Shaped Charges

[Demolition]

Lets just say that if I wanted to blow a door open could you place a High Explosive in a piece of thick angleline which then would be taped near the lock and set off.The thick angleline would direct the force of the explosion momentarily towards the lock and blow the door open.Could ANNM be used as the explosive?Has anyone ever tried this and if so what was the result.I am going to experiment with this just as soon as I get some Nitromethane.
Demolition



[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited February 28, 2001).]

[nbk2000]

What you've described isn't a shaped charge, rather a tamped charge.

A shaped charge would be the explosive on the outside of the angle iron, directing the vaporized metal into the target.

A tamped charge is were a mass of material temporarily resists the explosives force long enough for the majority of the force to be directed into the target.

If you use an angle iron as tamper it will fly off fast as a bullet and be more of a hazard to you than to the door. Here's a US patent # for an easy to make tamper that disintegrates into nothing while effectively directing the explosive force.

4,628,819 Disintegrating tamper mass

Go to http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-bool.html and enter the above number with no commas, setting field for "patent numbers" and date to "all years".

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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

[Demolition]

Thanks nbk, http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
Demolition

[blackadder]

I think that ANNM would be better used in large quantities, to blow the door down. If you wanted to take out the hinges, couldn't you use AP?

[Agent Blak]

If you were trying to go through a "Dead Bolt" could you not just "Cheese some Cordite(Det-Cord)" around thelock with the asistance of some duct tape. you could use det cord to cut the hinges off the door.
Just and Idea.

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A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[Demolition]

I was just wondering if 'Plaster of Paris' could be used as the material surrounding the high explosive in tamped charges?When set off would it turn to dust but still momentarily direct the blast to open the door?All help is greatly appreciated.
Demolition

[nbk2000]

You could use just Plaster, but the patent uses the plaster just as a binder for the steel media which provides the mass needed to resist the explosion.

Plaster by itself is very light so it may not provide enough mass to adequately direct the explosives force.

If you can, buy a sack of lead shot of the smallest size, something like sand. That would be perfect for using in the disintegrating tamper.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

[Foxtrot83]

Sounds like your trying to plan an armoured truck heist (put the ANNM on the door we got 3 secs., Boooom. Were in, were in, go, go, go...), but aren't we all. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif

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~Semper Fi~
Foxtrot83

[Foodos]

Heat had a nice tactic for taking an armoured car, ramming it with a diself truck...muahahah

that was a good movie btw

[SofaKing]

What about sandbags ? Sure are easy enough.

[Foxtrot83]

Sandbags makes an excellent tamp but not for a door (depending on position). He'd have to hold it up with his hands or something similiar which would take too much time to set up.

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~Semper Fi~
Foxtrot83

[blackadder]

If you think about it, it could be done pretty fast, if he wanted to break in to somewhere quickly.

He would have previously made the charge with duct tape stuck to it in a fashion that all he had to to was put the charge against the door. He would go up to the door and put the charge to the bottom hinge of it, put a sandbag over it, and then light fuse, get back. I don't think that he would have to hold the sandbag in place, that could be dangerous anyway.

Oh yeah, and there's always another way in to a place. You could always pick the door's lock, or kick the door down, or go through a window, smash a window, etc. As someone once said, you don't have to do everything with explosives (wiping you're arse with AP).

[This message has been edited by blackadder (edited March 06, 2001).]

[SATANIC]

check the condition of the door. most residential and many commecial premises have wooden framed doors. the easiest way in here would be a sledge hammer. otherwise a window would definately be easy.

[sadsakjoel]

OK demolition, what the fucks happening? The weir?

[Demolition]

I'm thinking maybe the toilet block.The weir sounds good,but knowing my luck some homeless guy would probably get washed away down stream and drown. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Demolition

[Ctrl_C]

must we use high expolsives for everything? (err...dont answer that) just get an oxy-acetylene torch and cut the hinges off. safe, proven, effective...

[blackadder]

or pick the lock

[SMAG 12B/E5]

If you still want to try a liniar shaped charge, DuPont sells a product once called Data Sheet, PETN with an elastoplastic binder in 1/4 by 4 inch configueration. Strips can be cut and laminated over lengths of copper tubing creating a shaped charge effect. The ends of the tubing can be capped, the tube pressurized, creating a unit suitable for underwater work. I am certain that a suitable improvised version of this system is well within the capabilities of members of this group.
Note: I have used 60 grain/ft detonating cord for various activities. Don't overestimate it's strength. There are too myths about det cord floating around.

[SMAG 12B/E5]

Your question is too general. There are too many variables...Steel alloy...thickness...configueration and...tamping...detonating cord strength...number of lays or wraps. In breaching doors, I always "sweeten" the reinforced areas with C-4.

[shady mutha]

Shaped charges can be subdivided into three classifications:conical shaped charges;linear shaped charges;flexible linear shaped charges.The subdivisions have evolved as a result of their particular applications.They were first analyzed and tested in 1888 by Charles E Monroe.
The housing or sheath and the cavity liner may be of one homogeneous material.Cavity liners are most often made of copper,lead,silver,and alumium.Thier primary purpose is to supply a source of heavy molecules that can be accelerated toward the target by the high pressure and shock waves generated by the high or secondary explosive core.RDX PETN HNS,and DIPAM are the most often used core explosives.upon impact with the target,these high-velocity molecules transfer tremendous amounts of kinetic energy to the target,causing it to deform.Comparative tests have shown that when all other parameters are equal,the performance of a shaped charge can be increased or decreased by increasing or decreasing the density of the liner material.The angle of the cavity liner varies between 45 and 90 degrees and it too is dependent upon the shaped-charge application.The interaction of the cavity liner's wall thickness,wall taper,and radius of the apex all affect performance.

[shady mutha]

The explosive phenomenon is generally described as the interaction the detonation products and cavity liner material emanating at high velocity from a shaped charge as the explosive detonates.The detonation releases large quantities of gas almost instantaneously under extreme pressure-as much as several millions of pounds per square inch.The shock waves emanating from the lower portion of a shaped charge converge at a point on the charge centerline and cause an extreme concentration of pressure along the axis of convergence.These directed shock waves,together with the products of explosive decomposition and the metal molecules from the cavity liner,form the primary cutting action-the jet.
Deformation of the target material begins within 1 microsecond after the passage of the detonation front.The shock waves produced by the expanding gases and the cavity liner material emanating from the lower portion of the shaped charge are converging,a jet of high velocity cavity liner molecules is forming and penetration of the target is beginning.When a shaped charge is detonated on a metal target,the jet excerts an extremely concentrated force over a very small area.This force causes the metal to be pushed out of the way of the advancing jet by plastic flow.

[Jumala]

At this site are some interesting pics of chaped charges (tank-fist warheads).

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust1.htm

[simply RED]

I tried a shaped charge with nitroglycerine gelled with nitrocellulose. The diamter of the cone was 26mm. The cone angle was 45degrees. The cone was made from steel sheet 0,5mm thick. The whole charge wasn't full of nitrogelly. It covered the cone and maybe 3-4mm above it. The remaining place in the charge was full of ap putty. I detonated it from the top with homemade N8 equivalent.
I tried it on 6-7mm steel and it didn't penetrated it.(it only punctured it not very good) (the outstand was about 1, 1/2 diameters of the cone). My question is, have someone succesufully made a shaped charge which penetrated 2-3 cm steel without beeing more than 100mm in diameter? I will appreciate if you tell me a real construction which works and i can easily copy.(is it necessary to use RDX,PETN of octogen or the nitroglycerine can also work)?

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LIFE SUCKS... DON'T LET IT BITE!!!

[Mick]

the best backing "shield" for a tamped charge would be a bag of water (like a plastic shopping bag)

[SafetyLast]

Yeah Mick I have read about using the bag of water in a tamp charge in the Tom Clancy
book "Marine",it was a saline i.v. bag secured inside of a coffee can and a couple ounces of C-4 behind it.
This type of tamped charge would be easier and less time consuming to construct, however I think what you mean is to have an
explosive filled cavity in a bowl shaped bag filled with water, this way upon detonation the explosive force is directed at the target and the bag of water disintegrates with no dangerous fragments. Only problem with that is that less force is transferred to the target than in the case of using a stronger charge body such as thin aluminum or copper.
main way to avoid getting hit by fragments is to stay down out of the fragmentation area (or "cone" as I call it), to not be in line of sight with it, and have a long enough fuse (I never reccomend remote detonation unless your dealing with very large ammounts of HE) <-- too expensive for what we are dealing with here.

[SATANIC]

i think the water would absorb too much of the explosives power, the navy might soon be using water to pack explosives in, as it absorbs so much heat, and because when detonated, the force is absorbed by the water which travels very fast but still does no damage. i have an article from new scientist about it, that i might scan later.

[Mick]

the explosive goes in all directions the water doesn't absorb it, it merely acts a deflection shield.

a piece of angle iron would work just as well as water IF you could secure it properly to the door - however you can't do this with out alot of screwing around.

if you put a charge under water,
you get a real nice shock wave because the water doesn't absorb the presure coming from the explosive(because it can't, you can't compress water) so what you end up with is more confinment.

example, put 50g charge of AP in a bucket of water and detonate it. what happens? the bucket gets blowen to shit.
put 50g charge of AP in a bucket of sand and detonate it. what happens? sand blows up out of the bucket, and the bucket may split - but thats it.
reason being is sand will compress and absorb most of the shockwave because of all the air trapped between the particles of sand.

therefore, water is better then sand because the force from the charge will bounce off the water back into the door.

[xtreme]

Hi all

I dont want to start a new topic because I'am "to young" on this webforum. I found some topics about Shaped Charges, but the best place for this I think was allready locked :confused:

I going to test a small Linear Shaped Charge tomorrow.
I want use AP als the charge-explosive because I haven't stuff like RDX or TNT. The goal is not to cut a thick plate of steel....but just a thin one (1....1.5 mm) The goal for my test is to make a straight cut in the plate. Just watching of this is possible with te stuff I have.

For more information/foto's:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/</a>
(copy and paste URL in browser)

First I planned to detonated the charge today......but my cell for the photocamera goes empty :(
Tommorow I buy a new cell for my photocamera. I want to film the explosion and make pictures of the results.

I hope I come with some positive results...
commands are welcome.....

sorry for my bad english :rolleyes:

[Tyler_Durden]

looks good. if possible, can you get pics of what you are cutting, before and after?

also, how did you make/get the copper liner and that square tube??

[xtreme]

I get all the materials straight from the shop.
I have only to cut-out the opening under the liner.

Before detonation I make pictures of every object and the "Ready to Go" setup. And I alway's make pictures of the peaces (fragments) I can find after detonation. The movie of the explosion will pure of quality because this is an extra option on my PHOTOcamera. This will be a simple quicktime movie.

[E7]

i'm just thinking out loud, but wouldn't you be able to replace the square tube with the disentigrating tamper mass described above thus compounding the benefits of the tamped charge and the shaped charge? I think i need to do some testing.

[Anthony]

I must admit, that cut ally box section and brass angle does make for a very presentable finished product. I do wonder if the 90* angle of the brass will be effective though.

Also, don't forget your standoff!

[xtreme]

Ok.....Linear Shaped Charge test done

Results......hmmmmmmm, not as expected....but nice (some interesting results) for first time, I think :) <a href="http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/</a>

* There is a quicktime movie of detonation (pure quality...used just the extra option of PHOTOcamera to record quicktime movie)

The charge wash filled with 20 gram AP (little pressed....not realy much because....we all no why <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

Plate to be cut: 3 plates metal 0.8mm (2.4 mm total)

De explosion sounds differend compared with my "normal" AP detonations.
It sounds more like APAN but more powerfull.

The plates.....just welded. Only on the upper plate I think the liner hits it when I look the traces on it.
The book under plate.....nice interesting 3 (?!?!) cuts.
The stone (hard beton, not easy to brake) under book......destroyed !

It looks that the power of the blow wash not directed on the plate but
much lower.

Ok.....next time.
I think that I use real cupper inplace of brass what is much harder.
I thing I make the corner of V-Shape smaller then the 90 degrades I used now.
(must pictures I see of LSC used a 90 deg. corner :confused: )

So....If you have some tips, command, experience.....please, shared it with us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[nbk2000]

I couldn't download the movie, but did get all the pictures.

Some comments, in no particular order:

Brass is a poor material for a liner. You want materials that are soft and malleable. Aluminium (soda can), lead, or unannealed (soft) copper. Brass and steel are unsuitable, being too "hard".

The liner was too thick. It seems it's projecting as a solid slug, rather than liquifying into a cutting jet. THIN is the key. A millimeter (under 0.01") is good. You can only use thick liners if you have enough explosive behind them to overcome the resistance.

I don't see anything wrong with the liner angle, just the material and thickness of it.

AP is a poor choice for any kind of cutting charge. It just doesn't have the VOD needed. Anything below 7,000 m/s is too slow. And AP is only around 5,500 m/s. Picric acid or TNT is the minimum I'd use. I don't think even ANNM would be suitable for an LSC.

The target (metal plates) was only dented, and not cut, probably because it was sitting on a flexible material that absorbed the impact. The book absorbed the majority of the shock, allowing the plates to remain intact, while transferring that shock to the inflexible stone which shattered.

Try the next test with the target sitting directly on the stone. Then the plates should be torn, if not cut.

Did you plasticize the AP? Because it's obviously not a simple compressed powder sitting with the ends open.

Uniformity of explosive density is VERY important! Any voids, gaps, or variations causes changes in the shock front, which (in turn) causes changes in the jet formation which results in failure.

Look in the topic "NEW LSC DESIGN" (God, I hate ALL CAPS! :mad: ) where I link to a precision LSC design manual written by the experts at the US governments weapons labs. They go into great detail about all the variations of LSC design. Read it and learn from the masters. If the link's dead, download the '99 High Explosives archive PDF from the Forum FTP. I included it in there.

I noticed that one plate (presumably the top one) was partially cut for half it's length. LSC's have a "start up" distance, which is at least 3-5cm, during which the shock front transitions from a radial to planular form. Until it does this, there's no real jet formation, so you need to account for this by making your charges a bit longer than the intended cut.

Obviously yours was, but it's using a lower velocity explosive, so the start up distance is increased.

Pick a solid target next time. Multiple plates is equivalent to attacking laminated armor. Same thing with spaced plates. To test an LSC, you need a homogenous target.

And make it easier on yourself when you first start out. Use soft aluminum. You'll be more encouraged to keep experimenting by a deep gouge in a soft target, then a thin scratch in a tough one. :D

I like the angle in box pictures. Saves me from having to make them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Keep blasting.

[xtreme]

Thanks nbk2000,

That's a lot of usefull information ! :)

I don't have all the chemicals to make HE with VOD's over 7000 m/s (jet :) ) :(
I think of trying making HDN (HexamineDiNitrate).
Is HDN better for LSC than AP ?
And after making HDN I can give a try to make RDX with distilled HNO3 (have 65% and want to concentrate this to ....99%, I hope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

I did not plasticize AP jet. I am buzzy top make the binder from blu-tak but it takes some time to vaporate the gasoline.
The caps of the LSC where closed with a 2 component stuff what becomes very hard in a short time (10 minutes) and the AP self a little pressed (scarry to press the AP to much)

Next time.....thin cupper liner, target of one aluminum plate, target resting directly on stone (hard surface) and......perhaps a better charge than AP

many thanks !
To be continued..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Mr Cool]

I couldn't download the movie either, apparently I don't have a suitable decompressor or something. So my fault, not yours I think.

It does look very nice, although I am also a bit worried about the angle. It should work, but smaller would be better. I'd use about 50*, but then it wouldn't fit in the other thing and make that nice looking finished product.

I'm sure the main problem would be the lightly compressed CTAP, I doubt it had more than 3.5-4 km/sec VoD. HDN might work, but it's not very easy to detonate. ANNM would be best for those with limited chems., it can get up to around 6.5 km/sec and is easy to press into a uniform charge. Easy to detonate too. It'd certainly be better than anything you can do with CTAP, and the ingredients can normally be found with a bit of looking. RDX would be great if you can make it, or NG or almost any nitrate ester. But the explosive is definitely your main problem.

[xtreme]

Mr Cool

Thanks for info

Yes, a smaller shape will not fit into the material I used now.
And most pictures I see of LINEAR Shaped Charges are something like 90%
Only for Round Shaped Charges I read much of the 42% angle

This week I go to try to make HDN and/or RDX and searching for cupperplate for the liner

I made an AVI-file of the (quicktime) movie.
It's much bigger compared with the quicktime and I have not much space by geocities. I have plenty space on my own servers.....but that makes it a little to easy to find my location :)

The AVI-Movie (sorry....pure quality) :http://www.geocities.com/mail2xtreme/ShapedCharges/LSC_20gramAP.avi

[AfterRain]

I've found a nice lil .gif movie of how the SC works when its exploded

<a href="http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/animation/explode/shaped.html" target="_blank">http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/animation/explode/shaped.html</a>

<img src="http://www.logwell.com/tech/shot/img10.gif" alt=" - " />

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: AfterRain ]</small>

[Chris Shiherlis]

Xtreme compliments on your LSC, it´s fuckin´ pretty.
If you had used a secondary high explosive you probably had made a very effective LSC.
Even with that brass liner, which is not such a bad choice after all. There are even LSC´s made with iron liners (go to the topic "Busting my safe"; this guy McCoy which is apparently such a pain in the ass he was banned by NBK :) gave a link to a few usefull sites e.g. a site which show a LSC called Resaflex, made from a iron liner and DBSP :) ).
Of course lead, copper or aluminium liners are better, that is, they need less powerfull explosives to produce a jet. I would recommend a aluminium liner about 1mm thick, 90 degree angle: easy to find, cheap and easily formed jet. I use it too, it penetrates at least 4mm construction steel using a NM explosive, about 250 gram/meter (and thicker aluminium decreases the penetration greatly just as a 1mm brass liner)
But using AP with a ´low´ VoD and power is useless. It won´t produce a jet out of ANY liner (not even out of aluminium foil).

So the effects produced by your first LSC are just.......caused by the Monroe effect. And maybe some piercing by fragments. I´m sorry to say. But no jet or slug is formed at all, just fragments and the Monroe effect (And the Monroe effect is even weakened by the liner: should you have used a plastic liner just to get the V-shape the effects on the metal plates would have been greater).

And the strange effects on the book are caused also just like the Monroe effect by colliding shockwaves, reenforcing each other at some points (getting concentrated at some points). And subsequently fracturing/shearing (not cutting) the target at specific points. Apparently your set up creates 3 points at which the shockwaves get concentrated (just like with shockwave refraction tape SRT or fracture tape).

And the explosives suitable: any secondary high explosive: TNT, RDX, DBSP and ALSO ANNM. The NM explosives all have a high VoD and great power. Many exceed the power and VoD of TNT.
The only drawback of using ANNM is that the AN crystals produce maybe some voids/airgaps in the explosive composition, which should be avoided if possible, but are not much of a problem anyhow. So.....

And the "start up" problem of LSC´s NBK mentions, got nothing to do with the AP. AP produces no jet what so ever so there is no start up distance.
The start up distance is the distance at which the jet reaches it´s maximum penetration. And this is about after 10 cm. The first 10cm when a jet IS produced (with a real LSC) and the penetration into the steel target slowly increases to 100 %. It got something to do with the shockwave angle of the explosive hitting the liner, and subsequently the angle and speed of the jet produced. No jet, no cutting effect, no start up effect (as with AP).

And just some questions: why use a blasting cap if you use AP?
And the two component stuff you use to cap your LSC with, doesn´t it get hot when it hardens? (with the danger of setting the AP off).
And why not use a plastic container instead of aluminium? Saves a lot of shrapnel coming your way :) .

Anyway, I really am looking forward to your next experiment. Use a real explosive and you will enjoy it.

(Watch it with the innuendo's there Chris. Bottle washers are anything but irreplaceable here. NBK)

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[xtreme]

My second LSC is underway (almost ready)
I have a much better liner, very thin soft copper (36 Gauge/ .005)
I put this on a 90 deg. plastic corner (1.5 x 1.5) because the copper alone is to easy to bend.

The secundairy charge will be much better too: ANNM

I have only to make some primary (booster): AP to detonate the ANNM
I have to little AP at the moment :)

oh yea, your questions.
No, the 2 component stuff I use (expensive, but good) doesn't get warm as most 2 component stuf works.

The reason I use a blastingcap is that detonated AP by a cap have more power than ignited by flame. Cap is filled with MF (Mercury Fulminate) what is stronger than AP

so....to be continued, pictures will be on my site and let you people know when detonated/uploaded <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: xtreme ]</small>

[Boob Raider]

I had fired a conical shaped charge by the river bank in India. One of the most impressive things I have seen (other than my neighbours wife) :D . Anyways my core explosive was 100 g Lydite (87% Picric Acid + 8% Di NitroBenzene + 3% vasline, with about 2% Al powder replacing some of the DNB). Its quite insensitive so I used a 10 g secondary booster charge of C-1. The cone had an angle of 70* and was made up of about 26 gauge Cu sheet. The cast iron tube which contained the was 5" long and 3" in Dia and 0.2" thick. The shaped charge was placed 3" away from the target(1" thick Fe plate) with the help of 3 rods taped to the side of the tube (tripod). The charge was detonated with a homemade detonator containing 3 g of RDX and about a g of DDNP.
Since I had a cast Fe tube I had to build a wall of loose wet bricks around it. It was set off electrically from 30 mts away behind a big rock. I felt goose bumps all over .... it sounded so damn impressive :D . Bricks spread all around with a clean hole in the plate also leading into the ground till about 6".
That was it. No shrapnel could be found, only marks of it in the bricks. :confused:
I was also thinking if one could mix a large amount of Pb powder (to provide the mass) from a Pb accumulator plates with "plaster of paris" (to provide the binding) to make a tamper (NBK ... Did u mention it ....?)

[Chris Shiherlis]

Xtreme any progress? I'm very curious. Since your first LSC was already such a pretty one I think the new one will be very impressive.