Suitable Primaries

[Wallybanger]

I've been lurking, reading and learning here for almost 6 months now and I must say, there's a hellova lot of information for a noob to digest!

I've UTFSE and gone through a tonne of books, both off of the FTP and from Mr.Science's book collection torrent, but what I don't seem to be able to wrap my head around is the sensitivity of primary explosives. Without experiencing the phenomenon first hand it's hard to get a tangible idea of what it takes to set these things off. I think it's a pretty important concept for anyone who wants to keep their fingers (like me for example).

My goal (theoretically of course) is to detonate an ANFO charge but building a blasting cap seems like a daunting challenge and, frankly, worries the hell out of me.

My first hand experience with primaries is limited to cartridge primers since I'm a reloader. I have popped a few primers reloading so I kinda have a feel for what it takes to set those off. I have read some threads and some books that have talked about using Lead styphnate, Lead azide and mercury fulminate in blasting caps and that piqued my interest since it's the closest anything has come to my first hand knowledge since I started reading about HE. However, there are some other threads that have lead me to believe that there are other, safer, easier to produce primaries out there than the ones listed above.

Anyway, I'm not looking for anyone to hold my hand, I simply respect first hand knowledge (hopefully from some of you) as much as that from accredited texts and I'm hoping that I can be pointed in the right direction. What are your personal opinions when it comes to the safest primary explosives?


I'll add that I am quite interested in the Mil-spec detonators (Lead styphnate/Lead azide/RDX) due to their stability(?) and shelf life (I believe that's the M7).

I haven't seen this around but it looks like it would be a fantastic reference. Does anyone have a line one it? I may just splurge and spend the $19 on it:
Friction Sensitivity of Primary Explosives by Joel Harris (http://www.stormingmedia.us/28/2899/A289911.html)

[Hinckleyforpresident]

There are plenty of pages with the initiation energies for most primary explosives. I would recommend you start by UTFSE to find them, and then perhaps build a drop test rig. The rig doesn't have to be loaded with anything, but it would let you get hands-on-experience with what 2kg at 2-4cm means.

On a side note, there is no such thing as a safe primary. Primary explosives must be inherently unstable in order to do their job. If one were looking for a "safe" blasting cap, then I would recommend an ETN EBW cap. In my opinion, they are the safest.

[totenkov]

The only way to really understand the power and respect that these substances command is to bring them to life yourself.

Don't look at building a cap as being scary, just proceed with caution. Making them is a nerve racking task, but approach it as coolly as possible. Obviously, your first time making a cap don on all protective paraphernalia and start using paper casings. If your hands start shaking, find a new hobby.

Start by making some simple, uncomplicated primaries. Fulminates, azides and styphnates, as you mentioned are probably outside your capability at this time. I recommend starting with peroxides simply because of their ease of manufacture and severe instability. Why would this be good? Gain respect early.

Afer gaining an appreciation for them,try the primary I recommend to everyone, though not many people use: Silver acetylide. Easy to make and a very good primary. Can't initiate with a hammer or drop test, but extremely flame sensitive; making it excellent for electric caps.

[Wallybanger]

On a side note, there is no such thing as a safe primary. Primary explosives must be inherently unstable in order to do their job. If one were looking for a "safe" blasting cap, then I would recommend an ETN EBW cap. In my opinion, they are the safest.
Yes, I realize that and figured you would know what I meant. I'm assuming that, although all primaries are dangerous, some must be less dangerous than others and more suitable for production and use. AP seems like it is extremely dangerous although I have read quite a few k3wl threads where kids are making it and actually surviving (unlike the kid in sweden(?) who made a kg and turned him self into pink mist) . I suppose what I was looking for was some advice with a human element and not just numbers out of a textbook ;)

Thanks for the reply, I'll have another look for initiation energies and see what I can find. I may just build a drop rig for the hell of it. I'll also focus some energy on ETN & EBW.
The only way to really understand the power and respect that these substances command is to bring them to life yourself.

Don't look at building a cap as being scary, just proceed with caution. Making them is a nerve racking task, but approach it as coolly as possible. Obviously, your first time making a cap don on all protective paraphernalia and start using paper casings. If your hands start shaking, find a new hobby.

Start by making some simple, uncomplicated primaries. Fulminates, azides and styphnates, as you mentioned are probably outside your capability at this time. I recommend starting with peroxides simply because of their ease of manufacture and severe instability. Why would this be good? Gain respect early.

Afer gaining an appreciation for them,try the primary I recommend to everyone, though not many people use: Silver acetylide. Easy to make and a very good primary. Can't initiate with a hammer or drop test, but extremely flame sensitive; making it excellent for electric caps.
Thanks totenkov, that sounds like some great advice. So you figure something like AP in a small batch would be a good place to start?

I'm not overly familiar with the synthesis difficulty of fulminates, azides and styphnates but I listed them since I figured the materials could be salvaged from rifle/pistol primers.

Believe me, I have respect for these substances :) I'll be doing much more reading before (theoretically) trying to make them myself. You guys have given me a good push here. I'll look into the Silver acetylide right away.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Back in the day, I almost exclusively used AP as a primary - with no ill effects. If you respect it, then it won't bite you in the ass.

[onlyinmydreams]

Hinckley,
When it comes to peroxides, do you prefer HMTD or AP, and for what reasons? Based on my research it seems like HMTD is somewhat safer plus has a higher VOD. My issue with these two peroxides, however, is consistency in production. It seems to me, that since one can find hexamine, pure citric acid powder, and a basic 90%+ sulfuric acid drain cleaner quite consistently, HMTD would be an easier material to produce with identical results each time. The only minor headache for HMTD would seem to be creating a magnetic stir but even that wouldn't be too much to ask for. What did you mainly use AP to detonate, and were you able to maintain consistency? I had a dream about making some AP but wanting to move up to HMTD. Should I wait and get more experience with AP before moving on to HMTD, ETN,etc. in my dreams?

[Microtek]

There are a few primaries that are actually less sensitive than RDX to all mechanical stimuli and also essentially electrostatically insensitive. They aren't exactly beginner primaries in the sense that they are slightly difficult to synthesize, but I think that the increased peace of mind is worth it.

I'm thinking of the azo-chlathrates which Rosco has brought to our attention, but with less than the full complement of azide ions. By adjusting the amount of sodium azide you add, you can produce a primary which will not respond to hammer blows on an anvil, grinding in a ceramic mortar and pestle or even DDT (in reasonable amounts) unless confined. I haven't tested the electrostatic sensitivity, but according to the patent it should be very low.

There is also a cobalt nitrotetrazolate salt which exhibits very similar properties. I made it by combining solutions of cobalt(II)chloride and sodium nitrotetrazolate, so it may simply be Co(NTz)2, but it could also be a mixed chloride/NTz or there might be water of hydration or chloride ligands, etc.

In my opinion AP should be used by itself in very small amounts (less than a gram) to ease into the world of HEs, not as a primary in combination with more powerful (or larger amounts of) secondaries.

[-=HeX=-]

For beginning, try very small amounts of TATP. See in the TATP thread the damage 20 grams can do, and I got lucky that time. Synth about 5 grams TATP and use it in amounts of no more than a gram at a time to get a feel for it. Then make HMTD and follow the same trials. Then make picric acid, make sodium nitrite and attempt DDNP which is a bitch of a synth. Then attempt azides and silver acetylide and Fulminates. Start small, stay safe.

[Wallybanger]

There are a few primaries that are actually less sensitive than RDX to all mechanical stimuli and also essentially electrostatically insensitive. They aren't exactly beginner primaries in the sense that they are slightly difficult to synthesize, but I think that the increased peace of mind is worth it.......
Less sensitive than RDX? Wow, that sure sounds good. I'm all for more work if it means more safety! So, basically, those primaries would be flame sensitive but rather meek in terms of mechanical and electrostatic sensitivity.... that's what I'm getting here and that definitely sounds good.

yeah, as I was saying above, AP worries me. That whole "Mother of Satan" thing is pretty clear cut. 1g batches to play with alone sounds ok. I can probably deal with that. Thanks Microtek, I sure appreciate the addition.
For beginning, try very small amounts of TATP. See in the TATP thread the damage 20 grams can do, and I got lucky that time. Synth about 5 grams TATP and use it in amounts of no more than a gram at a time to get a feel for it. Then make HMTD and follow the same trials. Then make picric acid, make sodium nitrite and attempt DDNP which is a bitch of a synth. Then attempt azides and silver acetylide and Fulminates. Start small, stay safe.
Sounds good. I don't know if there is another thread centered around this stuff but what you guys have added so far is exactly what I was looking for.


So I've been bumbling around reading about Silver Acetylide and I have found a few syntheses but not a whole lot of information on the compound its self. The syntheses look quite simple and the base chemicals are easy to come by, which I like. The relative stability is also a plus. The Encyclopedia of Explosives and Related Items lists a VoD of 1880m/s which kind of has me scratching my head. I'm assuming that the stuff would best be used as the first stage in a firing train with a much more powerful booster. I'm going to keep looking for info as I would really like to know how hygroscopic it is and if it gets along with metals.

[Yafmot]

Wallybanger, TATP IS Acetone Peroxide, just the trimeric isomer. It can be difficult to make sure you're not getting any dimer in there, which is much less stable and powerful than the trimer. Also, many commercial solvents are reclaimed from industrial waste, with varying levels of purity. One could easily go to the hardware store and get something labeled "Acetone" but with significant levels of God knows what else. A fraction of a percent of Naphtha could meke your product dangerously unstable and, if there were a way to check, I would bet the farm that a lot of people who ar short an eyeball or a couple of digits got that way because of this.

I'm not going to get in a lengthy arguement with half the members over this, but if you must fuck around with Peroxides, stick with HMTD. It's by far the most stable and powerful of the lot, and your QC will be a lot easier.

And just because there's a lot of emphasis here on improvisation and DYI approaches doesn't mean you shouldn't still endeavor to get the best materials and equipment you can possibly obtain. No point in risking your precious ass on cheap shortcuts if you don't have to. And you can't spend enough time reading up on safe handling and other practices. There's just too much grief in failure here.

[al93535]

People often say HMTD is more stable, and generally safer then AP. I must say I disagree.

AP IS actually more chemically stable, it does however sublime and can grow to large crystals that are sensitive. This does not make it more unstable though.

HMTD is alot more sensitive to friction. I had some go off by simply withdrawing the wooden dowel to press a detonator. Yes it was washed throughly, and neutralized completely.

HMTD is more powerful though, I must admit. I believe it was Rosco that showed with some testing AP would not set off picric acid in his detonator, whereas HMTD did.

Personally I would veer away from peroxides. But I think most everyone has to try them, its very fun to play with in small amounts. You can learn alot, and learn safe careful handling techniques. Just be safe and if you are serious, go for a safer non-peroxide alternative.

[Wallybanger]

Wallybanger, TATP IS Acetone Peroxide, just the trimeric isomer. It can be difficult to make sure you're not getting any dimer in there, which is much less stable and powerful than the trimer. Also, many commercial solvents are reclaimed from industrial waste, with varying levels of purity. One could easily go to the hardware store and get something labeled "Acetone" but with significant levels of God knows what else. A fraction of a percent of Naphtha could meke your product dangerously unstable and, if there were a way to check, I would bet the farm that a lot of people who ar short an eyeball or a couple of digits got that way because of this.

I'm not going to get in a lengthy argument with half the members over this, but if you must fuck around with Peroxides, stick with HMTD. It's by far the most stable and powerful of the lot, and your QC will be a lot easier.

And just because there's a lot of emphasis here on improvisation and DYI approaches doesn't mean you shouldn't still endeavor to get the best materials and equipment you can possibly obtain. No point in risking your precious ass on cheap shortcuts if you don't have to. And you can't spend enough time reading up on safe handling and other practices. There's just too much grief in failure here.
Hmmm, I didn't know that about the acetone but it sure makes sense (I know that TCAP and TATP are both AP ;)). The difference between the dimer and trimer is rxn temp, correct? I get the feeling that if you had produced the dimer you would know it, had you been watching your thermometer.

Care to explain why you believe that HMTD is more stable? Could impure chemicals account for the arguments from fellow enthusiasts? (I'm sure theoretical proof exists as to which one is more stable)

In terms of you safety recommendations, I couldn't agree more.
People often say HMTD is more stable, and generally safer then AP. I must say I disagree.

AP IS actually more chemically stable, it does however sublime and can grow to large crystals that are sensitive. This does not make it more unstable though.

HMTD is alot more sensitive to friction. I had some go off by simply withdrawing the wooden dowel to press a detonator. Yes it was washed throughly, and neutralized completely.

HMTD is more powerful though, I must admit. I believe it was Rosco that showed with some testing AP would not set off picric acid in his detonator, whereas HMTD did.

Personally I would veer away from peroxides. But I think most everyone has to try them, its very fun to play with in small amounts. You can learn alot, and learn safe careful handling techniques. Just be safe and if you are serious, go for a safer non-peroxide alternative.
ok, I hope this doesn't come off as kewl.... when I think stability and sensitivity, in terms of energetics, I tend to feel as though they are synonymous (which of course they aren't). When people on here talk about stability (provided they know what they are talking about) are they referring to the inherent molecular stability of the compound, free of any outside influences? When they talk about sensitivity are they referring the compounds willingness to break down upon physical stimulation from an outside source?

I just see these words thrown around a lot on the board and it can be confusing. To me it seems as though they can be used in the same context. When I hear "unstable" or "sensitive" I think "missing body parts". My main priority is safety.

What, in your opinion, is a safer non-peroxide primary? I probably will try some TATP at some point in very small quantities.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

If you are using HCl or H2SO4 as the catalyst, then you are bound to get at least a tiny amount of the dimer. It only takes a small decomposition to detonate the whole sample, so contamination to any degree is dangerous.

The colder the better, because you will be making LESS dimer. But you will still be making at least a little bit.

[Wallybanger]

It only takes a small decomposition to detonate the whole sample, so contamination is very difficult to avoid.
Sorry Hinckley, but that statement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense... could you rephrase?

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Sorry Hinckley, but that statement doesn't seem to make a lot of sense... could you rephrase?

No problem, I phrased my previous post poorly.

Contamination of TATP with DADP is unavoidable. The temperature is a factor in how much dimer to trimer you produce, but no matter what you make some of each. As a result, any sample of acetone peroxide will contain a very small amount of DADP. This small amount of DADP can ruin the batch because it can initiate TATP quite easily.

Essentially, acetone peroxide is inherently dangerous. Even if you manage a very low reaction temp, you will still have a sensitive product.

[Yafmot]

Wallybanger, my bad. I did mix up stability and sensitivity. I should be more specific.

As far as catalysts go, it would be wise to eschew the use of strong acids, as Hinckley implied. And Citric is so ridiculously easy to get, and doesn't raise any eyebrows when you purchase it. Think home brew shops & health food stores.