Model Rocket Missile

[HypersonicGamer]

Hey fella's, I am going to construct a rocket launcher out of some PVC tube and I plan on launching model rockets that are rigged to explode on contact. I have partially designed the PVC tube, but I think that will be the easier part to construct than the actual payload and the missile itself. I have drawn up an image of what I think might work - I know you folks here are experts at this kind of stuff, so I just want a little bit of advice on what to improve on. If I can master the missile, I'll finish up the tube and I'll try it and video tape it.

Regarding the drawing:

The tennis ball will have to fight in snugly with a rather large rocket, which might make the missile slower and bulkier and more inaccurate - attaching this tennis ball to a smaller rocket will need a lot of taping and it will look very ... unprofessional? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I mean, it will be like a big ball on the end of a small rocket, and fitting it in there is impossible. I was thinking of maybe hollowing out the default nose cone and putting in some touch explosive? Could you guys help me on which one to choose, or is there a totally different improved way of detonating the missile? I placed APAN in there because I thought the impact of the initial BP and Tennis ball explosion would cause it to ignite, which would ignite the primary high explosive PETN. I was hoping to shoot a pretty heavy duty missile (in terms of what it would do). Could you guys please help me on this? I was also thinkin' about placing a small C02 in the half-cut drilled in nose cone. I do not know if that would work though... Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thank you :D

<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/magic/cookaburro/rocket_ship.bmp" alt=" - " />

<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/magic/cookaburro/rocketship2.bmp" alt=" - " />

[zaibatsu]

I know we're being more restrained now, but I really do hope this topic is a joke. A tennis ball "bomb"? Please, go back to the cockbook. Touch explosive would mean that if you touch it it would explode. How do you propose to make/fill it? And let's get this straight, you go from a primer, to BP, to ANAP, to PETN? If you can make PETN I'm pretty sure you can make a more reliable primary. POGs? Goddamn...

Or did you just skim some posts, pick out some words and then throw them onto a drawing? If you intend to stay then at least learn.

AARGH, just noticed, PETN is a secondary, not a primary! I'm *extremely* tempted to lock this topic and ban you. But, maybe some of the REAL members can make something out of this.

[Arkangel]

Quite possibly the lamest post I've seen in a month, although there has been a BIT of competition in the Caltrop thread. In fact, this post is so crappy that I think you're someone taking the piss, trying to get people to discuss an idea like <a href="http://www.xinventions.com/main/pyro/model_rocketry.htm" target="_blank">this</a> as something original.

First thing to do is go <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=faq" target="_blank">here</a> and learn that lot.

Next do some research both here and on the rest of the web. Then, when you've got some credibility (gunna take a while now I'm afraid), come back with an idea that isn't as half baked and badly thought out as this one. I can't even understand what you're trying to describe. That's either because you haven't a clue either, or you're incapable of putting an idea across.

E minus, going to have to do a LOT better to stick around.

[Haggis]

If you plan on filling the tennis ball with a payload, the rocket will be too unbalanced and will not fly. To circumvent 'unprofessional' taping, use epoxy putty. Tennis ball 'bombs' will not work. I also do not think that the 'explosive train' will work at all. The D engine will not just sufficient lift. Oh, and the heat from the engine could detonate the AP in the APAN and later the APAN. At this point the PETN will detonate while the rocket is fizzling in the launch pad. People that play with PETN do not use 'tennis ball bombs' as the ignitor.

[Energy84]

And to help out with the criticism of the actual rocket design... A 'D' motor won't even get that ugly beast off the ground.
Now, assuming it ever did get off the ground, I wouldn't want to be within a half mile of that damn thing. It will cartwheel in the air due to the instable rocket design. The fins are too small and the CG/CP ratio is way off.
You haven't said how you intend on launching this thing either, but you'll probably need a fairly strong launch rail or some sort of tube setup. So don't even worry about accuracy right now.
APAN would be a poor choice of main charge because it will probably have to be sitting furthest towards the rear and will be suseptible(SP?) to the heat from the rocket engine.
I hope you realise that 'D' engines only burn for about a little less than a second anyways.
And how do you plan on using a goddamn tennis ball as a nosecone? For one thing, all the fuzz on it will be a major drag (literally) and for another, a goddamn tennis ball?!? Jesus christ man, get real!
Then there's your charges, well, I'm not even gonna go there. I think zaibatsu pretty much covered that anyways. Only thing left to mention is that APAN would be bottom on my list for a warhead. Just pack the damn thing full of PETN. Unless of course you have the holy grail of all explosives, double based smokeless powder!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Damn I hope this guy likes HED. I want the old, stricter rules back! :D C'mon NBK, we know you're bloodthirsty!

[blazter]

Wow. I sure got a good chuckle out of reading that post. With all the time that poor fool spent drawing those fanciful images he could've used it to actually learn something useful. I would like to second the motion for giving this one HED. Please at least delete this useless thread.

[Gargoylebrother]

Good Fucking God how stupid can you get. A fucking tennis ball bomb Please...I really really REALLY hope he tries something like this and fucking KILLS himself...well not rerally but at least takes off a limb or two. That way he will never thinks about doing anything like this again.

Come on NBK where are you when we need you the most. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Flake2m]

Adding an explosive payload to model rockets rockets isn't new. Using a "tennis ball bomb" to set off petn is a load of Bull Shit aswell.

If you want to design, build and use a rocket launched missile then: 1. Do some fucking research
2. Have some previous experience with this technology.
3. Learn to draw.

There are far more efficent ways to set off PETN and if you could make the stuff then you'd know. A 'D' engine not would have enough power to get your "rocket" into the air. So you would have to either: 1. cluster your "D" engines or 2. Design and build a rocket engine.

[HypersonicGamer]

Sorry for all the stupidness :( - I should have looked around the net for some plans on model rocket missiles, but I tried the search on this site but it would not yield anything of the sort so I thought I'd start a new project-thread on this subject (bad start...). Yeah - I fucked up bigtime, and as a newbie I have tarnished my reputation. Although battered down and threatened with NBK's excessive insulting comments :p (j/k), I hope you guys could still help me and point me in the right direction.

Flake: I can make PETN, but I was just unsure of how I would detonate the rocket...obviously it was not well done or planned out :(. Filling the whole thing with PETN - which booster could I use for this?

The tennis ball: Sorry...

Hmm...have any of the members here built something like this (well, not that THAT, but a missile)? If so, could you please tell me what you did and what you used?

Please, no HED! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[vulture]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">but I tried the search on this site but it would not yield anything of the sort so I thought I'd start a new project-thread </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">There is a huge thread about spin stabilized model rockets and also another thread about rockets.

While I can understand why you would use a tennisbal, I'd rather use a golfball, as these things have been designed to reduce drag.

[Anthony]

Come on lads, embrace the huggy-feeliness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

At least his attitude doesn't suck like too many newbies. He's just miss-guided, a lot like his rocket would be :D

Your main problem is trying to fly before you can walk. Your firing train is bizzare and if you thought a tennis ball "bomb" was an ideal component, then obviously you haven't done much playing with even basic pyro experiments. Using HE components at all, let alone PETN would be beyond your current grasp. Don't take that as an insult, it's constructive criticism. We all started somewhere, and it wasn't with PETN for any of us...

If you want to do this, look up some threads on "CO2 bombs" (cratermakers, COBs). Make some of these loaded with BP or flash. Then think about fuzing one with a shotshell primer and tapping a D motor to the back and firing it from a length of (unmaned...) PVC pipe. There should be some old threads covering this pretty much exactly. Then move up to a HE filler, *then* start thinking about scaling it up to something bigger.

These projects aren't as simple as cobbling together a variety of ideas you've seen on the net. Aside from being impractical, it's way to over ambitious and can only result in dissapointment and frustration. Start out with the basics. Even for COB sized rockets Estes motors aren't too good, for something the size you've drawn, you *will* need to make your own heavy duty rocket motors.

BTW, I think he might have meant the PETN was the primary explosive payload (i.e the base charge), still incorrect terminology though.

[Arkangel]

grumble grumble, thicko's grumble, fucking why should we bother grumble moan, half baked, grumble whinge, fucking shit idea, grumble how much help does he need for fuck's sake, mutter grumble moan.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH

I'm trying, I just think this project, the approach to it is so shit that it's easier to say "fuck off and come back when you've got half a clue". The concept, the drawings, the approach, the, the, the, the........fucking TENNIS BALL............. :rolleyes:

It's a serious question - just how far back in his education should we be expected to reach?

(sorry, I've got a cold, am knackered and in an especially grumpy mood)

<small>[ March 27, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</small>

[nbk2000]

He deserves a good vivisectioning. :)

But not by me...I only feed on healthy prey...not the weak and sickly. :p

[knowledgehungry]

Welcome back NBK.

[Ezekiel Kane]

I wouldn't particularly recommend using a "golf ball" or "tennis ball bomb." I really hope you try this. Either you'll destroy yourself or you'll have something to contribute, and either way I'll be satisfied.

Not to challenge your ruling, nbk2000, but are there perhaps any admins who DO feed on the weak and sickly? :rolleyes:

[HypersonicGamer]

Energy84 + Haggis - Thanks for the information.

Anthony - Thanks for the polite reply. I will build some C02 Rockets will D's on the end and a shotgun shell primer in the front (I'll initially test it with BP). After I do this though, I was still wondering about the rocket design.

Another thought that came into mind was building a new rocket from scratch, a 2" PVC tube (I'll try keeping the rockets very simple) to start off with. I could get the bottom end threaded and fit on an end cap and I could get some PVC that fits the diameter of a D engine correctly, and I could get the top ends threaded and epoxy on a total of 4 D engines on the main 2" PVC shaft (in a square formation). I could maybe load the main shaft with some Mid-Low sensitive explosive, but for my impact nose cone, I would need an explosive that would be impact-sensitive (back when I was using the term "primary" freely, I did mean for it to be used in the sense that it was a "primary" charge; the primary/base explosive in the missile). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

The launcher could be like the one on Xinventions, and the fins on the rocket base and near the tip (like an AIM 9 Sidewinder :) ) could be plastic, small, thin, and short (glued with epoxy). To rig all four of these D-engines would take two copper wire I am presuming, one ring of it all connecting the positives and then another ring connection all negative wires, and then the alligator clips would attach to them as normal. I see the main problems while building these is encountering weight/lift/drag/size problems the most, and then what type of explosive to use (probably an impact sensitive one...which one could be used?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Thanks for the help - I at least appreciate you guys responding and not locking/deleting the thread immediatly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

PS: Hey NBK, which parta' Kansas you in? I used to live in Hays when I was a child. :cool:

<small>[ March 27, 2003, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: HypersonicGamer ]</small>

[Ghostcustom 24]

HypersonicGamer,

You need to start at the very very beginning.

Before anything else use the link at the top of the page and read the EWF rules at least twice. Next you must learn how a model rocket works. I suggest a basic Estes Model Rocket booklet. After you have learned the forces acting on a rocket and what stability is and how it effects rockets, I would suggest you go out and buy some simple level 1 rockets and learn how they operate, maybe even try launching one. After that you can move on to more advanced things like how the motors work [realy advanced !! :D ] and maybe after more hours of intensive study you can try building a simple rocket (It's good to know how to make simple ones first before going on to complicated ones <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

Until then I suggest not posting becuase you have already upset more that a few people.

[Energy84]

Have you ever built a model rocket in your life??? I think you need to learn how to SUCCESSFULLY build and fly a rocket. It's fine and dandy that you want to learn, but remember, baby steps. Don't even attempt to put anything explosive in it until you can fly the damn things. Fins at the front of the rocket are trouble and actually decrease stability alot. The only reason that you see fins on the front of rockets are either for looks (ONLY if the overall design is very stable) or for guidance. Don't even bother trying to build a guidance system because at this point, YOU WILL fail.
So like Ghostboy said. Go buy an estes rocket and build that, learn to fly it, experiment with different engines and stuff. Then get their kit so that you can try building your own custom designs to see if they'll fly. The most important part about model rockets is getting the cp:cg (center of pressure:center of gravity) ratio right. You actually want it to be nose heavy (contrary to popular belief) to make it fly straight. Once you get this ratio correct, anything will fly straight. The biggest challenge is getting this ratio right while still keeping it lightweight...
In short, go buy a book. Then go buy a model kit. Fly it. You need experience.

[Aaron-V2.0]

And you do know that a tennis ball will fit perfectly in a 2.5" PVC pipe right? No way in hell will it fit in a 2". Exactely how much research did you do on this anyway?

[Flake2m]

Hypersonicgamer have you ever successfully synthesised PETN before?
I have had some experience with model rockets and I know for a fact that they are design to fly straight up. Not down, not sideways and unless the engine fucks up or the rocket isn't balanced they will fly in the direction they are pointed.

[TheBear]

If we could try to get back on topic here, and give this poor lad a chance:

What impacttrigger would be the safest to use?

I'd guess some kind of electrical switch, perhapps an electrolyte in a glasstube, which when broken completes the current and sets off an electric BC.

But if one would like the rocket to penetrate light armour and then detonate the payload, how would one construct the impacttrigger? It would be very different because then the nosecone has to be strong and not break upon impact which complicates the design of the impactstrigger.

[kingspaz]

fuck this huggy friendly shit!
i'd like to see some good ideas and info on rockets following the torrent of crap above.

[HypersonicGamer]

Flake: I haven't actually made PETN before, sorry if I was unclear in that I could. I have been following along with the PETN thread and I had saw on a couple of other sites like Flashbangboom a synthesis on PETN. Even though the synthesis guides one through the creation of PETN, I'm sure a newbie or someone who is not versed well in chemistry could NOT correctly synthesize PETN on their first time, right? I'll start with baby steps like you guys suggested, I have a bad habit of starting too high, and then to have my ideas crushed/picked apart like they have been done so here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

My father is a chemical engineer, and he keeps a plethora of various chemicals in our storage basement (I don't know why he keeps them there though, I haven't seen him touch them). Well, I was browsing through some stuff and in this small tight bottle there was some nitric acid (98%) and some other complex liquid compounds. He also has some sulfuric acid (98%) and a lot of acetone. I'm sure there is more, but from what I have searched for/seen, those are the only ones.

Energy + Ghostcustom, thanks for the tips, I'll be sure to start with the basics of the rockets.

A couple of days ago, I had bought an "Astrocam" model rocket which takes a photo during flight. I launched the rocket the following day, and it was the first time I have ever launched a model rocket. It was quite fun/amazing, since I haven't even seen anyone actually do it (this is what sparked my interest in the missile with the explosive payload). Indeed, I have very little experience with model rockets, from what I have only launched, it has gone straight through my 4-6 trials throughout the week. Next weekend, I think I'll buy some PVC and experiment with the dynamics and physics of the rockets, and then I'll launch it without a payload and hope it goes straight (I'll probably go through many trials before it even goes somewhat straight, heh). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Also - the fact that the rocket will have increased weight after the explosive payload might alter the way it operates when launched. (Hopefully, maybe I will at least get this theory correct?) :D

Aaron: A tennis ball glued on with epoxy on a small 2" PVC rocket would look very stupid, agreed, heh - but the drawing above that shows it fit in perfectly was designed to fit with a larger diameter PVC tube, which would be a lot heavier (I presume?) and it would make the rocket go nowhere or very slow if it went anywhere (not to mention all over the place like stated above).

Again, sorry for the tennis ball, I know the Anarchist Crapbook is frowned upon here - the last time I actually looked into it for informative information was a year ago, but I had remembered that tennis ball bombs were a fun impact popper that I had used a while ago.

Setting aside the physics and mechanical aspects of the rocket itself, I would like to discuss how an advanced rocket hobbyist would go about detonating this thing! :D Also, how one would place the engines and fins in a manner or construct it in a manner to improve the trajectory, stability and speed?

The Bear: Thanks for your friendly gestures, I appreciate it. An electrolyte in a glasstube is a new idea I haven't heard (literally) - it sounds like it would work, would you like to elaborate on it with us? Detonating light armour, haha - I didn't want to destroy any light targets but designing a rocket that did successfully penetrate and explode sounds fun and challenging (although right now we're stuck on the first step :) ).

Thanks again for the input. :cool:

[Skean Dhu]

first i'd like to add on to what energy84 was saying, you want it to be nose heavy and the fins at the back help keep it stable by increasing the drag on the tail end.
on spudtech.com there is a how-to on making 'rockets' designed for launch from -- you guessed it a potato launcher. i have been toying with the idea of modifying these with explosive warheads. I was thinking that if I used some AP in the rocket that it would explode upon contact with something hard(since it is so sensative(sp?) and all. obviously it would be sealed off to protect against flames and i would be cowerin.....I mean standing behind a protective barrier when the launch is preformed.

would somebody help to talk me in/out of doing this. would the AP detonate when it is accelerated from the blast, would the shockwave from the combustion set it off? i don't want to try this if it isn't going to be as 'safe' as humanly possible.

and just to save you the typing these aren't going to be used maliciously, for entertainment purposes only

[xyz]

I doubt that the impact with a hard surface will set your AP off. I have fired a CO2 cannister packed with AP out of an air cannon. It was aimed at a large, solid tree about 15m from the air cannon. The CO2 cannister just bounced off the tree without exploding (even though it would have been going at more than 75 metres a second).

[Ghostcustom 24]

My advice would be to scratch PETN and try to structure the model rocket after a LRPG (light rocket propelled grenade). Obviously you would need to do some research into the mechanics and explosives used in them and attempt to scale it down and apply it to a model rocket, which if I may remind you will be no easy feat.

Technically, it will not work in a 'model rocket' at all. You will surpass the defining characteristics of a 'model rocket' (as in weight, propellant weight ect.) before you ever put the explosives in. This would be classified as a ‘Large model rocket’ or ‘Amateur rocket’ (my money would be on the amateur rocket class no question). You will almost certainly need to make your own engine because you will need much more power than a cluster of D's or F's can give you and the burn time for those is incredibly short.

[Energy84]

I've been out of the hobby for a couple years now, so I don't really know much about the latest developments in engine technology, but I'd probably reccommend using at least a 'G' or higher class engine, which is about 8" long and 1.25" around. I've only actually seen one 'G' class (officially classified as 'high powered model rocket') launched and it was quite a hefty rocket. IIRC, it was 4" around and 2.5' long, with a camera in the nose and microphone w/transmitter to transmit and record the sounds of flight onto a laptop equipped with a receiver. I'd estimate that it flew about 750 feet high.
Now, using simple physics, if a projectile can reach say 1000' altitude, that means that at 45 degrees, it can reach 500' altitude 1000' downrange at apogee, and hit the ground at about 2000' downrange.
So I'd say that a 'G' class engine will be more than enough for a rocket with a 2" diameter and 2' long.
BUT, keep in mind that this rocket will have to be less than 3 pounds. These things are not built out of PVC pipe. They are built with thin cardboard bodies, lightweight plastic nosecones and balsa wood fins. Even the paint plays an important role in aerodynamics and even sometimes weight.
<img src="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/energy84/rocket%20stability.jpg" alt=" - " />
Since I'm sure that most of you don't have a wind tunnel to test stability, here are two tricks that I've always used.
The first is to build the whole damn rocket, load it up just like you were ready to launch (engine, parachute, wadding, payload (if any)) and balance it to find the CG. Next, tie a string around the CG (fasten it with a piece of tape so that it doesn't slide around) and swing it around your head. The rocket should 'fly' around you nose first. If it doesn't, that means that it's unstable. And if it does swing around nose first, then it is stable. Simple as that.
The other method, is to take a piece of cardboard and make a cross-sectional cutout of your rocket. All you want is a side view, made of cardboard, sort of like in the picture I made. Then with the cutout, balance it on your finger. The CG of the cutout will be the CP on the real thing. Then you just have to find the CG on the actual rocket and compare it to the CP. Remember, the CG is always in front of the CP in a stable design.
All this probably seems alot harder than it really is, but once you understand what's going on, it's really simple.

<small>[ April 03, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]</small>

[Ghostcustom 24]

I would like to second those stability methods and also recommend that you investigate into finding some nice model rocket software. I tried one version called <a href="http://www.apogeerockets.com/rocksim.asp" target="_blank">RockSim</a> , where you can actually build the rocket on your computer using parts from manufacturers or you can impute your own. It does wonderful calculations to find CP, CG, approximate altitude, and more.

&gt;&gt;Now if only someone could find out where we can this free as it is very expensive. They have it so you can download the FULL version somewhere, but I don't know how to look around on their server - SOMEONE PLEASE HELP HERE !!!!!

--Oh and also go out and get the "Handbook of Model Rocketry" by G. Harry Stine (Amazon.com)-- best book on basic rocket principles, you can probly find it at the library also.

[HypersonicGamer]

Thanks for all the great information - I'll play around with model rockets more in depth and I'll get the basics down before I impose a payload.

[xyz]

Rocksim costs, there is a good peice of freeware rocketry software called AEROLAB that I use, it can be downloaded <a href="http://www.rocketry.org/downloads/software/aerolab.zip" target="_blank">here</a> . It is 390Kb.

Use this to calculate your rocket's center of gravity (CG) and center of pressure (CP). If you adjust your rocket so that the CP is about 1.5 calibres behind the CG then the rocket will be stable. (1 calibre is the diameter of your rocket's main body)

If you are launching rockets from a tube, a combination rocket/recoilless launcher system is probably the best to use as a rocket will probably not accelerate fast enough to keep going in a straight line when it leaved the tube.

A recoilless laucher is basically where you use a low explosive propellant like BP to fire a projectile from a tube that has a partially closed back.

You will also probably need to use sabots on the rocket so that it fits the launching tube well. Or you could use a spin stabilised rocket with two nozzles so that it doesn't require fins.

<small>[ April 07, 2003, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[kingspaz]

dammit!
my previous post was meant to include this:
<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/kingspaz/impactdet.JPG" alt=" - " />
the end hits a hard object which drives the solid pin back aswell as shearing the copper wire so its free to move. it then strikes the primer. the pin should be pointed too which i didn't have on the diagram. primer flashes into the primer mixture which carries the flame to the primary.
comments?

[HypersonicGamer]

Kingspaz - thanks for helping with the diagram. I think your plan looks good. Essentially, it kind of acts like a mortar, and when the pin hits the primer, it ignites the priming composition which is carried out into the Primary which shoots out the steel rod right?

[zaibatsu]

No, I think what Kingspaz means is that the right end of the steel rod strikes something, pushing it towards the left, shearing the copper pin and striking the primer, which then goes on to ignite the priming composition.

[Ghostcustom 24]

I think it may need some modification to keep it under weight but the overall idea looks pretty good.
(PVC can be substituded for steel)

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Ghostcustom 24 ]</small>

[HypersonicGamer]

Hey guys - I was also thinking of another weapon besides a model rocket. I didn't want to start a whole new thread about this subject, but I was wondering if it would possibly work if altered (I promise, no pictures, hehe). ;)

If one were to rig a model helicopter with a weapons payload -like wings of an Apache, and fit these with an electronic release system; would it be possible to turn the helicopter into a weapon? I was thinking of putting AP in C02s and having them dropped from the electronic wing-mounted release system. I'm guessing that once the C02 hits a hard enough surface at a certain height, it would be a decent shockwave to ignite the AP? :p

These are all preliminary thoughts and nothing too serious, please add some comments to what could be done to better the design/weapons/anything. :)

[Energy84]

I believe there was already a thread discussing that idea at some time. But just like you, I'm too lazy to SEARCH for it right now...

[xyz]

Landing on a hard surface is NOT a reliable way of detonating AP inside a CO2 cannister. Like I have previoulsy said in this thread, I have fired a CO2 cannister of AP from an air cannon into a tree and it didn't go off.

[zaibatsu]

Luk@ME&my L33T H£L£ 0f D3atH!

You're assuming the CO2 cartridge falls on hard ground, you're assuming that a CO2 of AP will either have a large killing/maiming range OR you can drop it accurately.

You start designing rockets before you know about rocketry, and you start designing air-to-ground weapons before you know about them.

Read a bit more, then post your thoughts.

[HypersonicGamer]

I saw the impact rocket missile post - ugh...I should have searched there before I posted this (sorry, I'll search first and thorougly before I post something idiotic).

I can't really make it an accurate weapon - the pilot would have to fly it controllably enough to make it accurate. The helicopter would have to fly relatively high for a detonation, but XYZ - you fired a C02 filled with AP and it DIDN'T go off? I was reading articles on AP and the article on Mega's synthesis of AP - and it seems like extremely sensitive stuff.

[Anthony]

AP is a comparatively sensitive explosive.

Like all explosives, it is more and less sensitive to different means and methods of initation. It's one of those things you get the feel for when you've actually made something before...

The idea will work, but you will require and impact ignitor, such as a firearm primer. This is certainly not a new idea. Nor is the use of model helicopters/areoplanes as weapons platforms. These matters have been discussed extensively before.

[xyz]

HypersonicGamer, I think that it didn't go off because the CO2 cartridge formed a hard shell around it that stopped the actual AP crystals fom being whacked against anything.

If it had been a cast caseless block of AP putty however, I think it would have gone off.

AP is not all that shock sensitive compared to how flame sensitive it is.

[FragmentedSanity]

HypersonicGamer - have a look for Lowry's Makeshift Arsenal, from memory the rocket launcher in it was pretty much what your after. But I cant comment on how effective it is as I never made one... but thats what your thread reminded me of when I read the heading. It does seem a little toy-like, but should be good for ideas.

As for AP sensitivity - there has been alot said about it, you should read as much of it as you can; breify variations occur due to things like method of manufacture, purity, storage and a whole lot more. But IMO impact just isnt a reliable method of detonation for AP, in my dreams - unconfined crystral (pea size mound) takes a sharpish blow from a hammer on a solid surface to work. But it can happen so be careful.

xyz: I dont spose you could be convinced to try your theory about a caseless AP Putty projectile? Sounds VERY nice :)

later
FS

[zaibatsu]

Sorry for all the stupidness - I should have looked around the net for some plans on model rocket missiles, but I tried the search on this site but it would not yield anything of the sort so I thought I'd start a new project-thread on this subject (bad start...). Yeah - I fucked up bigtime, and as a newbie I have tarnished my reputation. Although battered down and threatened with NBK's excessive insulting comments (j/k), I hope you guys could still help me and point me in the right direction.

I saw the impact rocket missile post - ugh...I should have searched there before I posted this (sorry, I'll search first and thorougly before I post something idiotic).

Promises promises eh hypersonic? Three strikes...

[kingspaz]

HypersonicGamer, enough with the random ideas. if you have an idea do some bloody research into it yourself and then if after a few hours fact finding it still seems a credible idea THEN post somthing. why waste our time and yours with useless ideas.

do you know anything about model helicopters? do you know they can only carry enough fuel for a relatively short flight? do you know they are just as difficult as real helicopters to fly? do you know they are quite expensive WITHOUT the radio control equipment and engine? do you know you'd most likely have to heavily modify a standard helicopters engine and rotors to lift the extra weight of any decent sized munition?

now, enough of these silly poorly thought out ideas. if you have an idea do some work on it yourself. you have access to the internet so use it!

Ghostcustom 24, yes i agree! i really didn't think much about the material. i think aluminium tube and rod. metal is more likely to set off the primer reliably.

[xyz]

FragmentedSanity, I am NOT going to try a caseless AP projectile due to the friction on the sides of it as it goes through the barrel.

[FragmentedSanity]

xyz: Nods. I should have thought of that. Im sure there would be a way of doing somethinhg similar - I just really like the idea of shooting a lump of explosive at a target... maybe if it was just partially encased - leaving the front open. Or with a nice thick coat of NC lacqure as a shell... Its another one of those things Ill test out oneday I spose. But for now ill stop trying to hijack this thread and leave it to die quietly.
FS

[Skean Dhu]

if you really wanted to shoot AP (assuming you could form it in the proper shape) why not just launch it inside a sabot, no worries about barrel friction.

but as it stands it sounds like its not worth the time and effort when there are much better explosives to use and better ways of setting them off

[xyz]

Well the thing is, I don't really want to shoot AP, it just seems that FragmentedSanity wants me to.:)

[Ghostcustom 24]

Shooting AP doesn’t sound like the brightest thing to do, as you will probably kill yourself.

I have compiled some *basic things that we need to figure out.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

1. We need to find a suitable explosive(s)
2. We need to find and adapt a suitable triggering mechanism
3. We need to figure out how to make the model rocket fly level

[FragmentedSanity]

Lo all :)
It seems Im the only one who likes the idea. Thats harldy a first. But like it I do - and there WILL come a time when I start a thread on my dreams about it - eventually (unless someone beats me to it, but from the tone of the replies that seems unlikely). I think there is potential in the idea... and at worst Ill prove myself wrong :p
Usual safety rules would apply. The device would only be fired remotely - One might consider using a hand held launcher after extensive testing - if thats the sort of thing one was into.
The only likley fatality I can see is the air cannon, and thats assuming I cant overcome the potential friction problem.
But to me the beauty of the idea is this - Air cannons are simple enough to build, from easily obtainable parts, no licence - no questions.... AP is the same. Both are effective by themselves - but together they could be devestating.
later
FS