Arming The Masses

[3287]

As many here likely know, in World War II the United States produced a very crude single-shot pistol, the Liberator, in huge numbers to drop behind enemy lines to arm the subjects of Nazi occupation and give them a fighting chance.

The Israelis armed their people with machine guns manufactured with near-primitive technologies, not even having access to full machine shops in many cases.

In the modern day, we've better technology and more available materials for such a task, making the effectiveness greater and the cost lower.

What sort of firearm design would allow for a concealable, reliable, effective and hopefully more ergonomic modern Liberator? Consider that the national military probably would not do something like this again, and so it would have to be a private endeavor.

[Joxer]

Would you trust your life to a cheaply made firearm?

There are any number of inexpensive and more effective firearms than a cheap POS "liberator" type pistol. If you want to have hand-out weapons, SKS's and Mosin Nagants, Mausers, etc. are inexpensive and more effective.

We dont need to arm the masses. The masses are alread armed.
We need people that will fight with the arms they already have.

[3287]

Many places around the U.S. are disarmed. California, large cities across the span, the entire northeast.

In particular I'm considering a handgun-style armament, since that would be most useful in a personal-defense context. I'm, unfortunately, too skeptical to believe that anything better can be hoped for. People won't want to fight a war.

To answer your question, I'd trust my life to a cheap handgun when facing someone armed before I'd trust my life to my bare hands.

[rangegal]

I think a repeating air rifle similar to the ones used by napoleons troops would be a good "liberator" since they are not true firearms and therefore are not restricted like firearms are... at least in America, land of some of the free-est people left... for now. For another matter nobody will ever be able to control the ammo since it's just air and lead. What are they going to do? Put a tax on fishing weights and air compressors? Once you have a bullet mold and an air pump your all set.

http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm

Big bore air rifles can be pretty effective, especially since they have zero muzzle flash and a reduced report compared to firearms. Those old Austrian air rifles could put about 600-800 fps into a ~.40 cal bullet, not bad considering it runs on air, and it was invented 200 years ago.

Heres a reinvented version made by an Austrian bicycle maker during WW2 to fight then Nazi's.
http://www.beemans.net/images/RA5--Austrian-Partisan-Airg.jpg

Those San-Yang big bore hunting air rifles are pretty sick too, although quite expensive.
http://www.airgundepot.com/big-bore-article.html

And then theres www.fullyautomaticairgun.com, too bad thats only .22 cal. It gives you an idea what kind of things can be done with CO2 though.

Another thing to look to for inspiration would be the new propane powered paint ball gun by Tippman. Would a "gun" that runs on propane be considered a "firearm" or would it just be another "air gun". I think that's where the best idea's for a powerful freedom fighting gun will be found. BUT BACK OFF, it's my idea.

One way or another, I think non-firearm weapons would offer great possibilities for a "liberator". Of course, theres just no substitute for those of you that already own full auto assault rifles.

[festergrump]

People won't want to fight a war.

I'd have to agree with you on that statement. If I had to guess, less than 25% of the people who ARE armed would likely never use them in warfare against an oppressive government, regardless of whether they put "MOLONE LABE" in their sigline or not. :rolleyes:

Even Commyfornians are not totally disarmed yet, though, nor are those in the NE section of the USSA, yet. It's those who have a hard time getting them legally that have a better appreciation for them, I think.

In the event that people will fight and have no gun with which to do so, IMHO the best thing to arm them with would be slam-fire shotguns. The mass production capabilities are the best around since the weapon is so piss-poor simple to find parts for on the scrounge and to put together in reliable working order: Two lengths of steel tubing (which one slides into another freely), an endcap, a screw or nail as a firing pin, and whatever you can make a few pistol grips with. One man should be able to make several dozens a day, honestly.

Even old shotgun husks can be reloaded relatively easily if ammo even dries up (read: no longer allowed for civilians to possess). "Strike-anywhere" match head primers, BP, paper wadding, and use whatever you like for shot (blunderbuss style).

[3287]

Well, my asking serves two purposes:

One, in the event that whichever Marxist takes office in January decides to try to disarm people, I want to monkeywrench that fucker into an ulcer-driven early grave. I'd be happy to stand in a tyrant's way.

Two, I'm a firm believer in the philosophy that an armed society is a polite society. I think the only way to be free is to be well-armed - and I don't mean in the sense of the number of arms versus the number of people, but in terms of the proliferation of arms. I'd like to see, as author L. Neil Smith puts it, "every man, woman, and responsible child" armed in some way. If I can do my part in making it happen, I will truly feel like I contributed something of worth to society.

[Joxer]

Many places around the U.S. are disarmed. California, large cities across the span, the entire northeast.

They aren't disarmed. Not yet, anyway.

You can search out Lutys' improvised weapons and improvised ammo. It's here somewhere, because I downloaded it. Check the rapidshare links thread.

There are plans for the Caselman Air machine gun here too. IIRC it uses .32 bullets.
It would be a very ambitious project though.

I look at it this way. Time is money. I'd personally rather buy a weapon than build one.
But having this info available is a Good Thing.

If I had to guess, less than 25% of the people who ARE armed would likely never use them in warfare against an oppressive government,

???

I assume you mean < 25% would use them. OK, that is still a very large number.
I'd be thrilled if 10% showed up. In my opinion, even 1% could get the job done.

[3287]

Revolution is a messy thing, and rarely pleasing in its outcome. I am more concerned with improving society by helping good old Joe the Plumber, since he seems to be the blue-collar star-of-the-moment, protect himself when the law would have had him murdered.

[festergrump]

Yeah, Joxer, that's what I meant. I also believe you that 1% could do the job with good communication (within and without those laying life down for liberty). In fact, a truthful form of media to the people is probably every bit as important as weapons in such a war. A civilian peoples who think YOU are the "bad guy" for resisting the government will always opt for your sellout, and freedom can never win. But that's a point all it's own. 10% armed would be much better than 1%, and everyone I see online with MOLON LABE in their sigline... even better than that. I think I will NOT count on those people, however, judging by their many liberal idealisms and thoughts put to posts on forums elsewhere.

"An armed society is a polite society". I've held that same opinion for many, many years now. :) The thing is, it has to be common knowledge that the society is well armed for this to work as well as it could, as in legally armed with a majority (or unknown percentage) that be so armed always. What you seem to be talking about is a different matter altogether, what with the Liberator pistol's origin and "standing in a tyrant's way" mentioned.

I offered the idea of the slam-fire shotgun because it meets the criteria presented in the OP. The same would pretty much apply for just about any zipgun type contraption you could think of. Build the weapon around whatever ammo you might have on hand, or alternatively, whatever you might take off the end recipient of such a weapon after he/she has been rendered "safe". (dead).

Several copies of Zips, Pipes, and Pens are floating about the internet (and the FTP, IIRC). There's a pretty good source of ideas, though you'll have to improvise just a bit. There are no plans in the book that I remember. But... you'll only need to use what weapon you make once to acquire a better weapon and ammo, right? The choice of targets is probably more important than most factors of the original weapon itself.

Look to prison as a good idea of how just people who are so "strictly forbidden" to have weapons make or obtain them, yet have them they do. Prison is the most "safe" (:rolleyes:) society you'll ever see with absolute and total "control" over what the population is allowed or disallowed. Yet every prison is literally riddled with firearms and other weapons. That's all the proof anyone should need that making such things "illegal" does absolutely nothing to those that want or need them, for protection or otherwise, though the antis continue with their insane ideas that banning something makes it vanish from the world forever.

I rest fairly well at night knowing that no matter what they do to us we will be able to counteract with some ingenuity and guts. It's the latter many cannot seem to find no matter how hard they look these days...

On somewhat of an aside, preventative medicine would be in order here at this point, anyway. Buy what you can while you can and continue to form ideas about what to do when you can't. BP revolvers ship right to your door in the USSA (as of now) and there's no restriction on them whatsoever within the fedgov regulations. (local regs may differ legally, but having them shipped isn't a problem). Same with any BP gun, inline rifle, rock-lock, percussion lock, etc.

Buy reloading supplies in abundance (ships to your door in the US) and brass or hulls, various chems and powders, etc. He who is prepared is better off than he who hasn't even given the slightest thought towards a future without (which is pretty much 99% of the sheeple, I'm afraid).

[3287]

I'm certain that they are restricted in my locale.

That's another part of my curiosity. I can acquire rifles and shotguns, but as it stands, I can not acquire handguns.

[Alexires]

Just remember that you guys aren't the only ones in this mess. There are other countries out there in the world, and a lot of the "civilised" ones are not armed. So don't just reject an idea because you could buy something better: Many of us can't do that.

[-=HeX=-]

Ah... I have an idea for a weapon that is one shot, mass produced. Get some steel tubing, a projectile to fit, an igniter, strong Epoxy, wires, and Epoxy resin sticks. Also some propellant of choice and wadding. Insert igniter into one end of pipe 1" in at least and seal it in completely with the Epoxy. The seal should be at least 3/4" deep.

Wire it up to a battery and a switch and mold Epoxy all around this to make the guns frame and handle. Have the trigger switch positioned like a firearm trigger. Allow Epoxy to cure and put in propellant, wadding and projectile like with muzzle loader.

When trigger is pulled, the igniter ignites the propellant which does its job..It can also easily be made in a multi barrel config for multiple shots.

This is cheap and easy to mass produce.

[Killy]

Ah... I have an idea for a weapon that is one shot, mass produced. Get some steel tubing, a projectile to fit, an igniter, strong Epoxy, wires, and Epoxy resin sticks. Also some propellant of choice and wadding. Insert igniter into one end of pipe 1" in at least and seal it in completely with the Epoxy. The seal should be at least 3/4" deep.

Wire it up to a battery and a switch and mold Epoxy all around this to make the guns frame and handle. Have the trigger switch positioned like a firearm trigger. Allow Epoxy to cure and put in propellant, wadding and projectile like with muzzle loader.

When trigger is pulled, the igniter ignites the propellant which does its job..It can also easily be made in a multi barrel config for multiple shots.

This is cheap and easy to mass produce.

"Interesting" idea, did you made it and test it ?
I highly doubt anybody would produce and carry, or even use such electrical thing.
Would it look something like this ?
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/9672/fluchtgewehrie5.th.jpg (http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fluchtgewehrie5.jpg)http://img234.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Why "arming the masses" (the term "masses" reminds me on marxist pamphlets) would be neccesity to any goverment, when mostly they are afraid of their own armed people, not their outer enemy ?

Today, metalworking industry in any country is so developed that some factories could easily produce cheap and simple SMGs in great numbers in small time, to arm their "masses".

[crazywhiteguy]

With the technology we have today, I think the best thing would be to make a simple long recoil action semi-auto pistol with a 4 inch barrel. Most of the weapon is made by simply stamping out the internals from 1/8 or 3/16 plate, cutting the lower receiver from 1/4 inch plate and the upper receiver from a single seamless tube. The only relatively difficult part is the bolt that can be made by a single tool on a lathe. Nothing on the weapon is too complex to be stamped out by the thousand

This can all be done with a milling machine In quick processes and very little cost for materials. This is basically how the Sten was made. The version I am imagining is a longer recoil that will allow for a very small gun width because you don't have as much issue with ejecting spent cartridges. A fair sized shop could make these without any trouble at all. They would be cheap and could use the cheapest available ammunition.

A crate of these could be handed out to resistance groups that are fighting your enemy. A crate of cheap ammo would also be handed out with the guns. 60 rounds per weapon is enough to do anything they hope to accomplish even with spray and pray tactics.

[3287]

I don't know if anyone goofy enough to "spray and pray" should even be allowed to touch a gun... especially when the rising cost and declining availability of ammunition is considered. "Gun banners" have wizened up a lot over the past fifteen years, only the stupid ones worry about banning (easy-to-make) guns. Now they're going after (comparatively more difficult-to-make) ammunition.

[crazywhiteguy]

By saying 'Spray and pray' I didn't mean shooting without looking or anything of the sort. Its just simple way of saying that the people your giving the guns to wont be trained in anything more combat practical than high school physical education teachers. If you give someone a gun like the liberator or something similar, all you'll be doing is delaying the trained armies from taking the zones that your supplying. You cant expect 200 people with the liberator pistol to hold off a decently equipped army for more than a minimum amount of time. Dropping cheap guns to resistance fighters just seems like a effective way to waste the resources of your enemies.

An example of this is the polish ghettos. The Jews didn't have many troops at some points and were quite an annoyance to the Germans. Giving supplies to the resistance fighters will just take your enemy's reasources and troops away from fighting you. Everyone on this forum can see the effectiveness of guerrilla warfare.

[forgot to think about ammo. If the government were the one making the ammo, the bulk at which the ammo would be made would put the costs at next to nothing. If arming a resistance movement were a private endeavour, one would simply need to purchase in a quantity enough to put the unit cost very low. It would be as easy as calling a ammo manufacturer and asking for a production run of however many crates of ammo. They would be willing to seeing as your order would be in the area of say 200,000 - 300,000 rounds of ammunition (60rnds./arm, 200 arms to a crate) and you would want to supply at least 5000 resistance fighters. Not to mention self defence weapons for the families and transportation safety and whatnot.) But my estimate only applies to a large war type senario without any sort of obvious complications.]

[Cobalt.45]

Dropping cheap guns to resistance fighters just seems like a effective way to waste the resources of your enemies.I see this as a valid tactic and is the exact role of such a weapon, IMO.

60 rounds per gun is a generous supply, considering the intended use. I believe the Liberator came w/something like 10 rounds.

Might not be spraying, but I know I'd be praying- in the case of the FP-45 you have a gun that has accuracy measured in feet, no rifling, a ram-rod to eject the cases and a single-shot to boot...:(

[crazywhiteguy]

I don't see 60 rounds as generous. If you look at a normal firefight involving the Kalashnikov rifle, 1 of 10 rounds finds a target. Given the lack of accuracy as well you must allow for them to have 10 - 20 rounds per kill. It might make a difference if you knew the enviroment. In the polish ghettos, the maximum distance they ever shot at was about 20 meters. most firefights happened between supply trucks and the houses surrounding (5m max.)

I see this as a valid tactic and is the exact role of such a weapon, IMO.
Great minds think alike. Stupidity is also found ed majoritum. Lets hope the first genertic proverb is true ;)

[festergrump]

The point is missed...

The idea of the Liberator pistol was not to arm a bunch of soldiers for a battlefield scenario. It was to give citizens something concealable to use against their occupiers long after things had cooled down and the occupying army had grown complacent with the ritual checking of proper papers, etc. It was to bring out of concealment at the right time to catch a soldier unaware, to kill him at very close range, and to acquire the better weapons that he had on his person. No more.

It was actually a very glorified zipgun. Ten rounds were more than ample for this role, I think. Three would have been enough with hopefully two to spare under the right circumstances.

The jews allegedly used even cruder implemented weapons to take REAL weapons off the German and Polish soldiers in Warsaw. I believe that was the original intent of the Liberator pistol, and for that it's manufacture was superb, at least compared to what a ragtag bunch who has no funding or machineshops working "legally" for any government could manage for another country's hopeless peoples.

That said, three rounds for a zipgun or slam-fire shotty sounds mighty impressive for such a bunch of hopeful patriots, especially if they may or may not ever choose to use them...

[crazywhiteguy]

I might have thought too far into it. As much as the machine pistol would be more effective, it would also be cumbersome to carry in any concealed way and still be ready to use at a moment's notice. I had another idea today, Have a sliding block with cylinders for ammo cut into it. On the far right on the back would be a set of teeth. A clicker would pull the 'magazine' up one notch and then drop the firing pin on the primer. This would give you a 2 -4 shot double action pistol. Im going to draw out a basic deign in a moment, please bear with me.

[486]

I had an idea for a improvised weapon, to use for the "take a enemy's weapon/ammo" idea.
"Red" pressure rating copper pipe fits a AA battery pretty well, just bore out a piece of iron pipe, to 5/8", to fit the copper pipe inside [for extra strength] then epoxy it inside, like they do with .22 LR barrel liners. There's the barrel, and projectile, as a breech cap, you could use an iron pipe cap, and I have no idea if homemade black powder will burn fast enough to propel the battery, and use what ever igniter is most easily made, maybe a putting a cigarette [that you were smoking when you walked up] into a flash hole.

If you want to have hand-out weapons, SKS's and Mosin Nagants, Mausers, etc. are inexpensive and more effective.

Mausers and SKSs are pretty expensive lately, both around $200-250, if you can find AK parts kits [with the barrels [importing the barrels was recently outlawed]] they are usually less than $200, then you have $25 for a receiver flat, and $10 each for magazines, you just need to fold the flat, and weld the rails on, you don't need to harden it, it'll just not last as long, but by the time it wears out you'll have picked up someone else's gun.

[festergrump]

...you just need to fold the flat, and weld the rails on, you don't need to harden it, it'll just not last as long, but by the time it wears out you'll have picked up someone else's gun.

Bending the flat and welding the lower rails in is the hardest part of the job, actually, and if you can do those steps correctly... why not harden the hammer pin holes, trigger pin holes, and ejector nub while you're at it? It takes less than five minutes. MAAP gas torches cost ~$13 (with an extra bottle) in most places, but you can do it without that, also.

I've seen cases where someone forgot to harden the ejector and it began to peen badly after two shots. It could essentially lock up a bolt trying to pass over it and take the gun out of the fight.

[-=HeX=-]

Killy: I am currently building that firearm, it is the prototype for a two shot self destructing gun which has a frame made from the castable plaster incendiary material. I am trying to build an entirely 'Clean' firearm which can be destroyed completely after use.

Over here guns are very hard to obtain legally, so the kalashnikov parts kit is out of the question. Slam bang firearms are an option, but then you have to obtain ammo. Ammo can be obtained from wherever people are shooting, only last night I found 2 of the 9mm rounds and a shotgun cartridge. Maybe iHME has an idea for the 'Battery gun'.

[iHME]

Well, this contraption is rather k3wLish, so I would have not posted this unless HeX would have not asked.

The idea is simple.

We have a 16mm(yes you read right) muzzle loader with a simple trigger mechanism.
A 1-3mm flash hole is drilled and a short length of fuze is put trough, a modified modified fireplace lighter is used as the trigger to ignite the fuze and thus the propellant.
For me this thing is more a toy, the flash hole in mine is too big (2,5mm, did not have a smaller bit at hand) so I lose power thanks for it.
I also don't have proper propellant for it.

But with all it's flaws. It is damn simple to make.
The breach is epoxyed and bolted in place.
It is made available tubing and bolts. +It should be US legal to make if one wanted.
The AA battrey is there just fore the scale, I did not load it with those :)

The photos give some idea about the construction.
The archive contains one more pic, a video and some teaser pictures of my current project.

The archive. (http://rapidshare.com/files/158456401/cannon.7z)

[3287]

So now that Comrade Obama is going to jam through a permanent "assault weapon" ban in a few months...

Suddenly this seems like a much more pertinent field of study.

Alright, the Luty design seems sufficient for emergency production - it's like the Liberator's better, meaner cousin. But what about all of the guns that are suddenly going to be verboten for us poor old plebes? What does it take, assuming moderate machining skills and a multimachine-style set of tools, to produce bolt, semi- and fully-automatic rifles?

Most of the gunsmithing courses I've checked out are about accurizing, adjusting or modifying firearms, I don't think I've ever seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun."

[Killy]

Don't think that ever gun "industry" will be banned in USA, like in some other countries, it's just too much money in that business,
so gun owners or wannabe owners don't need to be afraid they'll have to build something.
Even if they ban assault weapons, there are plenty of semi-autos that can be easily converted.


Quote 3287:
"What does it take, assuming moderate machining skills and a multimachine-style set of tools, to produce bolt, semi- and fully-automatic rifles?
Most of the gunsmithing courses I've checked out are about accurizing, adjusting or modifying firearms, I don't think I've ever seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun."

What's your point here, what do you want to say,
or even better, what do you want that we say ?

You have pretty "wide" questions,
I hope you're not tossing a bone at us.

[Cobalt.45]

Don't think that ever gun "industry" will be banned in USA, like in some other countries, it's just too much money in that business...Where the money is, is the gun lobby- NRA.

...I don't think I've ever seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun."There are members here that can and do just that- with the help of available "parts kits" that supply various components.

Precise hole placement/drilling and sheet metal bending is what's mainly needed to build them. With just a little searching (google "ak47 gun kit", for instance:rolleyes:), you will find sites that cater to scratch-building "stamped-steel"-receiver weapons.

Recently, I read that some necessary parts have been outlawed. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[3287]

I'll research it and see what I can pull up. I have seen the AK sites, and while I'm not a super-fan of the AK, it's better than fighting with a stick and a rock. Just ask the Jihadis.

Even if they ban assault weapons, there are plenty of semi-autos that can be easily converted.

You do know that "assault weapons" are semi-automatic, right?

[-=HeX=-]

Ok, I drew a pic of my design in paint, albeit only a rough 'sketch'. It is in pieces at the moment, awaiting a camera so I can photo its assembly. A PA. Luty gun would be nice, but a proper gun nicer still. I envision a horde of rioters used as a convenient 'diversion' for a staged assault on an (empty) police station, with the rioters armed with the homemade weapons. Then the 'Resistance' get proper weapons. However, why 'guns' anyway, why not 'hedgehog' weapons, grenades, CW, optical isotropic radiators, blinging weapons, 'hot knives', boom sticks, and other 'unusual' weapons which can be effective too?

[Killy]

I envision a horde of rioters used as a convenient 'diversion' for a staged assault on an (empty) police station, with the rioters armed with the homemade weapons. Then the 'Resistance' get proper weapons. However, why 'guns' anyway, why not 'hedgehog' weapons, grenades, CW, optical isotropic radiators, blinging weapons, 'hot knives', boom sticks, and other 'unusual' weapons which can be effective too?

Pretty Hollywood style, don't you think ?

Although we need visionary man, intellectual masturbations won't help anyone, because scenario like that is unlikely to happen, however much you wish for it.

Was that picture necessary? Kid could sketch that.

I would understand if you posted a picture with technical information like schematic and sizes of components.

I know I sound a bit offensive, but I said it before, too much material here is discussed on theoretical base, everybody has some "brilliant" idea
(which he hasn't and wouldn't build, of course) with little true practical meaning, or to show-off of that.

@3287

Jihadis ?
The AK is probably used in most of the countries worldwide.
Are you try to imply that it's only weapon of so called terrorists or members of fictional Al Quasi organisation (interestingly enough, freedom fighters are always called terrorists by invading country) ?

[3287]

Sure, lots of countries use it.

Just not ones with the money to buy something better.

Ok, I drew a pic of my design in paint, albeit only a rough 'sketch'. It is in pieces at the moment, awaiting a camera so I can photo its assembly. A PA. Luty gun would be nice, but a proper gun nicer still. I envision a horde of rioters used as a convenient 'diversion' for a staged assault on an (empty) police station, with the rioters armed with the homemade weapons. Then the 'Resistance' get proper weapons. However, why 'guns' anyway, why not 'hedgehog' weapons, grenades, CW, optical isotropic radiators, blinging weapons, 'hot knives', boom sticks, and other 'unusual' weapons which can be effective too?

Well, two reasons that I can see.

One, guns are a staple. Wars are won and lost on the backs of infantrymen. The other weapons are great, but you've got nothing if you have no guns.

Two, guns are much easier than explosives or experimental high-tech weaponry. There's little uncertainty, and they require no difficult-to-obtain chemicals or devices. In their simplest form, they're just a tube to direct the bullet and a hammer to activate the cartridge.

[jlwilliams]

I'm weighing in a bit late here. I want to respond to the op with my thoughts on the type and manufacture of a hypothetical modern day Liberator pistol.

I think that the single shot reloadable handgun is still viable, just not quite the same as the Liberator. First, the liberator had problems in that it was percieved as too cheap to be counted on. In reality they worked, but those few resistance fighters who got them were said to be too sceptical of them to actually use them in action. Using moderm manufacturing, a break action or falling block handgun that feels like something could be more readily accepted. Think of the Sheridan Knockabout 22 single shot at one end and the Thompson Contender (one of my favorite handguns ) at the other end of the spectrum and you could build a gun in the middle.

Next perameter I would add is either provision for a silencer or just built in to the design. Think of the British designed Welrod pistols of WWII. Reason being that as others have pointed out, most folks don't want to fight. Non trained and under trained fighters are the people we are talking about arming here. Anything that adds a degree of confidence is key. The feeling that 'all hell will break loose when I pull this trigger' scares many people out of pulling that trigger. Increase the likelyhood of getting away with it and the would be/ may be fighter can focus on doing the deed.

I think the idea of a full auto gun is not as practical. You could build Macs or Stens, but they are a bit more gun than most people can shoot well. A manualy operated firearm is very practical. There is a damn good reason my father started me shooting with a single shot 22. First off, I was seven years old. More over, that's just the best way to start a marksman off. As an aside, the fact that there are many many people in this country that were similarly taught as children makes a real impediment to any sort of invasion of my country. Just don't try it.

Lastly, I would add a provision for adding a shoulder stock or make the gun adaptable being converted to a rifle. Shoulder arms are easier to shoot well than pistols. A suppressed pistol caliber or even 22 rifle/pistol platform would be readily accepted and infinitely practical.

On a historical note, most of the Liberator pistols were eventualy destroyed, not delivered to resistance movements. The French government in exile objected to flooding their country with zip guns that were un numbered smoothbores that would be all over the underworld after the war. Likewise other countries realized that the war would end and didn't want them distributed to be a lethal nuisance to their police for years to come. This comes from the book "OSS Weapons" by Brunner.

[Wallybanger]

The Sten Gun was made from a piece of pipe and was produced in basements and small workshops all across Europe during WWII. you could build one with a welder (which you can make from 2 microwave transformers), a hack saw, a hand drill and a set of files.

[Killy]

The Sten Gun was made from a piece of pipe and was produced in basements and small workshops all across Europe during WWII. you could build one with a welder (which you can make from 2 microwave transformers), a hack saw, a hand drill and a set of files.

Oh, thank you very much for giving us this precious informations !

Microwave welder ???

[iHME]

Building a simple stick welder from a few micro waveoven transformers, it has been done and there are numerous plans on the net.

But a sten with a crude stick welder, files, drill and bitts?
Maybe a sten clone in some low pressure cartidge like .25acp or .32.
But a full fledged sten in 9mm would be hard to build.
But if you can make one even a non-firing replica, please do!

Add a angle and bench grinder to the mix and you could replicate some of the milling operations. Making the bolt would be the hardest part.
And if I have figured it out correctly. There could be a way how someone could make a sten style bolt with a drill press, angle grinder and files.

[486]

Recently, I read that some necessary parts have been outlawed. Can anyone shed any light on this?

The barrels were recently banned from importation, because they supposedly had no "sporting purpose". "Sporting purpose" is bullshit, the second amendment was given so citizens could regain freedom, if the need arises. Hunting, clay pigeons, etc. have nothing at all to do with the 2nd amendment... :(

[Killy]

People are fast on their tongue (or fingers typing),
doing something out of "pipe, set of files, drill and hacksaw (all across Europe?!?)" sounds laughably easy, but doing it, one would see that it's enormous effort and time,
and most people don't have the time and will, even if they could depend on that what they are building.

I even think if you put that time and will in conventional jobs for gaining money, and beside that you search for (not legal) firearms, you would end up better than building it on your own.

[billo]

Arming the masses takes time, this is done by real good preparation and SUPPLY. Maybe all the members don't know but a city by name of Karachi in Pakistan is like a ticking BOMB. THIS is where ARMING the MASSES has happened. I have read it somewhere that whole nights sometime are spent listening to automatic shooting on roads. There is "MAY 12 Karachi" incidents over there youtube will surely give a good viewpoint on it.

Illegal Ak-47 sells for about $500 and one mag for $30 and 1000 bullets for $250. And masses have been ARMED to teeth. a political party named MQM "Mutahida Quomi Movement" I think it is called. It was proclaimed as a Terrorist Organization by Canadian Supreme Court when MQM goons tried to run a Toronto and Vancouver units, found excessively involved in money laundering.

If anyone interested can watch news about karachi because within a month the city is said to erupt into a HUGE ball of FIRE.

Arming masses means "weapons which are tested and have readily available ammunition be made available to people who can fight one to one fights for survival"
most common weapons are Tula Tokarev 30 Cal. Chinese make 9mms. People have even been rumoured to have taken loans from banks to buy weapons on license. The Governor of that Province "Sindh" is someone who was WANTED in terrorism cases not one or two but 43 different cases. Pakistan has been at war since it got its independence and now is the HUB of all sorts of wars. Be it international, National, city wise or tribal or even street wise.

This is where arming the masses has been carried out on GRAND scale.

[Corona]

within a month the city is said to erupt into a HUGE ball of FIRE.



Whaaat??? I live here in Karachi, you know.... :rolleyes:

A bit of a drama-queen post. Please restrain yourself from airing your views on local politics. This is not the place for that.

Learn the difference between 9mm and 7.62mm (30 cal). They are not the same as you imply.

Guns are cheap and universally available (thank God). I have a Tokarev myself.... takes 7.62 necked bullets. It's a known car-stopper, cop killer, with the power of a 44 magnum... excellent penetration. See video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfoDH7s-Hnc

Cheap, tough, and easy to maintain. The best serious weapon for 'arming the masses' I say.

And no, I didn't have to take out a loan from the bank.:p Chinese TTs (Tokarevs) only cost Rs.12,000 ($150)... a local made TT would've only cost me $50 at the most (but since my weapon is legal, why act cheap?). And magazines and laser mounts and accessories of all sorts are openly available without a license (for any sort of weapon). A Tokarev magazine costs less than $4 (US).

I believe arming the masses is a good thing. Keeps the riffraff in check. Because the riffraff will always be armed no matter what laws you put in place.