White Phosphorus Grenade

[Holotex]

Some testing was done for designing a WP Grenade. This was done on small scale,quantities varied from 7.5 to 18 gr WP. HMTD was used as explosive,quantities varied from 3 to 0.6 gr. To be more specific WP/HMTD; 7.5/3 , 10/0.6 , 18/0.6 . The bodies were made of the closed part of Al sigar container,diam. from 15 to 24 mm,lenght max. 4 cm. The inner container(s) consisted of the same type sigar packaging diam. 15 mm and for 0.6 gr HMTD a plastic limonade drinkstraw was used. The HMTD was loaded into the same type of inner container,only a fraction smaller,resulting in a device with a seperated explosive charge/detonator. These can combined in a second when the time is right. Unfortunatly the results were not really satisfieing. The WP pulverised into dust leaving a thick cloud of white smoke in the first test.Later some burning fragments were observed but they didn't touched the ground. It's a fact that the size of the fragments and their range depends on the Grenade body, construction,amount of WP,amount of explosive and type of explosive. This variation can be observed with different models of WP Bombs from different countries,from different times. I will soon post a link with all the pictures I found on the internet. Has anyone some suggestions about a better(less brisant)explosive and the % WP/expl. to make less and bigger fragments with a larger range ?

[nbk2000]

Pre-granulate the WP and embed the granules in a rubber cement matrix.

This is known in the military as PWP (Plasticized White Phosphorus).

Furthur details are in SIPRI's "Incendiary Weapons" PDF on the FTP. You could get a copy from a member who already has it.

[chemwarrior]

If Im not mistaken, isnt there only one particular way to remove phosphorus once it has entered you skin?

[a_bab]

White P doesn't "enter" into your skin (like mustard gas), it only burns the skin. It is similar to a liquid which burns very hot, because it melts at about 40 degrees C.

It can be neutralised with a copper sulphate solution, which will react with phosphorus.

[nbk2000]

Copper sulphate as a phosphorus burn treatment is asking for kidney failure. When poured on a WP burn, it'll stop the WP from burning, but then the copper is absorbed through the wound where it's transported to the kidney and destroys it. The treatment can kill you where the WP burn wouldn't have.

S.O.P. in the military is simple washing with water and covering with wet gauze till the wound can be debridded under a UV lamp to get all the WP particles.

For WP grenades, a standard #8 detonator was sufficient for a pound of WP to be scattered over a 30+meter radius. So your ratios were massive overkill.

WP may melt at 40*C, but it burns at over 1,200*C. Oh, and it VERY toxic by absorbtion through the burn. Something around 50mg will kill a man.

[xoo1246]

I remember when I was in chemistry class 15 years old, our chemistry teacher descided to burn some WP. We were hanging out of the window after that coughing.

[a_bab]

Yeah, the lethal dose of white P is around 100 mg. So, with the phosphorus contained by a human (in the bones) you can kill 10,000 people !

I personally don't think that there is a danger in using copper sulphate for treating the phosphorus burns since the reaction takes time quite fast (like a neutralisation) and the copper sulphate is not that toxic. The lethal dose is over 5 grames as I remember. So there isn't enough time to be absorbed enough.

...But only if we are dealing with small areas (like a accidental burned hand). Actually I know this as a urgent method to be used in a lab in case of a phosphorus accident.

Yes xoo, the fumes produced by the phosphorus burning are phosphorus pentaoxide, a very toxic chemical which will form with the moisture from the lungs phosphoric acid. Quite nasty. Chough chough !

[vulture]

IIRC, P2O5 is NOT toxic by itself, only corrosive because it forms phosphoric acid in contact with water.

EDIT: Holotex, as you have acces to white phosphorus, why don't you collect your P2O5? You could be dehydrating glacial acetic acid into acetic anhydride! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

<small>[ September 10, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[a_bab]

Yeah Vulture, you are right. It's not toxic as stated here: <a href="http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PH/phosphorus_pentoxide.html" target="_blank">http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PH/phosphorus_pentoxide.html</a>
There are dumbasses some who are labeling chemicals with "VERY TOXIC" if these chems are corrosive or irritants. Is just like labeling sulphuric acid as "toxic".
Now I remember that the fumes formed by the burning of P in clorine are toxic, and not P pentaoxide.

Talking about P pentaoxide, what about making an instalation for producing P from apatite or bones (with coal and sand) ? Maybe a new project ? In this way it can be produced in large quantities.

[vulture]

I know, there are just plain morons who would ban hydrogen hydroxide, just because they don't realize it's water!

[chemwarrior]

From what I found out from my father today, white phosphorus can only be stoped once it becomes covered in blood. Then you have to take a special gel stuff and but it on the wound and then you can pull whatever is left of the phosphorus. (You have to use the gel so that the phosphorus wont come into contact with the air because, acording to my dad, it will reginite...of course what the military uses might not be just phosphorus, but a mixture of a couple things causing that.) Any comments because I am curious about what that gel likely is.

[A-BOMB]

Its just petroleum jelly, nothing special about it.

[chemwarrior]

Ahh, the way my dad made it sound, I thought that it was something more.

[Holotex]

Some nice pics of Phosphorus Bombs/Grenades from WW1 to Vietnam are posted on this link,just take a look... <a href="http://groups.msn.com/krypton23" target="_blank">Pictures</a> click on "afbeeldingen" to see them.

[nbk2000]

Using Any petroleum product on WP is BAD. WP dissolves in petroleum, including vaseline, making it liable to absorbtion and/or ignition of the petroleum.

Straight water only on WP. A-bab, read the SIPRI book previously mentioned for why using copper is bad.

[chemwarrior]

NBK, is there anything other than water that can be used and that is safe?

[Anthony]

Well, by the way he said "water only", I'd guess not...

Would urine be ok in an emergency, being mostly water?

[nbk2000]

Urine can be used too if that's all you got.

Intense mechanical treatment (scalpel, forceps, and pads) under irrigation or immersion with a 1% Potassium Permanganate in 5% Sodium Bicarbonate water solution should be performed till luminousity under UV lighting ceases, indicating all the WP has been nuetralized.

This treatment is extremely painful and is best done under anaesthesia.

The Kperm oxidizes the WP into acid oxides which are nuetralized by the bicarb into harmless phosphates.