Best Martial Art [Archive] - The Explosives and Weapons Forum

Microtek

April 9th, 2003, 10:52 AM

There are certainly some martial arts that are more effective than others, but there is no single system that is better than all others. It all depends on what you want it to do; for instance do you want to be able to defend yourself against muggers or drunks who attack without technique or do you want to fight skilled opponents. Also, what about weapons ( do you want to be able to use them ? or to defend against them ? or both ? ).
In general, I'd reccomend a system that is quite broad such as ju-jitsu, because you will then never meet someone who attacks in a wholely unfamiliar way. Specialized systems such as judo or ( most forms of ) karate tend to freeze up a bit when faced with someone who fights differently from what they are used to. So grapple with boxers and karate practitioners ( and wing tsun fighters ), punch at judo guys and fights defensively and whiplike against aikido.
Having said this, I should also mention that much of the effectiveness of a martial art lies in the intention of the practitioner to improve his fighting abilities with what he learns rather than use it to advance in belt colour etc.
Another large part of the combat effectiveness lies in the experience and confidence of the practitioner and for these reasons ( and because skilled fighters tend to borrow effective techniques from other systems ), it becomes more difficult to determine what system a fighter belongs to when he becomes more experienced.

Anthony

April 9th, 2003, 04:20 PM

Like Microtek said, trying a bit of everything would probbaly be best. I wouldn't expect martial arts training to give you any more than increased fitness, stamina and improved reactions. If you can't throw a punch to start with, I doubt it would help. Real improvement will take years to achieve. If you can't kick someone's arse now, a few lessons in wannabe-ninja ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) won't help.

You don't seem like a guy that'd waste his time and only end up wrongly thinking he's invincible.

BTW, you haven't gone into any detail, but just from what you've said, this guy hasn't done anything wrong. He just got to have lunch with a nice girl (depends, she might have roped him in and he doesn't really like her...). If I was him, and you deemed I required punishment, then I'd at least try to put you down for what I percieved to be arrogance.

But like I said, I don't know the details :)

rikkitikkitavi

April 9th, 2003, 05:15 PM

I could recomend Krav Maga or similar military originated defence and attack system.

They are all developed to be used by people in ordinary clothes without years of training, but of course the more training, the better you get.

Many police forces also use this system.

Another popular system is filipino Escrima and Indonesian Kali( that is where the sticks so popular with US police come from) , also heavily focused on fighting hand-to-knife combat and similar situations.

Grappling techniques or wrestling is also useful in hand-to-hand since very little fights are done by round-house kicks to the head.
And it takes years to learn how to jump 2 m high and break a piece of wood.

/rickard

photonic

April 9th, 2003, 06:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I wouldn't expect martial arts training to give you any more than increased fitness, stamina and improved reactions. <hr /></blockquote>Heh, well, that's three advantages in a fight right there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Anyway, I get what you're saying. I used to think the same thing because I took taekwondo for like 2 years when I was a kid. I'm fairly certain that the only thing that did was improve my flexibility. My kicks or punches would not have been enough to hurt anybody. I don't really feel that's the case with jiu-jitsu. I'm a fairly large guy(6'2" about 215 lbs.) and when I first started training I often got beat by much smaller people even though I could throw them around very easily. Granted, it was grappling, not street fighting, but if I had wanted to fight this guy/these guys IRL, I would have probably looked at him and thought, "He's smaller. Probably faster. My advantage will be on the ground." and then if I took him down I would have lost. I definately think it gives you an advantage over somebody who has no martial arts/fighting experience, but I still wouldn't be interested in fighting Shaq.

On a sidenote, I'm not actually interested in hitting that kid(the one with my g/f). I was just curious because I saw on a TV show(Taxi I think) a police officer ask a guy if he wanted "to find out 8 places on his body that could be hit without a mark?" So, I was wondering if there's any factual basis behind this.

rikki: Do you know how vale tudo compares with Krav Maga? They teach vale tudo(streetfighting basically) at my place but I've never made it to a class.

HypersonicGamer

April 9th, 2003, 08:21 PM

A friend of mine had taken Hapkido - and he had to use it once in a fight. He was an advanced student, and he said that he took down the street punk in seconds. Now obviously, this could be done with any martial art, but Hapkido utilizes "lightning movements, which hardly can be noticed, the aggressor is arranged to reflex countermovements, which then are used in a subsequent technique."

I don't know particularly too much about this martial art, but I've heard from friends that it is a very focused and respected martial art. It is orginally from Korea - and it includes "a vast variety of arm an leg joint locks, weapon techniques, throw, kick, hit, and nerve pressure techniques." (I'm sure just like any other martial art, heh).

Check it out at <a href="http://www.hapkido-info.net" target="_blank">www.hapkido-info.net</a>

Rhadon

April 9th, 2003, 09:20 PM

Quoting myself (topic: Forum FTP)
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Since hand-to-hand fighting is also related to the subject of this forum, I thought that some of you might profit from viewing the (non-staged) Ultimate Fighting Championship. I could upload <a href="http://www.ufc.tv/events/ppv/ppvFull.asp?eventID=48" target="_blank">UFC 41</a> (do not look at the fight card since it will show the outcomes; filesize: 1.4 GB) if you're interested and think that it's worth the traffic...
<hr /></blockquote>The offer is still standing. I could upload it as soon as we're allowed to do so again.

irish

April 9th, 2003, 09:40 PM

I did taekwondo for many years and it is very helpfull in a fight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . you are best to go to a few different places, look at different systems and you will see that some are big on the fighting side some more on the tecneque (sp) side of it. this will very between different places of the same system too.
allso learn from other systems/codes than your own, for example taekwondo is big on kicking but not much use in a packed crowd, if you are grappling with them and give them a good leg chek and they then find it's bloody hard to fight with one leg :D .
so there are a lot of things that you can learn from all fighting martial arts then put them together to become a very effective fighter.
good luck

photonic

April 9th, 2003, 10:23 PM

Rhadon: I'm about to buy a 120 GB hard drive for the ftp I run on my computer. Once I hook it up, I, personally, would love to have it. Althought this is off topic, my jiu-jitsu place also has a series of instructional videos. I imagine people here would enjoy them. If I can get any of them(they're 75 a piece), I'll rip them down and put them on my ftp. Anyway, back to the topic!
In UFC most of what you will see is jiu-jitsu mixed with other standing martial arts(mostly kickboxing). I've actually met Ken Shamrock and Guy Mezger. If we have any members in the San Francisco area, The Lion's Den is a renowned place for training.

[ April 09, 2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: photonic ]

Rhadon

April 10th, 2003, 09:09 AM

Okay photonic, if other members do also have access to this FTP that might be a good idea!

A-BOMB

April 10th, 2003, 02:00 PM

I do Tang Soo Do, and I like it except for the part that I cut open my toe on the board I was trying to kick for testing on saturday. But anyway I like it because sometimes we practice rope fighting and other things like knife, staff, grapleing, everyman for himself typethings, and american gladiator kinda stuff.

<a href="http://www.rvtsda.com" target="_blank">www.rvtsda.com</a>

[ April 10, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]

Mr Cool

April 10th, 2003, 05:23 PM

Haha, I found out just how effective martial arts can be the other day! I'm not a trained fighter but I'm OK for an average guy, I through a quick jab at this bloke (who I didn't know had completed his black belt test thing a year or so before...) and before I knew it I was on the ground with my arm behind my back. He's not a big guy, either :o .
Good job we were only messing around!!!
Martial arts are a good way to go, but just sparring with a mate will help you to get better at the kind of fight you're likely to get in on the streets. That's what I was doing with the guy above, we put some gloves on and had a little mini "Fight Club" going <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

DaRkDwArF

April 11th, 2003, 02:28 AM

I've done 6 martial arts in my life, all of which have been done for at least a year upwards to about 6 years now, believe me, the only martial arts you want to bother about for street defence are military based modern arts, or a japanese school that focuses specifically on modern day applications.

I currently study Iaido as it's a completly non combative art that I do for spiritual refinement and relaxation. I don't even bother with competition.

I stopped studying Jujutsu because it's principals of self defence revolved around the fact that you were fighting one person at a time (no such thing as a fair fight on the street), and Bujinkan Ninjutsu was good and went well into group attack scenarios and modern day applications, but the techniques all lacked refinement and there was no further traing as the sensei was a money hungry bastard.

Leave kickboxing, boxing, karate, kungfu and all that traditional stuff behind. Excellent for personal development and fighting, but not modern day street fighting... Krav Maga and Military arts are the way to go, using western clothing, fighting against western hands and usings everyday items to fight with.

I have a personal grudge about sports and flashy arts as their based on rules that you allow to be subconsciously programmed into your head when training, even RTB by states to train as if it were real...

A-BOMB

April 11th, 2003, 01:11 PM

Well I do that some a few days ago training for selfdefence then master Homschek turns off all the lights and declares a freefor all type of self defence(grap them any way and any one) the only like was from a broke street light and passing cars. That was wacked.

Omogen

April 11th, 2003, 08:51 PM

i have trained thai boxing for about a year and believe me its very effiecient in street fights. There are no fancy kicks or that stuff like there are in kickboxing.
You never get the time too do a jumping roundhouse too the guys head if you havent trained for a long time.

When you kick in thai boxing you use your shinbone. This is more effiecient and more powerfull than just a usual snap kick when you use your foot. Sometimes in thai boxing the boxers defend the kicks with the arms by accident...the usual parry is shinbone against shinbone.

When this shinbone have rammed on the arm it has happend many times that the bone in the arm breaks. Its not THAT common in thai fights since the boxers are experienced and would never parry a shibone kick with the arm. But a street punk doesnt know about that. If you have some experience you could crack his hip bone or the rips easy as hell too if you get a clean blow.

And with the exception of this extremely effiecient kick you learn how too use your knees and elbows, which is not ok too use in that many martial arts. These are excellent too use also. Its VERY VERY easy too knock a guy down with a elbow blow.

An extremely good self defence/offence martial art in my opinion.

And i hope you are not thinking "hmmm which one is the best martial art i can learn fast and kick some ass"

Ezekiel Kane

April 11th, 2003, 09:03 PM

I have a rather useful document on dim-mak that I will gladly send/upload where desired if someone requests. I may upload it to the FTP when uploads are resumed anyway.

Dim-mak, AKA 'touch of death,' is a traditional martial arts skill that takes years to develop. Obviously, you can't just pick up the skill of killing another with touch overnight, but the document is a place to get started. If you want a primer on traditional ninjitsu, pick up a copy of Ashida Kim's Secrets of the Ninja.

green beret

April 11th, 2003, 09:32 PM

Basically there is no best martial art, to become competent at fighting and defending yourself, the best thing would be to train a variety of arts, and then "distill" the good knowlege into one having the good aspects of the arts you tried. Having significant experince, I would reccomend, Jiu Jitsu, Hapkido, and also a form of non-sport taekwondo, I say this because I used to practise a form of Taekwondo that was vastly different from any other forms. It was highly effective, for example: Blackbelts from the other taekwondo club down the road would come to our club to try our style, and get smashed by middle ranking people from our club.

I would reccomend wing chung kung-fu as well (or gung fu), it is good for building hand speed, power and reflexes. If you have previous experience in the arts read some of Bruce Lees books on training for speed and power, his art is quite good, it sort of moulds to suit the individual.

And please dont anyone start having a go that Bruce Lee is shit and its all acting or something, because his art has some very good ideas and techniques. As he once said, be like water, water can creep, or flow or crash, yet it cannot be hurt. What he was saying there was basically to be highly flexible and supple, be quick and strike like a whip, but be able to adapt to differnt situations.

cutefix

April 12th, 2003, 12:26 AM

Martial arts technique, hmnn.
In real life situation the effectivity of a martial art lies the quality of training and discipline that the individual acquires.
There is not a really good yardstick for a perfect martial art only its how you apply the techique effectively in a life threatening situation.
What ever you see on these no holds barred shows on the UFC etc, is unrealistic in real life.You do not grapple and lie there for minutes dealing an assailant.Street combat is done in a matter of several seconds(if delivered effectively) not in several minutes that the likes of Shamrock , Taktarov,Gracie,etc, do in the ring.

DIM MAK and other forms of effective Chinese fighting arts take years to develop under the guidance of a qualified instructor.
Its effectivity lies is the proper use of internal power in the attack and the precise knowledge of a couple of hundred pressure points in the human anatomy,and the time that this pressure points are very vulnerable.
Most books on dim mak do not show the complete (detailed)list of these vulnerable parts of the anatomy;nor emphasize the detailed effect in the body if attacked precisely.Only a well qualified teacher can do that to a deserving pupil.
Therefore I do not believe the propaganda that these so called "death touch" manuals promise to their readers.
You must be familiar with the acupuncture principle as that is how the effectivity of true death touch is somewhat related to it.And that can be learned effectively also under good tutoring (not reading).
Just reading a detailed book about these exotic arts will not make you a master in it. It requires extensive years of training .If you start young and is really talented, you can acquire good fighting skill within at least a decade.
That is if you are gained the full trust of your master and have trained for at least 8 hours religuously everyday since from the start.A major part of the difficulty is the culture and harnessing of chi and effective use in combat.
If you start training in the early teens up to adult it is preferable also that you abstain from sex for at least 6 years (including masturbation)during training (especially critical in the development of chi) as that will deplete your "jing" which a major part part in the development of internal power.Once you know how to circulate your chi troughout your body as well as use it properly in combat then its the time you start playing again with women or your dick.But once youve done your training ,you will be constantly reminded by the clause of moderation ( as emphasized by your instructor)in any of these matters of sexual gratification.
These technique in internal kung fu as elaborated in the well known arts of tai chi,pakua, hsing-yi ,chi-kung,etc. requires at least the same time of rigourous training under a good instructor in order to be profecient in it in combat.Many people gain satisfactory fighting skill on it after fifteen to twenty years of training.
Meanwhile aikido which can be considered an internal art but does not emphasize on these pressure points in the same extent as the aforemmentioned chinese arts.You can be effective in self defense (in a lesser time ).

If you want to focus really on dim mak you must first train in chin-na (pressure point kung fu)which is akin to the techniques that is used in jujitsu and aikido but in a more varied ,profound and subtle in manner.
Meanwhile all these other external arts like karate, taekwando ,muay thai,etc, mostly use external energy.Therefore it takes less time to gain proficiency in it.It is more practical to learn for most people who does not have the time , patience and dedication that many internal martial art demands.And therefore practically suitable for training for ordinary street fighting and self defense.
Although the technique may look fast to most people its is really slow process if compared to the instantaneous mind control(willed) pulse of internal energy (in the internal martial arts)that travel from the tan tien in the abdomen traversing the energy channels of the human body until it reaches the extremities i.e, finger tips (dim mak) and open hand ( ex. true iron palm).
This is also related to the principle that the late Bruce lee emphasized in his jeet kune do training and even wing chun kung fu.
Although wing chun and jeet are not pure soft arts but a combination hard/soft technique.
It looks slow but( really is fast) because the arms and fingers are relaxed( which muscles are not taut at the start but until the last moment in delivery) allowing the fast flow of internal energy when the mind is focused on it.
The principle he used in his three inch and one inch punch is an example of the application of internal power.
In contrast the power that a pakua or taichi palm if delivered is so subtle. It looks so soft,even feel soft,but hit hard and the effect is devastating that you can be lifted of the ground (if hit by their gentle strike ) and thrown out by several feet.The hand used in that strike can be described appropriately as like iron heavily wrapped in cotton. :cool:

[ April 11, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: cutefix ]

Spudkilla

April 12th, 2003, 02:40 AM

I took Tae Kwon Do for a while, not to learn how to fight, but to learn how to control my temper :) I learned how to do some different kicks and stuff, and I think I made it to green belt before I gave it up. I don't know if it would help in a fight, but the staff who worked there would put on a choreagraphed show of one person fighting at least five others, and totally beating there asses :D Tae Kwon Do did help my temper, and now I don't beat the shit out of people in hockey anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Rhadon

April 12th, 2003, 08:08 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What ever you see on these no holds barred shows on the UFC etc, is unrealistic in real life.<hr /></blockquote>Of course that's true to some extent. Because a) there is hatred in a street fight, b) there are no rules in a street fight and c) it is highly unlikely that two highly skilled fighters meet each other in a street fight.

Since rules are indispensable for the protection of the fighters' health, I assume that the UFC nevertheless gives you fights which are as close to reality as possible so that they can still be carried out on an official event.

EDIT: But I wouldn't go as far as to call it completely unrealistic because of that.

[ April 12, 2003, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]

Agent Blak

April 12th, 2003, 03:45 PM

I have done various forms over the years. I took what I need and liked and shed what I didn't like or did find practical.

I also grew up with a twin brother so i always had someone the same size to fight with.

My favorite systems are Muay Thai and Bujinkan TiaJutsu(Ninjutsu). I found that Tiajutsu lacked in striking, but the grapples, bodymovement, and multiple attackers was good. Also it teaches you improvisation of weapons. Thia had a nice development of speed in strikes and movement.

I comine those with research I do in to other styles, Preasure point, etc.

The style has to suit you and a belt level means nothing. I got into it with a guy in high school who was high ranking in judo. I used a nerve attack and had his one side of his face contorted with tears streming down out of that eye.

photonic

April 12th, 2003, 04:25 PM

cutefix: You really believe in all that chi stuff? I don't really know that much about it but it doesn't seem too practical/plausible really.

I tend to think that what can be quickly obtained and most practical is the best. i.e. You're not too likely to meet Bruce Lee or some eastern kung fu master in a bar fight. I do think that not handling multiple attackers is a shortcoming of jiu-jitsu, but all of the fights I've been in were one on one for the most part. Also, at my place of training, they train you in no gi(sp?) jiu-jitsu and apply it to real life situations.

On a sidenote, if you guys want to exchange files my backup-backup forum FTP is available to everyone at the moment. Most people from here don't upload anything they just leech. So, anyone who is willing to give files is greatly appreciated.
The username is: eaw
the Password is: amj537wr3
Host: sensorystatic.com or <a href="http://www.sensorystatic.com" target="_blank">www.sensorystatic.com</a>

cutefix

April 12th, 2003, 09:59 PM

Photonic,It is is not about belief;it is a fact.But you have to experience it in order to know it. :p
Unfortunately many martial art practitiomer do not really care about it.
When I was practicing since childhood the different arts from shorin ryu ,then to shotokan and wado ryu karate. I also scorned about these so called internal energy as described in some chinese martial arts.
Up to my teens I was so overconfident that having acquired skill through the years I can easily beat anybody.I even won medals and trophies in karate tournaments.
But the time comes when an unknown(in a skill challenge) sent me flying several feet away with just a tap of his hand on my body and I was dazed for several minutes and confused what hit me so hard;(I did not notice much movement from my opponent) but I feel sore and I could hardly move from its effect.
Fortunately that same guy(who beat me) used his hands and fingers to massage and press various points in my body that led to gradually regain my strength and mobility.I was also forced to drink a vile tasting stuff that led me to complete recovery.
He said if I was not massaged will not drink that ill tasting stuff I will die in a matter of few months due to internal injury.
When I asked somebody knowledgeable what is it that hit me; it was an example of dim mak delivered by an expert of internal martial art.
That was an overwhelming experience and the beginning of time that I became serious about this chi stuff and realize how effective and dangerous is it if applied in martial art competition.
You will never know the strike if its coming to you,it is so subtle like you are just being parried or stroked until the last moment when the chi is released instantaneously.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[ April 12, 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: cutefix ]

cutefix

April 12th, 2003, 10:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Of course that's true to some extent. Because a) there is hatred in a street fight, <hr /></blockquote>In my experience I do not think so.If your nerves are rattled by your opponent (due to hatred)you will likely have difficulty in defending your self properly.It is better think of it as just one of your sparring sessions.And you are not worried of anything at all.
A truly capable street fighter reacts by reflex and not by premeditation.
You never use your mind voluntarily and think that I will punch him and kick him hard in such a way.
The adrenalin rush can even decieve your mind that you can beat the bully easily.That is far from truth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
You will just notice that your hands and feet looks like have the mind of their own when the parry the attackes and deliver the blows to your assailant.It is really a spontaneous action.
However if you are lacking skill (or a beginner of martial art training)you might even pose in a karate stance and wait for your opponent to strike.It is likely in that situation if the opponent know you know some martial arts will use stealth and treachery to beat you surely. All you need to pose in order to defend yourself you should be sure that its looks like you are standing there but very much prepared for action.
Further if there is a chance its better to run away than face likely combat.Avoiding a fight is much better than facing it.
There is a truth to a saying, even practiced by highly skilled martial artist that "Cowardice is the highest form of courage". :cool:
It is very important(if its unavoidable) in street combat to be relaxed (which is very difficult for most people exposed in a life threatening situation) but it is the prime requirement in order that you can defend yourself effectively.
Forget all those stuff you see in the movies they are not true in real life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Rhadon

April 12th, 2003, 11:55 PM

Photonic: The site doesn't allow resuming, right? I cannot upload 2 x 700 MB without resuming, so uploading the UFC video is impossible unless you are able to allow me to resume uploads.

Edit: I just tried it out, resuming doesn't work.

[ April 12, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]

Anthony

April 13th, 2003, 01:29 PM

cutefix, whilst I believe that very hard blows can be delivered with seemingly little effort and movement from the one striking, I have to draw the line at nasty broth and magic touches curing fatal internal injuries.

I realise this isn't on topic, but I'm a half believer in chi. I don't think it's "magic" at all, simply very efficient and effective use of the body's natural power.

Let us not forget the story of the monk who believed that the power of his chi made him bullet proof! :)

jelly

April 14th, 2003, 12:19 PM

A trained thug can knock you out with his first punch in less than
a tenth of a second. Due to your "reaction time" you can't react
before you are KO.
Most fights on streets and in pubs take just a few seconds.

So it's irrelevant to know how to react with karate, kick boxing
or whatever; you have to know how to avoid the first blow of an attacker.

Since most fights are ritual fights, it may be good to know some of these
"rituals".

I recommend Geoff Thompson's books "Dead Or Alive - The Choice Is Yours"
and "Watch My Back: A Bouncer's Story".

From a book cover: "...having witnessed thousands of confrontations
(and survived a few hundred) in his work as a barroom bouncer,
Geoff Thompson knows firsthand what violence is really like. He knows
that self-defense is primarily about avoiding violent situations and
that the best techniques in the world are of little value if you are
rendered immobile by fear or indecision...".

OCR'ed sample... online for just a few days:

Attackers And Their Rituals (http://jelly146.tripod.com/rituals) :)

Anthony

April 15th, 2003, 03:24 PM

I dissagree, although the fist may only travel for 1/10 sec, your average person does a poor job of hiding the "wind up" to the punch. It's possible to know it's coming before their fist even starts heading in your direction.

A chi master could probably see it coming from the look in/movement of their eyes :)

cutefix

April 16th, 2003, 12:30 AM

"I realise this isn't on topic, but I'm a half believer in chi. I don't think it's "magic" at all, simply very efficient and effective use of the body's natural power.

Let us not forget the story of the monk who believed that the power of his chi made him bullet proof"

Well everyone is entiltled to his opinion.
Again I say that only experience can make you realize the truth about it.
Which I think its unlikely for a person of your kind.I doubt if you ever care to practice martial arts;you may run or (if you have, pull a gun or brandish a knife) if you are confronted with an unexpected combat situation.
But supposing you are a dabbler in combative arts you cannot never realized the deeper aspects of their training nor ever open to ideas which are then substantiated by your later experience(usually painful).
If you were in my case you will cry hard to be brought to the hospital immediately instead of pondering what hit you with such devastating effect with miniimal body movement from your opponent.
Another thing is chi power is not meant to be used to stop bullets. You need kevlar for that.
If you remember the historical Boxers Rebellion in the early 1900''s a lot of chinese fighters who were expert in various martial arts were felled by bullets.
On the other hand how can you explain exhibitions by these martial arts experts who are able to allow their body to be hit with sharp objects without even hurting them.
What is your plausible explanation for that ?
You think that their body is genetically modified to be as hard as rhinocerous hide?:p

photonic

April 16th, 2003, 12:55 AM

Tuatara

April 16th, 2003, 02:00 AM

Here's my 2c ! I practised Tai Chi for a while - (I loved it, got to find me a local instructor). While initally focussed on personal well being, it does evolve into a fighting style. That includes a number of weapons, from a simple stick (bo) to swords and the like. I had a friend who was rather acomplished, who would wear his leather jacket in the rougher parts of the city just for the fun of taking down the thugs who would try to mug him! The nice thing about Tai Chi is that the movements become so ingrained that the concious mind is not required to respond to a strike. One of the women in my class got attacked and found herself automatically breaking her attackers grip with a movement from the form we'd been learning. Tai Chi does not require strength - you do not block, you deflect. I have an inkling of the Chi cutefix is on about, the same principle applies in Tai Chi. It may be a Jedi mind trick, but there is something to it. One of the more interesting tests for my first badge involved standing still for 30 minutes with arms extended as if holding a large ball. The first 5 mins is hard, unitl you learn to draw the pain away from your arms and ground it out through your feet.
I know it sounds like total kook, but it works.

cutefix

April 16th, 2003, 02:32 AM

cutefix: Can you yourself use this chi stuff? If so, how long did it take you? I tend to agree with anthony. I think it probably exists but I don't think it's any supernatural Final Fantasy type gaia(sp?) stuff. Not that you said it was. How hard is it to find a dim mak instructor? Also, what is the most that you've heard of somebody doing with this? I watch a lot of anime so this subject fascinates me.

Photonic, After the years in karate ,I shifted to chinese boxing and did practice chi kung exercises to cultivate chi.I have already spent already 10 years in internal arts training under my instructor and I can feel during my training there is tingling flow of energy that start from my abdomen region(tan tien) until it reach my finger tips.
In later tai chi practice I can already feel that chi is flowing in my body and even in pushing hand exercises my opponent can feel the energy of my hands which I cannot feel from my partner.The result of this training is that Even during sparring with my friends they note that my hitting power is much different than before.They always don some sort of martial arts body armor duing full contact sparring with me which I do not care about wearing myself.I can seem to take their full strikes to my body with less pain(unlike before).
However my mentor istill nsist it takes more years to be profecient in it in applications.
Regarding dim mak, I asked this to my instructor before. He does not talk want about it but I queeried some senior students .I did learn many information and even seen some demonstration from these people that corroborated with my painful experience earlier.I was expained the techniques and pirinciples but unless you are precisely taught about it you can not learn muich by hearing,or watching it being done.
It is only exactly taught to the close door disciples(the most senior of the students who have been with the teacher for so many years that they are even considered already like members of his own family.Usually this art is reserved to their family members and not to outsiders.
When I inquired from other chinese oriented combat arts It took me lot of effort and research that indeed it is part of the training which is reserved to the highest level .Many of these chinese arts such as white crane,hung gar, preying mantis, choy li fut etc. have versions of it.
In addition as part of the training you must learn to cure the effects of the death touch yourself.As the master himself will hit you in that deadly manner and you must know how to cure if you recognize you are a victim of it.If you know how to hurt anybody severly you must know how to cure it as well.
A knowledge of chinese medicine such as acupuncture , moxibustion,exotic herbs,preparaiton of medicine .proper dosages etc. is part of the curicullum as their are many strike that cannot be reveresed with pure pressure point massage.That reminds me of the bad tasting liquid I drank in my experience.
But if you train in chin na (or like chinese jujitsu and aikido) the nerve points of attack are emphazised so its more easiler to learn the basic techinique there.But unless you cultivate your chi fiirst you will not be effective in delivering it either.
Again its the instructor prerogative if he think you are worrth teaching or not and most of the time they will sedom part with this closely guarded secret.As it is extremely dangerous if the technique falls to wrong hands.
That is why this keep me wondering the type of dim mak that they are writing in the books and selling to the public.
Further when this topic about death touch is brought .It was related (in martial art circles)that the late Bruce lee died of delayed result of dim nak strike that he previously got from a competition with another martial artist.

Rhadon

April 16th, 2003, 10:22 AM

Photonic: I have already prepared the upload to Ctrl_C's FTP. I dropped a note on this in the Forum FTP thread, and since no-one got angry about it and I'm unable to edit the post, I will just upload it there. Later on, I can still upload it to your FTP. I will be absent for a few days, though, so be patient.

Anthony

April 16th, 2003, 02:54 PM

"If you were in my case you will cry hard to be brought to the hospital immediately"

I certainly do not disagree with you! But that's it, I would want proper medical care, if I had injury to my internal organs.

An exception would be if a blow to the chest had interupted my diaphragm. Or possibly fibrilation of the heart. Then contact in the correct areas and fashion can save you.

Ditto for herbs and stuff. I don't doubt (some) herbal medicenes, good for fevers, headaches, infections, the shits etc. But herbs won't heal a ruptured spleen or reinflate a collapsed lung...

"how can you explain exhibitions by these martial arts experts who are able to allow their body to be hit with sharp objects without even hurting them.
What is your plausible explanation for that ?"

Similar to the explanation for people who can lie on a bed of nails. It's tough skin, lots of practice, a high tolerance of pain and in many cases, tricks.

The human body can be amazingly strong, like a toilet roll tube can support the weight of a man, if the load it applied properly.

If Chi can stop a sharp implement penetrating, why not a bullet?

Your description of holding the "ball" reminds me of marathon runners. Mind over body. We can all do it to some extent, I expect martial artists to be much better though. Pain is only an electrical impulse, to be "immune" to it, you just need to block or ignore it.

Your experience of being resistant to blows IMO shows a high level of control of your body. You have a high tolerance of pain, and exact muscle tension at the correct moments may be what causes the blows to not harm you.

cutefix

April 16th, 2003, 11:41 PM

“Ditto for herbs and stuff. I don't doubt (some) herbal medicenes, good for fevers, headaches, infections, the shits etc. But herbs won't heal a ruptured spleen or reinflate a collapsed lung...”

The thing that makes it difficult to understand in contemporary medicine is that they discount the traditional medicine(such as for example , acupuncture) that corrects first the energy flow within your system before the treat the resulting injuries from the energy blockage. Which in the latter in many cases are secondary in importance as can repair by itself gradually, specially if you took the required medicine for its remedy.
And the concept of injury according to modern medicine is incomplete, as it view the body partially not holistically.
In many cases the subtle type of injury that dim mak can inflect on the body can be undetectable by methods of modern medicine but can be seen by methods of traditional medicine.
BTW,The herbs drink that I took was for that purpose of correcting the energy blockage that is dangerous if left unattended that can surely manifest later as serious organ damage which can led to my demise.
Indeed it is very difficult to explain this principle of cure according to the terms of modern medicine basing on the ordinary idea of what a human body is; but it is a reality as I have experienced it .

“Similar to the explanation for people who can lie on a bed of nails. It's tough skin, lots of practice, a high tolerance of pain and in many cases, tricks.”

I knew closely some people who are adept in chi kung who can allow their body to be pierced with blades( but is impervious to it). I have managed to touch their skin and its is soft as the normal person.In fact it can still be wounded,(bruised,or cut) if they do not concentrate their chi on it. Therefore I do not believe that they have tough hides.
Indeed it can be considered “seasoned” and stronger than the normal person skin due to constant practice in that particular techique but if you feel and look at it closely ,it is still a normal skin.
A certain practitioner of yoga whom I met years back follow the same principle that they can lie in the bed of nails because of the same technique,i.e., mind control of the prana(hindu term for Chi).
There is also a related chi kung techique that you can make your body lighter by proper breathing and focusing of chi.In fact you can step on a frail porcelain cup or plate and it can support you.But once you stop the chi control (while you are standing on it still ) the bowl will break under your feet.
IIRC I have seen an example of it in TV a few times some years back in Ripley’s Believe it or not.
In the same way if you are skilled this lightness kung fu you can comfortably lie on a bed of nails .
I think the right word is, not tricks but correct technique which is perfected through several years of training.

“If Chi can stop a sharp implement penetrating, why not a bullet?”

I have read some literatures about this technique of iron hide(which was formerly a Shaolin temple specialty,) which is also considered a chi kung technique. But it emphasized there that it cannot stop a bullet or even in some cases other bladed missiles (such as spear or arrow).
I also asked this question previously to an expert of chi kung why the boxers rebellion fighters were killed by bullets if many of them were said to be invulnerable to bladed weapons. He said that is beyond the limits that the chi can protect the human body no matter how well trained you are.

This holding the ball technique as explained by Tuatara is one method of cultivating and focusing Chi. It is in fact a standard training technique in Tai chi chuan practice, in combination with the posture exercises(e.g.,you stand on one tai chi posture such as for example called Wu chi for hours )coupled with correct breathing techniques. It is an effective Taoist method of chi development.

Anthony

April 17th, 2003, 03:09 PM

We obviously have very different opinions so I'll leave it be now - save to say one thing ;)

Some of the things you mention would be quantitively measurable. E.g making yourself considerably lighter. The power of thought being able to reduce physical mass is something that contravenes my sense of logic. But can the performance be done on a set of scales? It would certainly prove it, or not.

photonic

April 17th, 2003, 07:58 PM

The reason people can lie on a bed of nails is that the nails are close enough together to support the weight of the person. If the nails are spaced too far apart, they will penetrate the skin. I imagine similar explanations for all of this chi stuff exist as well. All of this chi stuff cutefix has explained conflicts with my reason as well. However, I still to believe most of it is possible. There's plenty of stuff out there I can't explain. Cutefix, how well may one cultivate their chi without an instructor? Also, does any of this require sitting in front of a fat golden guy chanting "OM" ? No sarcasm intended.

cutefix

April 17th, 2003, 11:29 PM

"Some of the things you mention would be quantitively measurable. E.g making yourself considerably lighter. The power of thought being able to reduce physical mass is something that contravenes my sense of logic. But can the performance be done on a set of scales? It would certainly prove it, or not"
Indeed it is illogical but again most modern thinking is like this. considering things they cannot explain as non existent. . Unless you experience something so unbelievable and its is very hard to fathom the mystery with our conventional way of thinking. But if you insist in in looking for a way to understtand it, in the end you will find alternative explanation(from people with more experience and knowledge on this matters) .
Incidintally that explanation contravenes your standard way of thinking about things ;but if that different perspective will bring light to the mystery, but you still cannot accept it, then the problem is with your mind not with that reality you experienced.
This the same as chi ,modern science barely recognize it.But does it make a difference if people who have masterered can produce astonishing feats with it?
The knowledge about it is as ancient as civilization ,but most modern man refuse to accept it as real. Because they cannot find in their closed mind a suitable explanation for it.
THis rigid and narrow logical approach was the same way that aristototle arrive to the conclusion that the earth is flat.

I have been scoffed a few times by some of my peers in the professional world about what they call a radical explanation in things that they cannot explain .I told them to experience it and judge for themselves the truth about it .
If it trancends logic ,does it means does it does not exist?
When one skeptiic was challenged and deligently trained in chi cultivation and experienced its benefit, when asked to explain it , he was confused and cannot say anything ,nor have logical way to describe the experience. But did not regret his decision to learn and practice it anyway as it dramatically improved his health and well being.

Regarding that idea of lightness kung fu there was a televised example of that performed several years ago by a chinese expert who was also practicing tradiitional chinese medicine, as shown also in Ripleys that show him standing on a piece of newspaper (streched between benches or chairs ) and the paper did not even tear. IIRC,His assistant who did the the same , tore a big hole though it.It is the same principle being done in fragile china ware.
Indeed I have never seen a weighing scale used in it but try to use phyics and calculate the effort and ( even weight) needed to maintain the posture without tearing the paper or breaking the chinaware.
Regarding the question of photonic in the cultivation of chi without and instructor there are some books that teaches that but I have never tried it so I cannot vouch if by literature learning you can do it.
I only succeeded under close instruction by a good teacher.
The major prerequisite in its training is patience and self discipline.If you have it then find a capable teacher to guide you and you will succeed.

MoToMaStR

April 20th, 2003, 08:46 PM

I'v trained with real ring boxing since I was 13. Most dudes wouldnt dare fuck with the mean looking tattoo covered freak with 20" biceps for obvious reasons. For the most part, boxers know how to take a hit and I believe are a bit tougher than a good percentage of the hard-asses out there. Boxing, like other "arts" emphesizes on landing your hits HARD, and fast, exactly where you wanted them to go, BUT..... the weight training we go through, combined with the massive step in that are put into an already over-powered punch would seriously fuck you up regaurdless where it caught you. ESPECIALLY bare knuckles. Even if your opponent coverd up,.. and you hit their arm, your quite likely to give them a nice visit to the hospital for busted raius/ulma.
Last fight i was in, was in, was in the airplane hangar at my school. We were playing hockey, this fool came at me with a raised stick so i grabbed the stick and gave him a full right cross in the cheek and caved in his orbital (with my hockey gloves on btw). and that was that.
:p :p :p
Although, no martial art teaches you dodge bullets. :p
:p :p :p

zambozan

October 10th, 2004, 02:22 PM

Hallo man,
I've replyed your post not for any offence, but for an osservation.
I'm a boxer too, and I know that if a man is covered, hit is shoulder can't
make it to go at hospital.
We're hitting a medium-body men that is covered, not a child....
How previously sayed, doesn't exist the best martial art, is the praticer that
can be the best. This is sayed after noticed that the martial art praticed is complete, which includes hand,kick and grappling techniques based on studies.

Thanks for reading this post!

Joeychemist

October 11th, 2004, 05:26 PM

Even if your opponent covered up,.. And you hit their arm, your quite likely to give them a nice visit to the hospital for busted raius/ulma.

You said you have experience boxing, so picture this you're fighting me and you're covering up pretty good; now let’s say I hit you as hard as I can with let’s say 10 onzce gloves in the shoulder. If I hit you hard enough in the right spot I could dis-locate you're shoulder no problem. Now let’s say I hit you in the jaw, nose or ribs. Now a punch will break those bones much easier than other bones in the human body, but for you to break someone’s arm in a boxing match, while there covered up, with gloves on, well that would take one hell of a punch. It is possible to break someone’s arm with a punch but highly unlikely that it would in fact break the bone.

But even if you didn't break it. It still sucks getting punched in the arm. I’ve had bruises on my arms that hurt like hell, and if you are in a fight and you're opponent is covering up, it’s always a good idea to work the body and arms, even if you don't break they're bones, accumulative punches will always slow an opponent down.

Isotoxin

October 16th, 2004, 12:21 AM

All this chi stuff is a bit off the wall to me. Even if it is true it dosn't matter much. Out of all the people you will ever meet and fight the number that know how to do this stuff will be very small to equal zero. A CCW permit with some training along with some martial arts and sit awarness will be all it takes in 99.99 percent of fights.

mixojoe

November 8th, 2004, 03:09 AM

No Martial Arts is the best lol. A lot depends on who is learning it an d how they apply it. The ancient ones are very powerful because they have usually been battle tested lol. Chi/Ki is very powerful! and I have seen amazing things!!!

FireFly

November 8th, 2004, 04:24 PM

...no martial art teaches you dodge bullets.

;) Exactly, too little time to trade punches when there are many more ways of dealing with such problems.

mixojoe

November 9th, 2004, 09:26 PM

FireFly

November 9th, 2004, 10:49 PM

lol dodging bullets :D Many people these days favour grappling arts. Mainly because most fights end up in a grappling position.
Against a gun....if they are out of arms length then you are in trouble, if within and under certain circumstances then they are in big trouble lol

Most fights do end up on the ground at one point or another, so I must agree grappling may be quite a benefit. I was taking Brazilian jujitsu as grappling and Muy Thai kick boxing for stand up. It was and is fun to spar with some friends, though in a real fight I still think most learned martial arts will have many flaws, and your best bet is to take up other means to get the job done, before the opponent takes these means upon himself.

Joeychemist

November 10th, 2004, 05:08 AM

;) Exactly, too little time to trade punches when there are many more ways of dealing with such problems.

This is half true, If you’re involved in a confrontation with one or many opponents and you’re country dose not permit it’s citizens to carry weapons you have to be able to somewhat defend yourself. Just being trained in one of the fighting styles mentioned throughout this thread helps and teaches you how to cover up so you don’t take an even worse beating.

If you're out of town and someone (there’s always that one person) wants to pick a fight. At least if you have some training you're not as likely to get you're head smashed wide open.

NO ONE fighting style is better than the other, each style is just a small part of the larger package. It’s all about the MMA (mixed martial arts). The best fighter is the one who is most skilled in all fighting styles.

badmilk

November 15th, 2004, 10:11 PM

I've actually taken a few martial arts (tae kwon doe) (kenpo) (muay thai) and I have found muay thai to be the most effective for real life combat, just my two cents...

mixojoe

November 22nd, 2004, 04:03 AM

Muay Thai is the sledge hammer approach to combat and very effective. You get used to full contact striking and being struck. But i prefer ancient battlefield Martial Arts myself for the techniques and traditions

jackhammer

November 28th, 2004, 02:46 PM

I've done martial arts for over 30 years, and have been teaching combat martial arts for over 10. First of all, to all those who talk about tai chi and other soft styles and the amazing feats performed by the masters of those style, you ever notice how old they are? It takes years and years of dedication to be able to do anything (other than improving health, which, as someone said, is a great advantage). This is all well and good, if you are really interested in martial arts, but not if you simply wish to know how to fight or defend yourself. Another thing: all the aspects of dim mak (in cantonese) or Dian Xue (mandarin) or other wonderful aspects of Shaolin Chin Na (muscle and tendon grabbing, pressure points, joint locks, sealing the breath, etc) are very very cool, and can be useful, but again take years and years to practice and master. I have met several people who could do amazing (and quite painful) things to me while I was standing still, but couldn't seem to pull them off on the mat.
I agree that people should cross train, studying each style for 2 years or more, if all they desire is fighting proficiency. But more important, I believe, is how you train. There is an old army saying, "train like you fight" and it is true for martial arts as well. You can refine you techniques best by having the snot kicked out of you by someone better, bigger, and stronger. That way you refine your techniques, and learn what does and does not work. I always spar full contact no-holds barred. My sparring club likes to mix things up as well by doing things like adding weapons (mostly wooden practice weapons, but I've used real knives many times, mostly so that my wife can shake her head at me when I come back bloodied), picking unfair matches (2-3, 1-3 2-1), giving one opponent a weapon and none to the other, etc. I think the most important thing is to be able to use your training in an actual combat situation. In other words, every time a real combat situation occurs, your reaction (flight, fight, or freeze) must be fight. That it the main reason we teach and train in martial arts in the military special operations forces. Very few SEALs, Rangers, Special Forces, etc, actually ever need to use deadly hand-to-hand combat techniques. It very rarely even comes down to knives, or even side arms. However, what hand-to-hand combat training does do is reinforce the "killing" mode, to ensure a soldier or sailer will pull the trigger. There are other reasons for this training, of course, but I believe this is the biggest.
As to which styles to train in, I personally would recommend a combination of traditional aiki-jujitsu or jujitsu, brazilian jujitsu, muay thai, and if you like dim mak and that sort of thing, a wu su style with a lot of chin na (eagle claw, wing chun, etc.) Somebody mentioned krav maga, which is a great scientifically-based broken down combat stlye, but it has drawbacks. The major draw back is the styles design: it is designed to be used against armed combatants, originally mostly gun toting. However, it is a simple and effective approach to combat. That is, until you get to the advanced stage they teach Israeli special forces (Shayetet 13, Sayeret Duvdevan, Mat'kal, and Egoz, Tzanhanin, Maglan, and units Rotem Gideonim, Yoav, Yagal, nad Yamam), which can include all sorts of things, like garrot training and other special techniques. If it is difficult to find a muay thai school, you can substitute with tae kwon do, tang soo do, American kickboxing, or even karate (go for kenpo or shotokan). If you can't find a traditional jujitsu dojo, go for aikido, judo, or hapkido (which was also mentioned previously, and is a Korean jujitsu, just as tae kwon do is the Korean version of karate). If you can't find a brazilian jujitsu school, go with wrestling. Hope this helps some.
__________________
-Something is going to fall like rain, and it won't be flowers
-If hindsight is 20/20, why won't my eyes work?

Gollum

June 9th, 2006, 11:02 PM

Judo and Muay Thai kickboxing are probably the best combination of martial arts if you need to learn to defend yourself quickly. With about 3 months of training in both 2 or 3 times per week for 2 hours per session you will be ready to defend yourself out in the real world.

I definately recommend adding some close combatives training to your repetoire, or some kind of old school jujutsu from Japan, you need to learn that for your anti-weapons training. Alternatively you could look at kali or escrima for your anti weapons training. Your biggest threat in a fight is facing a knife. Knives are way more dangerous than guns in close fights.

But first learn about throwing people and punching/kicking them.

Jacks Complete

June 11th, 2006, 07:36 AM

Remember, whatever you decide to do, make sure you do it.

When push comes to shove, have a rote of twenty five cunning moves isn't going to help you if the guy throws a punch as an uppercut rather than a haymaker, or just pushes you over so his mates can dance on your head.

In the UK, you will be provoked, and attacked by those who are out for a laugh at the victims expense. They will happily kick you to death. By the logic of the chav, you deserve it for getting blood on his shoes when he is kicking your teeth down your throat. Always assume there are two more round the corner, at least, if you are targeted by one. Also assume you are on camera! Let them push you or whatever first, then put them down in one.

If your martial art won't teach you to put the average pikey down in one swift move, forget it. Aikido arm locks are not what you want here, you want a throw (Yes, an akido one is fine!) or a push. Don't even consider a grapple, you will be kicked and stabbed by his mates. You need him down and preferably out before his mates arrive 20 seconds later, and you need to be on your feet. Also, don't do more than one follow-up, as if they are trying to "happy slap" you, that video will end up on the internet or with the police. Last thing you want is a jail term for defending yourself.

It is as much about the fighters mindset as anything else. I'm not big, but I've faced down a lot of bigger guys than me. I know I can kill them, and everyone they know, and get away with it. This (probably) helps.

underMan

June 11th, 2006, 08:21 PM

Saw a video of dim-mak. The guy was total bs and it just makes the art look like bs. I also dont believe in magical warfare type nonsense..

Muay thai and Jiu jitsu? Well go no further.. Maybe look into aikido, if you find a very good master for that than go for it, but jiu jitsu and muay thai is unbeatable especially combined. I train muay thai, plan to getting into aikido or jiu jitsu in the future. Ive heard of these military styles dunno if theyre effective, but they sound like they want efficiency only, dunno how you can get more efficient than muay thai tho. Never seen a style better than muay thai, just look to the professional fighters, none of them do fancy kung fu style stuff. Getting into knife fighting is fun too, just buy a rubber knife, and learn to handle that from books and stuff. Im sure theres some cool style out there that fights knife and sword fighting into it. But if you want to defend yourself i suggest the glock.

-Jacks Complete - My friend told me of 'happy slapping' what the heck is that? Some weird english tradition? Also theres a camera on like every corner down there huh?>

EDIT: So youre saying some guy sent you flying many feet from a tap huh? And i guess most people are not allowed to learn such a skill because theyll get power hungry or whatever? Sounds like a huge load just to get people to come and pay big moolah for nothing.

nbk2000

June 11th, 2006, 11:26 PM

A can of wasp spray and a zippo lighter would be adequate deterrent to almost any stupidity.

A shot to the face to blind them, then flick the lighter on and make the point of lighting 'em up if they persist.

Martial arts are a waste of time against a group. While you're busy dicking around with one fellow, the others get you in the back.

Even one of the Gracie's got beat down by a group of thugs in brazil. And if this guy can get beat down, anyone can.

Jacks Complete

June 12th, 2006, 05:59 AM

EDIT: So youre saying some guy sent you flying many feet from a tap huh? And i guess most people are not allowed to learn such a skill because theyll get power hungry or whatever? Sounds like a huge load just to get people to come and pay big moolah for nothing.Who said that? Seriously, though, aikedo teaches many ways to do that. Most aren't suitable for the street, though.

"Happy Slapping" is from, originally, a TV show where they put on big fake foam hands and slapped each other from ambush, or something, while recording it for the TV show. Of course, once the chavs got fancy phones that could record, they started do the same. In packs and alone. So some guy comes out of nowhere and decks you, for his mates to laugh at, while they film it. It sadly now refers to pretty much any random violence for fun, including kicking someone to death.

Of course, sometimes an alert person spots it and does something... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Pe6-QAWOs&search=happy%20slap Note that 95% of the YouTube vids are rubbish, fake or spoofs if you look down the list of search results. This one seems real.

Gollum

June 13th, 2006, 03:48 AM

The gracies are a joke. Their martial art is a waste of time. No serious martial art involves deliberately taking attackers to the ground to fight them. Not only that but their collective ego is huge, they attract negative attention and violence.

Good martial arts teach you how to deal effectively with multiple attackers. You don't always have to fight multiple people to defeat multiple people. A martial art could teach you how to demoralize a group by targeting an individual then doing something so violent it shocks the rest into fleeing, i.e. cutting someones throat open and twisting their head off, slicing through the skin of their face, etc.. That's all very dramatic but if you're in enough danger to have to do it, go for it. Of course there will be severe legal reprecussions, but again, if you're doing it you'll probably be able to prove it was necessary.

Pepper spray has a very high rate of failure. It also takes longer to get out a can of pepper spray than it does to simply throw them onto their neck (which will kill or paralyze them, and is a very common throw in all Japanese jujutsu styles). As for blowtorching them, well it's an interesting and amusing idea but as someone with experience in the security industry I don't feel it's very practical. That is to say I don't feel it's practical at all, and will more likely provoke your attackers into escalating the situation.

Truth be told it is very easy to hurt someone quickly with simple jujutsu / judo throws. You can grab someones arm, break it then break their neck and have them on the ground all in one or two movements in under 2 seconds. It's not difficult to do once you've practiced.

I have worked in the security industry for several years (and I don't mean security in the rent-a-cop way) and that's my opinion.. I will say that I can personally throw someone using only a finger or two, it's not all that difficult, it just requires the right timing and situation. Usually that stuff is just for parlor tricks and amusing friends. The real stuff is about breaking arms and legs and moving on to the next person dumb enough to attack you.

If you spend some time learning how to do it, you would be amazed and shocked at some of the things you learn. I personally do not understand why all good citizens don't learn a martial art, it would reduce violent crime exponentially. If you spend some real effort learning a good martial art like judo or jujutsu, you will see it's very strong for fighting. Those moves were picked from the best in the most violent time and location on the planet, 1500's Japan. Those guys fought a lot better than your average street punk does now. That ought to speak for something.

Check emule or edonkey for mike swain's judo fundamentals tapes. Learn about standing throws and chokes. Chokes are very very useful. Make sure to get proper instruction in them before attempting them, you could kill someone accidentally pretty quick if you screw up.

nbk2000

June 13th, 2006, 07:02 AM

Fire makes a wonderful weapon.

Back in '00, someone tried climbing in through the window of the bathroom at a motel I was staying at, where some of the untermensch tenants disliked me.

I lit his head on fire with a pocket dragon. He fell screaming back out the window and ran away leaving a trail of smoke from his burnt hair behind him.

:D

Nobody else said shit to me about anything after that.

Someone who'll happily burn someone to death (given the chance) is not the kind of person you fuck with on a casual basis.

Beat someone down, and they might come back with a shitload of friends, or guns, to get even.

Set one of fire and he'll be in no condition for revenge, and his friends will only come at you with guns, if they get the courage to do so, which is what they were going to do anyways. Otherwise, they'll be too scared to try you, 'cause you've already proved you're insanely dangerous. :)

Alexires

June 13th, 2006, 09:53 AM

Personally, I've done Wing Chun Kung Fu for 3 years, and just started ninjutsu a few months ago.

For someone wanting to get good quickly (4 months or less), neither of these martial arts are for you. I have found that doing another martial art before ninjutsu helped improve the speed that I've learnt at.

Ninjutsu trains with hands and feet (strikes, blocks, grappling, chokes, breaks and control techniques), knives (strikes, blocks, breaks and control), swords (strikes, blocks and control), 6 foot staff (strikes, blocks), short staff (think walking stick. Strikes, blocks, breaks, chokes and control) and at our dojo we also train in shuriken and go out for a shoot at the local archery place every now and again.

I've heard it often said that most street fights end up on the ground. So, learning to defend yourself on the ground would be a valued skill.

If the choice is between taking a few down before they get you, or cowering in fear before they get you, which would you choose? Personally, I'd take a few with me in the quickest and most brutal fashion possible.

Still, nothing wrong with carrying a little fly spray, or motorbike chain lube and a jet lighter.

Every little bit helps.

WMD

June 13th, 2006, 03:04 PM

Martial Arts the way they are taught today aren't geared towards real life combat. IMHO the way to go is combatives, WW2 style. To quote Jim Grover, a combatives teacher "Martial Arts is something you do with someone, combatives is something you do to someone". The basic techniques can be found in classics like "Get tough!" or "Kill or get killed", available online. Add "Put'em down, take'em out" for some good knife work.

What's just as important is putting this stuff in a real life context. This means being aware of your surroundings, spotting trouble before it happens. This also means training to fight when you're hit, confused, under low light conditions and so pumped up and aggressive that you're hit with tunnel vision and have too much adrenaline to perform flashy complicated martial arts moves.

And you need to know when you're seriously outclassed and be prepared to run away as fast as you can. If you're inside a building you know the exits, right? Marc 'Animal' MacYoung deals a lot with stuff like that.

Oh, and weapons of any kind will help you a lot :)

mil&co

June 13th, 2006, 03:45 PM

In most situations, it is best to avoid a fight. But there's no way you can run away when surrounded by a group.

*In case of a group fight: Don't take the fight to the ground. While you are on top of one of them, the others will be landing their feet on your head. Trying to isolate one of them, taking him out, and moving to the next one is the way to go.

Train yourself in taking a man down as quickly as you can, practice in kicking on the knees, punching in the solar plexus and other weak points. Make sure the man you knocked out will not be doing anything for the next 30 minutes. Be mercyless, strike first and strike fast. You can't win a fight with honor, you either win or you loose.

Most of these techniques can be tought by taking thay-boxing classes. Also a good thing to do is learning the weak points of the human body.

*Fighting one to one is a different story, when there is no chance of anyone jumping in you can take the fight to the ground. Practice choce-holds and clambs. And when you're in controll (on top), finish it quickly.

In the latter type of fight BJJ might come in handy, aswell as the lowkicks of thayboxing for taking your opponent to the ground.

*Weapons are allways handy in a fight, you could use allmost anything that is solid or pointy, think about loose bricks, pens, a keychain, keys, an folded newspaper, etc. Being licenced to carry a gun can't do any harm either.
Anything as long as it gives you the advantage above the opponent.

But be aware of knife-fights, ones you're in, you will sure as hell won't come out without being cut (even if you yourself have a knife too). No matter how long you've trained in disarming a man with a knife, you won't run into those standard-situations out on the streets. Best option is to run.

Another point of attention is to take off your T-shirt before a fight, you don't want it to be pulled over your head, blocking your view and limiting your strike area.

When you run into a fair fight, you didn't prepare well enough;)

akinrog

June 14th, 2006, 12:06 AM

While I'm not trained in any martial arts, from the experience I can tell one of the best starter methods in a street fight against a group of punks is to first get your back to the wall, if you cannot make your run, of course :D.

Of course this will lead your entrapment but it shall also ensure that nobody can get behind you.

I don't know how the situation is in Western countries, but in my case, I used to provoke the group to engage a manly fight. Pick one and tell him you want him and it should be a manly fight (one against one).

In many cases, the group touched by the manly pride did not interfere the fight and this worked out properly. But if the group consists of total punks who have no dignity then you are ruined. Regards.

Corona

June 14th, 2006, 03:16 AM

The martial arts itself doesn't matter as long as you are trained in hitting solid targets (heavy bag, makiwara, etc). You have to train "full contact". When you kick or punch, the target should tremble with shock and should MOVE.

500 punches on a lightly padded target daily (500 with each hand). 500 kicks on same target. And 25 to 50 pushups on your front two knuckles. They will turn black and ugly, but what the hell....

This is a makiwara. Useful as hell. Or use a heavy bag... just don't fill it with sawdust (it will compact one humid day and break your hand).

http://www.ctr.usf.edu/shotokan/makiwara.html

I can promise you, you'll cause some heavy damage. I knocked out a guy with a light tap to the eyebrow. He just switched off and went down without a sound.

If you're into watching videos, try and get Geoff Thompson's "Fence" and "3 second fighter". Pure common sense.

Frosty14

June 14th, 2006, 10:32 PM

I don't believe in any one martial art being better than another. Each as it's good point and it's bad point. Also one must take in their own personal capabilities. From there choose a defense system that they can make use of.
USE
In my experience most poeple will not put much time into training once they reach a certain level, therefore your chosen system must be able to be learned quickly and be able to be retained easily.
PARAGRAPHS
Most LEO sytems are of this latter catagory.

BlackFalcoN

June 21st, 2006, 07:18 PM

If you're into watching videos, try and get Geoff Thompson's "Fence" and "3 second fighter". Pure common sense.

I have Geoff Thompson's "The Fence" and the "Real Punching" volume 1-3 and "Throws & Takedowns-Greco-Roman wrestling" in my collection.

If somebody is really interested in them I can upload them. (but given the large size of the data, I will need to upload them off-site, which will take me some effort and a couple of days)

Edit: I will also have "3 second Fighter" within a couple of days

cutefix

June 24th, 2006, 07:59 AM

Edit: So youre saying some guy sent you flying many feet from a tap huh? And i guess most people are not allowed to learn such a skill because theyll get power hungry or whatever? Sounds like a huge load just to get people to come and pay big moolah for nothing.

Indeed it’s difficult to understand that what looks to be like a slight tap can throw a person several feet away. That is the realm of internal martial arts and can take decades to master even under a qualified teacher.
That technique difficult to explain to people initiated in the hard arts( external martial arts like karate, muay thai, tae kwon do, etc. where brute strength is the basis) and who have never understood (nor experienced) the merits of properly cultivated internal power.

This kind internal energy is also exploited in the deliver of the of the more subtle dim mak technique.
BTW some external form of kung fu like Hung Gar and Choy li Fut have their form of dim mak but still its difficult to master....

The internal martial arts is not for everybody as the discipline in the cultivation of internal energy takes more effort and qualified guidance starting on how to channel that kind of subtle energy to enable it circulate throughout your body and how to focus it during the delivery of a blow.

nbk2000

June 24th, 2006, 08:54 AM

Use the Force, Luke!

:rolleyes:

Chi = The Force, and is just as make believe. Physics are the explaination for why things happen, not some 3,000 year old 'magical' Chi. Magic is the explaination used by primitives who don't have the science to explain what they see.

Though Chii (http://006.tenkuu.net/006/art/oldart/chii-atashi2.jpg) is cute. :)

Jacks Complete

June 24th, 2006, 11:14 AM

If you want to see how it works(?) here is a Kung Fu master who spent one year learning the one inch punch. Keep watching, though.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LvdktwS-byg&search=derren%20brown%20punch

cutefix

June 24th, 2006, 05:34 PM

Chi = The Force, and is just as make believe. Physics are the explaination for why things happen, not some 3,000 year old 'magical' Chi. Magic is the explaination used by primitives who don't have the science to explain what they see

LOL! I doubt about that…physical science cannot completely explain in physical terms the manifestation of internal energy that emanates from a skilled internal martial arts practitioner delivery of a blow
Physics?......try to explain that by Newtons law of motion and see if you can make sense of it!:)

If you want to see how it works(?) here is a Kung Fu master who spent one year learning the one inch punch. Keep watching, though.

That is a nice movie…
But…
A year to do the trick? That’s rubbish!
Try it for your self and see if you can generate that kind of focused energy in a years time.
,. The average time of consistent practice for a martial arts practitioner to achieve that is about 5 years…. not one year and that requires competent guidance from a good teacher..
. But if you already started with a good foundation in Chinese boxing( that takes many years) and you want to practice short range striking techniques later and you got a fancy for the one inch punch, it can be achieved in a shorter time!
….Besides a wing chun style is not a true internal martial art but more of an external one, but just like any Chinese martial arts as the practitioner acquires skill, mind training follows and that is what is given emphasis. You are trained to think as you practice that the blow that you deliver does not come from you limbs but right from your mind!

Any other Chinese martial arts that was derived from Shaolin such as, Iron Palm, Hung Gar, Fut Ga, choy li fut, white crane style , preying mantis ,plum flower etc follow the same mindset.
BTW
White Crane and the Praying mantis has a technique called the ‘iron needle’ that when an opponents is hit , feel like a long needle has pierced deep into his body and causing great pain, but actually it’s an instantaneous blow focused by the mind on a narrow area of fingertips in the cranes or mantis strike expert.

Meanwhile
The other master in that film exhibited a genuine manifestation of internal power by allowing the student to feel for himself the internal energy as he moved his hand deftly.

That is the real manifestation of internal power ,,or Chi!

Now NBK try to explain that phenomena with your physics!

akinrog

June 24th, 2006, 06:08 PM

Now NBK try to explain that phenomena with your physics!

On Discovery channel, a documentary showed that if the person struck by that psychological blow, does not believe the chi etc., then he is simply uneffected by that blow.

Even those masters who are claimed to master that thecnique could not demonstrated its effectiveness on the host of the documentary.

I don't know for sure, but the technique seems to be a psychological suggestion technique. Since the recipient believes (or is suggested to believe) that s/he shall receive that blow, s/he is struck by the blow. Regards.

cutefix

June 25th, 2006, 01:09 AM

On Discovery channel, a documentary showed that if the person struck by that psychological blow, does not believe the chi etc., then he is simply uneffected by that blow.

Even those masters who are claimed to master that thecnique could not demonstrated its effectiveness on the host of the documentary.

If you say an unbeliever knocked several feet away by the short range striking techniques and still disbelieving..?:p
I have been in the vicinity of those instances when skeptical karate fighters who frowns on internal martial arts learned the lesson the hard and painful way:cool: :p
A simple tap on their chest lifted them a few feet from the ground and thrown them against the wall.

Take note the noted 'crushing hand' of the hsing i fist ( a form or internal martial art) have killed many opponents. Do you know how long to develop that skill under a competent guidance and strict discipline...? a minimum of ten years.!
Not the best way to learn martial art for self defense.:p

You cannot see any external damage of that particular fist except the slight purple patch in the skin but the internal organs are severely damaged leading to severe trauma that usually led to death....

Another ..the pakua palm( another form of internal martial art) is as equally deadly in the hands of competent practioner...:) How long does it takes to master that under competent tutellage ,,, around fifteen years for the talented ones.. and more or twice for others

Therefore these internal arts are not the best martial arts for practical purposes because they are difficult to master and requires more dedication in practice.
And that is one reason why some masters would prefer to feign incompetence than to severely injure a skeptic in exhibitions.
They have acquired wisdom in their training and does not need any show off ( like most of the external arts do) .
One of the outgrowth of internal martial art training is the cultivation of the mind that usually improve their character tremendously . They more the practice their deadly craft the more careful they are about in using it .
They more they are patient with people than us as they realize the deep responsibility with having those lethal skill.

The really good masters would not exhibit it.

Its hard to find an internal martial arts expert in ultimate fighting contest.;)

akinrog

June 25th, 2006, 01:53 AM

If you say an unbeliever knocked several feet away by the short range striking techniques and still disbelieving..?:p
I have been in the vicinity of those instances when skeptical karate fighters who frowns on internal martial arts learned the lesson the hard and painful way:cool: :p
A simple tap on their chest lifted them a few feet from the ground and thrown them against the wall.

I'm referring to psychological type of punching, i.e. punching with chi without any contact. Of course those who are practicing martial arts for several years shall be strong to kick someone's ass. However in the documentary there was a master who claimed to punch people without touching them and the presenter was not affected by the imaginary blow. If the master would really hit him, the scene would certainly be different. Regards

Corona

June 25th, 2006, 03:42 AM

Jack.... about the video.... This has to be a trick surely? I've wasted many many years of my life doing Bando (heavy duty Burmese Karate... like Thai Boxing) and can put out a candle with that one-inch punch. That isn't a big deal.

But hitting someone without touching him??? I have neither ever seen this nor have I heard of it before. I would love to be on the receiving end of this guy's non-touch punch.

The strangest thing that I have seen in the Martial arts, is an ESP.... a kind of "spidey sense" and a lot more.... like pure mind reading. I found that fascinating. And I've seen it happen many times.

Gollum

June 25th, 2006, 05:14 AM

Knocking people out without touching them is a load of shit. It's simply not real, the people in those videos have been conditioned to react to the fake punches. There's a video on bullshido.net of some stupid bastard who blasted 'chi-balls' at a judo practicioner. Of course when nothing happened the judo guy kicked his ass.

The 6th sense thing is very real however, almost everyone has experienced it at some point in their life.. Usually just attributed to gut instinct, or some similar thing. Some people can selectively turn that instinct on and off to save themselves in dangerous situations. Mind reading itself is bullshit, but extreme sensitivity to emotional changes is real and is used by certain martial artists, as well as other civilian / law enforcement professions.

nbk2000

June 25th, 2006, 08:23 AM

Cutefix has found religion in the form of Chi.

No amount of argument or proof to the contrary can sway a true believer of ANY religion from their monomania.

Christians still believe the world is only 6,000 years old. :rolleyes:

cutefix

June 25th, 2006, 03:59 PM

originally qouted by akinrog
I'm referring to psychological type of punching, i.e. punching with chi without any contact.

A three inch or a one inch punch means that the distance between the start of the punch and the point of contact is three and one inch respectively.An external martial artist after years of practice and proper mindset have learned to channel his energies and to relax his muscles can generate tremendous instantaneous energy focused at the fist to enable him to attain a high speed short range punch.
. But punching people with out actually touching them is not common even in internal martial arts .
I corroborate I am a skeptic with that as well

cutefix

June 25th, 2006, 04:10 PM

But hitting someone without touching him??? I have neither ever seen this nor have I heard of it before. I would love to be on the receiving end of this guy's non-touch punch.

Knocking people out without touching them is a load of shit. It's simply not real, the people in those videos have been conditioned to react to the fake punches. There's a video on bullshido.net of some stupid bastard who blasted 'chi-balls' at a judo practicioner. Of course when nothing happened the judo guy kicked his ass

Its not 6th sense...
A practitioner or chi kung or qigong can focus his internal energy and can be used to massage or to allow the chi or the patient to flow harmoniously by waving his hand close to the body of that particular person. It is also called pranic healing by some Indian practitioner
We westerners usually frown on such exotic form medicine but it really works.
There is no magic in it, Unfortunately modern science cannot comprehend that as its not within their realm of their scientific understanding.

There is no magic in it ,,,,but as I have not seen somebody use it for offensive purposes so I am also kinda skeptical about it....although I had talked with some skilled internal martial artist who claims their masters can do it.

But the principle remains the same....

cutefix

June 25th, 2006, 04:16 PM

Originally qouted by NBK
Cutefix has found religion in the form of Chi.

No amount of argument or proof to the contrary can sway a true believer of ANY religion from their monomania.

Christians still believe the world is only 6,000 years old

Its not a belief nor a religion..but a fact...but as you never had any actual experience or training along that line.. I understand your skepticism...

Go on ....wallow in your pleasure of doubt!

Cobalt.45

June 25th, 2006, 11:08 PM

Regarding that idea of lightness kung fu there was a televised example of that performed several years ago by a chinese expert who was also practicing tradiitional chinese medicine, as shown also in Ripleys that show him standing on a piece of newspaper (streched between benches or chairs ) and the paper did not even tear. IIRC,His assistant who did the the same , tore a big hole though it.It is the same principle being done in fragile china ware.

Your "internal martial art" is really, really weak. Your word and a Ripleys Believe It Or Not show or two does not a believer make.

If this was in any way proven or quantifiable, you would not be able to keep the masses of wanna-be's from joining their neighborhood internal MA clinic, there would be untold numbers of people exploiting the concept, and not least of all, the government (ours and all others) would exploit it, too.

The fact is it's not a fact. Deal with it.

nbk2000

June 26th, 2006, 12:04 AM

I'll put my Gun-Fu, Bomb-Fu, and Poison-Fu to the test against your inner-chi power anytime Cutefix! :)

cutefix

June 26th, 2006, 01:50 AM

Your "internal martial art" is really, really weak. Your word and a Ripleys Believe It Or Not show or two does not a believer make.

Look here cobalt
The primary weakness here lies in the people who have never experienced it.that out of envy wants to denigrate it to justify their skepticism.:p

In this particular case
The difference between reality and illusion is relative to the person...the observer and the doer.
The observer after seeing the phenomena tried to ascribe some form of reason to make it comprehensible to his limited mindset.
Unfortunately he cannot totally grasp the strangeness that it defies his reasoning power and accumulated experience and knowledge.:p

Therefore his immediate attitude is to denigrate such observation as a form of mumbo jumbo, slight of hand or any fancy trick that his eyes were not able to catch in complete detail nor his brain cannot comprehend.:p

The doer does not care if the observer understand what has been seen by anybody as he actually experienced and really did it!:cool:

Regardless if the observer laughs at him, it does not matter...
As the doer personal experience in that act is an embodiment of truth.:cool:

Eat your heart out cobalt! Content yourself with easy to learn martial arts:p
And by the way don't forget your knives and guns...:p

cutefix

June 26th, 2006, 01:59 AM

I'll put my Gun-Fu, Bomb-Fu, and Poison-Fu to the test against your inner-chi power anytime Cutefix!

NBK... I cannot blame you...IIRC about you....being an ex convict you people mentally lack the discipline and tenacity for martial art training and if offended would immediately look for guns and knives to get even with the antagonist.:p

But its just a pity .:( ..you have the balls for mayhem .:cool: ...the ancient art of ninjutso I think is just right for you...that is if you have the patience and the stomach to train for it!:)
They use guns, all sorts of blades ,even bombs and poisons...just the kind of toys you love to play:cool:

BTW the ninjas have their improvised guns in the past aside from the blow guns, darts and shuriken...and one modern ninjutso practitioner I had met are open minded to using modern guns.

Don't lose hope....

Alexires

June 26th, 2006, 10:05 AM

BTW the ninjas have their improvised guns in the past aside from the blow guns, darts and shuriken...and one modern ninjutso practitioner I had met are open minded to using modern guns.

Your god damn right we are open minded about using modern stuff. Yeah, there is a place for tradition, but we place survival above tradition. Ninjutsu is a good martial art. I won't say its the best (who can?) but it teaches you to think differently. Everything can be a weapon if you look at it in the right light.

Have a little read about the 5th dan black belt test for ninjutsu. I'll leave it up to you to make your own assumptions based upon what you read, but to me its a textbook example of 6th sense if there ever was one.

Corona

June 26th, 2006, 11:03 AM

Ok... now I think I understand why they make us fight in low light conditions. And here I was thinking our Masters were stingy bastards, trying to save on the power bill. ;)

cutefix

June 26th, 2006, 05:22 PM

Everything can be a weapon if you look at it in the right light.

Ninjutso techniques has been borrowed by special forces such as stealth and the use of silent weapons.

The ability to fight in any conditions is another training technique to any special forces soldier in many countries.
The essence of effective offense is to catch your opponent off guard and use that to your advantage:cool:

Regarding sixth sense,, the ability to pre-empt any offensive or danger is valued asset... Great Masters of many martial arts have that keen sensitivity to discern danger and even anticipate the method of attack that the likely opponent may have to use against him.
Often it manifest as hightened sensitivity of hearing and feeling of whatever dangers that lurks around his vicinity.

Ok... now I think I understand why they make us fight in low light conditions. And here I was thinking our Masters were stingy bastards, trying to save on the power bill

Even when we were kids we watch Tv with great enjoyment this blind Samurai Zatoiche slaying an opponent that he can't even see.:cool:

BTW fighting in low light conditions is really part of training program for advanced students in many martial arts.
For example in the advanced class of tai chi where senior students are blindfolded and they have to feel their way and fight with their peers and knock them down.:cool:
That is good in developing effective reflex action.

nbk2000

June 26th, 2006, 10:35 PM

A Dojo of ancient chinese design, warmly lit by beams of summer light, faintly reflected in the dust suspended in the still air.

Seated at one end of the dojo, sipping at a cup of tea is an unimposing figure of slight build, wearing glasses and the long coat of a mandarin.

At the other end is a massively muscled warrior, wearing only the loose pants of his gi, going through his kata routine. The dojo resounds with the powerful hits of his bare feet and fists of fury ;) against the training bag, with puffs of white smoke forming with every hit.

After a few minutes of this, he stops and turns towards the mandarin sipping his tea.

'You dared to claim that my Chi was impotent against your style, but look at you! You can barely lift that cup of tea!'

The mandarian gives just the slightest raising of an eyebrow at this insult.

'You come here while I am grieving for my dead master and claim that you could defeat him?! You are not worthy of even saying his name!'

The mandarian simply continues to sip his tea.

'My master has taught me the secrets of controlling Chi, the force of the universe! I can not be beaten by any mortal man! And if you weren't so feeble, I'd kill you for the insult to my masters teachings!'

By now the mandarin has finished his tea and dabbed his lips with a tissue. Upon finishing:

'Do not worry about me, most estemeed warrior. I have not lived this long without learning a thing or two about true power.'

'Oh, is that so old man? Well I'd like to see this power of yours!' sneers the warrior.

'If you wish the proof of it, stand in the center of the floor and I will meet you there.'

The warrior smirks at the arrogance of the old man as he swaggers to the middle of the floor to await the old fool.

With a low sigh, the mandarian rises and hobbles towards the center of the dojo floor.

After a minute, he reachs the center of the dojo where the warrior stands rigid.

With a slight push, the mandarian topples the mighty warrior onto his back.

The warrior lays on his back with his limbs locked rigid as the years slide off the 'old mans' face, transforming into the face of a much younger man.

'Look at you now. Your chi is impotent against my science.'

'How easily you were lead to do what I wanted you to do by your own prideful arrogance.'

At hearing this, the fallen warriors eyes are both terrified and confused.

'Oh. You're wondering how I defeated you?'

'When I first came here several months ago, disguised as a buddist pilgrim, I rubbed an encapsulated paralytic protein dust on the training bag. Every day when you've hitting it, the dust has been floating in the air where hence you have breathed it in.'

'And when I walked across the dojo floor today, the catalyst that removes the encapsulation from the protein was smeared on the floor from my tabis. As you stood on it with your bare, sweaty feet, the protein that blocks the signals from your brain from going to your muscles, was released from it confining encapsulant, leaving you in the sad state you are in now.'

'I might have been affected myself if I hadn't been sipping the antidote while you were flexing your muscles.'

The warriors eyes flashed at this insult to his manly prowness, but he quickly lost his heat when he realized the humiliating truth of it.

'Oh, and I killed your master the same way. I sent him a letter with the catalyst on it, and greatly enjoyed the reports of his slow withering death. He didn't get the antidote that you'll be getting shortly.'

'So you see, no matter how strong your body, or your belief in Chi, you are impotent against the power of science.'

:)

With that said, a snap of the mandarins fingers summons two very large men, one white, the other black.

'I'd like to introduce you to my servants, Bubba and Tyrone.'

'They'll be getting to know you in a...deeply pornographic fashion...for the next two weeks while you ponder on how I defeated you.'

'At the end of that time, you will have the opportunity of either becoming my servant, or experiencing a further demonstration of the power of science as I command the four forces that bind the Universe to disappear you into the singularity of Hot Electron Death.'

With a nod from the mandarin, the two horny bucks picked up their new toy with eager hands and made for the nearest bedroom, while the mandarin walks around his new dojo, all the while flicking his zippo lighter in anticipation of that nights bonfire.

The End (of Cutefix?)

++++

Anyone want to guess what sentence got cutefix banned?

tdog49

June 26th, 2006, 11:57 PM

Anyone want to guess what sentence got cutefix banned?[/QUOTE]

Ok, I'll bite. Here's my guess:

"NBK... I cannot blame you...IIRC about you....being an ex convict you people mentally lack the discipline and tenacity for martial art training and if offended would immediately look for guns and knives to get even with the antagonist.

But its just a pity . ..you have the balls for mayhem . ...the ancient art of ninjutso I think is just right for you...that is if you have the patience and the stomach to train for it! "

Personal attack????

nbk2000

June 27th, 2006, 02:27 AM

Bingo! We have a weiner. :)

The first sentence is the trigger, yes.

"...being an ex convict you people mentally lack..."

Alexires

June 27th, 2006, 12:29 PM

*grin* Nice situation NBK.

I would put my money on the small unimposing figure being a ninja.

Actually, NBK, I would have say that your mindset is wonderfully built for ingenuity and improvisation. If the chance ever presents itself, I would recommend having a look into ninjutsu.

If nothing else, you could teach them a thing or two about preperation, observation and improvisation. ;)

tdog49

June 28th, 2006, 02:05 AM

Bingo! We have a weiner. :)

Yay!!!

Oh I wish I was an Oscar Meyer weiner...
Then everyone would be in love with me!!!!

Asriel

November 25th, 2007, 04:07 PM

While it can often be an apples to oranges question, for the purposes of self-defense I have more faith in Krav Maga than any other. First off it is very much an inherently practical, function over form kind of art, but it is also developed by the military I trust to good more than any other in the world, the Israelis. Their intelligence and special forces have proven themselves so many times over I have nothing but complete faith in a martial art developed by them.

Defendu

November 25th, 2007, 05:59 PM

omfg krav maga is teh deadly

Obvious fact:
SF units that train to be experts in hand-to-hand and act like "ninjas" wouldn't stand a chance against SF units who train to be experts in gunplay.

Killy

November 26th, 2007, 12:22 AM

Not too much philosophy,
Best martial art = ANY martial art that you are good at, plus some muscle power

Charles Owlen Picket

November 26th, 2007, 10:19 AM

This question is actually a simple one IF the subject matter is looked upon in the light of logic. The best martial art is the WILL to win.
No matter what "style" one is willing to employ; if one has not the WILL to win, it is all for nothing.....

A person with incredible WILL may prevail over those [with skills superior to their's] if the skill is employed in a manner that is not backed up with a superior desire to see the deed to the end. I have personally seen a man who SHOULD have won an altercation whipped big-time by another man with every intention of winning! The former thought himself superior to such a degree that he did not appreciate the intensity of the latter. He thought his ability would see him through to the end.

All aspects of survival are controlled through the brain. I laugh when people speak of "muscle memory"; as if muscle can remember something. The brain remembers....not the muscles of the body. (See "panic mode" and it's effects on "training"; blind repetition does not take over the body after a period of reflexive action has expired and adrenalin has ebbed!)

Think this through and you may agree that it's the WILL to win anything that will see any animal to victory. A water buffalo SHOULD defeat a lion based on strength and ability but such is not always the case... I happens only when the lion has lost the WILL to win.

WWII

November 26th, 2007, 02:37 PM

Obviously, WWII combatives by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate. ( FSA )

mrtnira

December 1st, 2007, 01:48 PM

I bought an original of a book published in Paris in 1944, immediately after liberation and while the war (obviously) was still on. You would imagine it would be filled with great technique rivaling the Kung Fu masters of the Shaolin Temple. It was Jiu Jitsu, by M. Feldenkrais. Was it filled with difficult or fancy techniques? No, it was filled with simple things to include hitting a man with a pry bar ("S" shaped shop or construction tool) as an expedient weapon. Not what we consider ju jutsu today.

In the end, best becomes a relative quality. I took two years of karate in Japan, but my own physical ability by genetics was not as good as others. The same amount of training, and there were some who became overtly much better than myself. Genetics does affect predisposition to certain types of physical activity and relative success in that pursuit. That's why some gymnastic martial arts are best for one person, but not the other; likewise, grappling intensive skill sets are best for some but not for the next man or woman.

After years of working with combatives of many kinds, it comes down to principles of effectiveness for that individual doing the practicing, not a general superiority of a particular school. The individual's ability combined with continued effective training, and the elements of time and chance at the point of employment are significant factors in success, and we tend to judge "best" by success. If your opponent turns out to have the physical skill of Bruce Lee, your odds of being more effective than him may not be high, regardless of what martial art you've been working with.

May I suggest that you enjoy training with men of good character and attitude, and keep on in the pursuit of skill, but don't look too hard for the magic formula. You best option is probably to build a solid skill set of simple responses that can be reflexively conditioned. Here is a link to a short work of direct combat technique from America's Second World War period. The author was an instructor to U.S. naval personnel. The civilian-police version of the training manual was published in 1951. http://www.roughandtumblefighting.com/books/wesbrown/index.htm

Charles Owlen Picket's note above has a lot of truth to it.

Asriel

December 12th, 2007, 10:07 PM

Obvious fact:
SF units that train to be experts in hand-to-hand and act like "ninjas" wouldn't stand a chance against SF units who train to be experts in gunplay.
Besides of course you're childish misquote based off of your own lack of reading capability, you have to remember that no martial art is taught to special forces as a main weapon, it is taught as a last resort in close quarters combat when it is the only other option. So lets leave oversimplification of others ideas to grade school ok?

Aristocles

December 13th, 2007, 12:47 AM

Muscle Memory... just a quick aside

The term is employed very differently in the world of weight training/lifting. Take powerlifting... at one time, I ran in the big leagues of that sport.

We employed the term to mean ~ After a very long layoff- with significant atrophy, loss of much neurological efficiency- as well as the concomitant stength- when training is reintroduced, size and strength as well as neurological efficiency are gained back rapidly, far, far more rapidly than when originally gained. Possibly this notion of MM is a misnomer...

Eastern Europeans as well as Americans, 'sort of' employ this principle in "Strategic Deconditioning" or planned layoffs. It is incorporated into the micro, meso, & macro cycles. Periodization, as it were. Often the "transition phase" is the actual "layoff". So, it's not exactly the same but its principles are.

It is actually profoundly dramatic in one who takes 6-9 months off but the detraining becomes very dramatic with that length of downtime and it begins to be a wash as to just taking a month or two off.

Here an example of what is commonly meant by the term in the powerlifting world:

I became ill and took 6 months off, lost 50 lbs. and went from benching 565 (raw) to benching 400 (raw). In the squat, I went from 920 lbs to 720 lbs. You get the picture... It had taken many years to achieve those lifts. When I began training again, I went from 269 lbs. to 299 lbs. in four months, thus never regaining my prior bw, and hit 580 BP (raw) 725 in a shirt, and a 940 squat, in a meet.

Charles Owlen Picket

December 13th, 2007, 09:45 AM

That's a good Total. I tried it too but I have shit knees and never got a squat worth a shit. I even still have a rack at my home; a nice one....Yea, from a PL standpoint the term is not so foolish as they do "remember" or comeback in a manner that could be said to "remember" what the contractive impulses did previously before a layoff.

But you know what I mean: The guy who says that his arm would simply point the weapon the same way (in a co-ordinated fashion with several factors interwoven) without engaging brain in a combative frenzy and that is simply not the truth. With the majority of things or a complex nature, especially the "shoot / don't shoot" scenarios, the brain MUST partake in the activity.

Aristocles

December 13th, 2007, 02:26 PM

I completely agree Charles, you are quite correct.

It is used in a sort of vernacular manner in powerlifting.

Defendu

December 13th, 2007, 07:03 PM

Besides of course you're childish misquote based off of your own lack of reading capability, you have to remember that no martial art is taught to special forces as a main weapon, it is taught as a last resort in close quarters combat when it is the only other option.

Which means that hand-to-hand is second to last on the special forces priority list. You make my point for me.

Cops, bouncers, felons in prison, and many other civilians in crime ridden areas may see more real hand-to-hand fighting in a month than SF troops see throughout their careers, but the realization of that doesn't do much to slow down the proliferation of the MA industry's bullshit.

Charles Owlen Picket

December 14th, 2007, 09:01 AM

One has only to go to any news stand and peruse a magazine catering to "martial arts" (and try to keep from laughing). The "new something-Asian" the "new something-military": Dear Jesus, that stuff is an industry of total bullshit. And the money to be made is unbelievable.
Anyone could do some MA bullshit program and make a little money with about a $20K start-up. What I would think you'd need is two Asian front people (or an really nice looking Asian gal too). Japanese, Chinese, Thai, it wouldn't matter just so they could play the part.

They would need to be an older guy and a young guy. They young guy should work out but not in front of the public. The older guy should have trouble with his English (even if he's got a MBA from a good school) He would of course be the "Master" and all knowledge would flow from him to the younger guy who would be good at closing deals.....Ohhhh I can see it now. If you have a seductive young lady in a short skirt, so much the better as you could have women's self-defense offered as well. Use a contract basis so as to tie the student into long term commitment (of finances) just like Health Clubs do.

Spatter the walls with bullshit, calligraphy, and weapons. Lease the building by the year, have a changing room but no showers or involved plumbing and you're ready to go. "Martial Arts" are so real....So shrouded in mystery.....

gaussincarnate

December 14th, 2007, 07:37 PM

You forgot the really stupid name, like Master Yamamoto's Freakin' Awesome Karate or Superkwon-do. Nothing says "reputable institution of learning" like adding awesome, super, or ultimate to the title as many times as possible. Then you need some retarded billboard with a drawing of some guy kicking and the sign from the Chinese restaurant, since no one can read Chinese anyway, and only a few more can tell the difference between any of the Asian languages. Trow in a yin-yang on the sign or the door, and the ignorant masses are ripe for the picking. And then when the market for that runs out, you can just put in an overpriced clothes store and sell ripped jeans for a hundred bucks. Sometimes it scares me how easily people can be manipulated.

wertyuiopasdfghjkl

December 28th, 2007, 01:02 PM

What MA is best ? Well, I live in sports-country here. And MA is M-sports until it becomes an art . Here some thought's from me:

First: Fighting is natural. Anything that made it through evolution ever since carnivores appeared on the planet can either run very quickly or fight, often both of it. Take for example a young cat of age 1 or 2 years: Watch it, play with it, and you'll see what fighting can be !
Or have a youtube-look onto a grizzly fight:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=N7vvkloC-Ac

Second: Since you have to practice a lot, it's wise to choose something that can be practiced without ill side-effects to health. Worn-out bone junctions or cardiovascular problems (even Bruce Lee died from a disrupted heart-muscle at age of 31 or 32 while practicing, as well as other world-class sportsmen (sometimes even younger)) are all to common, the first with the lazy and wrong-tutored, the latter with the non-optimally overdoing people.
That sheds some light on how to choose a teacher/master: If he's old, but young-appearing and in good constitution, then chances are his style is not too bad (chances are too he's not gonna teach you if you're wrong in the head, either).

Third: Forget all the military/police etc. styles: They are adopted half-things for making average fighters within the limited education-time of these forces, designed to be not too complicated for even the most stupid of their members. But know the shit that's within their brains, before they unexpectedly do it to you.
If that sort of people is bragging around, let them, they are fools. Wait a few years until they get too old for their sort of sports and see them envy you when they discover to have been on the wrong road all the while. (Is that the just punishment for them ? I dare not judge ...) (And don't teach them anything if they don't deserve it !!). But that envy is what you maybe have to fear too, that's _one_ reason to exercise very hard. But it's not the best reason.

The best reason for doing MA, in my opinion, is the positive effect onto the health (if you do it right).

These were the few thing's I feel I can tell (not abusable) to anyone, even an enemy.

Besides: Sorry for the stupid use-name: I was trying to get something with chief or chef in the name, like chief_of_the_rogues or chef_of_the_rogues, but it wouldn't work: Is the "chief"-word reserved to admin-accounts or what ???

HypocriticalBuddhist

January 2nd, 2008, 02:30 PM

Since a lot of fighting styles are sport oriented these days, I would go with Traditional kung fu or ninjutsu.

Microtek

January 3rd, 2008, 02:34 PM

The problem with styles that do not contain a sport element is that they usually don't do enough competitive sparring. If you don't do that then you won't know for sure what really works against an unwilling, psyched up opponent (until it's too late). Of course, sparring at less than full contact is not ideal either but at least you can train quite often since you don't get injured quite so badly.

Defendu

January 3rd, 2008, 04:46 PM

Forget all the military/police etc. styles: They are adopted half-things for making average fighters within the limited education-time of these forces, designed to be not too complicated for even the most stupid of their members.

Good luck pulling off your overcomplicated MAs if you ever end up in a real balls-to-the-walls fight.

Your fight-or-flight response may not agree with your chi, but at least you'll die having not lowered yourself to studying an art unenlightened by the Confucian wisdom of mythical 5,000 year old martial arts masters.

Man Down Under

January 3rd, 2008, 07:49 PM

The simplest moves are the easiest to remember under stress. Anything that requires 'chi' to perform is doomed to failure.

Wasn't there a long-time member here who got banned for going on some mystic mumbo rant about chi?

Google is da bomb!

This 'Hutchison Effect' is also suspiciously similiar in concept to what I've come to refer to as The Force.

You know...that Jedi ability to manipulate matter by will alone...or as former member Cutefix would say "Manipulate the Chi". :rolleyes:

:D

Charles Owlen Picket

January 4th, 2008, 10:28 AM

When I was a kid we used to say that the best (and most popular) American martial arts were "Mi-Gjun" & "Ie-Sue".... :D :D :D

Grimner

February 17th, 2008, 08:38 PM

Personally I like Chinese Gung Fu by a couple of reason.
1 It has evolved from fighting and been tested.
2 Almost everyone can practice it. Age, gender, strength it doesn't matter the style can be adapted for all needs.
3 Love the weapon training involved;)
4 Everything goes, Like some modern styles there aint no rulez for what you cant do.
Lots more of good reason but those will do for now.
However when it comes to Gung fu make sure its a traditional style and not the modern wushu where its more acrobatic then fighting.

DiablerieBane

February 18th, 2008, 02:09 AM

Again i have a lack of knowledge on specific martial arts, as i take no part in any. But Life and movies have taught me to expect anything. The only way to better protect yourself, in my opinion, is to fight as much as possible. Experience is, and always will remain the best teacher available. I don't deny that being trained in some oddly named martial art helps, but improvisation is equal, if not more effective. Martial arts are taught in a completely controlled environment. Real life situations are hardly controlled. I know of no martial art that teaches one to gouge eyeballs, or crush voice boxes. But if you find yourself in a bus stop late at night, surrounded by 5 angry looking native thugs what will you do? Crouching fucking tiger? Or run away? Or are you going to gouge the mothers eyes out, pop one in your mouth and say "I'm going to eat your fucking hearts" and hope to death they are all scared away.

Anformula

February 19th, 2008, 03:00 PM

This question is what I find interesting about the UFC type events that are becoming so popular. While still subject to some rules, these events do give you a good idea of what fighting styles are actually effective, and what are merely glamorized hollywood dances....

I have seen several fights where a well rounded UFC fighter destroys a fighter with a pure "martial arts" style in a matter of seconds.

Clearly any effective style must include wrestling/ground fighting, and many (perhaps most) "martial arts" do not. Most "real world" fights are going to quickly desolve into a wrestling style scrap....

Aikidokaguy

April 27th, 2008, 06:47 PM

I am an assistant instructor in our Aikido club. Many of our students come from LE fields and include Corrections officers as well as RCMP. With those students we specify primarily in arrest and control procedures and diffusion tactics that work to destabilize balance points and redirect attacking energies in close quarter environments.

I find that too many Aikido clubs focus on these large swinging attacks and grace-induced flowing defenses that practically require a ballroom to facilitate their full utility. I prefer techniques that can be used in a phone booth, or in a closed cell.

The technique of defense must be based upon the attack presented. If the attack is a close quarter small circle technique, with very little commitment, then the defense must mirror that small form like a piece to a jigsaw puzzle. Not matching the attack is a recipe for disaster.

You would love to see the look on the faces of Aikidoka when you defeat their large circle techniques and reverse their tech's quickly and efficiently, and then apply small circle redirections that they have never practiced at resisting or redirecting ;)

phrankinsteyn

April 29th, 2008, 02:36 AM

Most joint locking techniques are good for law dogs (aikido, hapkido, jiu jitsu, etc, etc), especially after they have you handcuffed. They usually do not fight alone, so one can hold you arm as another uses a wrist lock or other joint manipulation technique. In street fighting/hand to hand, from my experience, striking is what counts. Striking to vulnerable points/areas. Wrist's are hard to grab (so are arms and legs if they are moving quickly) and remember if you can grab him he can grab you. Now you have a wrestling match and that then will be decided by the stronger or stronger with better techniques. When you wrestle you are vulnerable to be attacked by others (from behind) and your endurance also comes into play. Then the longer you fight the better the chance the law will become involved. Arrest, court, possible law suit and maybe even revenge because once arrested "bad guy" now knows your name and address :).

No fight should last over a minute. Strikes are what count. Knock him out (if possible) or disable (break bones if possible) and get out of area as fast as possible. The only place for dancing, whether it is a big circle or small circle is a dance floor. Fighting is for real. When you enter a fight you must assume that you may not walk away. Person may us a knife, gun or another weapon of opportunity against you. So hit him first, hit him hard and get the hell out of there.

Just my opinion, take it for what it is worth.

Aikidokaguy

April 29th, 2008, 03:20 AM

Well from my own experience I have had success with many projections on the street as well as immobilizations in relation to attacks from people near bars and parks while walking home either from work or from friends' places.

As for "law dogs" I have had stories relayed to me over the course of my work as an assistant instructor where Officers in the RCMP have actually used the techniques taught in solo situations. Not all domestic calls include backup due to logistics and personnel restraints(budget limitations in considering the call loads in some cities).

I would never limit my repertoire of course and do employ close quarter modified Aiki techs as well as the incorporation of strikes for both Atemi(distraction), destabilization, and for effect(knockouts etc).

The real concern for many students is having to go to the ground in any street defense scenario. While going to the ground may in turn have effect in winning the fight for those who are prepared to fight that battle(we do teach Ne Waza(open ground techs) and Suwari Waza(kneeling techs) along with our standard standing forms) although the problem is obviously being in a seriously vulnerable situation should the assailant have buddies with boots.

Your opinion of course is welcome :)

Barnacles

April 29th, 2008, 04:29 AM

I think basically you should look to UFC for your answer. This is MMA Mixed Martial Arts. You can bring any martial art to the table and a huge amount of them have been. This is the real testing grounds. Personally from watching UFC and personal experience. This has it all, street-fighting, techincal and non-technical striking/boxing, wrestling, submissions, kicking, everything but weapons and hits to the groin or head kicks while on the ground, and those gloves might as well not be there, I have a pair and they dont slow you down a smidge. They are basically to prevent cuts to knuckle and face and blood getting into cuts I presume.

I gather that the best martial arts are(can't give one but will narrow it down, and in no particular order) Boxing or Kick Boxing, Jiu-Jitsu, Muay-Thai, Wrestling/Grappling. These are the dominant ones and seem to be the leaders of each of their respective areas. For striking Boxing Kickboxing, and Muay Thai. For everything else Jiu-jitsu and Wrestling/ Grappling, these are for when you end up on the ground or anything that doesn't involve just straight up striking.

And I will leave you with this , the best fighting quote ever,
"Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face" Mike Tyson

Charles Owlen Picket

April 29th, 2008, 11:21 AM

The older I get the more I love that whole issue of the classical US martial arts: "MY Gun" & "I Sue". And on a serious note I think many people miss the point. But they may have a great awakening if they talked with someone who had to go through the later part of their life with one arm or some other challenge. That "imperfect" person will look at self preservation very differently....

That point being that conflict is NOT some contest. It's conflict (dictionaries have distinct meanings for each). The whole approach is different in many places. The idea is to throw the fuck down a flight of stairs and then kick him to death. Or push him off a railing at a shopping mall, or Jap the fuck while he's taking a piss - pushing a BIC pen in his eye.

I have never thought about the te' ta te' of trading punches & kicks. I think only about HURTING the fuck so unbelievably badly that the question becomes one of if I can get away with it, NOT what "technique" I'm to employ. -=What you never see coming is what you can never stop from harming you.=-

People are rag dolls after you slam their head into a brick wall or use a hammer on their temple. The point is I never am GOING to let them see it. I'm not going to announce my intentions. I would be apologizing right up till the time they get hurt (& hurt SO badly that they have little chance of getting their wits about them for quite some time). This whole discussion is revolving around fighting fairly or at minimum announcing one's intentions - AND THAT'S A MONUMENTAL MISTAKE! It's only in the movies & school yards that people announce their intentions to "put up their dukes".

The situation that becomes a nightmare & the horror of the recovery facility is spawned by dealing with someone who is determined to harm you: not fight with you. The guy who shoots you in the lower lumbar and puts you in a chair for the last part of your life or makes you a drooling vegetable with a claw hammer is not a man of fine physique and constant training. He's a deeply vicious, uncaring threat, who's thinking is directed at hurting you, not challenging you to any contest what-so-ever.

Quote from a friend of some many years ago:
"Experience, cunning, & treachery beat youth, health, & exuberance every time. That's why Generals are old fucks."

-=HeX=-

May 1st, 2008, 01:34 PM

Charles: you got it in one. Nicely said. Within the last week, I have seen 2 fights in school, and have been involved in a third. Now on to the point of saying that: in one, a vicious brute hammered another vicious brute to the ground after being told to put em up. He showed on sign of it, just least in are began punching. It was the traditional school yard scrap.

In the other I saw, the guy tho was being confronted by two others armed with hurls (A bit like hockey sticks, just irish) kept saying sorry and 'he didnt mean it' then kicked one into the other, down a flight of stairs. He didnt show any sign. He didnt do any fancy shit. Just caused serious hurt.

In my case I merely put my foot into the guys inner knee and elbowed him in the nose. He didnt get up for a few minutes.

My point is that martial arts are a waste when the goal is to cause pain, not win points in a sparring contest. Just select the best moves and practice them with a friend, if you really need martial arts.

phrankinsteyn

May 1st, 2008, 10:29 PM

The most important aspect of combat is (I did not state this before and I did not see or read any other post state) having "heart" or the killer instinct as some say. Weapons, be they hands or hand held are no use if you are not willing to go all the way. Even a loaded rifle/pistol is useless if you cannot pull the trigger.

You have to make a moral decision prior to any battles/problems you may encounter.

Can you take a human life if necessary? Many say they can, but when the time comes they can't or if they do and then watching the life , of the enemy/opponent, leave their body will find it horrible and sickening.

Can you, up close, feel a wet knife in your hand? Stabbing someone is like punching someone, you generally have to do "it" many times. That is why you hear or read that someone was stabbed numerous times. Then if you cut or slice them, even to a major artery, they may continue attacking. And again you will (as is said) "get wet" from their blood loss. It is very hard to hold onto someone who is bloody (wet) and then there is the smell of blood in large amounts.

Can you bludgeon someone to death? Again striking them many times. Feeling the blood splatter on you.

If you use a gun/firearm, unless there is a very great distance, you will still have to witness what you have done. The closer you are the more you see.

What if all the things that were stated above were done or attempted to be done to you? How do you believe you would respond?

Any weapon you choose to use you must use it. You cannot hesitate. If you do it may/can be taken from you and then used against you.

As one of Uncle Sam's (former) Misguided Children, I have encountered many hard guy's and "life takers and heart breakers"......... :rolleyes:

To ease out of this subject, I would like to quote John Wayne in The Shootist:
"It is not always being fast or accurate that counts-It's being willing. I found out early in life that most men regardless of cause or need aren't willing, they blink and eye or draw a breath"

Asriel

May 5th, 2008, 11:50 PM

Which means that hand-to-hand is second to last on the special forces priority list. You make my point for me.

Cops, bouncers, felons in prison, and many other civilians in crime ridden areas may see more real hand-to-hand fighting in a month than SF troops see throughout their careers, but the realization of that doesn't do much to slow down the proliferation of the MA industry's bullshit.
Except this is a topic about martials arts, so you're point is irrelevant.

Defendu

May 7th, 2008, 08:17 AM

... so you're point is irrelevant.

I don't lose track of my own point that easily.

Since military units don't do a lot of hand-to-hand combat, their adoption of any system can not be used to "prove" its "deadliness" as Krav Maga marketing drones and WWII combatives zealots would like to think.

If you're looking for a decent method of unarmed self defense, experienced cops, bouncers, prison inmates, and ordinary civilians who've been in real fights are just as relevant, if not more so, than some retard in army fatigues you might have seen in a Black Belt magazine ad.

JouMasep

May 9th, 2008, 10:57 PM

The Best Martial Art?

Firstly, the nature of this question is hugely general; there is no such medium that will be “best” under all circumstances, for every individual, at every stage of his martial art development.

But let me throw in my bit.

I admire aikido; I find judo by far the most enjoyable martial art, I admire also the grace of kung fu, and I have a lot of respect for the high degree of fitness that most of the Muy Thai guys have.

No matter what one takes up, it takes years of practice to become proficient and even if one has great physical ability, the mental aspects are never quickly acquired.

But no matter how well trained, how focussed one can become under tournament or street fight circumstances, or how well one can time one’s delivery, in the end it all comes down to punching and kicking power

And all other factors (amount of training, quality of tuition etc.) being equal, the one thing that will make that punch or kick “the best” or the most devastating is TECHNIQUE!

Without technique, you will never do much damage, and if you can’t duck fast, the other guy will clobber you.

How important is technique really? And what will it get you? Allow me to give some illustrating examples.

Ask that question to a golf pro!

He can start to talk now, and still be at it in a week’s time. The nuances of club and body movement that exist are myriad and they are real, they all matter! No matter how athletic you are, if you don’t know what you are doing your ball will end up no where. The 125 pound weakling with a good technique can drive his ball way beyond where you ever get it –even if you have huge arms and hack at it with your full might.

But that’s where the rub lies, you use your arms only, our weakling uses his entire body, with every part –from toe to top of his head – in a perfect and harmonious way.

Also: E=1/2MV2 ; the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity.

If one can make ones fist travel 20% faster, then the impact will increase by 44%.

If one wields a long whip with one’s arm, it will “crack”. What is this cracking sound, what causes it?

The sound that you hear is the tip of the whip breaking the sound barrier! By using one’s body and arm in the correct, wavelike manner, one can let the extension of that arm reach enormous speeds –but the movement has to be right, otherwise it won’t work.

Lastly: have you ever seen Bruce Lee doing his “one inch” punch?

It works like this: he positions himself in front of his “victim”, he anchors his feet in a typical stance, with his shoulders sort of square (chest parallel with victim) and with his punching arm almost fully straight at the elbow, his fist one inch from the chest of the victim, he delivers a completely incapacitating blow from that very short distance.

At one inch distance! When I saw this the first time, I thought that it would be very, very hard to achieve. But it’s not so bad really, and if you have done it once to a pal’s sternum during some little demonstration, you will be more careful next time. Not that your pal will volunteer in a hurry again. But you have to do it right, otherwise you'll merely give a little push.

I hope you get my drift with my plea for technique.

Now I could try to write a very long story as to how to go about it, but I don’t believe in learning martial arts from the written word. Not that it can’t be done, but it is simply very ineffective.

I will suffice to say this: get the optimal stance, initiate a sort of a “wave” through your body –starting at the feet, this wave pushes the “punching side” of the pelvis forward, the wave continues, almost propelling the punching arm by itself, whilst the other arm is drawn backwards. –do not exaggerate the twisting of the upper body. Think speed, do not force it, -the power comes with the speed, and at he moment of impact drive the fist through the opponent with irresistible force, by which time the entire body is "anchored" to the ground, and the skeleton is aligned in such a way that it is "behind the punch"

I look at this explanation and find it utterly lame, but I'll leave it anyway.

O jah, and please, please know what you are doing in terms of bone-alignment. It is only too easy to break a wrist. (if you really are clueless), but even for the experienced if it’s not perfect and you hit the guy’s head, your hand will shatter from the tremendous force that you can generate this way.

Let me put it like this: I am not very fit –as a boxer is, I do not look huge -like a heavyweight. And under no circumstances would I box one of these guys. (I like my brain the way it is, thank you!). But I reckon I can hit a heavy bag with more impact than quite a few of them. Now before I sound like I am boasting, I have to say that I would not stand much of a chance to even my own weight class, these guys are way too tough and I would not even be allowed to kick. I would end up loosing probably. I respect boxers, and I hate those big, stupid gloves.

I was just taught a superior way of punching and kicking and that is why I punch harder; way harder I’d say

So after having broken my metacarpals three times, I quit hitting people and confine myself to bags and the occasional piece of wood. I don’t do martial art training anymore.

Even if I quit training long ago, it’s a bit like riding a bicycle. A new karate school moved into premises of ours last October (style based on the same that I was taught) I still managed to impress the owner with my kicks.

The karate style I was taught is called shukokai, its founder was sensei Kimura, he is dead; he smoked too much.

But Kimura left us with the legacy of a lifetime devoted to the optimal use of the body, to deliver the ultimate blow. He did succeed in my opinion. His work continues to evolve.

Check it out on the web, and perhaps there is a school not too far away from you.

lwtch32

May 24th, 2008, 06:27 AM

Hi People

I am a newbie here, but this topic is too good to pass up. There have been some exceptional points made so far.

I have pondered this question many times and the answers have always alternated between eclectic and unarmed combat. I have studied JKD Concepts in the past for a while. My training of late has been the solo variety (occasionally meeting with a training group…).

I have come to the conclusion that these days if you want a street effective system (in a civilian context) you have basically two options:

1. MMA
When I first started JKD, I was rather unimpressed with the training since the school favoured a mostly BJJ approach and at the time I thought this was nuts (having seen what happens to someone getting a shoejob on the floor firsthand). Now I think that was rather naive of me. My reasoning here is not to study MMA as a panacea for all things self defense related. MMA will give a good base of striking and grappling, and you can refine this through hard sparring -- you’ll build aggression and confidence in the process too which IMHO is more important in a live situation that any martial arts technique.

However, some things will have to be modified or removed -- like submissions and ground fighting (or at the very least keep ground fighting to a minimum…i.e. train to get off the ground quick). Then you would have to add on support skills like Awareness, assault cues, defensive postures & covers (like the fence), scenario work, conflict cycle, legalities and weapons. A lot of Reality Based trainers are favouring this approach along with the US Army (the Army started its MACP in 2002 I believe).

This approach works, its hardcorps based (no pyjamas or imaginary air opponents in training) and will get you results, however this is a process (i.e. a long term endeavour) and you will have to train and maintain your skills (sadly like everything else in life). I think Geoff Thompson’s unique approach to applying Martial Arts to self defense is probably the best, straight forward and simple solution to the topic of this thread. Geoff has been taking a hardcorps approach (Boxing, Judo, Sambo etc) with his “psychological tweaks” before MMA or UFC ever became popular -- indeed his advice for self-defense is to “learn to hit fucking hard!”

lwtch32

May 26th, 2008, 02:22 AM

RE: The One inch punch

During my Bruce Lee/JKD phase I drilled this technique a lot -- however in sparring it never came out. At the range that you need to use the one inch punch (in a fluid situation) there isn’t much time/room/footing to get the proper mechanics right -- so the Thai elbows usually came out or I would clinch and rain in knee strikes.

I think the one inch punch is a valid technique under static circumstances, like from your Fence, during the interview phase where you are able to set up the strike – still, from that range there better options:

1. Eye jab using the Hammer principal (another great concept from JKD). Since the eye jab (the loose wrist type not the spear type) relies on speed to meet the target the fence provides the perfect vehicle from which to launch it from. Also you don’t need to commit as much of your self to the strike – if the eye jab is successful or at least gets a good flinch from the bad guy, it will buy you and opening from something more powerful as a follow up.

2. An elbow strike to the solar plexus or to the bad guys chin. Again the one-inch punch requires you to launch your fist very close to the target. The elbow IMHO meets this criteria far better and does more damage (coupled with body mechanics it can be devastating). Peter Consterdine does a “Power Elbow” of his fence – where his hand is touching the bad guy’s chest to set up the strike and there is another variation called the “chin blast” (I forget the name of the instructor that advocates this), John Awesome Anderson also does something similar from his fence, except he employs a stiff left hook to the jaw. Personally an elbow to the solar plexus followed by clinch knees have worked for me so ill stick with that.

I think, if you can make the one-inch punch work for you from the fence – assuming your lead hand is close enough to the Bad Guys face/sternum then go for it. Its not that hard once you get the body mechanics down. When I trained this I started off on the bag then got my training partner to hold the strike pad for me. On the bag it had power, on the strike pad it didn’t feel so good -- I assume this was cause we were moving around and trying to hit with power.

NB: If you are looking for sources on the one-inch punch check out Lamar Davis’s website – there is a good article there on execution. Also Earl Montague has a clip and articles on his site called fa-jing punching – he employs similar mechanics (and sometimes a jump!) to get power into the blow.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Further thoughts on the one-inch punch

After a rather lengthy discussion with a JKD mate of mine, I have come to the conclusion that my initial take on the one-inch punch was rather harsh.

My mate re-iterated to me that the punch is not a be-all and end-all technique but rather a training mechanism to teach the student to hit hard from a close distance. This comes from the traditional outlook of most martial arts systems -- one punch one kill. He says its valid and I concur.

PS: Geoff Thompson also advocateds using chi to hit hard from different positions where bodyweight and mechanics are lacking (fighting of the ground/knees/chair/against the wall etc). Personally I think you can hit alot harder if you hit-with-hate -- which is why I prefer the elbow/knee/hammerfist/stomp at close intervals.

PSx2: There is a cool scene in Kill Bill Vol2 where Urma is training the one-inch punch and later uses it to escape the coffin!

nuclearattack

June 4th, 2008, 06:12 AM

the best martial art doesn't exist...it's the "artist" that makes the difference.
anyway there are some kind of martial arts and combat stiles that are better than others.
in my opinion you should look for:

vale tudo, muay thai, brazilian jujitsu, grappling, wing chun.

i study wing chun and i like it very much it is very effective.

JouMasep

June 8th, 2008, 04:28 PM

Naturally my mention of the “One Inch Punch” was not to advocate this as some great combat technique; it was meant to illustrate what can be achieved with proper technique. If you can knock somebody of his socks at that length of fist-travel, how devastating can you be at full movement….

But I very much feel that anyone who wishes to learn how to execute a proper punch / strike uses it as a training aid.
Even if only for the optimization of skeletal alignment and focusing of one’s delivery at moment of impact.
Learn to hit fucking hard. Yep, amen to that. If a style does not completely embrace that principle, toss it.

You’ll get way better physical training and discipline with ballet, and you’ll find that style not good for much else anyway.

Charles Owlen Picket

June 9th, 2008, 11:58 AM

Putting aside all the MA Industry's hype, there are certain characteristics that can be generalized: Using one's weight to punch or using knees or elbows, opening up one's field of vision (watching the center of mass (so as to see the legs knees elbows, etc), & an over-riding desire to HURT the fuck & win, seem primary.

Using methods that make sense and can be used without undue thought & come naturally, having no regard for the damage done (not watching to see what the result of a blow inflicts), & "blind-siding" or sucker-punching the individual when at all possible - make sense. In due course, there are actually not that many times when that is NOT available, IF, one is situationally aware.

Whether or not many fights end up on the floor are examples of the lack of the above. Wrestling generally indicates that the primary initiation had not been debilitating enough to wound to the degree that the opponent has the ability to still grasp with their hands, etc.

To initiate a confrontation to the degree that the opponent does not see it coming allows such simple shit as stepping on the foot of the opponent when making a simple jab to the nose allowing the opponent to fall by stepping on his foot in the 1st place; followed by a knee or kick in the temple or jaw. Slamming a young man's face into a plumbing fixture while he urinates or sticking something (screwdriver) into his midsection while pushing him continually with the handle (driving both of you forward or down) while wiggling the instrument is all very easy, if the shit-head doesn't see it coming.

This all may be accomplished by opening the field of vision up enough so the the focus of the eyes does not rest upon the opponent's face or give away the blow. Many very skilled people still look where they strike (ask anyone who boxed as a youngster). The relaxation of the facial muscles doesn't give away the intent to harm. That intent must be so vicious that the results are not weighed when the decision to initiate is made.

The above is so simple that they are often passed over by money-making operations that place emphasis on the continued involvement of the student in the "company" (gym, Dojo, whatever). Young people are primary targets for such companies due to their belief that some magic exists to enable the skills necessary to harm another. [Myth]

Virtually ANY finger can pull a trigger and most any individual can harm another. It's what's in the brain of both at the time of confrontation that counts. To honestly believe that some answer to being harmed exists beyond awareness & situational factors is to buy into movie making hype & a love affair with the mirror.

### The terminology "STRAPPED" meaning that someone has a weapon on their person comes from the Prison system wherein someone in a wheelchair has access to a sharpened object strapped to a portion of the apparatus. This used to be extremely common due to a wheelchair's construction & the unease with which many people felt searching a wheelchair-bound individual. Those individual OFTEN "did the deed" (when given access to the target) as they simply had both the opportunity and the limitation of the use of their legs presented little problem as the angle of attack could be strengthened by the chair being tough to tip from a sideways angle (they had leverage & upper body strength).

-=HeX=-

June 9th, 2008, 07:38 PM

Watch the US military world war 2 era movie 'Kill or be killed' available on youtube if you search 'roguesci'. It demonstrates how one must just simply 'get stuck in' and kick their head in. Being a student, I often Both see various fights and occasionally participate in them. Always someone has said the basic repartee which seems nesecarry of 'put them up' or some such shite.

This is them trying to hype themselves up. That is where you do the move in another film shown up by that search where one gouges their eyes with the fingers, strikes their chin with the heel of the hand, and knees them in the testicles. Then when they fall you stamp on their neck or head maybe breaking the chin, and run like hell.

In my opinion the rest of the macho bullshit can go to hell. I will fight like a coward because cowards generally survive longer. And if they beat me they will eventually ask, a week later, why they have a biro in the gut and why their face is eating urinal cake from a wet, smelly porclain bowl.

JouMasep

June 14th, 2008, 08:06 AM

Putting aside all the MA Industry's hype, there are certain characteristics that can be generalized: Using one's weight to punch or using knees or elbows, opening up one's field of vision (watching the center of mass (so as to see the legs knees elbows, etc), & an over-riding desire to HURT the fuck & win, seem primary.
I agree that “desire” is of paramount importance –as is also the ability to suspend any empathy for one’s opponent. Without that, any non-psychopath will subconsciously “brake” his technique at the last moment. having no regard for the damage done (not watching to see what the result of a blow inflicts) indeed!

But these two factors are not enough in themselves –except for a few, rare natural talents. And even they can become better with training.

Because let there be no mistake: to merely establish a few basic principles and to then try and incorporate these into one’s techniques will not do a great lot; unfortunately training, repetitions in the tens of thousands, is what builds the kind of speed, power, timing and "instincts" needed to prevail over idiots who will otherwise beat the crap out of you. By the repetitions you gain some mental development, growth that anyone in sport and arts also experiences. Gradually you can do things that did not work at first, and you also begin to see how the technique can be further improved.

You can’t read or talk about it, you have to do it. With that comes the understanding as to what the trained guys were actually talking about in the first place.

On the other hand, it is completely true that many schools / dojo’s have the commercial aspect very much on the forefront –even the good ones. Simply said: they have the desire to make money of you by keeping you enrolled as long as possible, feeding you stuff piecemeal over a very long period of time –whilst most talented guys could absorb most of it in less than 18 months. I have seen very, very good chaps who started at age eleven –so you think that it takes half a lifetime, but then I know of a guy who became even better and stronger in less than two years. (He was not “too bad” to begin with)

I feel that even the good schools could pay more attentions to the finer aspects of technique. Why show the basic idea only, and wait for the trainee to work out much of it for himself over several years. If that trainee has only half a bit of talent -thru intensive training- he could be shown 85% of what he needs to be near damn perfect in 6 months. (More will come naturally with time.)

This point was sort of confirmed once by some previous (not current!) karate tenant. (Piece of Jew crap cost me well over ten G’s US in the end!). The guy offered (also to me) Special “Individual Tuition” at some crazy hourly rates. Why not do it properly in the first place! I was still on good terms then, ‘politely declined. But in honesty, I do reckon I would have learned quite a bit.

If anybody believes that training in martial arts can be dispensed with, I ask: “in what sport is training not required”, and also “how good / mediocre” do you wish to be? If you are superman to begin with, well that’s nice –but for the rest of us…..

The advice not to “signal” where your next (preferably first and last) kick will land is well taken. I myself always keep a bit of a bored look on my face and seem to only stare at the guy’s larynx.

I agree that ending up in grappling is usually a sign that you did not do your strike techniques well enough in the first place. But it can be very useful to have an ability here. Because once you end up there, and all you can do is punch and kick……….

Grappling can be also useful in other ways.

About six weeks ago, I was in a “situation”, ‘was drawn into it, no way out. But a kick or punch was not much of an option. Last year I had something similar happening. And when it did not work out so well for the cockroach, he laid a charge with the cops! I narrowly escaped a criminal conviction. (I still had to spend some time driving the cops crazy by singing loudly in my cell where I spent two nights –horrible waste of time that was.)

So this time (different cockroach), laying on top of him, I put the piece of crap’s neck in an arm-lock, forearm over his larynx. He passed out (never had that happening before!). No marks, no witnesses on his side, his word against mine. I found this an elegant, “least amount of force” solution.

Huh, all this violence!

Let’s all think “happy thoughts” now.

The_Juggler

July 10th, 2008, 09:08 AM

In my opinion, a great martial art to study is Zen Do Kai. It's a freestyle martial art that combines Muay Thai, Kickboxing, and elements of Taekwondo and Juijitsu. I've been going to classes for 2 years now and I've used the techniques a few times, such as arm locks for the occasional drunk wanting to prove that he's better than everyone.

-=HeX=-

July 29th, 2008, 11:54 AM

Why dont we just forget all the shape throwing, pajama wearing bullshit martial arts that exist and instead try to deal with attackers the way we would like to.

Nbk once said to forget kung fu and use chem fu, boom fu, or gun fu instead. Maybe its time we wised up to the fact that the shit we meet on the street is probably armed, and we therefore deal with him on equal terms, that is, armed.

Perhaps its time to Just throw them a chloropicrin bomblet instead of our phones and wallets. Maybe we should throw a flash bomb at them. Maybe spray them with a dragons breath device. The right to walk the streets safely is ours and we should enforce and protect that right with force. Armed force that is.

hickey

August 2nd, 2008, 11:58 PM

Why dont we just forget all the shape throwing, pajama wearing bullshit martial arts that exist and instead try to deal with attackers the way we would like to.

The importance of being prepared and trained in martial arts is that you have a way to defend yourself in unexpected situation such as when a bad guy tries to rob , maim, or just humiliate you….

Experience have proven that no matter how you avoid such fight there are times that you are put in the corner that you have no recourse but to fight back.
And the worst is if you are unarmed and alone.

Would you just accept the maulings which might bring you to the hospital and the worst ,....to your early demise?

Nbk once said to forget kung fu and use chem fu, boom fu, or gun fu instead. Maybe its time we wised up to the fact that the shit we meet on the street is probably armed, and we therefore deal with him on equal terms, that is, armed.

If NBK wants to use weapons etc, its implies that he was not trained in any fighting arts, that his point.,; but to many of us there that have such experience and training we will not just sit there have your self pummeled by a scumbag.
There is a place for weapons but you can’t carry those things everytime; unless you are a bad ass yourself that you want to create some form of mayhem to any hapless guy that you will senselessly carry weapons whenever you go?

BTW
Just a thought for NBK: I am pretty amused what he will do if he will be put in such rare situation being unarmed and have no good fighting skills to boot, and there are bad guys trying to put their hands on him…..:p

phrankinsteyn

August 3rd, 2008, 05:10 PM

This was not told to me so I did not edit it. It was copied from another group on the internet.

It is truthful and practical from some of my own experiences (I did not fight in Korea. I am not that old). :) All humans react different to pain and the sight of blood (especially their own) when they are fighting for there life (It is not TV or the movies) and on the plus side rocks (or some other striking instruments aka a weapon of opportunity) are just about everywhere :).

"I had a very interesting conversation with my grandfather's brother who served in Korea and he said that the only way if you are going right in is to grab the ankles, moving your feet to the side as you grab him with all the momentum. You may not have time to watch where the knife goes.

Do not bend your knees that deep so you can respond quickly on your feet. Your body should act as a lever. He goes down. You stay on your feet. He said it is exactly like taking the high ground.

The another thing he said to never attack the man's arm holding the knife. This goes against every advice and this is from experience. Go for the free arm and get behind him quick and get out your bayonet on your belt and stab him, your blade should be horizonal as you kill him with several knife thrusts. Not just in his back but to the obliques too.

Do not stab aimlessly. Stab with purpose. The first few times he fought with his bayonet, he said he was stabbing aimlessly. Some men went into shock and some did not go into shock until a World War Two soldier told him to memorize the human anatomy diagrams in his mind then see the vital organs, the same way you would see the enemy charging you. He said this helped him survive hand to hand, bayonet and rifle battles in Korea.

If you do not have a bayonet then sweep him off his feet then move out of the knife range as he lands on his stomach he may drop the knife to absorb the fall face forward, not on his back because his knife could drive right back toward your body or face.

Violently attack his neck with a rabbit's blow several times as he goes down, do not waste your time attacking his spine or his ribs. You do not want him to get angry and get up to attack you. He must stay down and use your knee drops, attack him with eye gouges and finally the neck snaps.

The knife may or may not go into his stomach but he must be killed quick because he could get up with shock and anger then go for an all out attack against you.

The same goes with neck snaps, just because his neck was snapped does not mean he is out of the fight. He said this has surprised and terrified many new soldiers in Korea to find they are suddenly fighting a very angry man again, who moments ago was on the ground got up quickly intent on killing him, even if his injuries should have killed him.

He said has seen men who had their eyes gouged still fight with intensity and such ferocity. The fought all the way to the very end. Never let him get the upper hand at all. He will fight you even if his eyes are out.

Do not believe anyone who says they have seen a man's eyes pulled out and he is rendered helpless, in fact he will explode with anger and kill you or the soldier next to him. He said he has seen this in combat.

He said one of the most important things he learned in Korea is when to punch or kick because some punches or kicks will make a man very angry at that moment. You do not want a man to get off the ground very quickly and attack you.

Knowing when to punch or kill is not enough. You must learn what his reactions are likely to be in hand to hand fighting, knife or rifle battles. This is what helped him survive in Korea.

He said that anything in your hand is better than punching or using judo chops. He said bare hand fighting and kicks can really get you killed in the wintertime especially if your hands or feet are frozen.

He said big rocks on the mountain about the size of a football or a little bigger did a much better job than punching or kicking especially when your hands or feet was frozen in snow.

Whenever there was mortar incoming and it hit the snow. There would be rocks you could use to kill the enemy with, that is if one was near to your foxhole. Sometimes you had a foxhole, sometimes you had to lay down in the snow in combat. There was no choice. You had to get used to the cold, Fight or die.

He said he collected rocks with his frozen hands and used them to kill the enemy with. He said that he had enough ammunition by his side but his hands were so sore and frozen that he could not pull the trigger. He had to face mountains and fields of Korean communist soldiers trying to kill him. The rocks were what saved his life.

He said that on several occasions when he tried to give people advice about knife fighting. They did not believe him so he never bothered telling another people, even if they asked for advice.

I showed him the youtube video and he said that will get anybody killed. I am happy I was able to hear it straight from somebody who has really been there because I am getting ready to be deployed pretty soon."

Anformula

August 9th, 2008, 03:50 AM

Nbk once said to forget kung fu and use chem fu, boom fu, or gun fu instead.

Interesting quote, considering that he is now locked up, with no end in sight. Innocent or not, that is serious business....

The central lesson in fighting is never to underestimate your opponent. Another inescapeable lesson I have learned, is that participants in any kind of fight cannot be accurately sized up, and thus the outcome accurately predicted, until the event is over. This is true of fights with hands, knives, guns, wits, whatever. Often the characteristics that prevail have nothing to do with strength, training, or equipment, but are traits that one is either born with or without. A sociopathic personality for example, all else being equal, will prevail in a fight over an opponent with a conscience. Every time. As John Wayne said in "The Shootist": "It isn't always about being fast or even accurate, it's about being willing....." Very, very true.....and it doesn't just apply to gunfights.....

Which leads me to my point. Once past the age of 11, fighting outside the ring is pretty much a no-win proposition. No matter how "bad", well trained, or well armed you are, there is always someone "badder", or more willing. Thus, while you might be intending to dispense a bloody nose, your opponent might be willing to kill. How do you know what you are getting into? Even if you prevail in the fight, there are usually other consequences, be they criminal, civil, physical, or retaliatory.

I know there are circumstances where one must fight, and I am in favor of being as prepared as one can be do deal with situations such as this. When the need is real, one must strike as violently and decisively as possible. But in the real world, this sort of situation is very, very rare. In the real world, the vast majority of fights are not over life, limb, or even property. Most fights are over ego, alcohol, and stupidity. And the consequences can last a lifetime.