Full auto 12 gauge shotgun - Archive File

[Anthony]

Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 13, 2001 09:33 PM
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Just thinking...
Is it possible to use a simple blowback design, similar to the Sten, to build a full auto shotgun out of? I've been thinking about this quite a bit and I haven't seen any problems yet (other than finding the mainspring...)


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 13, 2001 09:46 PM
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I've also wondered if anyone ever made a full auto shot gun.
Problems might be, insane recoil and needing a huge mag (physical size not capacity) to hold a decent amount of ammo.

Also, why do you need to hit someone more than once with a 12 bore? If you use large buckshot then each individual piece of shot may be capable of killing someone, so you've already got multiple kills with one shot.

The purpose I imagine for full auto rifle/pistol is to put as much metal into the air as possible, as qucikly as possible. You're already doing this with a shotgun.


Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 13, 2001 09:55 PM
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whoa...my shoulder gets sore after shooting 100 rounds at regular intervals at the trap range....i couldnt imagine a full auto..might even break your collarbone/scapula


endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 13, 2001 10:04 PM
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i imagine the shaking of the weapon due to the recoil severely disrupting your accuracy. you start shooting at the gorund after 6 shots in one second the gun would be facing the sky with a full auto 12...well probably not...just an exaggeration to prove my point


PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 13, 2001 10:15 PM
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you would ned the tip of the barrel to be weighted and a weight distribution harness


Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 13, 2001 11:26 PM
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Whoops, my bad. I forgot to mention that it'd be mounted like a turret. This is the reason for the full auto, it could cover a helluva lot of territory or advancing troops.
I was also thinking about using a combination of 00 buckshot and slugs, so that it (them ) could also stop veichles.
I was thinking this because of cost of ammo, it's a bitch to find reasonable 50 cal shells, but 12 ga ammo isn't that steep.
[This message has been edited by Igenx (edited February 13, 2001).]


vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 13, 2001 11:39 PM
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You can buy blowback semi auto shotties that could be converted to FA, check this link out: <a href="http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga12.htm" target="_blank">http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga12.htm</a>


SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 14, 2001 12:26 AM
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There have been some FA scattercanons, the USAS 12 (looks like an m16), and the CAWS (hk design) that used special ammo. The striker12 might have been FA in special config I'm not sure. I think most semi-auto shoguns are blow back, the remington 1100 can be converted to FA but I have no info on it. The saiga12 is a 12ga variant of the AK47, and is gas operated, not sure about FA.
There are a number of pump shotguns without a disconnect (trigger can be held down) like the winchester 97 and mind fart 37 (can't remeber) also you can get a kit for the remington 870.

As far as a do it yourself kinda deal I don't see why not.

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"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug


BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 14, 2001 01:49 AM
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Sofaking the model "37" that you are refering to is a Ithaca model 37 "deerslayer".
I have two.. and yes you can just hold the trigger back, and keep pumping to fire.

Back to topic...

Ok.. there are actually a few full auto shotguns out there already.
I havn't been able to see any of the inner workings of them... but here's some links to get you drooling

The SEBURO "SPARTA" isn't exactly full auto, but three shot bursts are more practical anyhow.
Its at: <a href="http://members.spree.com/sip/d-roc/abupdate/handguns/shotguns.htm" target="_blank">http://members.spree.com/sip/d-roc/abupdate/handguns/shotguns.htm</a>

The Franchi Prototype .410 Full-Auto Shotgun is at:
<a href="http://spas12.com/spas12not.htm" target="_blank">http://spas12.com/spas12not.htm</a>

And this sweet and VERY expensive one, the PANCOR JACKHAMMER MK 3 A1 12 Gauge - 10 shot rotary magazine Select Fire Machine Gun is at:
<a href="http://www.att-tactical.com/Pancor.html" target="_blank">http://www.att-tactical.com/Pancor.html</a>

Those are just a few that i have looked at... but i'm sure there are more.

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BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.


Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 14, 2001 01:40 PM
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I have read that sten-type blowback in a SA shotgun is a bad idea due to the higher pressures involved. It says so in Bill Holmes's gun design book.


Brainmonkey
A new voice
Posts: 37
From: Derry, N. Ireland
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 14, 2001 03:45 PM
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hey i took a look at that Pancor, that is one sweet bit of machinery, it almost looks like it Belongs on BWS site. IF it was a bit cheaper, that wouold be a nice piece to go out with, not too many folks would mess with you after looking at it, well thats my say on it, if i had one i wouldnt be here, id be out shootin it, 12ga ammo is dirt cheap


Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 14, 2001 06:27 PM
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Here's the images from the Pancor, courtesy of the US Patient office. <a href="http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04709617__" target="_blank">http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04709617__</a>


vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 14, 2001 06:49 PM
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Problem with the fa and select fire shotguns is that they are kind of exotic and expensive.


SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 14, 2001 07:49 PM
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Ithaca 37 yes that's it thanks that was driving me nuts.
The Jackhammer is real nice gun that I used in fallout2.


angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 281
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 17, 2001 07:51 PM
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resoil absorbing stocks would be useful on a full auto shotgun.
they use a sring to absorb recoil,
apparently a shotgun would feel like a .22, with a well made stock

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angelo's place
have a good link? add it here


PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 17, 2001 10:56 PM
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I would not say it would feel like a 22 it would feel like a medium sized rifle caliber there would be sugnifigant muzzle lift too! would a muzzle break wor on a shotgun?


atropine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 129
From: wales
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 18, 2001 05:26 AM
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First thing i wanna make auto when i can get parts, is a mortar. Im thinking 60-70 rounds a min. That would be impressive. And with the shotgun, wouldnt the barrel be glowing red. You would need to use the plans for the vickars watercooled machine gun.


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 11:28 AM
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Why would ten rounds from a shotgun heat the barrel more than 100 rifle rounds???


The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 18, 2001 12:51 PM
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Shotgun shells are actually relatively cool compared to rifle rounds. The powders burn much quicker and less volume is used. The barrels being thinner and larger also have a greater surface area. Rifles use much larger volumes of slow burning powders and have thick barrels. But guns made to shoot full auto typically are always fitted with chrome lined barrels to help handle the heat and abuse. Shotguns do deal with higher pressure spikes, so that might impede performance/safety, as noted by Bitter.
Shotguns don't generally have muzzle breaks, but they can be ported. Porting doesn't do so much to significanly reduce recoil, but muzzle rise is reduced quite a bit.

Hmmm wonder if a spring behind the bolt on an Ithaca 37 could somehow make it full auto. I have a 37 Featherweight with a poly choke. It's too nice to screw around with, sorry.


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 20, 2001 10:19 AM
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Here's some information Will emailed to me to post, he wants to give something back to theforum at which he lurks:

"I also added a picture of a revolver shotgun,
it is not realy full auto although it shoots as fast as an auto if needed it is based on "fanning shooting" like what you see in the old cowboy movies you hold the trigger in and with the other hand you pull back the hammer as fast as possible the firing rate in this way is high almost as high as auto firing. only these people made it in an other way there is not trigger only the front grip is pushed back and forth as fast as possible the rod on the top pushing back the hammer
and rotating the cilinder. I know it is not full auto but I think that is someone has good! materials(higher quality steelfor instance from old car and motor parts) and some tools he can make one."

(I've made the pictures links because they are physically too big to fit on this page - Anthony)
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun1.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun2.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun3.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun3.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun4.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/shotgun4.jpg</a>

Will also mentions having had his ports scanned on several occassions when on this forum, is this just a member messing about or is theforum being monitored?


Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 20, 2001 01:44 PM
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Quoting from 'Home workshop prototype firearms' by Bill Holmes :
'It should be noted that 'straight blowback' is practical only in firearms chambered for low or medium pressure cartridges, mostly pistol cartridges of low to medium power. The reason for this is that the breech of such guns are not locked at the moment of firing. Only the weight of the breech block usually combined with the forward pressure from the springs keeps the action closed at the instant of firing. Also, since the pressure generated by burning powder is exerted in all directions, it pushes the cartridge case walls outward against the chamber as well as the head, or base portion of the case to the rear against the breechblock and out of the chamber with the same amount of force applied to the base of the bullet to push it up the bore. Therefore, the bolt, or breechblock must be of sufficient weight to remain closed until the bullet is well up or out of the bore and the pressure has diminished significantly. If it opens too soon, it will either pull the head off the cartridge case, since the walls grip the chamber case, or it will blow the case apart. Either case is extremely hazardous since it allows hot gasses to escape from the breech end, sometimes accompanied by bits of metal from the cartridge case.'

Apparently applies to both open and closed bolt guns...

[stickfigure]

Here are a few FA shotguns that I can think of:

USAS-12
Siaga-12, 20, 410 Russian Military Only
AAI CAW
USAC FAS-12, FAS-173
HK CAW
S&W AS-2, AS-3
Pancor Mk3-A1 Full-Auto only
Remington 7188, A1, A2, Mk. 1-6, Seal mods. used in Vietnam. There's a Combat Arms Mag with it in it. Also there's a book by J.M. Ramos called Remington T100 Exotic Weapons System for converting a Rem. 1100. A quote from Duncan Long about the 7188 "The selector for the 7188 replaced the safety at the rear of the trigger guard so that the user choice between safe, semi-automatic, or full-automatic fire". A good book about Scatterguns is "Streetsweepers" by Duncan Long.

There were a lot of prototypes that were made during the late 70's and early 80's, and most of those programs were canceled. But FA shotguns are out there, waiting to be reborn. For those who can be bothered.

[blacktalon]

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=573

[Spudkilla]

Full auto shotgun = Total crowd control. Just imagine, a 12 inch barrel, firing 12 gauge shot gun rounds full auto, right at a large group of people. As effective, if not more so, than a suicide bomber. Since the shooter would be in control, people would not be able to escape, and would be in constant danger, whereas, bomb explodes, it's over, they run.

I'm not much into the technical aspects of firearms, though I would like to be, so I can't contribute much there. I doubt full auto would be a good thing on a shotgun though. After about 3 to 4 shots, your muzzle would probably be vertical, and you wouldn't have a shoulder. I have shot several full-auto weapons, inluding the MP5. The kick is practically non-exisetent, but after about 8 - 10 shots going full auto, you would literally be shooting the ceiling of the firing range. I did it once :(

[Mmanwitgun88]

A FA shotgun would be out of ammo exremely quickly considering most semi autos only hold 3 or 4 rounds. Your best bet would be to have some vehicle mounted version, preferably drum fed (I'm thinking like the anti aircraft dual M2 setup). Since shotgun powder is so fast burning you would probably have to decrease the ROF. Theres no point in wasting all the ammo in 2 seconds. Sure FA is great, but theres a point where enough is enough.
~Dave

[blacktalon]

I have witnessed a couple of people firing FA shotguns and they actually don't have the muzzle rise that you would imagine. They do get rocked around quite a bit though. (1 oz of lead 0-900fps in a millisecond...) FA shotguns are generally a pretty bulky package which soaks up some of the kick, then the bolt spring system sokes up further more, but if you have a suppressor, you are golden. I once saw a guy firing a FA Saiga 12 with a suppressor. Let me tell you, a suppressor is the worlds greatest muzzle break! It was impressive how little he actually moved. Anyway, with the exception of about two countries, if you make a machinegun in your home you are going to jail for a long time. Why not go on and slap a suppressor on it too?

[I_am_the_Black_one]

Due to the nature of a full auto you would need a lage mag (as mentioned before). If its going to be mounted why not build a belt fed shotty. You may be able to convert the belts of a m60. Due to the size you could use every second hole on the belt, you would convert the o rings on them tho. Cut em off and replace with a 12g variant. I don’t know if this will work its just a idle idea that popped into my head


EDIT: You could even use cloth to link the shells like they did in the we old days:D

[Mmanwitgun88]

Black One, if you've ever operated a 60 then you would know the feeding problems that can occur with a belt fed. If you have a drum holding the belt close to it (like on in the SAW) you'll be alright. Otherwise the angle of an unsupported belt can cause feed issues. As for altering 60 links to hold a 12 ga, by making it long enough to fit a 12 ga it won't fit around it well enoug. Think of the difference between 7.62 and a 12 ga. Of course I think a FA 12 ga is overly excessive. Anyone who thinks its needed, shoot of a 6o you don't need a FA shotgun. Anyways 1 shot of 00 buckshot to someones gut it like blowing an entire magazine into someone.
~Dave

[HypersonicGamer]

Converting a shotgun to a belt-fed automatic is very unconventional and has no possible use. If you plan on assaulting a burglar, plan to get a new house, and if you want to shoot slugs at someone from far away, use a rifle or a proper assault rifle/machine gun. Additionally, there would likely be feed and ejection problems.

It'd be a fun weapon to shoot if it could work flawlessly though. :D

[Bitter]

Imagine the weight of the ammo you would have to carry to feed it.

[nbk2000]

A gatling gun with gravity fed hopper would be the easiest way to go, and could be electrically powered for variable firing rates. :)

Imagine 1,000 RPM of 12 gauge into a crowd of muds! BWAHAHAHA!

[HypersonicGamer]

How can you imagine something that isn't even there? :p ;) :p

Well...I can see red and lots of it. :D

Anyone agree that Mr. Mini-Gun in Black Hawk Down should have been used more extensively?! (Yes, also concerning the actual mission!)

[Anthony]

Nice to see you're putting more thought into your posts...

[Yorki_pyro]

For sheer simplicity you could just cut/file off the disconnector of a semi auto.

[jackhammer]

Finally, a post about my namesake. Originally, the jackhammer was going to be a fully automatic twelve guage which could be emptied in between 2 and 3 seconds. It could fire flachettes, buckshot, slugs, grenades, gas, and an assortmant of other things. Also, the ammo cassette could be used as an anti-personnell mine. As far as I know, however, this gun is still only floating around as a prototype. As for the HK and Olin Close Assault Weapons Systems, new work was done to make the brass shells, and they had shot capable of puncturing steel at 150 yards, which isn't shabby for a shotgun. However, this project was also ended. Fully automatic shotguns just haven't been very popular. I don't even see the ol' USAS 12 with a 10 round clip and 20 round drum around as much (of course, I'm not serving anymore, but there are still gun shows). Ranger code, when the going gets tough, the tough go cyclic.

[MP5Guy]

Due to the nature of a full auto you would need a lage mag (as mentioned before). If its going to be mounted why not build a belt fed shotty. You may be able to convert the belts of a m60. Due to the size you could use every second hole on the belt, you would convert the o rings on them tho. Cut em off and replace with a 12g variant. I don’t know if this will work its just a idle idea that popped into my head


EDIT: You could even use cloth to link the shells like they did in the we old days:D

Tell Me One More Time How Your Going To Convert These M60 Links Exactly???

MP

http://www.hunt101.com/img/110473.jpg

[Yorki_pyro]

I'd say it is immpossible to fit a 12 gauge shell into an M60 link with any sort of modification you could do at home, what about a .410 shotgun though, i dont have the pleasure of owning one so maybe someone could measure the O/D of a .410 shell.

[JoeJablomy]

I guess it's beyond practical means to try to build a reliable auto shotgun from scratch, but nevertheless I think I might be able to clarify some of the theory involved in this discussion.
From what I understand, shotguns shoot heavy projectiles with probably moderate sectional densities. They accelerate these to low velocities using small quantities of fast burning powder, which means that the powder charge has a modest (but not really that big, due to the small charge) burning surface area. If I remember right, a 12GA round has about halt the powder of a .223 round, but of course it's much finer, so I'd bet their total burn rates are pretty similar, except that the 12GA charge would burn much faster at a given pressure than the .223 charge.
There are now two differences that you should keep in mind:
1. I can't make an exact calculation, but the 12GA charge pushes on an area about 12 times as big as the .223, and also fills a volume 12 times bigger with gas.
2. The 12GA therefore has a much lower pressure because while it may be pushing something with a higher sectional density (SD obviously determines how fast a projectile will accelerate for a given pressure), the gas is expanding much faster to fill the bore, and since the pressure is lower, the total burn rate is lower, and the equilibrium pressure and burn rate are way lower than in a rifle round. You need a fast powder to keep it this high, if you use so little.
Overall, the round has a low pressure (hence the plastic case walls) but a high impulse because of the really heavy projectile. This also affects recoil because the proportion of the gun's recoil energy to the projectile's muzzle energy is the same as the mass ratio between the two. This also applies to the bolt of a blowback gun.
If the impulse of the round is 1 oz @900 fps=900 oz.f/s, then you would need a 180 oz breech block if you wanted 5 fps. I think about 15 fps is supposed to be good, so you could make do with a 60 oz block, which means a 3.75 lbs block moving back and forth really fast inside your gun. For the turret mounted gun, that might even be practical, but be warned: that number sounds way the hell too low to me. Don't try this at home.
I have a few ideas for long recoil actions, and they might be best suited for this. A long recoil action should help dampen the reciol and keep the ROF down.
Finally, there's converting a saiga or similar. For a turret mounted or similar gun, you could try just using a "bolt locked" sensor to trip a solenoid on the trigger. The sensor might just be a contact that touches the charging handle or the bolt carrier when it comes all the way forward, or perhaps a bit sooner to compensate for the solenoid delay time. The biggest problem I see with this is that I really doubt a saiga can stand up to very much FA fire.

[Yorki_pyro]

could use every second hole on the belt

Another reason why M60 belt would not work, the M60 uses a disintegrating link belt, so each round holds one link and the individual links are only connected by the bullet if you know what I mean, anyone who has seen a belt should do. so if you used every second hole you'd have no belt at all!

[blacktalon]

Yorki,
Just to point out, filing down, cuttin off or just removing the sear from an ak style weapon like the saiga will not result in full auto fire. You would actully then have single shot weapon because the hammer will ride against the bolt after the origional trigger pull, which will not have enough gusto to pop the primer. If you want fa, you need a sear trip and lever.

[Yorki_pyro]

Ah right, sorry for the mistake. If this is true then how does this work on a semi automatic pistol?

[MP5Guy]

The Hammer will indeed just follow the Bolt if one were to just file or eliminate the Disconnector..

But ANY Semi Auto Weapon can be redesigned to fire Full or Select Fire with the addition of an Auto Sear and machining of the Bolt Carrier to trip said Auto Sear at the proper time of Bolt Lock Up. The Auto Sear will retain the Hammer until the Bolt has reached Approx. 97% of it's foward motion to lock up at which time the Auto Sear is tripped by the Bolt Carrier.

Stories of Filing the Disconnector to produce a Full Auto Mode are many but Pure BS. Best you are going to achieve is the occasional Double and any further endevor will generally produce an "Out Of Battery" Slam Fire that is going to ruin your day not to mention the weapon.

MP

[zaibatsu]

Some ideas on belt fed shotguns.

The main problem as I see it is the rim of the shotgun. Ok, this may not work for 12g, but a .410 shells have been made from a .303 shell, blown out, so I'm thinking that it's pretty likely that the same can be done with a .308 shell. Seeing at that's rimless, you'd have a lot less problems with a belt fed design.

[MP5Guy]

I'm linking some 7.62 X 51 (.308) and I thought some may never have seen how it is done. Note the 2 Links on top of a box of ammo in the pic. The one on the left is a M60 Link and the one on the right is an IZZY 1919 Link. These are for a Registered 1919 Machinegun.

MP

http://www.hunt101.com/img/111135.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/111136.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/111138.jpg

[MP5Guy]

Some ideas on belt fed shotguns.

The main problem as I see it is the rim of the shotgun. Ok, this may not work for 12g, but a .410 shells have been made from a .303 shell, blown out, so I'm thinking that it's pretty likely that the same can be done with a .308 shell. Seeing at that's rimless, you'd have a lot less problems with a belt fed design.

You will find that a .45 Long Colt (.45LC) and a 410 ga. are almost identical in diameter. Infact Thompson Center offers a .45LC/410 Combo Barrel for their Contender and Super Contender Handgun. The rim would be the shortcoming as you state in that a Deep Claw Type Extractor could not be employed due to rim of the cartridge meeting the cartridge wall at 90 degrees.

I would think that one could work up loads using 30-06 brass that had been cut at the shoulder or by completely expanding the shoulder and neck since it has the same rim and wall deminsions of the .45 ACP whose bullet
has the same .451" diameter as the .45 LC. This round could then be loaded in M60 or 1919 Links. At this point the Deep Claw Extractor could be used.

Alot of work though for such a Mousey Load of shot you must agree.

MP

[Jacks Complete]

So the agreement is that you can't actually use a standard shell for a belt feed.

How about if we went up a notch, and tried something more like a mini-gun? The rims would then be an advantage, as the breech blocks could not fail to extract, and they would have plenty to hold. The higher mass of the gun would also aid controllability.

Yes, I would suggest a mount for it!

Going the other way, how about trying something like a wad over the powder of whatever you are shooting, and mid-size shot? In something like a .45 or .44, you could have a sort of duplex or triplex round, or some shot, with card over that. (There might be an issue with the rifling, though - might need a driving band that freely rotates to stop the shot coming out sideways)

[MP5Guy]

You still have a very small amount of shot to push. A wad over a modest charge of say Unique or HP38 pushing maybe 3 00 Buck Pellets at .330" or 3 000 Buck pellets at .360" might be fesible for a Duplex Load.

MP

[zaibatsu]

I've got a PDF somewhere on my other computer about loading .45ACP up as shot cartridges. The fact that people use these to kill snakes worries me a little, but it seems pertinent so I'll see what I can do and try and get it.

[spat]

I know that a 12 gauge round is about the same diameter as a .50BMG cartridge, maybe something could be done w/ 50 links.

I was toying with the idea of making a battery powered belt feed mechanism that would basically strip the rounds from the belt and stick 'em in the gun that way. It wouldn't be anywhere as elegant as using the power from the last round to fire, but it would be much easier to design. Plus, the paintball crowd has been using seperate battery power to feed rounds for a long time, and they have to have millions (if not billions) of rounds through seperate electrical feed devices.

[Anthony]

The only battery powered feed I've seen on a paintball gun was a sort-of rotating disc that assisted the gravity feed from the hopper to the gun.

Paintball guns are rather different from most firearms in two ways: one, the "round" is spherical, and so very easy to feed. Secondly, There is no cartridge left behind after the round is fired, so you also need an extraction and ejection stage.

So IMO, it's a bit more complex.

[heaton3805]

First off: MP5Guy "Stories of Filing the Disconnector to produce a Full Auto Mode are many but Pure BS."......No offense, but apparently you've never tried fitting a new disconnector on a .45 cal 1911...If you're not careful and do it right, the thing WILL fire off a full mag faster than hell...It'll make the crap jump right out of you!!! I'll NEVER make that screwup again! :eek:

Second: Worry not!!! I've been working on a little project for the last year and a half. There's four actually: .410, 12ga, 7.62 X 39, and standard pistol sizes...

Abit of food for thought...It's close to the BullPup design with a shorter stock that the buttstock actually rests against your bicep (YES! I said against your bicep), and the ammo is fed similiarly to that of the old .22 Calico (100 rnd "swirling" rotory mag, for the Calico) which went out of business years ago. It's kinda heavy at the moment, I'm trying to make it abit lighter, but there's barely any lift at all (afew inches, depending on ammo), even at full auto. I wish I could upload some pics, but it's not completely finished yet, and I don't have the patent on it yet...I expect it to be finished within the next 1-2 years, so just sit tight. The next project will be trying to make a civilian version, though I don't think it'll quite as enjoyable as the military versions... :(

[CypherNinja]

I stumbled across this vid yesterday and thought I'd post the link......

Should serve as food for thought for a few people here, as it shows how shows how such weapons handle (one example anyway). I'm not sure thats FA, but its definately rapid fire for a shotgun. :D

http://amishgeek.com/misc/vids/automaticshotgun.wmv

EDIT: Upon closer reexamination, that apears to definately be FA. :D What can I say? It was late the first time I saw it. ;) Also, check out the folder its in if your in the mood for some funny stuff.......

[nbk2000]

FA shotgun looks fun. And he blew down the target with the cloud of shot. :)

[Anthony]

Question:

The guy loads the second magazine (after the drum), pulls the bolt and squeezes the trigger, the gun fires once then twice, but on the second shot there is a large flash at the ejection port. What's caused that? It doesn't occur on any other shot.

Cool toy though :)

[Jacks Complete]

Excellent video!

Anyone know what the gun is? It is clear it has a bit to help support the weight of the magazine, which otherwise often causes issues - it looks like some kind of rail that the mag slides up before locking in place - and I've not seen a design like that before.

[THAT Dude]

It look like a Franchi SPAS 15(from Italy)or USAS-12 (from South Korea),but the mags attach differently(maby it's a prototype?).

This link will show you the above menchened guns.
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh06-e.htm

O and 12 ga. = .72 cal. so good luck modifing those links.

[savages_viper]

the russians have developed the sagia 12 shotgun intoa full auto version theres a video of it on the internet somewhere with 2 shotguns fireing buckshot and they acualy move a van they were shooting at a foot or 2

[Begste]

There *is* a full auto conversion for the autoloading shotguns. But guess what, the rate of fire is like 400-450rpm. You can pull the trigger that fast. I saw in another post that someone had the "Gephart productions" plans. One of the plans they sold was the belt fed shotgun. But, It feeds from a CLOTH belt. If GP didnt use the same design, there *was* a belt fed shotgun used in South africa. It was jeep mounted Browning A5. But would it be worth a jam for a measly 400rpm rate of fire?

[Third_Rail]

I recently purchased a kit for making a crank-operated gatling gun in .45-70.

I'll be ditching the barrels, among other things, but using the crank assembly as is.

The plan is to buy 6 Mossberg 500a barrels, each 24" long, enlarge certain parts of the unbuilt feeding mechanism, and see if I can make a working 12ga gatling gun.


Boy would that be fun...

[festergrump]

Third Rail,

Wow! That WOULD be a fun toy to play with! Where'd you find it, if you don't mind? Any chance you could attach some pics of the kit and also maybe the schematics or assembly info (assuming the kit came with some instruction)? I'd be really interested to have a peek...

I'll be ditching the barrels, among other things, but using the crank assembly as is.
Ever considered ditching the crank handle, too, and hooking it up to a starter motor and a 12 volt car battery or similar? This could be VERY nice to play with, indeed! :)

[Third_Rail]

festergrump,

My camera is currently AWOL, but when I replace it I will gladly take pictures.

Ever considered ditching the crank handle, too, and hooking it up to a starter motor and a 12 volt car battery or similar? This could be VERY nice to play with, indeed!

Quite, but that would be illegal. I think I'll just have to dream about that when I'm done with the work itself.


These (http://www.gatlingguns.net/) fellows used to sell the kit in .45-70, or so I'm told by the person I bought the kit from "used" but never opened.

[Tribal]

I got an idea about the gatling you wish to build, I think it would be a destruction device, i've never heard anyone would have ever built anything like that, but if that can be done, it could only be mounted on a vehicle or on a heavy mount tripod...

Keep that in mind - make everything as strong as possible (that's a meatmaker after all)

12g in full auto - WOW!!! Don't forget about cooling, It's 12g after all...

I'll be hoping to hear and see of your masterpiece.

Good luck!!!

[Third_Rail]

It's hand-cranked, so not full-auto.


It's not a DD, according to this ATF letter I have.


Time will tell on how it turns out, I've worked on it very little thus far.

[Tribal]

Good luck, Be sure, you post it, when you have built it, i really hope you succeed! ;)

[megolodon180]

If you were law enforcement (yea, right) or knew some one in law enforcment then you could get the Auto Assault 12 (http://midamericarecreation.com/shotgun_pages/shotgun1_new.htm) (AA12). It's a premade full auto 12 guage. The only real "problem" with it is that it is open bolt and as such is a little less accurate. But, hey shotguns aren't meant to be pinpoint accurate. Another (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=623) page with more in formation on the AA12. And one (http://defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741) more.

[megolodon180]

If you were law enforcement (yea, right) or knew some one in law enforcment then you could get the Auto Assault 12 (http://midamericarecreation.com/shotgun_pages/shotgun1_new.htm) (AA12). It's a premade full auto 12 guage. The only real "problem" with it is that it is open bolt and as such is a little less accurate. But, hey shotguns aren't meant to be pinpoint accurate. Another (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=623) page with more in formation on the AA12. And one (http://defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741) more.

[BeerWolf]

At a gun show last year I saw someone who was making ammo for an obsolete shotgun by cutting .50 BMG at the neck, and soldering on a rim.

I think you might be able to make your belt fed shotgun by cutting the .50 bmg brass, loading the same as a brass shotshell and using the spotting rifle push thru links.

My $.02 YMMV.
-BW

[BeerWolf]

Here is a thread by some gents who convert .50bmg shells into what they call "12Ga From Hell".
http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=4e214c1cbf087f7e72c5777c478e09 7d&topic=79991.0

They turn down the rim, and thread on a 12 ga rim. I would suggest leaving the rim as stock .50bmg for your project.
-BW

[teshilo]

Conversion 0/50 machinegun shells to 12 ga shotgun used by V-C in Vietnam
More nice idea as create 12 ga portable recoiless machinegun (anti-crowd weapon) .As can compensate recoil?Use hydravlic compensators or old principle used in recoiless gun ...

[sparkchaser]

I already tried to file down the sear on a Saiga (actually the safety when the lever is in a particular position) just for grins and giggles, and it does result in a single shot configuration due to the hammer riding the bolt.

Looking at the bolt catch, though, it looks as though a full auto sear would be easy to make using the stock parts in a slightly different configuration. Maybe some extra sheet steel and a bit of silver solder/welding?

[5_seven]

I'm new here, but to me, it seems that everyone has this obsession with the 12 gauge shells. A smaller guage would seem much more practical in this case because:

a) shotguns spray a lot of lead, so if it's fully automatic, it doesn't really need to be a large gauge

b) the cost would be lower, and since it's a fully automatic weapon, that's a good thing

And

c) less wear and tear on the weapon

[Cobalt.45]

I'm new here, but to me, it seems that everyone has this obsession with the 12 gauge shells. A smaller gauge would seem much more practical in this case because

Damn, and I was thinking if you were going to the trouble of doing an auto shotgun, why not go with a 10 Ga.?

I'd bet that the 12 would hold an edge over the other gauges in ammo cost, though.

[BeerWolf]

If you're building it to take a stock shell, then 12 gauge is by far the cheapest in my neck of the woods.

If you're building it from some existing shell, than you're stuck with very few pellets if you go with the .30 caliber shell casings. Looks to me like anything larger than .50BMG would make for a very cumbersome feed system.

I don't see any point to a FA Sagia, other than fun. 5-8 shot magazine is gone in a short burst or two.

A drum, beltfed, or perhaps a hopper feed similar to Japanese LMG's from WW2 seem like the way to go for me.

Shotguns are too short ranged a weapon for a heavy fixed weapons mount.
I'm seeing a "super LMG" for close range forest or urban work.