Revolution

[3287]

I think it goes without saying that anything in this thread is pure theory. If anyone went out and did any of it, they'd be quite foolish and more than a bit dead.

The subject of resistance to dictatorships quickly grew into a discussion of revolution. The thread, rightfully so, was closed due to the arguments it sparked. However, I would like to continue the conversation.

Note that this is NOT about the usefulness of weapons or the value of the Second Amendment. This is about how revolutions start and how they are carried out. Besides, anyone who calls Jefferson paranoid isn't welcome to discuss these things... :p

[rangegal]

How does it feel to be on the governments "terrorist" watch-list? lol...
I once had the idea to start a whole forum about the next (theoretical) American revolution, and how it would be carried out. Then somebody reminded me that it would quickly be shut down and everybody associated with it would be water boarded till we told who was supplying our chemical weapons. Or something like that.

This post isn't to deter such talk, just to remind everybody once more how "dangerous" such "scary" talk can be. Keep it safe/smart guys.

[festergrump]

While theoretical discussion is good food for the brain and all, it's not wise to start such topics "openly" on a set of forums which also deal with weapons and explosives. Besides, if you know that the other topic which you based this thread off of was shut down by a Mod, why rehash what will probably result in a shutdown of this one, too?

Your disclaimer that a certain troll (which name shall not be mentioned by me) isn't invited to participate in this thread was a nice touch, however. :) Somehow I think it lives only to argue rediculous ideas with whomever will give it any resistance whatsoever. It's very existance here is a virtual length of rope, and like all trolls, it will find that rope just irresistable enough to hang itself with. Very soon, by my calculations.

[3287]

If the mods have a problem, they can shut it down. They run the place, so I don't have any right to go into their house and complain about their rules.

However, some major questions were raised. For example, it's true that a bombing or a shooting will not set off a revolution. In fact, they seem to be surefire ways to marginalize your cause and force people further into the loving arms of their government. What is it that triggers a revolution, then?

Another question that intrigues me is, why have we only seen arguably "libertarian" revolutions in one brief stretch of history during the 18th-early 19th century? "Freedom" is an ideal often thrown about when overthrowing a government, but only in the period around the late 1700's did we actually see people fighting for smaller, rather than different, government.

[Lewis]

The other thread ended because it became a place of ignorance. As long as we can not bicker, I see no reason there would be an issue.

rebellion
This is not a word we should be afraid of uttering! I would be tempted to say that this entire forum, and rogue science at large is devoted to a sort of rebellion.
Our discourse is perhaps in deviation from what the average citizen has on his mind, but as has been said before, we are not criminals. The community has done nothing wrong, and we will continue to discuss what we please in a professional manner.

If I've stepped over the line here, I'm sure someone will do me the courtesy of letting me know!

[festergrump]

I'll give you the courtesy of telling you that it takes only two people to talk about carrying out something deemed "illegal" by TPTB for it to be considered a conspiracy to commit such an act (if the act is a felony, so is talking about how to go about it). If you'd like to talk about such things and have binding and printed evidence of it in a court of law near you, they'd be much better carried out in a site which does NOT toss the means to carry out such acts into the till, for everyone's own good. Is that so hard to understand?

If my word isn't good enough for you for some reason, why don't you PM Mega and ask him personally? Do you think Mega would agree that your discussion, theoretical or not, is worth bringing his 11 years of building this site to even the possibility of an infraction of "illegality" (manufactured or not)? Think again. His efforts here are 100% legal as much as they are free. He doesn't need the likes of people who want to dump on his efforts to do just that, because it's the bigfish they'll want to fry, and he's never any part of such nonsense...

The "Overthrow the Government, Dude!" threads have all been started before, and locked before, and for this very reason. I speak from having been witness to most all of them, if not every single one.

Wise up, okay?


If you really want a "Take Over the __________ Government" Rebellion discussion that won't get locked, deleted, or have you banned from the site, there are plenty of free forum hosting sites out there to call your own. Pick one and have at it, I say. Why does it have to be HERE where only harm to Roguesci can become of it? Where's the tradeoff for Mega or the rest of us who enjoy this site for what it is? Where's the actual GOOD it will do?

Like I said in THIS (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=101894#post101894) post:

I'd start looking into survival sites and maybe militia sites to speak more freely about this, honestly. They'd be way ahead of the game (1) and it wouldn't be any real conflict of interest which might get the RS taken down (2).

Take it to Mega or at least a Mod if you think I'm wrong. It's just poor sense.

[Alexires]

This thread walks a fine line. I know you aren't criminals, but we don't want to bring any heat down on The Forum. Other threads like this have been closed in the past because they might have done the same.

Perhaps this thread could analyse past revolutions/rebellions and see why the succeeded/failed?

Regardless, do not let this thread get like "Active demonstration resistance ideas" thread, otherwise I will close it.

[Joxer]

I'd like to hear, from someone that was there, about Tet '68, and how and why that offensive failed. I have my own ideas, namely the VC threw their strengths into the trash and fought in the open, but I was not there and I never served.

[Cobalt.45]

about Tet '68, and how and why that offensive failed.A failure in that it didn't win the war for the north, but it wasn't a total failure- it fucking shocked the US big-time and gave the anti war left ammo that was used till the end.

But I believe the failure, militarily-speaking, was because the south populace didn't rise up against the US and support the north. The north knew that US occupation was hated, but overestimated the south's response when the north hit.

[Joxer]

That could be true. I have heard that before.

Another thing I heard, and I believe it goes along with what you said, was that Giap saw the writing on the wall and knew he would win, and didn't want a bunch of peasants with AKs running around the country after we left.

He used them up, knowing what the outcome would be.
It kills 2 birds with one stone.

[spat]

I kind of liked the idea of discussing why and how revolutions start, as an abstract concept. Obviously it is because people have been pushed "too far" but there is also a huge margin there. The US founding fathers had it *very* easy when they decided they had "too much" compared to other populations that just sat there and suffered (Stalinist Russia and Mao's China for instance). The question is *why* the American revolution gained enough momentum to pass the "couple crackpots" stage when doubtless hundreds of others in far more oppressive environments couldn't.

It's also possible that in a functioning democracy the forces that would allow a revolution to succeed would work within the system to correct the oppression, and that if the system couldn't self correct then the public support that would allow a revolution to succeed simply doesn't exist. That isn't to say that all the actions to create that atmosphere would be necessarily legal, just that "setting the stage" for a revolution would correct the problems without *actually* having to fight it.

[Kaydon]

I am done with hypotheticals.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

I am done with hypotheticals.

Then take it somewhere else.

We will not have people publicly plotting illegal activities here.

[Kaydon]

Watch it.

I respect your position, but you're not about to start that shit with me when you know that I know how this works.

And all I said was I'm done with hypotheticals, I'm not gonna divulge into specifics. I know the protocol.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Watch it.

Ex-fucking-cuse me?


I respect your position, but you're not about to start that shit with me when you know that I know how this works.

And all I said was I'm done with hypotheticals, I'm not gonna divulge into specifics. I know the protocol.


There will not be any plotting of any revolutions here. End of story. Discussing why they happen, how they happen, tactics in them, etc. is fine so long as everything stays hypothetical or historical. But there will be absolutely no plots.

If you have any problems with this, bring it up with me via PM.

[shooter3]

The "who" is found in the "Contra manual" and is valid for any Government, any where. The "how" is found in "Unintended consequenses" by John Ross. The rules of engagement; Any guilty party, any where, any time, but NO innocent people get harmed. That leaves out explosives, for the most part. And you don't fight the Army, or Police. They would be on our side, for the most part, just don't screw with their pay check.

Justification? Start with the "Declaration of Independence" and 20th century history. Do you want to be like one of the 170,000,000 victims that Socialism killed since Lennon?

[3287]

I don't know if conditions are right for that sort of thing in any First-World country. You can't pull a revolution out of nowhere, and you need certain things to make it work. There's a reason the French revolution failed but the American revolution succeeded.

I'll tell you what it is when I figure it out. :)

Incidentally, I'm reading a book, Coup d'Etat, by Edward Luttwak. Interesting study of the coup, but I haven't been able to find an online copy. Does RogueSci have one, or should I scan a copy?

[Alexires]

3287 - As far as I know, it is not on the FTP. Feel free to upload it, and if you don't have an FTP account already, ask tmp for one and then upload it.