Possible airgun conversion

[HMTD Factory]

There was this thing called "caseless .22" developed and maketed(now discontinued) by Daisy(the airgun company). I saw a few brick still in wrap in a gun show last year, didn't buy something I don't know yet could not examine closely(and it is pricy too).

The caseless .22 is the only commercial caseless ammo ever marketed. The caseless .22 has no priming compound but it is fired in a special airgun(now discontinued) that uses a spring piston; the piston compresses and heats up the air, the air shoot through a tiny hole in the chamber, ignites the propellant.

The caseless ammo is easy to improvise (smokeless, acetone, lead balls, doesn't need to be .22cal). Without a traditional mechanical firing system, there is less modification to worry about.

IMO the gun can be converted with a lathe : a recess for cartridge groove, a chamber reaming job, and one or more air channel(s) on the chamber wall.

[zaibatsu]

But surely you could just use a smokeless blank instead, just make the hole at the breech wide enough to take one and then attatch a .22 cal (or whatever) ball to it, then mount a firing pin system to the air port of the airgun, then when the piston was released, the compressed air would push the pin forwards quickly enough to hit the primer, setting it off. However, you'd have to have some small holes to let air leak out, so that the piston wouldn't have too great a bounce.

[Anthony]

The beauty of using caseless ammo is that the gun requires no modification. Which means less work and also won't arouse suspicion if viewed/handled by your average cop (person to most likely catch you using it, or if it's found in your home during a search).

Nice idea, just gel some NC with acetone and press it into the skirt of the pellet.

[twinkle]

I assume that the compression of such a special airgun is probably higher then a normal airgun to ignite this caseless ammo
but what you could do is adding some drops of ether into the "air chamber" long ago they sold special ether "injectors" sort of hypodermic syringe which you could attached to the airgun . It let your airgun shoots almost as hard as a normal .22 only the lifetime of the gun is shortened while you burn the oil as well in the chamber(cylinder) I think that it would certainly work to ignite some ammo in the barrel but I think that you have to reinforce the barrel to for this.( also in the past the tiny vent whole of he chamber to the barrel was in a straight line nowadays this tiny vent whole is in an angle from the barrel to the chamber so putting an firing pin through it won't work.)
what also might be of interest is they sell special airgun ammo which consist of a hard steel ball which is in a plastic"shell" they are sold in .17(4.5 ) as well as .22 (5.5) nice for armor piercing ammo

[zaibatsu]

Adding some kinds of oil INTO the compression chamber (or whatever its called) can result in detonation, or so I am told, which gives enough energy to actually re cock the rifle, bends out the compression chamber, and fucks up the main spring. However, dieseling happens in practically EVERY air rifle, and adding more oil may just result in a badly firing rifle, whats power without accuracy?

Pellets start moving before the piston has finished its stroke, this may be something to think of. You can get an oil dropper from companies such as Maplin and RS Electronics that could also be used. The airgun ammo you are talking about (twinkle) is known in the UK as Champion Fireball, and known to ricochet. Try Dynamics, they are made of a tin alloy, and as such are harder than lead, but lots of people don't like them. I do understand your point though anthony, but some coppers don't even know that theres a power limit for airguns...

Gotta add that much of what I've posted comes from a book...

[This message has been edited by zaibatsu (edited September 03, 2001).]

[twinkle]

the "ether injector" I was speaking of was a factory made thing , but it is all long ago and in those days there was no limit to air-rifle power you even had these pump-up guns which were very powerful when you used the 12 strokes it could pump but I agree the newer guns has limited power and yes you can damage (or better will damage) an airgun in this way ,I also agree with you that this steel ammo can ricochet they are very light of weight I have not thought of that . but one could made a sabot with a heavier (longer) steel "slug" this way wit ha plastic coating

[era5or]

The factory was Weihrauch/Beeman, the rifle was called HW35 with Barakuda System. The modification was made by Barakuda-Gesellschaft Hamburg.

The HW "Barakuda" gun used small glass ampules of ether which were crushed
into the auxiliary cyliner. Pretty safe. The HW "Barakuda" pellet,
sold also as a Beeman under a different name, was developed to handle
the high energy of this gun.
It is basically a common spring-piston gun with
the add-on chamber.


[This message has been edited by era5or (edited September 03, 2001).]

[zaibatsu]

Ah, the effects I was describing were on a normal rifle, not built to operate in that matter. Anyway, could be interesting, but homemade methods of production seem pointless if shot at a long range, I doubt they'd be accurate enough. But close range work could be promising, all depends on how accurate you can make them.

[Anthony]

A normal spring/piston will certainly ignite the NC on a normal firing cycle - it will also ignite all but high temperature lubricants.

A small amount of dieseling is essential for a springer to fire properly - they won't work properly in an inert atmosphere.

A gun dieseling excessively tends to be innacurate and damages the seals.

A fixed barrel underlever gun may be best for such a conversion as there is no danger of the breach flying open.

[twinkle]

Era5or is right about the factory I know mine was also Weihrauch . In that time you only had normal common oil for lubricating but nowadays you also have teflon lubrication and this can hold temperatures up to 300 C fo short times so maybe when a normal airgun is lubricated with teflon this can be done to though a special designed gun for it would be better

[BoB-]

There isnt a maximun power level for airguns in the US, the manufactuers simply changed the recommended amount of pumps to 10. I have pumped my Daisy rifle 23 times, and the pointed feild pellet went completly through my pellet trap.

[HMTD Factory]

Looks like I have to give serious thoughts about going to a deer hunt with a Daisy pump riflehttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[zaibatsu]

They used to have rifles in the region of 1000ftlb which were pumped thousands of times (by the servants of course http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif) and they would hunt boar with that. Gary (?) Barnes does high power large calibre air rifles in the US, only in the region of around 500ftlb, and PCP. In britain you're talking about Stalker rifles, up to around 300ftlb, and about 6 shots per charge. Some people use the 100ftlb models for shooting foxes.

It'd be better for consisitency if airgun manufacturers in the US made a pressure release valve, so that at a certain pressure it wouldn't hold anymore air. Then, you could make sure that you didn't put any more air in.

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[BoB-]

Over-pumping your rifle can get unreal velocity, not to be too graphic here, but I've hunted using this, and the pellet bore a hole completly through a rabbits head, killing it almost instantly.

I was using pointed feild game pellets.

[zaibatsu]

Hehe, you shouldn't use pointed pellets either, if they are pointed sharply then it is easily damaged, and ones that aren't pointed sharply have little over ones that are domed. At the higher velocities, and at reasonably close range, try hollow points, supposed to expand fairly well at high power and close range. Airgun pellets are very interesting things... But whatever works

[Anthony]

The only thing with over pumping a rifle that much is one time you might do it and the seals will blow and you'll be "aw shucks!"http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

If the pellet went straight through the rabbit's head then some of it's energy was wasted. Only if the target (wabbit) stops the pellet is all it's energy utilised and maximum damage done. For this you want pellets that expand, such as Zaibatsu said, hollow points or even the nice cheap flat heads which tend to deliver the largest shock damage which makes things drop stone dead even if not hit in the head.

Which model is your Daisy rifle? I think many of them are available over here, might make a nice plinking gun.

[BoB-]

I dont really mind the risk of blowing the seals because the rifle was bought "spur of the moment" because it was only $40.00

heres a pic:
http://www.airgunstore.com/RIFLES/DMOD856.JPG

I use feild pellets because of there increased penetration in this cheap ass gun, its M/V being 650fps.

[PYRO500]

I have that same pellet gun, I took the side panel off and removed the safety and lubricated all the internals woth a syringe and have it in good working order and I can get it to shoot after many pumps. I once pumped it to 65 pumps, I got 2 shots 1 strong 1 weak so there is a limit to the power, possibly a flow restrictor, maybee it could be removed if you knew what you were doing.

[Anthony]

I take it the MV is 650fps at 10 pumps? If you're pumping it 20 odd times then it'll likely be a lot higherhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

PYRO500, I don't think it's a flow restrictor, more an inherent flow restriction as only so much air can escape in the time the valve stays open. A stronger hammer spring/heavier hammer may help but you'll reach a point where to get any more MV you'd need a longer barrel.

[zaibatsu]

I could probably post some basic figures for air reservoir volume against pressure that will tell ou (roughly) what ftlb it should be doing if you all want, although this varies from gun to gun obviously. 650fps in .22 (if its .22) is pretty crap for a US airgun, if it was doing about 1000fps that'd be a lot nicer http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif