow it. Maybe in my case it should expire faster. :) And after I edit my post(s) I still find misspelled words and bad syntax(?). Good thing I can't go back now and edit the old ones for errors. LOL

I have not tried to mislead anyone, look at the responses :D. Show me where I changed content or tried to mislead. One way to check if I deleted or altered content in my posts would be to check the time stamp of when I lasted edited the post and then the time that it was responded to by a member. If I was quoted that content would be missing in my post. Or copy an unedited post of mine, in its entirety, see if I changed anything thing after I was responded to by a member and forward it to a moderator or call me on it.

I will continue to use the edit button up until the time it expires, so members may want to wait 2 hours before they respond. :D I am always finding something in them (the posts).

I know you and I don't see eye to on most things but I appreciate your critique. I mean that sincerely (try not to breakout out in tears though). :)

[Hinckleyforpresident]

@phrank

How about you just READ your post before you post it, eh?

You should not ever be posting anything until you have proof read it and decide you like the way it is.

[Alexires]

I think that is enough, gentlemen.

Even though there is little moderation in The Water Cooler the is still SOME moderation.

If you have a problem with someone, talk about it via PM.

Personally, I don't think the edit function should be used to massively edit your posts a reasonable time after you have posted them; it should be used to correct grammatical and spelling errors as well as perhaps remove something SCIENTIFICALLY erroneous that you mistakenly put, but shouldn't be used just because you changed your mind.

But that is my opinion.

Still, I think that the he said she said bullshit can stop now. Lets keep on topic in the spirit of the OP, yeah?

[megalomania]

Ahh, a topic near and dear to my heart, and a question I have deliberated over, in all probability, more than anyone else. This should not be a surprise considering the fate of the site affects me far more personally. I have arrived at a consensus of what I believe are the reasons the site has lasted more than a decade online.

First, I am not political. I may rattle the saber about corruption and injustice now and then, but I don’t involve myself beyond whatever news story happens to cross my desk. I don’t advocate anything one way or another violence wise, I don’t dislike any group or individual enough to want to do any harm, and I don’t encourage anyone else to either.

Long ago I decided politics is too much a waste of my time when there is science to be learned. To be politically knowledgeable and well informed you have to spend a lot of time studying what is going on. To me, this is time wasted when I could be learning more chemistry. I am content to let other people worry about politicking, and I am resigned to the fact my vote is almost worthless. I only vote because my local town government always has a tax increase on the ballot, and often these are close races differing by 20-30 votes. I vote no on ALL taxes out of principle (spite is a better word). While I am there I vote on whatever else is on the card.

Second, I do not in any way shape or form offer “bomb making” information on the site. That stuff does not interest me because I am not out to blow anything up. Considering the proposed laws to date that do step on the 1st Amendment all have a provision criminalizing teaching someone to make a bomb with the knowledge they will use it in the furtherance of a criminal act, I would say it is goo my interests do not lie there.

I could not very well look my mother in the eye and tell her I teach people how to make bombs without feeling guilty, and that feeling would be my conscious telling me I am doing something wrong. I don’t have that feeling with what I am doing now, and have always done with the site. The site was, and still is, built to get people interested in chemistry. Rogue Science is a beneficial teaching tool, and that is something I can be proud of. We give serious discussion to topics that would not be allowed on soccer mom sites, or would degenerate into idiotic chaos on anarchy sites.

For a good example of what not to do, consider the website Raise the Fist. That guy published bomb making material with the express desire that it be used to kill Americans for some reason I have forgotten (probably Islamic). What actually got him into trouble were the unregistered automatic weapons the fedgov found on his property when they raided him. Constitutionally, RTF may have had a fighting chance on 1st amendment grounds, but the weapons charge trumps everything, so the closing of the website never came under scrutiny.

If the fedgov hit me they would find no guns, drugs, explosives, or anything more sinister than my pile of microwave ovens and a cat with way sharper claws than you would think possible. I think I underpaid my taxes by $7 back in 2000, and I tend to drive 30mph in 25mph zones because that’s as slow as my car goes. I don’t drink, I don’t smoke, I don’t use drugs, I don’t buy teenage hookers, I don’t gamble, I don’t travel, I don’t use the phone, I don’t have any magazine subscriptions, I don’t belong to any clubs or organizations, I don’t blare loud music at 4AM, I don’t have people coming and going at odd hours, and I never answer emails asking about weapons.

My parents, on the other hand, are the real criminals. They have the audacity to actually save up for something before they buy it, and then the fiends pay in actual cash money! Cash, for God’s sake, who does that I ask you? Criminal scum, that’s who! No credit cards, no mortgage, no car payments… It’s unnatural and un-American. Who knows what terrorist schemes they are concocting with the money they don’t spend on interest, fees, fines, and penalties? It’s people like them, paying their bills on time, in full, that ruined those nice banks. You see, I never had a chance turning out the way I did.

There you have it folks, a few good reason why we still stand. I suppose it must be a public relations disaster to convince the public I am some dangerous criminal writing a website using mostly fedgov published data as my source material. That, and the site would be 100 times more popular than it is now if it got shut down. They would have to argue the 1st amendment merits of their actions, and by God as my witness that is a fight I would gladly spend every ounce of my money and energy fighting. The chance to ruin your life in such a spectacular fashion is not something I could pass up, especially if it means dragging the fedgov into the harsh glare of the public.