Plastic Bonded Nitroglycerin

[nbk2000]

Since we've got people making NG, and plasticizing explosives with PIB, the idea occured to me of possibly combining the two.

The nitro couldn't be used as is because of its liquid nature, but it can be solidified with nitrocellulose into blasting gel, or an inert absorbant like dynamite.

I'm thinking of casting the gel into very thin sheets (like fruit-rollups) which are then frozen with dry ice to make them brittle, hence to be powered by crushing with a rolling pin. The cooling also desensitizes the NG, which is almost impossible to explode when frozen.

Once powered, the material is allowed to thaw back to ambient (far away since the thawing is what's dangerous) before incorporation with the PIB, preferably with a remotely operated dough mixer.

This would combine ease of material supply with a powerful explosive (unlike HMTD or AP) in a convenient to handle form (Plastique).

Comments?

[mongo blongo]

Sounds good! The only problem I can see is that you will have to handle it with gloves to avoid the nitro headache. How are you thinking about dispersing the PIB? Dissolve it in toluene?

<small>[ July 13, 2002, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]</small>

[PYRO500]

The only problem I see is the pressure from the rolling pin might cause the blasting gel to thaw or heat and partially frzen nitro is extra sensitive.

[mongo blongo]

The finished product may be *similar* to Gelignite (mixture composed of nitroglycerine, NC, wood pulp, and KNO3 I believe).

<small>[ July 13, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]</small>

[nbk2000]

The other idea is to mix the NG and NC while cold (to inhibit gelling), then adding the mix to a preheated acetone (or toluene) solution of PIB in the mechanical mixer.

The heat induces gelling. The mixing causes emulsification of the NG/NC gel in the liquified binder, and the solvent keeps it fluid till it's allowed to evaporated off. Then the mixer continues the kneading till a uniform mix of NG/NC gel particles suspended in PIB binder is obtained.

It may be neccessary to use a solvent that doesn't dissolve NG or NC, but does PIB, in order to get the emulsifying effect.

Experimentation is in order. :D

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After reviewing COPAE, I noticed that blasting gelatin is MORE sensitive to shock when frozen, rather than less. However, colloidial explosives are less sensitive to initiation than liquid explosives, which are (in turn) less sensitive than pulverant (granular) explosives.

And BG is less sensitive to initiation than any form of explosive where the NG is in liquid form. So that should make it quite safe to handle.

A ball tumbler with plastic or bronze balls as media could be charged with shredded BG and dry ice. After letting it cool for a little while to freeze, you proceed to tumble it slowly. After a while, the BG should be reduced to a fine powder. Naturally the tumbling drum must be vented to release the CO2 pressure during the tumbling. As long as there's dry ice, there should be no danger of explosion. Then dump it (still cold) out in a thin layer to warm up before incorporation in the binder.

As for headaches during handling, I don't think that'd be a problem since the NG is bound into a gel form, which is itself bound within a plasticizer. So there should be minimal free NG to be absorbed. And how much do you expect to handle the PBN (Plastic Bonded Nitro)? It should be sealed in a container while stored, and handled as little as possible to retain highest density after pressing into brick form. Any handling will reduce density and velocity.

Anyone seen "floam" at the toy store? It's little polystryene beads coated with some sticky shit so it retains shapes like clay. I'd think little prills of BG (or any explosive) in PIB should be similar.

PBN should be better than gelignite. Firstly, there's no nitrate to absorb water from the air. Secondly, PBN would be about 90% nitro, compared to 60% for gelignite. Much greater VOD then. Plus, it's moldable and should be highly resistant to nitro seepage.

[shooter3]

Gelatin dynamite and blasting gelatin are 2 differant products. I've seen gelatin dynamite before. It looks like greasy window putty. It's all ready a very plastic material. The only differance between the two is the amount of NC used. I'd be very reluctant to put that stuff in a ball mill. You all know what a hassle it is to set off AN, well today I had an interesting expiriance. I have been trying to burn out an old stump. I had been putting AN on it for several months hoping it would soak down into the roots. This works great with Pot. Clorate stump remover, but as you know, you can't get it anymore. Anyway I finaly got around to torching it today and about 20 minutes into it the thing started with a couple of small detonations (fire cracker sized) I hit the deck and and was shitting bricks for about one hour expecting the whole thing to go off at once!(I had put on about 6 pounds of AN and the stump was right next to my Dads house). I know this is posted in the wrong section,but I wanted to re-inforce your sense of caution. Stuff that seems logical and safe can lead to disaster. Tumbling any type of nitro in a ball mill is just a little to risky. ( To all you Palastinians out there; I did hear that ball milling AP increases the power by 10 times. If your going to be a suicide bomber, you don't want to "check out" to cheaply. You want all the power you can get).

[ALENGOSVIG1]

It'd be safe as long as the nitro stays completely frozen. I know it sounds crazy but the process would'nt be that dangerous if it was done properly.

[nbk2000]

Shooter3, please use the invention known as the "Paragraph" in your posts. Makes it much easier to read. :)

Frozen nitro is basically inert. There's plenty of historical proof that it's nearly impossible to explode frozen nitro.

What material could be used as an absorbant? I know there's the diamiticous (SP?) earth, and keislegheir (SP?), but there's got to be something easier to get (and spell! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) that'd absorb something like 80% or more of it's volume in nitro.

[Charlie Workman]

A sheet explosive patented in the 1880's absorbed the NG in felt, which was then encased in parafinned paper. Otherwise, gelling with NC is probably your best bet. I see no reason for PIB, other than the novelty of the thing. Don't think that you'll get a PE comparable to C4. Can't get past those NG headaches. Perhaps microencapsulation would be worth a shot.
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"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas"
-Gidget

[mongo blongo]

I remember something called "fuller's earth"(sp?) which is used to absorb plant resin or something. I think it could be the same thing as that diamiticous earth that NBK mentioned, I don't know.
I know that there are many Dynamite formulations which use absorbent materials. I have them written down *somewhere* so I will have a look for them.
Charlie Workman-The PIB is used to form a plastique. That's the whole point of this thread. :)
It's obvious that it won't even come close to the performance of C4 but it's the ease of obtaining the materials used that make it ideal for home manufacture.

<small>[ July 16, 2002, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Microencapsulation is complicating things just a little bit, don't you think?

Nitrate fertilizer, drain opener, glycerine, smokeless powder, and poster putty=PBN

Fuming nitric acid, drain opener, hexamethylenetetramine, ethyl hexyl sebecate, PIB, and motor oil=C-4

Difference in performance? About 1,000-2,000 m/s. RDX and NG are nearly the same. RDX is faster, but NG produces more gas. Not much difference really anyways. Either one will obliterate a target.

Difference in effort and cost? Significant. NG is much easier to make than RDX, and the materials are easily available anywhere in the world. No need for distilling fuming nitric or making hexamine.

Everybody has this hang up about wanting "C-4". Well, guess what? It's not all that. The military went with that because of it's all around usefulness in demolitions, not because it's the best thing out there.

And it's sooooo cliched. Every terrorist hack out there has "C-4". Dare to be different! :D
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Just a thought...what's the filler in poster putty? Is it an absorbant material like chalk or such that could be used to absorb NG? Wouldn't that be convenient? :)

[Charlie Workman]

What you say is true, NBK. That's why I couldn't understand why you wanted to use PIB. It's more for crystalline materials than liquids. A regular gelatin dynamite formulation would probably be fine. I've used a bit of C-4 in my time, and in think the stuff is great. If you have it. A good gelatin can be comparable in power, or at least good enough for government work, as we used to say. I've used it for stumping and boulders over the years and never had a complaint. NG is the old stand by. Mixed right it will perform any work you need done as good as any other. C-4's strong points are power and ease of handling. That's its only real edge.
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"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas"
-Gidget

[nbk2000]

That's the whole point. The NG isn't going to be a liquid. It's going to be a solid, having been frozen and ground up, in gelatin form. This is what's going to be bound into a plastic matrix with the PIB poster putty resin.

In fact, one could skip making the nitro in the first place, and just use the frozen and ground smokeless powder. This is an explosive itself. Not as powerful as NG, but more than enough for non-steel demolitions and AP weapons.

[mongo blongo]

NBK- I still can't identify what the filler is. It may be different in each type, (blue,white,green).I will have to wash the filler thoroughly with petrol in a filter to remove all traces of the binder and dry it. Then we can test if it is an absorbent material. That would be convenient. :)

[Charlie Workman]

I don't think you would need to freeze it for granulation. With enough NC in acetone added to the mix you could spread it on a smooth surface (a marble table top is often quoted, but who has one of those?) until it hardens then break it up in a blender or some such. I've converted single base (M6) to NC using the blender method, but I think it would be very hard to detonate when using a binder. DB has been used as a sensitizer in various patented blasting agents, but not SB. Your PIB source intrigues me. I've never found a ready source for this material. I'll look forward to your findings. Has anyone ever tried PIB with NG, just to see what would happen?
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"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas"
-Gidget

[nbk2000]

During my stint as graveyard watchman, I noticed large granite slabs lying about. These are blank tombstones. I tried lifting one and would estimate an easy 100+ pounds in weight. These would make excellent mass dampners for microgram sensitive scales. They'd also be good for rolling things on since they have an extremely smooth surface. :)

No fucking way would I try blending anything with NG in it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Rubber paddle mixer or plastic ball mill...both far away from anything that might be destroyed in an explosion.

The PIB is the binder in poster putty with the plasticizer already mixed in. Beauty. :D Though I don't think mixing a liquid explosive with a gelatinous binder is going to equal much more than a goo.

Though, if one had PETN, they could sprinkle that in with the mixed liquids till it firmed up into a moldable putty since an 80/20 mix of NG and PETN is described in COPAE as being a moldable plastic.

But, since the NG would still be in free liquid form, there'd still be the probability of liquid seepage. That presents a hazard in storage and transport, especially in hot weather.