Improvised Grenades

[Viper4403]

I was tooling around the other day with some empty CO2 cylinders, and got to thinking about various ways to make grenades in the
home workshop.

Anybody have any experiences to share in this area?

I have read the NBK2000 file on those nice pull-ring grenades, but I was looking for something smaller.

Presently I plan to experiment with the CO2 shells.

What might be the best way to attach some shrapnel pieces to the outer casing?

Also, I've got a pretty good system of hollowing the tip out, but what are some common items I can stuff down into the tube with the blackpowder?

I was thinking of BBs or perhaps even bits of tacks, but just want to make sure that it's the best option.


Viper4403

(Yes, I've read the archives)

(You NEED to STOP with the hitting the return button at the end of every line. Just type normally, and hit the return ONLY at the END of a paragraph.

There used to be another person here who did that too, and I deleted him. Unless you want to join him in the void, stop. Unless you WERE him....NBK2000)



[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited June 07, 2001).]

[Agent Blak]

You could use something like Plaster and/ Marbles/3/8" ball barrings. I wouldn't advise mixing shapnel in with you explosive(Especially if LE). what do yo plan on using HE or LE?

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A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[Viper4403]

NBK2000 :

Sorry, it was habit. I got used to some forums where you must side-scroll to see the text in its entirety. I will refrain from doing this in the future.


Viper4403

[Viper4403]

I plan on using blackpowder as my explosive compound. If I can find any at the local gun store then I will use that, otherwise I might make my own.

I am open to other suggestions.

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Viper4403

[kingspaz]

Do you realise how hard it is to make good homemade blackpowder? I made my own (in my dream http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif) using homemade charcoal and KNO3 using the CIA method but using acetone instead of alcohol. It burns fast enough for fuses but not fast enough to explode any container such as a CO2 cartridge. If you do make, when its dry I recomend adding a little graphite powder as it protects the powder from moisture, helps stop caking and improves the burn rate.

[Viper4403]

I'll probably be using commercial-grade blackpowder, the store will probably have it. I'll use the finest grain available so as to ensure a fast burn rate. I can get graphite at the local hardware store I suppose.

Thanks.

Viper4403

[Foodos]

Shrapenel is going to work better on the outside, not the inside in any case. Adding the shit on the inside makes it so you have that much less power to thrust the shrapanel out. You could tape, or weld, or any number of ways to place stuff on the outside, but with a cO2 canister do you need more? The best way I can think of is Feticidal Fantasies little simple idea of getting a jar of shrapanel, and putting the charge in the center.

[kingspaz]

i use the graphite pencils from art stores because you can choose the grade u get it in. eg. 2b, 5b, i think 8b is the best cos its soft as fuck.

[EP]

Putting shrapnel inside the co2 cardridge would be stupid. Just a) tape ball bearings/short screws to the outside or b) use a thin cardboard tube larger than the cartridge, put the cartridge in the middle and fill around it.

[skunkdude]

you could coat the CO2 canister in a strong glue and then leave it in a jar full of bb's over night. when you take it out in the morning you will (hopefuly) have a bb covered cartridge.

[Viper4403]

That glue sounds like a good idea. It might be similar to a normal grenade with the fragmentation shell on the outer casing.

Thanks, any more ideas?

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Viper4403

[Mad Dog]

In my dream I used a CO2 container full of smokeless powder and used scotch tape to tape some nails outside the container. I also did the BBs and glue way, and if you are going to do it with BBs I sagest giving it a bit more glue over the BBs so thay will be more secure. You can combine the two methods nails and BBs fore most shrapnel and tray using something more powerful then BP.

P.S. remember nails will remain deadly over a long distance 100-150m.



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If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?

[Viper4403]

I will be getting blackpowder for my new confederate .44 revolver anyways, is why I am considering the use of blackpowder. I am open to other specific suggestions however if someone has any.

What I will probably end up doing is using a strong glue (perhaps epoxy resin) as a coating and then covering with BBs or small ball bearings, then painting over the whole thing in a dark color to hide the chrome.

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Viper4403

[nbk2000]

I really have to wonder about the practicality of using COBs as a grenade.

Firstly, the size is very small, holding maybe a half ounce of BP. A half ounce of High Explosive would be negliable, let alone a very Low Explosive like BP.

Second, the fuse is exposed to water, bending, the light from igniting could be seen, etc.

Third, the case breaks into several large pieces, not effectivly fragmenting. Gluing BBs to the outside won't help either since there isn't enough force from a BP explosion to break them loose and scatter them with sufficent force to penetrate. Only high explosives can do that.

You could use high explosives inside, but then you'd need a detonator and that'd take up a lot of the little space there is for the explosive. Using a flame sensitive primary like AP would work, but then there's the risk of spontaneous explosion while you're carrying it. That's already happen to one member here in his pants pocket.

So basically, anything less than 2 ounces of high explosive with a detonator to set it off isn't effective or safe.



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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[Viper4403]

Hmmm...

What about Acetone Peroxide (AP)? Would it set off with the proper force to throw afew chunks of shrapnel?

Also, what primary (HE) compounds would be relatively easy to make, and work with sufficient quantities in a small amount such as that?

[DarkAngel]

AP would certainly let the COB (COB=Co2BOMB)explode in very little and maybe a few larger pieces,But it's just to dangerous to use AP or another primary explosive such as HMTD
You probably won't find something sufficient for it

I know you wan't to make something out of the Co2 cartridges because you have them lie in your house,but for grenades really take something more use full just make a few crater makers and buy something as PVC pipe

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DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[Mr Cool]

Why not use a wide cardboard tube as the conatainer, and fill it with a castable HE such as TNP/DNT, or a plastique like ANNM/NC, with loads of ball bearing in it (maybe 50% of the volume of the container could be ball bearings). Then set it off with a #8 or equivalent. I think that would work pretty well.

[Heavy Recoil]

About shrapnal inside the explosive, shrapnal mixed with the charge wastes space. the whole of the explosive makes the power, b.b.s will, in the mix of explosives, have the explosives forces all around it, it wont go very far if at all, compared to shrapnal outside the charge, it waste space. Heres an experiment to try, if you are sill in doubt, fill a ballon with air and a bb, try to pop it while the bb is in the air not touching the side of the ballon. try it again but with the bb on the bottom of the inside of the ballon, the latter will go much farther. if you dont belive it, try it.

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Know the enemy, know yourself;your victory will never be endangered. SUN TZU

[DarkAngel]

Heavy Recoil:That's a useless example if you ask me

But your right that shrapnel inside the explosive can be a waste of space,certainly for small amounts of explosive

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DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[BaDSeeD]

If possible, I'd like to change the direction of this post a little. Regardless of what method you use for containing your grenade. And however you create your shrapnel. Whether you have a partially fragmented case (eg. use and angle grinder to cut groves into a metal pipe), or you add shrapnel to the case (gluing BB's, nails, nuts, bolts, etc to the outside), the problem here is the explosive used inside.

Understand that if anyone were to, forwhatever reason, be in need of a hand grenade (homeland invasion..lol), you would simply not have the time to make one and then use it. The only way to prepare for this need, is to make them, stockpile them, and store them, for whenever this need might arise.

This requires two things. A homemade explosive, and a homemade detonator that won't degrade into an unstable, or ineffective substance. Whatever is used, would need a fairly long shelf life.

Can we discuss what explosives can be manufactured with these properties, or ways to store them (eg. airtight storage, frozen, etc) to get this kind of longevity?

I think this is the direction we should head, as this can not only be applied to hand grenades, but also mortars, rockets, land mines, etc etc.

I don't think a question like this has ever been answered on the forum.... well for as long as i can remember anyhow.




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BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.

[nbk2000]

It certainly shows forethought to plan for a long term storage of explosive weapons, aside from the inherent legal risk of storing them for years.

But, in response to the question, RDX, PETN, nitroglycerin gelled with nitrocellulose and 1% of calcium carbonate, ANNM in binary storage, Picric Acid in glass or plastic, Mercury Fulminate, Nitrocellulose (wet), and that's probably about it for "homemade" type explosives.

Storage conditions are important too. Constant cool temperature and humidity, no exposure to sunlight or air, all needed for long storage life.

Plastic or glass bottles can be filled completely (to exclude air) and stored in a root cellar or buried in a deep, dry hole inside a sealed box to protect it from heat and light.

It would be best to store the assembled weapons unloaded, with the explosive charges seperate from the detonators, all ready for assembly in a few minutes. Otherwise you're asking for an unexpected blast.


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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[Mexican Pizza]

damn dude, do you have a death wish? messing with that kinda sh*t will get you seriously hurt. and why would you want to make gernades anyways? they are just too dangerous if you ask me....

[BaDSeeD]

Thank you NBK, now that was helpful. And i understand the bit about the detonators and the explosive filler. Screwing on a detonator that is kept in a seperate cache would take a minimal amount of time, and increase the saftey of the storage substantially.

As to the last response. A hand grenade is no more dangerous than the explosives we all discuss on this board. What is the point of having any kind of device at hand, if you don't have the explosive to make it functional? Thats about as handy as a rifle with no ammo. And one of my favorite sayings

Do you know what a gun without ammo is?
A club.

The same applies to any other improvised weapon that requires an explosive charge.



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BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.

[Anthony]

Will NM last 10 years in storage? I'd also heard it decomposes by itself, or is this just in the presence of light? What exactly stops storage of ANNM? Aside from seperation, why is it unsuitable?

Double Base Smokeless Powder should last for ever in storage, it's apparently stable, powerful and cap sensitive.

Would an ammo box be a good storage container? They're strong, water and air tight and available cheap from military surplus.

[Mr Cool]

For a primary try DDNP. It's not too hard to make, and is worth the extra effort if you ask me. It'll store for a long time, and is powerful. Or just make up a batch of HMTD and fill the detonators when you need to (a few weeks or so before would be OK).
EGDN is apparently better in storage than NG, and will also gel NC. You can then mix in HE's such as TNT, TeNN, RDX, PETN etc to form explosives with plastc properties, that will be very easy to load. Sealing the container will prevent evapouration of the EGDN.
But if you're going to make lots and stockpile them, AN based HE's would be better due to their low cost and ease of preparation. Maybe something with AN (75%), Al (10%), a bit of wax (5%), and DNT (10%). That should work pretty well, be stable and easily detonatable. Or something like C-1. Easy to make, not extremely costly, stable, cap sensitive, and easy to handle and load.
Or try gelling NM with NC, and adding lots of TNP. Someone here said that TNP was very soluble in NM, and it will make it cap sensitive. This should be an interesting explosive.
I'd avoid powders, they're harder to load to high densities.

Yes, when the shrapnel is in the explosive, the pressure is equal all around. But the pressure only equalises by going outwards, and they will go fast.
If you don't believe me fill a pipe with TNP or other HE and loads of BB's, and detonate it. They'll fly. But yes, it would be better to have them all on the outside from the point of view of range, it's just harder unless you weaken a metal case to make shrapnel.

[EventHorizon]

Sorry to bring up an old post, but it hit on a few questions I had.

I had an idea to fill a plastic container with ANNM, making a cap well and a hole in the container with a thin, ~1/32", polyethylene cover under the hole and completely seal it. This would be so that when you wanted to use it, just slit the poly, insert the cap and seal it with some kind of compound (window caulking, 2 part 5min epoxy putty, blue tack, etc.). I'm just wondering about the "shelf life" of ANNM. As far as I know, the only reason ANNM becomes weaker with storage is because of moisture.

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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Sex at age 90 is like trying to shoot pool with a rope." George Burns
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[BoB-]

For long storage life "grenades" that can be assembled in minutes, you cant go wrong with low explosives, the mix of double-based smokeless powders, and black powders used by the unabomber killed 3 people, my memory sucks, but I think he was using lines of nails taped to the outside of the pipebombs.



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Teamwork is essential.
It lets you to blame someone else.

[EventHorizon]

I'm more interested in the shelf life of ANNM when completely sealed from air/moisture. A 'friend' would like to assemble some charges so when they get the itch for a nice detonation they can grab a charge and go. 'They' have made and stored small film can size charges for several weeks but saw a noticable decrease in power from fresh ones. Does anyone know of someone who has made and stored ANNM in sealed PVC casings for an extended period of time, say several months?

As far as grenades are concerned, if someone were to make one it would be best to use sling shot ammo aligned on tape and wrapped around a PVC charge of HE.


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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[nbk2000]

I'm seeing a PVC pipe with removable end caps sealed with wax. The AN is sealed inside a plastic bag, with the NM also in a seperate plastic bag within the AN bag.

The detonator is in one end, inside of the AN, the other end holds the NM.

To use, remove a cap, puncture the NM bag with an ice pick, replace the cap, and by the time one gets to the site, it'll have mixed into ANNM.

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[10fingers]

How about Amatol, a mixture of TNT and AN. I would think that the TNT would seal the AN from moisture. It has been used in the military so it must have storage stability.
Double base smokeless powder would also be good. Being in the form of a grained powder I don't think you could achieve good density. Also I read somewhere that graphite is added to smokeless powders to prevent detonation in the barrel of a gun. Supposedley the graphite reflects the infrared radiation.

[EventHorizon]

What kind of power would DBSP acheive when initiated via cap when turned into a liquid and successively poured into a container (shrinks when drying) letting the acetone evaporate?

Thanks all.

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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[nbk2000]

Equal to, or greater than, TNT. BTW, if you use camphor instead of acteone, you can make a plastic form of NC. The original celluloid plastic used eakly nitrated NC, but I'm sure if you used highly nitrated NC, that you'd be able to form solid plastic charges that'd be highly explosive.

Below is a quick OCR'd copy of the original US patent #105,338.

================================================== ==============

Our invention consists, first, of so preparing pyroxyline that pigments and other substances in a powdered condition can be easily and thoroughly mixed therewith before the pyroxy line is subjected to the action of. a solvent; secondly, of mixing with the pyroxyline so prepared any desirable pigment, coloring matter, or other material, and also any substance in a powdered state which may be vaporized or liquefied and converted into a solvent of pyroxyline by the application of beat; and,. thirdly, of -subjecting the compound so made to heavy pressure w hile heated; so that the least practicable proportion of solvent may be used in the production of solid 'collodion and its compounds.

The following is a description of our process: First, we prepare the pyroxyline by grinding it in water until it is reduced to a fine pulp by mcaus of. a machine similar to those employed in grinding paper-pulp. Second, any suitable white or coloring pigment or dyes, when desired, are then mixed and thoroughly ground with the pyroxyline. pulp, or any powdered or granulated material is incorporated that may be adapted, to the purpose of the manufacture. While the ground pulp is still wet we mix therewith finely-pulverized gum-camphor in about.the proportions of one part (by weight) of the camphor to two parts of the pyroxyliue when in a dry state. These proportions may -be somewhat varied with good results: The gum-camphor may be comminuted by grinding in water, by pounding, or rolling; or, if preferred, the camphor may be dissolved in alcohol or spirits of wine, and then precipitated by adding water, tho alcohol leaving the camphor and uniting with the water, when both the alcohol and the water may be drawn off, leaving the camphor in a very finelydivided state. After the powdered camphor is thoroughly mixed with the wet pyroxyline pulp and the other ingredients, we. expel the water as far sae possible by straining the mixture and subjecting it to an immense pressure in a perforated vessel. This leaves the mixture in a. comparatively solid and dry state, but containing sufficient moisture to

prevent the pyroxyline from burning or exploding during the remaining process. Third, the mixture is then placed in a mold of any appropriate form, which is heated by steam or by any convenient method, to from 1500 to 3()00 Fahrenheit, to suit the proportion of camphor and the size of the mass, and is subjected to.a heavy pressure in a hydraulic or other press. The heat, according to the degree used, vaporizes or liquefies the camphor, and thus converts it into. a solvent of the pyroxyline. By introducing the solvent in the manner here described, and using heat to make the solventactive, and pressure to force it into intimate contact every particle of the pyroxy. line, we are able to use a less proportion of this or any solvent which depends upon heat for its activity-than has ever been known heretofore. After keeping the mixture under beat and pressure long enough to complete the soivent actioa throughout the rtiass it is cooled while still under pressure, and them taken out of. the mold. The product is a solid about the consistency of sole-leather, but which subsequently becomes as bard as horn or bone by the evaporation of the camphor. Before the camphor is evaporated the material is easily softened by. heat, and may be molded into any desirable form, which neither changes nor appreciably shrinks- in bardening.

We are aware that camphor made into a solution with alcohol or other solvents of camphor lras been used in a liquid state as a solvent of xyloidiue. Such use of camphor as a solvent of pyroxgline we disclaim.

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[SofaKing]

Nails would make good shrapnel, the finishing kind with small heads would be best. Small (equal to diameter) lenghs of rebar would be best, you could harden them too for added penetration or drill and fill with a poison (ricin) to be especially visous (sp).

Couldn't you use RDX (if you can get it) straight and some from of high temp incendiary ignition system to forgo the use of primarys. That way no priming needed and ther're stored ready to use.

What about firebombs ala the saxon video, maybe improved upon a bit. Use ether(nbk's idea) for the fuel and maybe a better low explosive (maybe not), and a grenade style ignition as opossed to the fuse.

Another idea is HCN grenades (also saxon) they could easily have as much killing power and store nicely. They could be made to explode like a pressure bottle device, wich would create a instant cloud that disperses quickly (so you don't get dead) but the cynaide salt (Na or K) might not all be converted to gas. Some sort of delay is a must. You might even be able to make small bag type ones (familiar with bomb bags ?) just sqeeze the small inner bag and then be somewhere else.

That's all I got for now.

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With Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom