Stabbing Weapon Design

[Positive Electron]

This could probably be made by anyone who has access to a welder.

it would be 4 thin blades 4mm wide, on a base in a square formation. the blades will be 2 cm apart, and will curve up to the top where they will connect together in a sharp point. of course they will be tempered and quite strong, but the design of the weapon is to have a hollow middle, so when the target is stabbed, a large area is present for blood loss, and a large hole is left, but maintaining a lightness to the weapon, and forcing a stab wound to be effective. this would prove to be a slightly more diffucult fighting style, but it would prove much more effective.

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

A few problems that i can see, most people have a resistance welder (sticks used to weld) this tends to blow-away the metal if it is too thin, and heat-treated metal would become de-tempered (exists?) due to the extreme heat involved. A MIG or TIG welder
(Metal in Inert gas/ Tungsten in Inert gas) wight be able to get desirable results with fairly thin material (maybe as thin as 3mm)

Thin usually means weak, if you form this weapon using thicker steel, and then use a grinding disk (or something along those lines) to reduce the thickness, this avoids most of the tempering
problems and allows for serrations to be created :D these serrations leave a wound that is a REAL bitch to sew up again
(due to the lack of a "nice" clean cut)

[nbk2000]

I had an idea for a stabbing weapon. It had a core consisting of an icepick, around which where several tubes. The tubes fit within each other over the pick.

Each tube has flat spring barbs that lay flat against the tube when restrained by the larger tube it sits within. The tubes are perforated for their entire lengths.

When a person is stabbed, the ice pick provides the strength to penetrate the body or vest and, upon withdrawl, the outermost tube stays in place, holding the wound open and providing a non-removable blood channel.

On each subsequent stab (up to the # of tubes), an additional blood channel is made when the next tube is embedded in the target.

3 stabs equals three embedded tubes gushing blood. Each additional stab is just a regular icepick hole.

[darkdontay]

His idea makes me think of a large appel core'er but as far as I know you would have to get it all the way through to realy leave the hole... I like the idea NBK came up with.. but are nasty though and well what is the point of fighting fair in a fight, the point is to when and I think that would more then likely give you a "edge" in the fight.

<small>[ October 16, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: darkdontay ]</small>

[Aaron-V2.0]

I just cant waste an idea even if it's a bit implausible and complex. Ok, this is a spin off of NBK's tubing design. Simply have a handle where the tube fits into about 3", have the business end crimped with a point and short barbs attached, before crimping the other end fill the tube with Iron Oxide/Al mix, magnesium powder, BP and a "Snap pop" string igniter (String with a fold of paper with Silver/Mercury Fulminate) on it. Crimp the end down and have the string lead into the handle where it's secured. Then have a notch in the tubing where it's inside the handle for a notched "Safety handle" (Like the one on a jackknife so the blade doesnt close on your fingers, just this is so you dont pull the tube out prematurely.)

I know it sounds very garbled but look at the sketch I made in Adobe and it'll make sense.

A side note is at the bottom of the tube one could place a few grams of AP for a "finale" to the burning thermite mix.

And if it's purpose isnt obvious then take a look, you stab the device into the target's chest, depress the safety handle and pull the handle off the tube triggering the Silver/Mercury Fulminate to ignite the BP which ignites Magnesium to the thermite. I think having a thermite mix burning into your chest will have a faster effect than a hollow tube to increase bleeding. (More pain!)

http://aaronewf.tripod.com/images/fused_impaler.gif

Hope this makes sense, I'm trying to get it all down before I forget it.

EDIT: Typo & changed picture format.

<small>[ October 17, 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Aaron-V2.0 ]</small>

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

On a visit to wally mart I found myself cruising the sports section and I saw something that REALLY caught my eye, for within the hunting section, next to the compound bows I saw a truly evil toy :D . BLOOD LETER'S (ok, i can't remember the spelling but that was the name basically) they have either 3 or 4 razor blades that are spring loaded, all held together by a nylon 'ring'. as the arrow penetrated victim, the nylon ring is displaced and the razors are allowed to swing out INSIDE the target. As they have a curve, they are extremely dificult to pull out.

http://www.arkansasduckhunter.com/HCarrow2.html

This is almost exactly what I saw (these don't need the nylon ring).
Imagine having a few of these on home-made handle's, quick-draw one or two and leave them inside (or if really evil PULL them out) of victim

oooooh thats gotta' hurt :D

[nbk2000]

No reason you can't combine them together.

Cut down a regular aluminum arrow tube to about 10" long with the described pop out blade arrowhead attached. Inside of the tube is an AP charge topped off with a fuse hooked up to a friction pull igniter.

The whole assembly attachs to a hollow handle, like a bicycle grip.

When stabbed into victim the blades pop out, locking the shaft in place. As you pull off the handle, the fuse is ignited and, a few seconds later, the AP charge explodes inside of the target creating massive internal injuries.

Just be sure to use overkill and include poison and drill bleed holes in the shaft, just in case the charge doesn't blow. RTPB: Plan for failure.

Though you'd likely only need one solid stab anywhere in the torso to ensure an almost instant kill. Also, since the gram sized charge would be contained inside of a large water filled sack <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , I doubt there'd be any noise other than the screaming...certainly no loud explosion to draw attention.

Also, aaron, save drawings like yours in .GIF, rather than .JPG. It'll be much more compact. Remember, .JPG is for photographs, .GIF for computer drawings.

<small>[ October 17, 2002, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[MoToMaStR]

Hey vir sapit qui pauca loquitur. I go to school for welding, and the welding instructor doesn't really car if we make "bad" stuff for projects, like brass knuckles and shit. (I'v never tried the make a stabbing weapon btw) but his idea of 3 or 4 curved blades to make a gaping nasty cut X wound is a pretty good idea. DEFINATLY could TIG it. But if you wanted to SMAW it, I'd reccomend 6010 rods @ 50-65A on DCEN. AND WORK REEEEEEEEEEEEALY SLOW! But, you'd have to stop every 10 seconds or so and let it cool a minute. 6010's are great, high penetration, low temp rods with a tensile strength of 60,000 PSI. But they are also THE hardest electrodes to use, period. Use either 6010 or 6013 (run cold as hell),.. preferabley 1/8" rods. I have been working on some medevil weapons, I made a big double sided axe, and im working on a mace now. I just cant get it to swing right. =/
well, if anybody has welding questions, I could probably help ya.

[Bitter]

I don't recommend welding blade steel. It's usually high in carbon and is prone to cracking on cooling, not to mention the fact that all the heat input messes up the tempering.

"I have been working on some medevil weapons, I made a big double sided axe, and im working on a mace now. I just cant get it to swing right. =/"

Perhaps you have made the chain too long. I have made stuff like that in the past- it's shokingly effective stuff.

[Charlie Workman]

Sarco has a MAS 36 bayonet for sale for less than 8 bucks. It has a cruciform blade about 8-10 inches long. Turn down the stub that screws to the bbl and weld it to a knurled steel handle. I plan on picking up a couple and doing just that. I have a "commando" knife I bought from IMA (International Military Antiques) a few years ago made from a Gras 1874 bayonet and housed in a SMLE spike bayonet scabbard. Punches hard and deep to cause a lot of internal damage with little external bleeding. Just the thing for a crowd.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: Charlie Workman ]</small>

[Deceiver]

i saw on one post in another topic in one of the links a knife/brassknuckle combo it was so when you had the BK's on the blade was sticking out of the bottom of your fist. a good tactic would be to punchem in the face or gut and then go for the kill. it was also designed for "Sentry removal" you sneak up behind them grab their mouth as you slit their throat and stab thier kidnies.

[nbk2000]

I found the perfect, ready-made, stabbing weapon.

<img src="http://www.coredynamics.com/images/gold1.jpg" alt=" - " />

These are called "Trocars" and are used to drain body cavities, usually by morticans. They've even got all-plastic ones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<img src="http://www.coredynamics.com/images/gold2.jpg" alt=" - " />

Notice the ribs on the plastic tube? This would ensure that the tube stayed stuck in the wound, though not as well as hooks.

[Charlie Workman]

They also sell trocars in livestock and vet supply stores. It is to relieve "bloating" in cows. I don't know what condition causes gas so bad it has to be relieved by a hole punched into the animals side, but that's what they say. Seems like a fart would be easier, but I'm a city boy.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

[zaibatsu]

What *were* you doing looking at a morticians supply shop? The mind boggles <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Agent Blak]

It Doesn't... It Really Doesn't

RTPB: It is better to have it and not need it; than need it and not have it.

[A-BOMB]

Well I was just out at Sears and found some cool new toys one it a pinpoint oiler and a pen size automatic center punch. When I got the oiler home I thought that you could use it to inject poisons, I took the tip to a grinding wheel and sharpened it to a point then just stab and press the button on the end and it will inject the compound. And the auto center punch is thin as a pen and just as long. Being smaller than a standard center punch it is weaker so it takes afew more pops on a window to shatter, but would be easily looked over in a search. Heres some pictuers.
(center punch & oiler)
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/new%20folder/TECH0002.JPG" target="_blank">ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/new%20folder/TECH0002.JPG</a>

(oiler with cap off)
<a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/new%20folder/TECH0003.JPG" target="_blank">ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/new%20folder/TECH0003.JPG</a>

[BaDSeeD]

Well, well, well.
It's been a very long time since I've been around guys. Glad to see the forum is still up and operating somewhere (thought you'd get rid of me by changing addresses ehh?).
Greetings all. Anyhow I have to comment on vir sapit qui pauca loquitur :confused: (whatever the hell that is).

Those broadheads for the "blood letters" or whatever the hell you called them are for hunting. They are NOT spring loaded, nor are they hard to remove. They simply swing on a pivot, and an O-ring holds them in place till they hit something. They are designed to stay closed in flight so that your arrows shoot like field points, and don't "wind plane". Upon impact the back side of the blades (which aren't sharpened) are pushed backwards (the o-ring with it), and the blades are exposed. Which then of course cut through whatever it hits.
The whole design of the blade is simply for better accuracy, and also because of the length of the blades, they tend to have a bigger cutting diameter than regular broadheads (more blood).
Their drawback is, the blades are fairly thin, and bend or break everytime you DO get a deer with them (even if you miss), and also on glancing shots, they may not open. The small bit of extra accuracy isn't worth the trouble of these broadheads. I'm back to shooting muzzy's.

Shame on you guys for needing me back here to set this straight :)
Guess I'm the only bow hunter here...(sigh) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Kid Orgo]

Why not inject something horribly carcinogenic?

Use a really small needle, something they wouldn't notice going in.

then, 3mo later, they come down with a terminal cancer.

Or of course, you could use ricin, like the KGB did to that defector. Little poke with an umbrella, and three days later he was dead.


Not to be terribly cruel, but i've thought about using ruhypnol to knock someone out during a bout of drinking via the usual date-rape method, and then inject some nasty mutagen or virus. No memory of the event, as far as they know, they just went too hard on the drinks. Evil, huh?

[nbk2000]

Because the point of this thread is to kill the victim ASAP, with a stabbing implement, not poison them and watch them linger on for months. Otherwise this thread would be about how to give someone cancer, eh? ;)

And it's not too comforting if they die months after they've killed you in a fight where you gave them the cancer shot.

[Kid Orgo]

Well, the idea with the cancer would be it wouldn't be a fight type thing. More of a sneaky move.

But I guess that's off-topic then, huh nbk? Heh heh.

[Thomas[NL]]

I've got an idea,

how about making two pieces of steel tubing 1/8th inch in diameter, one is about 5 inches long, the other one is about 2 1/2 inches long and has a sharp point with (made out of lead because it's poisenous) and then take a piece of thin piping tot slip onto the first piece of steel (the 5 inch one) and weld it to it at the end like so: (o = nothing to make the spacing in my little "drawings" right)

ooooooooooo-----------ooo
=============ooooooo
ooooooooooo-----------ooo

and then stick the other end into the pipe like so:

ooooooooooo-----------ooooooooooo
=============+++++++++++++>oooo
ooooooooooo-----------ooooooooooo
So when you stab somebody with it, the sharp 2 1/2 inch part stays behind in the body. And since it's lead it will poison the stabbée (funny word :p)

Thomas

[Bitter]

That is ridiculous. Lead is far too soft to sharpen effectively. It would be more likely to bend than pierce it's target.

[nbk2000]

Lead poisoning? Unless you're waiting for them to die a few decades down the line...:rolleyes:

This is why newbies are discouraged from posting outside of the watercooler for at least a while after joining.

[Mr Cool]

So, they recover from the wound since the weapon is so damn lame, and die forty years later due to cumulative lead poisoning. Sounds really useful :rolleyes:.

Damn, NBK beat me by a minute!

[Thomas[NL]]

te point was you could stick some kind of poison into the tip. Not neccesarily lead, but KCN or whatever. (hydrogen fluoride in a nickel coating with a needle or whatever.)

[nbk2000]

To quote myself from earlier in this thread...


Just be sure to use overkill and include poison and drill bleed holes in the shaft, just in case the charge doesn't blow. RTPB: Plan for failure.


If you had read the entire thread, you'd have seen that the addition of poison has already been covered. Really...you need to pay more attention.

If the weapon kills by injecting poison, then it is not a stabbing weapon, but rather a poison injector, and as such would belong in a different thread than the one it presently is in, now wouldn't it?

[Jumala]

A cyanide is as poison not the first choise.

Here are some deadly doses of some poisons in mg pro kg weight of the victim.

Sodium or potassiumcyanide = 10mg/kg

Nicotin 1 mg/kg

Tubocurarin 0,5 mg/kg

Aconitin 0,15 mg/kg (Aconitum napellus, monkshood)

Aflatoxin B1 0,01 mg/kg (aspergillus flavus)

The aconitin is an alkaloide and pretty easy to extract out of the plant and also easy to get.

It grows in my garden. It is a nice blue flower.

Aflatoxin could be also possible. Animal poisons are mostly to instable.


Here is a pic of a monkshoot:


http://www.giftpflanzen.com/aconitum_napellus.jpg


It is right, the name is monkshood. Here are some more informations.
http://www.gardenmakers.com/aconitum_napellus.htm

[Mr Cool]

BTW, round here that plant is called "Monkshood." I have it in my garden, too.

[Anthony]

"This rare and extremely hand- some blue-flowered plant grows wild only in the south-west of the British Isles. It grows from one so two feet high. Another old name for it was 'Wolf's Bane' which tells at once that it is highly poisonous"

I remember it from Monkey Island!

[nbk2000]

While aconitine would certainly work, you'd want to use a poison that will kill within a few minutes or less. If you're stabbing someone, than it's a hand-to-hand conflict, one that requires an immediate takedown of the target to prevent any retaliation by them. It does you no good if they kill you but die at hospital, eh? ;)

This is why I recommend succinylcholine chloride as bullet (or knife) poison. It immediately paralysizes limbs and breathing, making the target easy to finish off. Barring that, a saturated solution of KCN will do so within a few minutes, if not sooner.

Mr. Cool, have you thought about trying to extract the aconitine from your monkshood?

[Argeleb Elb]

Succinylcholine chloride, yes but where can we find it? i didn't found any source/synthesis :(

[Mr Cool]

NBK, I've thought about it, but never actually tried. Maybe I will after it's grown up a bit this Summer.

Edit:

http://emmanuel.curis.online.fr/Policier/aconitine_2D.gif

It's not a very simple molecule, I don't know how well the normal alkaloid extraction would work... lots of places for hydrolysis, possibly, and perhaps some acidic carboxyl groups, both of which could easily interfere with the AB extraction, which works best on the more stable, more basic alkaloids.
Maybe if I can find a patent on extracting it or something...

[Arkangel]

Anyone heard of "immobilon"? (Etorphine)

Large animal Immobilon is an extremely potent neuroleptanalgesic which is highly toxic to humans. It causes rapid respiratory depression, cyanosis, hypotension, loss of consciousness and death. It can be effective either by injection, or by spillage on the skin, splashing in the eyes etc. Naloxone is the antidote, but which crims are going to have that on hand ever?

I am told that simply being pricked by a hypodermic needle that has been used to inject Immobilon is sufficient to kill a human very quickly.

[nbk2000]

Sounds like a synthetic opiate. The "-phine" suffix, the symptoms, and the antidote being Naloxene (used for opiate OD's) all point to that.

Surely a search would provide a starting point for a possible source/synth?

Succinylcholine chloride is available to me through a "grandfather" account I have with a chemical company. And, no, I'm not giving up that source. However, it's commonly used in nuerology research, so it shouldn't be too hard to score some from a uni lab. It could even be synth'd, I believe it's detailed in Vogels.

Argeleb Elb, you obviously haven't done a search for it, otherwise you'd have found dozens of sources for it. Whether you can talk them into selling it to you is your problem.

Also, how can we quote you a possible supplier if we have no idea where you are? Typical newbie mistake, being "clever" by not saying where they're at, and then wondering why no one will tell them a source in their neighborhoo. :D

Everyone knows where I'm at, but I don't need help to find my own suppliers either, so I don't have to advertise. :p

Aconitine is an alkaloid, same as any other, so it's not that hard to extract if they could poison Plato with it 2,000 years ago. Purification is the bitch, however. Either electrochemical, liquid chromatography, or crystallization would be needed. I believe it's reactive with picric acid to form seperatable picrate salts. Puruse Saxons "Grandad's Chemistry Medical Jurisprudence" for some starting points.

Modifying existing alkaloids would open up potentials not normally thought of. Strychnine can be converted into methyl-strychnine by alkyation with Methyl Iodide. Me-styrichnine is water soluble, without a bitter taste, and more toxic than the normal alkaloid. :)

[Arkangel]

My question was rhetorical, in that I know where to find it and what it's used for, I was simply mentioning it for people to investigate themselves. I have no desire to use the stuff though, so it's a moot point.

It is the main drug used for large mammal sedation in veterinary practice. It's interesting in the differential effects between species, since you use similar amounts to sedate animals of amazingly different size.

Corollary to that is that it's rapid lethality in minute doses to humans, hence people might want to look more deeply (and have a little searchette themselves) in relation to this thread. It is, however, so dangerous that I wouldn't go near it. Treatment is regular doses of iv Naloxene, which you're not going to be able to self administer in case of an accident. An accident could be spillage on the skin, or a tiny splash in your eye when you're constructing your stabbing weapon.

And by the way, if you ever have any kind of infestation of them, it's the recommended method of humane killing for Dolphins.:)

[Mr Cool]

"Aconitine is an alkaloid, same as any other"

Hmmm.... "alkaloid" is just about any organic molecule with a basic nitrogen atom. There can be quite huge differences between them, eg phenethylamine, caffeine and aconitine. Ideally, for AB extraction you would want an alkaloid with a quite basic nitrogen atom, and no other polar groups. This makes the basic form soluble in np solvents and insoluble in p solvents, and its acidic form soluble in p solvents and insoluble in np solvents.
Caffeine, for example, isn't very basic (in fact, it is neutral in solution) so it isn't protonated too well, and it has polar carbonyl groups, which messes things up by making its non-protonated, basic form water soluble. Psilocybin has an acidic group, so it is also soluble in water even without a protonated nitrogen.
This makes the normal AB alkaloid extraction less efficient for these, so more difficult methods of extraction would need to be used.

If AB extraction can be used for aconitine, then further purification will be unecessary. If it does not work, however, then you would likely need to use chromatography, for example, after doing a simple solvent extraction from the other plant crap.

Picrate precipitation could work though.

[Argeleb Elb]

Sorry NBK, you're right my mistake was stupid, i live in france, i've done a search for few hours and i didn't found any source / synthesis (Vogles is a book right? hum, what a shame, i didn't found the pdf too... :o ) If you have any link for me i will appreciate it but anyway i will search again, sorry again if my last post seem lame. :(

[nbk2000]

You can find a copy of Vogels linked to at The Hive (or Rhodium). Check it out.

If you haven't found a euro supplier, than you need to hone your search skills, not ask for direct links. God helps those who help themselves. :)

[Argeleb Elb]

Ok thanks i'll check the hive :) that's all i was looking for. :)

I finaly found a scan of Vogel's (thanks NBK :) )http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/vogel3.html there is a lot of great informations, but i didn't find anything on succinylcholine chloride (it's hard to find something in a scanned book because i can't use search fonction), maybe there is something under an other name than succinylcholine chloride?

[nbk2000]

Maybe it was the 5th ed., I don't know. Did you check the index? (I'd assume so) Check the Merck Index for further info.

[Argeleb Elb]

Yes i did and i didn't found anything.
Hum merck? my mother work for merck lol, funny. :)

[yt2095]

has anyone ever seen an automatic wine bottle opener?
the sort that takes a 12gm CO2 cartridge (like used in a COB).
it has a long hollow needle, cabable of penetrating a cork to a depth of over 2 inches without bending or breaking.
the needle enters the gap between the cork and the wine, a 1 second press of the button on the top, and Viola, the cork pops out because the gas forces it out.
each loading is good for up to 10 bottles.
a half second burst will explode a mellon.

Air in bloodstream is apparantly not a good thing.

i`ll let you do the maths :D

EDIT: and as far as i know, perfectly legal to carry! (with a good enough reason)

[nbk2000]

If enough gas was injected into the abdominal cavity, the pressure would prevent the diaphram (SP?) from being able to pump to lungs, causing suffocation. Since the needle would make a very tiny puncture wound, that would self-seal, the only way for the victim to survive the attack would be to cut themselves open to release the pressure. :)

Not very likely to happen. And all the gas would escape as soon as the pathologist cut them open. ;)

[yt2095]

on the assumption that they didn`t already explode while you did it, or you didn`t get them in the neck (jugular) i send NBK to the top of the class for 101% maths score :)

no... i`m NOT evil, i was just presented with a question ! ,,, if honesty`s a crime, i throw my hands up and shout "Guilty"

[ancalagon]

The "air in the blood stream" killing method is partly myth. The amount your talking about will certainly kill, but not the amount used in many movies. 10 to 20 cc's, or the air volume of the average hypodermic needle would not be sufficient to kill. It simply gets pounded to nothingness in the heart. I base this on what I was told in the hospital, hooked up to an I.V., and watching a rather large air bubble go into my vein.
Anyway, as for the stabbing weapon, I was thinking of using a pointed tube surrounded by various ripping and slicing blades, that would have a vacuum or suction pump capable of siphoning a large abount of blood and other bodily fluids after the blade-tube was removed, quickening the time of death even if you did not hit an artery.

-Ancalagon

[yt2095]

gas in the blood stream is what keeps us alive i agree whole heartedly, i suffered a bad bike crash in 96 and had to have a tap to bleed air off from under my knee cap also. my post idea wasn`t about causing possible blood clotting months later, but more about killing the bugger instantly!
explosion, gas whatever...
it will work!
and yes sufficient gas in the blood stream will cause blood/gasm traps within a single heartbeat! eliciting instant death!
no movie crap no nothing.... FACT!

an adaptation of the auto cork opener is used to kill sharks instantly also (the gas release is somewaht faster but not by much!)
NBK is quite correct in what he said, and he only refered to perineal cavity!

[A-BOMB]

I was thinking of the same type of thing, I though of useing those 12gram CO2s with the threaded tops (cant remember what there for right now) and the needle from one of those turkey marrinade injectors with the end sharpened to pierce the Co2 with a piece of lead pipe holding it inplace, inside of a bike grip or something of that nature. There cheap enough so you could make dozens and just strap them to you chest and go on a spree. But the bad part is with injecting all that air blood is going to be shot out of the wound and onto you so there is evidence. But the same type of thing could be used with a spud gun to shoot a one of these killer Co2s at a target from farther away and it would be quit too (well if the spud gun is air powerd that is).

[nbk2000]

A good thing about the gas pressurization of the thorax is that it makes it impossible for the victim to scream, or make any other kind of vocalization which could give you away. :)

[ancalagon]

and yes sufficient gas in the blood stream will cause blood/gasm traps within a single heartbeat! eliciting instant death!
I know this, I was simply saying it takes more than most believe. Anyway, I like the idea of using a CO2 cartridge, because I bought a bunch of cartridges about 7 or 8 cm long, and 1 or 2 cm wide. If I were to build a blade-tube, it would be neat to have both a trigger which would release a suction pump, and another one to blow out CO2. It would also be great for the lungs.

-Ancalagon

[nbk2000]

12 grams of CO2 takes up about 6 liters of volume at STP. Since the average human adult males total lung volume is less than 2 liters, that means you've got 3x more volume of CO2 going into the chest cavity than the lungs are capable of holding. Very effective at squeezing the air out. ;)

Testing on a large dog would be in order. :D

[ancalagon]

I purchased these smallish (10 to 20 gram) CO2 canisters for my mini-flamethrower plans. They are used by bikers to pump up tires far away from a normal air pump. They are quite convenient and come with a little triggered (mostly handle, no barrel) gun. The cartridges just slip in the bottom like a clip for a handgun. I might buy another one and modify it for the handle of the tubed-blade design. This idea is interesting me more and more, and I have already begun to gather pieces for a somewhat expensive dagger design. If I get somewhere with it, I'll post both pictures and plans.

Also, nbk, although I share your view reagarding cats (they are some of the most beautiful, graceful, and powerful killers on the planet, rivaled in hunting ability in my opinion only by some sharks), I find many dogs cute (even if they are dumb), and am not quite ready to kill 'em off just for my half-assed "improvised weapons." After all, what are FRIENDS for?:D

-Ancalagon

[Arthis]

I remember the Indian stabbing weapon, the Katar. My parents have been opn holidays there and they saw a special model, said to have been used against tigers.
One central blade is folded into two other blades. You handle it like a katar, and you can make the two blades act like 2 cissors. It can cut about anything (good handling system).

I'm not at home but I'll post a design of the stuff if someone is interested.

[nous]

stabbing isnt always the best way to use a knife.
i did an indoniasian art of silat, and as they show slicing can work more effectiverly,

wouldent mind checking out a judas isccariot (sp?) type design for ripping and shredding. apparently i am told it is quite good for this as they had to penitrate the roman armour with it

[knowledgehungry]

the problem with slashing is that blood gets everywhere. Not good if you want to look innocent walking away from the scene of the crime.

[nous]

there are no inoccent all are guilty!! :) exept children ofcause

stabing in the liver is the most painful death

[Mr Cool]

If you're stabbing someone, causing pain is not the objective. Rather, you will be trying to kill them before they kill you.

[nbk2000]

The reasons why the Alexander the Greats army was so successful was because they IMPALED their enemies on swords, killing them, rather than slashing about which only wounds.

When you using any knife, you STAB, not slash. Slashes may be specteculary (SP?) bloody, but they kill only rarely, and over extended time.

With 911 and medical care being what it is, slashes aren't effective. You must IMPALE your victims brain, heart, or both lungs to get a quick kill. Liver is too slow, though kidney is taught as a sentry removal technique to SF because the pain is supposedly so intense as to make it impossible for the sentry to stay concious, let alone scream a warning.

[nous]

ofcause, but in silat they teach you that if you dont want to kill your victom and just harm to ward of, to slice in certain areas, the first move is always below the knee cap, then you slice back and forth on the arms neck and face, quite a good combo for one move.

i still cant find that design for the freakin ischariot knife??

any one?

[Nihilist]

The poison idea seems to me like the best, if you could find a suitable poison. The "most venomous snake in the world" is the inland taipan snake of Southern Australia. The average dosage of toxin for each bite is 44mg, however this is more than enough to kill the average adult human. Before the introduction of antivenom for this snake(it will be perfect, unless you're fighting right next to a hospital, or the target happens to have the antivenom to taipoxin on him/her) more than 90% of taipan envenomations, are fatal "effects of paralysis and clotting disturbance are caused by envenomation". The amount required to kill an animal is .010 mg's per kg of body weight. While death is not immdediate, paralysis and excruciating pain are. The main component of their poison, taipoxin can be purchased here http://www.alexis-corp.com/html/Toxins_ALX_630_029.html the rest of their venom is a mixture of assorted neurotoxins and procoagulants. As long as you don't use the stuff in Austrailia it is quite likely that the doctors won't know what to do, or won't have the antivenom for this poison. Another thing to note, is the paralysis is rarely temporary, and if it doesn't go away of it's own accord, the victim will be permanently paralyzed. So, even if they do survive, they will most likely be a vegetable.

[MrSamosa]

I remember a quote from the manual used by the Roman Legions... "2 inches in the right spot is fatal." Basically, you don't need a BIG weapon to kill, nor do you need too many fancy blood-grooves and such.

In my humble opinion, one of the best stabbing weapon was the Italian "Stiletto" knife. It was frequently used by assassins, and was very easy to conceal. People would just hold it under their arm or behind their cloak (hence, "Cloak and Dagger"), bump into the target, whip out the knife, stick it in, pull it out, and walk on. All of this could be done in about 1 second.

The knife was basically a thin dagger with a very sharp point. Sort of like a rapier, in a way.

Although I wonder sometimes about the mess one could cause by sticking someone in the heart, then inserting a large bubble of pressurized gas ;) .

[streety]

nous, I've heard a bit about the indoniasian art of silat. I haven't found anywhere near me where it is taught but how have you found it? I think there's a place about an hour away where it is taught and it may be worth checking it out.

[controlphreak]

This may sound a little bit off topic but here we go. My design for a stabbing weapon would be simple. Basicly it would have a sharp blade that would souble as a needle. Then it would have two spring loaded side blades and a vial of a powerful anticoagulant int he handle with two buttons activating one of each feature.

You would stab the person first and press the injection button, which would give them a very liberal ammount of anticoagulant. Then you would press the release button and release the two spring loaded blades to make a nice deep cut. The anticoagulant would be able to be administed several times.

Just my idea. Came up with it on vacation (wierd huh?)

controlphreak

[yt2095]

Great idea IMO.

Heparin (ask people that have had strokes or blood clots at any time, they`re usualy on it for life or Warfarin)
if you can`t get either, look at Rat pioson, it contains Warfarin. that`s your anti-coagulant :)

pity really, I have a box of Heparin vials and several boxes of warfarin tabs here doing nothing.
I use it to soak grain in to kill pigeons on my balcony.

[controlphreak]

LOL Pigeons? Well, I'll look into those anticoagulants, and thanx for the encouragement man! Any help in making this a reality would be appreciated.

[Imperial]

I personally think that Samurai weapons are excellent for killing. They are extremely sharp and as such even slashes will cause grevious (sp?) bodily wounds which are likely to kill within minutes or less.

But since stabbing is the topic, I think I will discuss an idea I have had for a weapon of this sort. Now the fundamental plan for this weapon is not to "stay in", but to be easy to use and fast to kill.
I was thinking of having a reasonably long (20 cm) blade, with both edges sharp, only having another blade perpendicular to it (like a sort of a cross). In the spaces where the four blades (well two) join, could be blood grooves which could be filled with poisons, etc, and which would allow the weapon to quickly be removed for further stabbing action ;). This sort of a weapon wouldn't be a good slasher, but could kill quickly with stabbing, especially if the blades were like 4-5 cm wide, and 5mm thick. The wounds would be difficult to suture if the weapon was somewhat serrated (this would cause problems with taking the weapon out though), but even without serration the deep wounds would be plain evil.
The main problem is the creation of such a weapon, though. Since it is reinforced by more metal, using thin aluminium would work, although the weapon would break if it hit bone, etc. It would be good for momentary defense, though. The best thing would be to somehow get one blade, and to it weld two thin blades on either side, perpendicular. Encasing the end (not the pointy end) in resin/plastic would make a durable and practical weapon, and a handle could be made with the resin or over it. The grooves and sharpness could later be altered by using standard filing, grinding, etc.
That is my idea, at least.

[Anthony]

A "blade" with a profile of 5cm (2") square would, I imagine be difficult to stab effectively with, it just would slip in with the ease of a flat blade or spike. Granted it'd cause greater internal injury, but that's no good if you can't get it anywhere vital!

You wouldn't be able to get it between the ribs, so you'd be left with the abdomen (not fast death) and throat (small mobile and often covered) as targets.

[jelly]

Since daggers with sharp points easily penetrate bones (ribs) and get stuck there, a thrust weapon should have a blunt rounded point, if you want to use it as a murder tool ;)

[nbk2000]

The blade should also be set so that it is parallel to the ribs when held properly. That means horizontial, rather than vertical, like it would be if used against 4 legged animals.

[Imperial]

nbk2000, Anthony: I know what you mean; the blade has to be flat to be able to go in between the ribs. This means that my weapon is limited to stabbing in other areas than the chest, although I was thinking of it as more of a 'add poison to it and quick kill' weapon. It would be more effective in that way, for a lot more poison could be administered in a single thrust due to the increased surface area of the weapon. It would also be a good back-stabbing weapon (the kidneys are easy to reach from behind ;)).

I still believe in current weapons in existance for killing, especially Samurai weapons as I said before. The thing is, there isn't much evolution that can occur for the current knife design, beyond weapons for specialised uses (like my cross-knife) or simply more durable, lighter materials for making weapons.

As for the "parallel to the ribs when held properly" notion, I think that applies to almost every knife, only problem is that most sheeple don't know how to hold them properly and end up causing a slow death instead of a very quick, almost painless one. ;)

[nbk2000]

That's the beauty of my spiked tube weapon. It doesn't matter how you hold it, the spike will always go between the ribs. :)

If I had a katana, then I too could lop off heads with a single swipe, but that wouldn't be a stabbing weapon then, now would it. ;)

Also, it's rather hard to hide one in daily carry, now ain't it. :p

[GibboNet]

Your mention of testing on an animal made me remember when I stayed worked for a vet for a day, checking sheep as part of a new vaccine trial. (shitty work, but VERY well paid) Ever tried catching and checking a sheep for lice ? Then give them a new shot, and record the results as average lice per square inch.. for 350 sheep :(

He had to administer a second shot to each animal, and each shot he was making absolutely sure there was no air in the needle / syringe. He said that because it is injected into the neck, there is a chance that you will hit an artery going to the brain, not a vein going back to the heart.

This is important because apparently even a very small air bubble can cause the animals a painful death due to the fact that the air will cause the smaller blood vessels (forgetting my biology here) to get clogged. In the brain, these vessels are extremely small, so it doesn't take much, and the air isn't absorbed back into the blood this way.

I forget what else he said, but it sounded fairly definate. And, being a vet, I assume he knows what he's talking about.

Sheep being large mammals, I assume this would apply equally to humans. It's a few years ago, but I'm fairly sure that's right.

[nbk2000]

It'd be rather hard to hit the cartoid artery on a moving victim. It's hard enough to hit one when the person is staying still and cooperating, letting alone thrashing about, fighting for their lives.

[Imperial]

It is true that air bubbles can kill if they get into the brain, although unless you actually inject air into the cartoid it isn't likely to happen. The reason for this is that by the time the bubbles would get to the brain, the air will have dissolved in the blood and/or been trapped in the upper chambers of the heart. This way, the air eventually gets dissolved in the blood and never reaches the brain. It would have to be either a lot of air, or a lot of air being injected straight into the cartoid for it to be deadly. And as nbk2000 said, that ain't gonna happen :p.

nbk2000: Of course katanas are hard to get around. That is why one sticks with tantos, daggers, small knives and the like when outside (your stabbing tube may seem like an idea....) What katanas are good for is when an idiot/pig/both gets into your house and tries to kill, rob and/or arrest you. That is when the heads really begin to roll. ;)

[MrSamosa]

Well, would Katanas really be good weapons for Close Combat? I mean, how much force can you get into a swing in a narrow corridor? Nevertheless, it would be quite amusing to hear of a guy going Ninja on a police officer... Reminds me of a story where a guy cut off another guy's arm with a Katana during a traffic dispute. :D

Now, back on topic for me. Have you all considered the Arrow-Heads used in Hunting? I mean, what if you just bought an arrow, attached one of those special heads (I can't remember what they are called- but when they hit a target, 3 or 4 small blades spring out), and stick them with that?? Those would be quite a pain to pull out, and would make a mess of the skin that would be hard to stitch. Also, Arrows would seem to be relatively easily concealable. Hell, you don't even have to use the whole arrow- break off half of it, or as much as needed to conceal it, and just shove it in. If you need a nice area to hold on to, wrap some rubber bands around it perhaps. But the whole assembly shouldn't cost more than $8 (Well, the arrow heads come in packs of 3 or 4, and are about $8-$10/pack..but this would be good for 3 or 4 stabbing weapons :) )

Of course, it's a one-time use weapon, unless you feel like ripping it out of the victim... Then again, there is a fairly wide variety of weapons to choose from. Perhaps you could rig the arrow so that as it hits the target, the blades spring out, and then there is some switch to pull the blades back in to facilitate removal?

[yt2095]

6`th post, 1`st page, by Vir ;)

[Tended Tripod]

I recall my english teacher explaining to me a weapon the French (I think) used in some war. It was a bayonet but blade was shaped like a +, looking at it from the top. If you don't understand try to imaging what a knife would look like if it made an entry hole like a + sign. As we all know that a very effective tactic in war is to wound someone enough to incapacitate them, while not being fatal. This way two people have to carry the person. This is the reason .223 is a common round. More common to wound intead of killing. While this really doesn't help us with this current topic, I thought I'd bring it up that a wound in the shape of a + sign takes absolutely forever to heal. Not sure why. Probably the fact that if the skin moves in any way, the wound will be pulled open again.

Again, I know this doesn't help us with a fast killing weapon but this thread is titled 'Stabbing Weapon Design' so why not consider all options and decide what the exact use of the weapon will be before omitting certain things from the topic.

[Kid Orgo]

Read "Slaughterhouse Five" by Kurt Vonnegut. In it, one of the characters carries a triangular trench knife for that very reason. It's also a pretty good book if you have a sense of humor a bit on the black side.

[Sparky]

About the arrow heads, I have never seen ones that spring out but the ones with blades on them are called broadheads. Fishing arrows have barbs that come out but otherwise they look much like a normal target arrow - like a pointy stick, without blades. These arrows are considerably heavier and stronger than normal arrows. Most arrows are pretty flimsy since they are meant to be pretty light. They are not meant to be really stiff either since they bend in flight. Arrows meant for stronger bows are stiffer. Use arrows that are aluminum or wood otherwise you will probably have a hard time cutting them. Carbon fiber tends to fall apart if disturbed though intact it is very strong. Same with fiberglass though to a lesser degree. Broadheads are intended to kill the animal by blood loss, which isn't really fast enough for what you want. Also that's why a springing out blade wouldn't be very effective for hunting since it wouldn't cut on the way in (probably why I've never seen one). If your weapon didn't need to kill right away then they would be a REAL bitch to take out though :). Of course you would have to leave it behind if it got caught in a bone. Otherwise yank it out!

BTW broadheads usually screw in so if you wanted you could stab then once they are dead or unconscious twist the handle to unscrew it and leave the head in there but take the rest of the weapon with you.

[Cyclonite]

Well poisions and explosives have been talked about, what about a 2 blade weapon hooked up to some amperage? Stab N' Fry, you wouldnt even have to hit a critical area. I guess you wouldnt even have to really stab them but it would work wonders for an added lethal effect.

[nbk2000]

I remember a spring loaded knife that could shot the blade for several meters with enough force to penetrate plywood boards.

If one was to take a short section of arrow, and have it inside of a spring-loaded handle, then you'd merely have to be within a few yards of your target to be able to maim them. :)

This would be especially effective against someone wearing soft body armor because it can be very difficult to stab a blade through the layers of fiber, but with an arrow point and 200 pounds of spring tension pushing through at contact range, then it shouldn't be too difficult. :D

[Haggis]

The knife is knowns as the "Pilum Ballistic Knife". The Florida Knife Company used to make it, but no word if they still do. It carries a 4.5 inch blade and can supposedly penetrate the length of the blade into flesh from 5-10 feet. I hear it is classified as a concealed weapon in many states and large cities. Other than that, I think it would be a nice knife to have just for fun.

[nbk2000]

Am J Hosp Pharm. 1991 Mar;48(3):501-6.
Stability of succinylcholine chloride injection.
Schmutz CW, Mühlebach SF.

Hospital Pharmacy, Kantonsspital Aarau, Switzerland.

The stability of succinylcholine chloride injection prepared by a hospital pharmacy was studied under a wide variety of conditions. Batches of succinylcholine chloride injection 10 mg/mL containing sodium chloride, methyl-4-hydroxybenzoate, hydrochloric acid, and water were prepared.

Samples were tested for the effect of initial pH (3.0 and 4.2) and sterilization (steam treatment at 100 degrees C for 30 minutes and 121 degrees C for 20 minutes) on stability after three weeks; long-term stability under refrigeration (12, 17, and 23 months of storage at 4 degrees C); and the effect of storage temperature (4-6 degrees C, 20-26 degrees C, 35 degrees C, and 70 degrees C) and light exposure at various intervals up to 12 months.

Samples were analyzed by thin-layer chromatography (TLC) and high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC). Unlike heating at 121 degrees C, heating at 100 degrees C produced no significant loss of succinylcholine chloride, independent of the initial pH. Succinylcholine chloride was hydrolyzed only minimally over 23 months if the solution was stored at 4-6 degrees C.

A 10% loss of drug content occurred if solutions were kept at 20-26 degrees C for five months, at 35 degrees C for one month, or at 70 degrees C for one day. Initial degradation was slowed if the solution was protected from light. The assessments by TLC proved to be more sensitive than the HPLC measurements.

Succinylcholine chloride injection sterilized at 100 degrees C for 30 minutes can be stored for up to five months at room temperature if protected from light. The preparation is stable for at least two years under refrigeration.

[ccw8076]

NBK2000:

I know that you wrote this back in 2002, but I ran across your idea for the icepick/tubing weapon. It all seems very plausible and effective, but wouldn't the subject (if still conscious) be able to just pinch the tube shut? or use a clothespin or something to stop the flow of blood? I mean wouldn't having a tube direct the loss of blood be less effective than an actual hole in the subject?

[nbk2000]

The tube is metal or rigid plastic, with holes drilled the entire length of the tube, so it's impossible to 'pinch' shut or plug the end closed with a finger.

Also, by having a tube in the wound, that keeps the wound channel open and bleeding, rather than the flesh closing up around the puncture like it would otherwise.

By including Succinylcholine chloride in the tube, it paralyzes the victim, making it impossible for them to remove the tube, even if the SC is insufficient to kill them by itself.

[ccw8076]

Ah, deadly,cruel, and paralyzing; the best kind of weapon.

[rightway]

I agree with Cyclonite's idea of using electricity. It takes very little subdermous current to kill, and DC current will cause uncontrollable muscular tension instantly and kills almost instantly. It is cheap, easy to make, easy to hide, easy to use, and fast.

All you need is a sharp wire and a capacitor. You can make a bunch of small, one-time use ones, or one larger one made out of a battery charging capacitor. They discharge slowly enough to allow for multiple kills. They are also easilly concealed due to their size and could penetrate almost any body armor that does not have ceramic or steel inserts, since a very thin and sharp wire would easilly go straight through any fabric.

The best part is that you could make a factory for the things on the steps of a police station and they could not do anything. Capacitors are everywhere and usually harmless (relative to succynilcholine chloride), and pointy wires are not exactly a smoking gun, either. Even better, they are cheap, require no tools or supplies other that a stop by Radio Shack, or you could just as easily make your own capacitors, particularly at such low voltages.

The only downside is that you never get a chance to hear your victim scream... and no blood, either, though both of these could be very good things.

[W4RGASM]

Blade cross-sections have been discussed a bit, IIRC Cold Steel produced a lovely piece of work, the 'Delta Dart'. Knurled, round Zytel (GRP) shaft 5mm in diameter with a 3 1/4" triangular profile stabbing blade. Overall length of 8 1/2", non-metallic and a very handy length to conceal taped to the forearm. Simple cross your arms, reach into your sleeve and shank to your heart's content - The triangular profile makes the wound particularly difficult to close, forming an effective blood fuller in their flesh.