Anti-robbery defenses

[nbk2000]

Since before the store was robbed, I've been thinking about weapons that could be used to take out a robber. Mind you, the following is premised on the idea that the robber isn't going to be around to complain, and there's no witnesses. In all actually, such a device would be highly illegal. But this is all theory anyways, right?

One such idea was to use a flying cutter. This is a steel rod (rebar comes to mind) of a few feet in length. The rods run the entire length of the register counter at shin height.

The rods are backed by a thin layer of sheet explosive which, in turn, lays on a massive backing plate of steel embedded in concrete to provide resistance to the backblast.

In theory, when the robber comes up making his demands, the clerk would step on two floor mounted switches. One arms the system, the other fires it. The two switches provide safety against accidential initiation.

When activated, the rods would be propelled intact at great speed at the robbers legs. They would either break his legs and knock him over or, more likely, amputate the legs, literally cutting the robber off at the knees. :D

Either way, the robber is no longer standing, nor in any condition to flee. He's lying on the floor, with two stumps for legs, while the clerk is now free to bean him upside the head with a 10 pound fire extinguisher and drag his bloodied corpse to the dumpster for disposal.

Other idea was to mount short barrelled launchers (12 guage pipe shotguns) in the wall, with the point of aim running parallel to the counter. This launcher is loaded with flechettes. The 2 switch arrangment sets it off, whereby the flechettes proceed to shred anyone standing on the wrong side of the counter...like say a robber standing there with a gun. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Anyways, assuming no legal hassles for such devices (Mad Max/Somalia), what you use? Remember, you can't use your hands for it since the robber will shoot you otherwise. Lethal or not, your choice.

[Mick]

well, the explosive bar thing seems a bit messy and so is the shotgun as well, which means your going to have a fuck load of cleaning up to do. it would probably attract alot of attention from passers by too.

now, a few things you would have to watch out for is if the perp accidently fired his gun when the trap goes into effect(ie. he shoots you).so the best place for taking the perp down may not be at the counter, possibly as he exits would be a better time.

the first thing off the top of my head would be explosivly launched sliding doors.
you stand on 2 floor buttons which turns the system on, then when the doors open it arms the knee hieght sensor beam, and as the perp exits he breaks the beam on the sensor and BLAM! doors fly shut like a horizontal gilutine(sp?). would be pretty messy, be it gave me a smile when i thought about the guy inbetwen the doors so i figured i should jot it down :D .
you could maybe inprove on that idea by putting inflatable air bags on the door edges. so when they fly shut instead of slicing the guy in 2, it would pin him there.

i dunno, i'm just chucking any old idea out.

i've got alot of ideas, but they all seem to be messy and/or loud.

my other idea was 5 single shot guns, mounted so there facing the side of the door closest to the counter. each barrel would actuated by a laser beam(or a narrow beam alarm sensor thing). the 1st barrel would be at the 5ft mark, second at 5ft5, thrid at 6ft, and the forth at 6ft (and 1 sensor would be at each height, for each barrel)
so as the perp runs for the door, he'll break 1 or 4 of the sensors beams(depending on how tall and unlucky he is), and get nailed.
you'd have to space the sensors from the gun barrels so you can account for time delay in firing, and the perps movement.
of course you could simplfy it and just use a shotgun. but shotguns really make a mess.

possibly a pack of smokes could be coverted into a frag grenade, which would be activated when the perp walks out the door. (granted it would be in the same bag as all the money he stole from you, so it depends how much revenge is worth i suppose)

or you go down the local red light district and find some mole with The Aids, and buy some blood off her. then spray the perp with it as he leaves. then run a full page add in the local rag the next day "to the perp he knocked off "X" store. you've got The Aids. suck shit"

yeah, so my ideas suck :D , but its 4am and i'm tired and i've had a crap day(lost my licence) so blah. cya's round.

[Eliteforum]

On the other side of the register, have some sort of metal plate running the length of it, then with the two foot switches idea, they set off a electronic charge.

Sort of like a big stun gun. Only downside would depend on what kind of footware there using.

[A-BOMB]

NBK what about a heavy steel rebar/pipe on a pivot, connected to a post at a 90* angle to the counter and attached to the bar in s large garage door spring. The bar is drawn back and locked into place with a selonoid, the post is set up so the bar when relesed with hit the robber in the back of the knees, as it swings in breaking/dislocating them and pinning them up against the counter. Or you could do the same except on the ceiling so the bar swings down hitting the robber in the back of the neck (breaking it or in the head giving him a concusion/coma/death), and you could put steel stakes on either to add more evilness to it.

[Sparky]

The shotgun idea is good but the problem is (even though you said no laws apply in this discussion) it's messy - hard to hide. Plus, if he's standing in front of you, pointing the gun at you there is a chance the gun will go off (hopefully you're wearing a vest, but still). So, I propose to have the hidden shotgun(s) (cover a large area so it's hard to miss) or claymores go off where the robber is exiting the store. As for the mess, I think the easiest is to make the area easy to clean and have the floor either reversable or have a sheet of exact duplicate (melamime I think - that stuff that's like flexible bathroom tiles but goes down in one single sheet) to put over the old floor or replace the old floor (even extensive scrubbing won't get rid off all the remains). As a less deadly alternative perhaps you could have a spray to incapacitate the robber. Maybe ethyl ether or bear spray (I've heard it's worse than pepper spray). If you used this you would risk him still being able to fire at you, if it didn't work well. To reduce the mess and sound you could use a good flamethrower, as long as he wasn't pointing the gun at you as there would probably be enough time to shoot.

The most realistic is anti robbery systems (and they're even legal!) I've heard of in jewlery stores is double (bullet proof) doors that lock. When the robber is exiting the store with his loot he gets stuck between the doors, where he waits for the police (or gets gassed :D ). This wouldn't work on smart robbers (know about your system) since they would get an accomplice to hold the door (have a hydrolic door closer!) or open both doors before they closed the first. Or they'd go out the back way if there is one. It's also conspicuous and most convenience stores don't have double doors. Instead of this you coul'd have only the one door lock (and sound an alarm at the security headquarters or wherever), and be unlockable until the police came. You might get shot because he would be mad at you, but then he would be up for murder, and almost deffinetly get caught. It's too risky for my liking.

Maybe you could blind the robber with one of those noble gas light pulse devices peope were talking about in a different thread. You'd have to be carefull to close you're eyes and look away. If it was behind you, above you're head it might work but it might damage your hearing (if explosive based instead of spark based) if it was that close, plus he could shoot back.

In the gettos they simply have the cashier behind bulletproof glass. Customers probably don't like this though. You could use this with the single locking door idea. You could have a sheet of lexan positioned so that when the robber is at the door the sheet is between you and them. That way you could flame them / gas them / reach for your gun or whatever with out a real worry of being shot as it would take them time to reposition around the bullet proof glass to shoot you.

[jelly]

Besides the technical things and the robber.... don't forget another important person: the accomplice.
If you kill a criminal and don't know whether there is an accomplice, you probably won't survive the next days.
The accomplice determines the time and place where he takes revenge on you.

To survive in your fictitious example, you should leave the house through a rear exit and search the nearer
surroundings (streets, cars) for an accomplice and eliminate him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[nbk2000]

Any sensible criminal, after seeing his crimie turned into red mist, isn't going to be plotting vengence, but rather figuring out how quickest to save his ass and RUN! :)

I like the electrical idea. Big ground plate...electrode bar overhead...robber conducting 120,000 volts of high tension A/C... :D Though the stink may be a little difficult to get rid of, what with exploded and charred flesh plastered on the walls... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

As a clerk, I appreciate not having to clean up after messy customers. :p

I could see the lights turning off an instant before a blinding flash from a multi-million candlepower xenon flash went off, burning the robbers retineas to a crisp.

Robber:

"AHHH! I cant see!"

*CRACK*..thud

Clerk:

"Yeah, now you can't breath either." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[john_smith]

The explosive propelled bar and claymores are...erm...moronic. It isn't worth the damage these do to the store (just one of these big-ass plate glass windows probably costs more than an average convinience store has in register) and your hearing (may I put my earmuffs on before handing over the money please?). The shotgun is more like it. I'd use a frangible slug, though. Less risk of errant pellets, and if it misses the robber you can at least predict where it ends up. Zip shotguns cost next to nothing, so several can be set up to compensate for the lack of spread.
Btw IMO it would only work on REAL idiots (like the ones NBK encountered :D ). If I were to rob a convinience store (like having just broke out of jail and needing a couple of hundred bucks quickly or whatever) I'd assume a step-switch operated silent alarm anyway and just knock the clerk off. Or ask something from the shelves behind the counter, announce robbery when the clerk has moved away from it, walk him in the back room and try to make him open the safe (unless it has a time delay lock). In this case, something like a flashbang hidden somewhere above the safe with switc in safe or wired into the electronic dial/pad...

[leonvios]

What about filling the sprinkler system with mace or pepper spray or just the one above the front of counter and having a gas mask or something like that under the shelf for yourself, then use a button to lock the doors and pick up baseball bat or something more evil and beat him to the floor while he is blinded and gasping for breath.

[PYRO500]

All of you are thinking small :) .

I like the idea of using electricity as a defense beacuse it is a whole lot cleaner and less harmful to you. If I were going to use an explosive I would do something like pour hot TNT into the cash register drawer and get a drawer with cast TNT in the hollow spaces, then I'd put in a detonator and timer to go off so many seconds after the drawer was removed (and a secret trigger pressed). Then mr. robber can have all the cash he can carry, except he's not likely to have anything that closely resemble hands if he's even still alive.

Another Idea I had was a capacitor bank attached to the door handles. when he grabs the box step on the trigger and a high wattage PSU will charge up a high voltage capacitor in about a second as well as activating the magnetic door locks :D so when the guy trys to burst through the doors he ends up getting a lethal dose of electricity to his body and either dies of internal injury's or from his flesh exploding from all the current running through it.

I have been considering if a few of my capacitors are up to the job:
(copy and paste links)

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/lytic.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/lytic.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/lytics.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/lytics.jpg</a>

These are some fairly small 525V 7700 Uf capacitors. They may be small but they are about 1060J where 30J is considered borderline lethal.
the only problem is there electrolytic and fairly low voltage so they'll discharge alot slower than true capacitors and there only 525V (1050V series) so they need to contact bare human flesh to work as well as needing a good solid contact to be potentially lethal. Regardless of lethality it'll feel like grabbing some 430V utility line (without 60 Hz buzz) and will make getting zapped by a stun gun feel like getting tickled by static electricity.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/little.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/little.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/littles.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/littles.jpg</a>

This cap is a bit higher voltage and is a true capacitor and will discharge alot faster but is only 50 J. This capacitor like the above electrolytics need to have a good firm contact with the skin to work effectively. The capacitor will also hurt pretty bad if not kill the person touching it.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/cap1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/cap1.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/cap2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/cap2.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/big.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/cap/big.jpg</a>

This is the "big bertha" of my capacitors, this one is 4,200V with 2628J of energy storage, it is possibly one of the most lethal things I own. This capacitor is big and heavey so it'd need to be mounted in a wall and carefully insulated beacuse it's 4.2 KV and will arc to nearby grounds.
If you could insulate the door to work with this you would either kill or severly maim the escaping criminal beacuse on contact it's likely this cap would blast chunks of flesh right out of his hands! imagine how your heart would take that kind of energy! I am also getting 2 more of this same cap as soon as I go to a certain town again where I bought this one. Although I think adding more than just this one would be over kill and add extra guts for you to wipe up off of the floor and more blood to show up on luminol scans if suscpicion arose.

With all three of these caps you'd want a power supply constanly charging them, that way if they get zapped away the first time the cupply keeps charging and will zap their sorry ass into oblivion if they should happen to try to run through the doors with the big capacitor attached.

If capacitors aren't your thing than there always is the option of taking mains power and running it into a transformer to step up the voltage untill it's sutible enought to pass the lethal currents you want through the guy's body.
Two suitable transformers are below, they are microwave oven transformers, they both are capable of putting out about 2000V of electricity (more peak). one is about 1000W and the other is 1200W. they can deliver more current than this in short circut conditions so I hear.

Microwave oven transformers are all usually good lethal zappers, they can even make electric arc's hot enough to melt glass! can you imagine what would do to a human locked onto the door handles?

assuming the robber grabbed onto the handle and tried to force the magneticly sealed door open with brute force he would find himself locked onto the door getting a lethal dose of electricity jumping around as his muscles contracted. I can imagine after a while someone connected to one of these would start to cook and smell pretty rank, but oh whell, there just precooked before you drag their corpse into the back for dismemberment/disposal.

[john_smith]

Why bother shooting or zapping the idiot robber if he's already running away? I wouldn't risk a murder charge for 200 bucks, and certainly not for someone else's 200 bucks... And if Bubba decides to shoot you before leaving because he's already been caught twice (three strike law!), he'll be home free. Would it be possible to charge the register instead of doorknob? Are these tings grounded?

[EP]

Explosives would definetly be too risky because of damage to the store, the difficulty of reinforcing the counter to withstand backblast, and hearing damage to yourself.

I like the electricity ideas, it would definetly be a cleaner way of doing things.

If it was me, I'd probably just go for the easy way: a silenced pistol and get them in the back on their way out the door.

K.I.S.S.

[nbk2000]

Remember, "Mad Max" time means no cops to deal with. I'd rather any method take care of the robber BEFORE he gets the money, just in case he's of the mind to blast the clerk once he has the money.

[Boob Raider]

While everyone is thinking more fun and cleanup afterwards ...... I say less fun and no cleanup. How about having one of those net throwing thingies attached near the motion sensor that operates the door or near there which is armed by the clerk and fired by a narrow field motion sensor, which leaves you a wraped dick to deal with. Or however the shotgun idea was used ... use beanbags instead of buckshot. If an electrical approach is desired, use .22 cal blanks to launch Al electrodes with wires attached to em which connect to a stungun and you have a bug zapper. If forumeers have a "bigger is better" approach, I would like to suggest a liquid N2 cooled (4 tesla)Supermagnet underneath the tiles in front of the counter. Assuming the clerk keeps a gun underneath the counter, before picking up the weapon, the clerk activated the supermagnet for lets say ... long enough till he hears the weapon drop. He then has to switch off the supermag pick up his gun and get the robber in the back while the robber is attempting to pick up his weapon fron the floor. This might sound like the clerk has lots to do but its a fail safe method as any secondary weapons will also be pulled to the ground. Oh BTW the robber might be levitated too and will fall on his head when the gun in his hand yanks him down with his feet in the air.

[PYRO500]

I wouldn't consider a 4 tesla supermagnet to be feasable, for one it'd be huge and probobly consume more power than your power box could handle. Another thing is that how are you gonna constantly refill the tank with LN2 and where are you gonna buy this magnet the size of two mri machines?

If killing the crook before he gets the money is the idea, I like the pipe shotgun idea. I don't know much about convienince stores in general (I prefer to pay at the pump and avoid the greese balls inside) but if you had a dropped panel cieling you could mount some of your pipe shotgus up there, a shotgun blast or two to the head/ upper torso is at least gonna cause him to be laying on the ground dying.

I kind of like the bright light flash idea, on min the lights go out and another second there is an explosion that blinds/stuns the victim and you take the initiative to pull your piece and blast away and peforate the stunned fucker. you could do this either with flash bangs or if you wanted to get high tech you could use exploding wire from a capacitor bank discharge although that's not gonna be simple.

If you like your victim a bit crispy than why not a flame thrower? does anyone remember the car blaster defense shield with the propane burner that would fry an attempted car jacker?
All you would need is a propane container that had a decent flow rate and some hardware and you could rig up a device to cause a big propane fireball to burn the attacker pretty bad. For ignition I would recomend some kind of HV arc, I have a small dc to dc converter that takes anwhere from 5-15VDC in and outputs 1-12 KV! it shouldn't be hard to rig up a system like this with a little work.

[Boob Raider]

I would personally avoid the flamethrower totally, unless I had something against the owner of the store. When you light someone on fire .... 2 things always happen. 1). You scare the shit out of the person and 2). He can't see where the hell he's going. So the final outcome will be some sorry bastard bouncing around the shelves and isles like a ball in a pinball machine setting anything he bounces of on fire :p . And as far as the flashbang idea goes .... whats going to protect the clerk from getting stunned ? And I don't think any robber will be dumb enough to not notice welders goggles and ear muffs. I don't know how effictive closing your eyes and covering your ears is against a flashbang or a similar device. Ok I know the Superconducting Magnet was way out there but how about a trap door that opens below the robber which drops him 8 ft in a pit. Or how about a weighted column of the celing which pulverizes the robber when fired by the clerk :D .
How about installing an air curtain at the doorway which has a culinder of pepper spray or something in it and when the robber is leaving he gets pepper sprayed by the clerk operating a foot switch.
I don't know which one will work .... robbery situations are very unpredictable.
Hey Pyro is that DC multiplier salvaged from something or you bought it and from where ? Also how many uA/mA does it put out ?

<small>[ October 05, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Boob Raider ]</small>

[leonvios]

What about having an electrical sensor on the door and thus when opened the circuit is broken the electricity could then be put through a resistor activating an upward spray of sulphuric acid protruding from small pressurized pipes under the floor in which case...well we all know what could happen. The floor switch mentioned earlier can activate the circuit.

Also there could be sensors on the clerk which tell a simple computer if he is alive or not if not than it will detonate a very large amount of high explosives planted all around the store and boom everyone die's but you don’t care cause you are dead already. (This is not recommended for suicidal people)

<small>[ October 05, 2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: leonvios ]</small>

[Boob Raider]

The problem with H2SO4 or similar stuff is that it will allow the robber to take the clerk down as they ar not instantly painful unless he gets it in the eye in which case it will be as unethical as using lasers to blind enemies :p LOL. I suggest if you want some gadget .... it will be most effective near the door as when the robber is leaving 95% of his attention is on the clerk. Something like a sledge hammer or a crossbeam hinged outside the door so when fired off by a shotgun shell will swing down with a shitload of force and take him out in the back of the head, face, collar, neck, back etc :D . The hammer can be camoflagued (sp?) by a thin glass plate with wall paper on it.

<small>[ October 05, 2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Boob Raider ]</small>

[PYRO500]

Come on now, hungry dogs in the basement, trap doors! what ever happened to RTPB # 40 KISS (keep it simple stupid) I think that anything that is too complicated or far out there is out. Remember now, the 4 elements of a perfect crime, profit not revenge, you have your life to profit by killing this bastard before he might kill you also there's the thing about punishing those who will rip you off but your immediate concern it yourself. (sorry couldn't resist quoting those)

I think what NBK2000 is planning for is that anyone could be a lethal criminal that follows his codes just like he does, if so then it's in his best intrest to be as lethal as fast as possible. The flame thrower idea would work and would not necessarily catch the whole store on fire if it was a quick burst of propane and not a flammable liquid (well a volitile liquid with flammable vapors) the fireball would burn him but probobly not set him on fire. now anything really close that was farly flammable might catch but you can worry about that later. It's not like the flame thrower would have enough range to reach way back into the store.

[nbk2000]

Quicker (and deader) is indeed better. :)

The spring loader leg breaker bar is neat. It would either sweep 'em off their feet, shatter their legs, or pin them to the counter. Either way, they're easy pickin's. :D

Avoid anything with fire if possible. Fire spreads in unpredictable fashion and could get out of hand. Dogs? Pits? :rolleyes:

Anything exploding would likely be bad too because of concussion in an enclosed space. Likely the clerk (me) would end up deafened as well.

[Positive Electron]

how about a 4 foot by 4 foot one inch think iron plate suspended in the celing? double foot switch, and a huge plate is pneumaticially shot to the ground, SPLAT, severely disabled criminal

[Eliteforum]

A bullet proof screen would be the best choice, but it depends, if you actually want to hurt the would be robber.

[PYRO500]

I have a few new ideas I've been thinking of.
This one is more of a chemical weapon related thing but it should work. It involves a tube or series of tubes that are connected to a container (probobly PE or PFTE) that is filled with something you probobly don't want to get on you. The first thing that came to mind was cairo's acid or H2O2+H2SO4 this container would have a pressure siphon and with a simple pneumatic solenoid valve would release a tank of air or something into the container causing the caustic substance to be pusshed out into the PE or PFTE tubing. This would then lead to a series of tubes above the robber on the cieling or inside the counter or whatever and would spray the mix on him and avoid you when you hit the buttons.

Something that concerns me is that most of these ideas is that alot are dependent on where the guy is standing. I think the best bet here is to get the guy when he comes up to the counter although he might shoot you right after you pull the drawer out so you got to play this smart and make sure you get the guy up real close to your target area before using the device.

I think the leg breaker bar has potential and I was thinking of how to improve it's usability in a real robbery situation. I have been thinking of several things relating to them. I think that getting the bars spring loaded might be difficult and dangerous so I think you could also put them on some kind of strong pivot and put a small amount of shielded high explosive behind one end. Hopefully you should be able to get some power behind the bar and smack them pretty good. The only downside would be that it wouldn't have the pinning efect the spring loaded desgn did. Also I think two spring loaded bars at either end of the counter with a central piviot would be best if space permits. This would allow them to be standing at either end of the counter and still get smacked pretty good by either bar should the be a need to take someone out.

I also had the idea of explosive charges below the floor. I was thinking that if a few of the floor tiles could be removed some electricly initiated shot shells could be wired into the floor, seated in place with plaster and completely hidden from view with a few new times. Anyone tries to rob the place and the shells go off tearing the attempted robber quite a few new holes.

[Boob Raider]

QUOTE Me "Hey Pyro is that DC multiplier salvaged from something or you bought it and from where ? Also how many uA/mA does it put out ?"
So where did you get it from ???
I was also thinking of a small 5 gallon tank in the ceiling which can dump its load (similar to those safety showers in labs) when the clerk wants it to. It can either contain almost boiling H2O from the building's utility line which will prove to very effective, or something really sticky and viscose that would make movement really difficult something with the consistancy of molten chewing gum.

[nbk2000]

I was thinking a giant rat-trap type of item.

The pivots are at both ends of the counter. The bar sits in a depression in the floor, covered by a floor flap. When activated, a pyrotechnic ram fires off and drives the bar up out of the floor and into the front counter with blinding speed.

Anyone within 3 feet of the counter is going to be slammed into the counter and pinned there, or flipped head over heels. Bones and backs will be broken, heads whiplashed into steel counter tops or cement floors. :)

Oh, and the neat thing about this is that, given how the robber would be physically moved several feet in less time then it takes to blink, his aim will be thrown off before reflex allows for the trigger to be pulled. Thus, even if he's only a foot away from you with a gun to your head, he'll miss regardless of how good he may be. :D

[Positive Electron]

What about arming the cash register with a series of tubes that would shoot flechettes out in a 120 degree spread when fired? that would probably hit his hads, arms, chest, face, eyes, neck, ears and other vital parts...no one could get a shot off in that condition.

[leonvios]

Hey what about having a timed explosive set for say 5 min or so attached to the cash tray when it is pulled out the timer starts and they make a run with the tray you listen with a smile and a wistle watching you watch until you here a boom in the distance.
(this would probable work better if it had some sort of distance meter attached to it which will blow up when they run a certain distance)

[PYRO500]

My DC to DC converter is EMCO high voltage corp's E101 model. I ripped it from a laser power supply board. It outputs 12,000V @ .002A

I like the mousetrap idea although it might be hard to conceal effectivly. I don't know how much space is avalable in cash registers so I'm not sure how feasible it would be to install flechette tubes in there.

<small>[ October 06, 2002, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]</small>

[kingspaz]

what ever happend to the classic trap door in the floor? the chashier guy just hits a button (as the robber tries to make his getaway) and a 3*3m square of floor just infront of the door flips down and the robber falls down into a pit in the basement. then the basement is flooded with an anasthetic and the pigs move in to arrest him :) ..costly but effective.

[Positive Electron]

what about a swinging bar type thing that comes up from the ground and hits the (male) criminal in the balls? make it pneumaticially fired and you could disable him not only for the time it takes the cops to come, but proably for the rest of his life, whihc would probably be a huge deterrant for criminals to come. imagine the sign outside the store "this store is protected by a huge ball crushing swing bar!"

[MoToMaStR]

haha, I read a few of the ideas and though of something cool. ya know how on older cars that have the winsheild washer sprayers on the hood of your car, you can move them and point them in all kinds of directions? my buddie use to put like 1/2 a gallon of piss in the washer fluid and have the jets pointed out straight left and right, and go down to the board walk and seaside where everybody walks on the sidewalks and shit. hed spray them a few times with piss and the people would laugh till they got a whiff of it. hahaha, well anyway, my idea was on a bit of a larger scale with some kind of acid, or crazy glue. when the perp says "gimmy all yo money foo!" you act like a pussy and go to the register and start getting the money in a handfull, then hit a button under your register thats rigged up to some jets that will spray a mist of epoxy or like nitric or sulfuric acid or some shit all over the bastard. crazyglue does some cool stuff when it gets on clothes,... i noticed its not kind to cotton, it starts to get really hot and smoke and shit so it'd probably freak em out if it got on him. in addition to that, permanatly blind the fucker if 1 little mist particle got in his eye. sound good? let me know. if all else fails, pull out your willy and start pissing on the guy, but then hell probably shoot you, but you'll go down in style. hahah

(edit)
sorry, this is kinda like pyro500's idea. =\ I thought I was thinking of something new.

<small>[ October 06, 2002, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: MoToMaStR ]</small>

[DarkAngel]

I see alot of ideas that are based on the fact that the robber(s):Are always in front of the desk,
Will let you live after they got the cash.
And some of them seem to be overkill and getting you only into more problems rather than solving one like destroying the store/money risking your and other lives.

I prefer an idea that's effective in multiple area's of the store,doesn't destroy the store/money (only slightly damaging it),
And is safer for you and others that maybe be in the store.

I whas thinking about a voice activated counter measure system that fires shotgun shells, which also could be filled with plastic or other non penatrating projectiles that will only hurt.

The guns (black squares in red area)are placed in the walls on certain places inside the store that form the red area like on the picture
<img src="http://entersection1.virtualave.net/Pictures/store1.JPG" alt=" - " />

The Red area is te area where a robber would probably strike,the thin red lines display the Hit and Safe area's depending in which area's you and the robber are it will be a hit or a safe area.the Blue area is the desk with the cash register on top.
In case of a robbery the system is activated by a secret switch and after that it will be activated further by voice that eventually trigger the guns.
You will have a microphone on you that will trigger guns by calling commands which are made by first calling the name of the wall and than the number of the gun. Alfa could be a wall and Bravo could be a wall.1 could be a number of a gun.So when you call "Alfa 1" or "Bravo 8" it would trigger certain guns as seen on the picture.

On the next 2 pictures i described a robbery going on the green spot is the clerk and the dark red one the robber.
In the first picture "Alfa 2" cancels a robber and in the second one "Alfa 5" does the job.

<img src="http://entersection1.virtualave.net/Pictures/store2.JPG" alt=" - " />

<img src="http://entersection1.virtualave.net/Pictures/store3.JPG" alt=" - " />

Atleast in the Red area on your stores floor a lino with a square pattern could be placed to quickly indentify the Hit and Safe area's, gun numbers would also be placed on the wall and maybe on the floor for the same reason.

Like i mentioned earlyer the shot shells could be filled with non penatrating projectiles like dry beans,plastic balls ,etc.This could provide safety for you others and even the attacker so you don't have to kill him.After a shot shell has been fired a gun hidden close to the desk is immediately taken to ensure safety.

Still you could be in the same area as the robber but this system could be a good option.

Does anyone have improvements/thoughts about it?

<small>[ October 06, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]</small>

[Flake2m]

Well we have had trapdors, shotguns, ball crunchers, legs breakers, flame throwers, tazers the list is endless. however, noone has thought off trapping the crimminal in a giany glass jar.

When you are preparing to get the cash out of the register you press on a pedal near by and two things happen:
1: A large container rises from the floor and traps the crimminal.
2: The container starts to fill up with a liquid that is generally inert, but when a binary chemical is added, it becomes toxic and corrosive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> .
The other idea I had was that the container fills with water and then a giant burner is turned on and they are boiled alive :p .

This is filmed on camera and then shown on the news the following night :D . The crimminal has one chance to surrender or they die.
I haven't quite figured out how I would prevent the crook from shooting his way out, but I imagine if the container is made out of poly-carbonate glass then he work be able to do jack.

[nbk2000]

Darkangle, I've thought of a similar idea.

In this one, the alarm pendant is actually an IR emitter. The surveillance cameras can see the light from the IR emitter and, as long as any 2 cameras can see the emitter, the system can, via triangulation, determine your position. Then, when activated, all the "guns" fire, except the ones within a yard of you, taking out the crim without risk to you.

The rounds are frangible slugs that would blow apart inside the crim, but won't richochet off anything inside the store, thus avoiding possible injury to yourself while riddling the crim full of lead.

Also, the system automatically fires anytime a gun is fired in the store. Thus, any robber who blasts you walking in the store is still going to die, regardless of whether you're alive to set off the system or not.

[Arkangel]

Well I reckon for fun, (and this would work well with NBK's staff sensor system), you have a very solid ceiling - ideally the reinforced concrete roof. Then, you have a loose floor, in panels, each very rigid, and each with a high volume airbag underneath.

The main danger for the staff would be not laughing their arses actually OFF when it worked. Imagine if you will, the blagger runs in, waves gun, demands money before flying upwards at 50G, probably smashed legs, smashed skull - a bleeding heap on the floor - COOOOL!!!!!!!

[leonvios]

What about a harpoon gun that can pin a criminal to the wall it could be operated by a pedal on the floor which can fire it and you can use your legs to aim it though it would take alot of practice. the front of the desk could be made of cardboard.p.s NBK2000 have you found anyone that will represent you in court to sue your employers?

[Boob Raider]

NBK the staff sensor you are thinking about was shown in the movie Judge Dred (sp?). It seems we are moving to ideas that I think would be to large and complex to camoflauge in a store. I don't know .... I am out of ideas but most of the defence systems here have 1 robber and him not comming behind the counter and getting the money for himself. Why not install a lead sensor (HD metal detector) and have a kind of an obstructive enterance so no one can just run in and the flashing light from the lead sensor should give you enough time to get that 10 gauge. I personally think no computer system operated traps will be as effective as a prepared clerk with a 10 gauge semi shotgun (12 gauge can also be used) as the robber certainly won't be expecting a barrel in the face as soon as he comes in. Anyways.

[Eliteforum]

I think a load of shotguns pointing all around the store would be a deterrent in it's self!!

[Mr Cool]

Damn, Arkangel beat me to it with the giant airbag idea.
I think the best deterrant (since there are no police in this theoretical discussion) would be to have the guy behind the counter standing there with a flame-thrower and a pitch fork (or any other combination of brutal, messy weapons) and a simple sign stating that "Robbers will suffer before they die."
That'd certainly put me off.
Or if you want something to stop them during/after the robbery, then my #1 choice would be airbags in the floor (Robber: "Give me your money - ooh, I can fly! SPLAT!"), #2 choice would just be a shotgun under the counter facing the front, so when it's fired it blasts through the thin front of the counter and into their gut.
Although in practice I'd just hand over the insurred money!

[BoB-]

I think Mr. Cool has something there, the gun(s?) could be angled up to hopefully hit the gun as well as the robber. You could also keep a small high powered pistol in your jacket pocket incase someone sneaks up behind you, then you dont even have to present a weapon, and you can still take out the crimie.

You could always install a walk-through Xray machine in the entrance :D

[nbk2000]

The company that makes "Pepperballs", the same stuff shot at the rioters at the Seattle WTO riots, now sells it to 'civilians' at the grossly inflated price of $2/shot, in 10 shot increments. ;)

https://ssl41.securedata.net/pepperball/order.html

50 shots = $100, as part of 10% = Bling Bling! :D

[neomyth]

are you guys all serious on some of this stuff claymores, exploding trap doors etc. I think that trying to mame or kill this robber in frount of the counter would be satisfying but isent it just the same if you get him on the way out.
To start with you dont need a complicated desine to stop him or her lol.. this robber will probably be runing by the time they get to the door so all it will take is a taught line of piano wire-- I think that you could make a rig that would pull the wire in frount of the robbers neck then lock it in place in a fraction of a second ----- fraction of a second = fraction of a robber :p

[Ropik]

I think about something like inverted football gate(only the arc would be used, not the support structure) scaled down a bit and installed with pneumatic propelling system to the ceiling(people rarely look up) on the hinges. When someone steps on the two switches like in NBK first idea, this steel arc should swing down at tremendous velocity and smash taller robber to the chest, shorter one to the face. Even nastier version can be made with a section of sharpened grating in a steel frame - instantly grained robber:D . Cleanup required, though.
Ball crusher would be very good idea IMO, but difficult to mask. Imagine if some comrade on deballed robber see that you stepped on something and his friend was instantly castrated. Next day you walk around the deballer and our brave comrade take his way through the back entrance of the shop and activate ball crusher switches... :eek: I'm only dreaming, though. I know that this is nearly impossible... but imagine it!

[Rhadon]

I don't see any point in your post, Ropik. If you've got nothing useful to contribute, don't post. I already got complaints from two people who told me that you're post-whoring. I told you about it and warned you, what else can I do? Since my words don't seem to have any effect on you, you're banned until August 4th 2004. I hope that this will be enough.

[rolynd]

I would combine the trap door with a bullet proof glass plane. The glass plane would be inconspiciously covering the entire front of the counter and the instant you are releasing the trap door the bullet proof glass is propelled upwards by a small charge.
Advantage would be that even when he is already pointing a gun at your face with his hands reaching over the counter the upcoming window will slam into his arm deflecting the bullet to the ceiling while him falling down into the basement now at your mercy. You have also the possibility of installing a third button which activates a small electromotor in the basenemt pulling a board of spikes right under the trap door first if its not your friendly day :rolleyes: . I would like to have the option to go non-lethal first.

[Jacks Complete]

Well, I'm glad he didn't get BFL! Ropik, please behave, since I think you do contribute well sometimes!

I looked at this thread to find out about Ropik, but, to stay within the rules, I should say what I thought of whilst reading this.

The giant glass jar is a good idea, though impractical and expensive (polycarbonate costs a lot!)

I would go for a large steel cup, about three to five feet deep, and then secure it to the ceiling with a battery backed electromagnet set-up. Of course, the whole thing is quite heavy, by design.

You hit the button, and gravity does it's thing. As it falls, a thick steel armour plate, in the form of the side of the cup, drops between you and the danger. A split second later, the entire mass of the cup lands on the head of the perp. At this stage, even if they fire, the bullet will not hit you, or even ricochet around your store. If it does bounce back, it will either hit the other sides of the cup, or the perp! Body armour won't help them, even a bulletproof helmet won't stop that much blunt trauma. If it doesn't break their necks (it will work against a whole group) it will certainly pin them down, in a cell that is a few feet deep, and bullet proof.

Then do as you will...

At night, a simple pressure sensor would help protect the store, too. A spring or tension reel would slow it down to non-lethal levels if you wanted it.