Mini-more

[nbk2000]

Winston "Evo" cigarettes now come in a plastic flask. When these came into the store, I noticed how they had a nice curvature to them, very similiar to that in a claymore mine.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/minimore_top.gif" alt=" - " />

This shows how the flask curves inward. This would be good for focusing the direction of the fragments into a highly concentrated "beam", rather than a divergent spreading as they normally would.

Since this would be intended as an indoors weapon for defense of hallways and other structural choke-points, the fragment load wouldn't have to be of large caliber. BB's are more than adequate for the under 10 yard range I'd anticipate. This gives the weapon a dense cloud of fragments, increasing the vital hit probability against armored targets.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/minimore_side.jpg" alt=" - " />

Given the small size (about actual size in the pictures), it'd be easy to conceal beneath furniture, behind paintings, inside of vases, and other such camouflage.

The explosive weight is only a couple of ounces, no more than a grenade. This would minimize structural damage.

[carbonated]

Maybe my monitor is screwed up, or we have different monitors, NBK, but what are the (approxiamte) dimensions?

[nbk2000]

3.5"H x 3"W x 3/4"D

[Keyser Soze]

Did you do that with photoshop nbk? If i were to make a claymore type device would Picric Acid be a much better choice for the charge than APAN because it has a higher VoD? And if you did need more range/fire power, stores like Sports authority and Gallians sell 1/4 inch steel balls for slingshots.

[kingspaz]

picric acid would be a much better choice for many reasons. its a proven safe secondary. there is already data on sensitivity to work from. it has a higher VoD and is quite brisant. so all in all its good shit. but better yet you could neutralise it with NH3 to make ammonium picrate. this would then be safe to put into direct contact with the steel shot and achieve the highest shot velocity and still be a very good explosive. the disadvantage would be that it would require a booster charge. a couple of grams of picric acid would be sufficient for this though.

[Keyser Soze]

Yes I have heard that PA is a good booster and it is relatively easy for me to make(i would use Mr. Cools syth.) I recall someone on the forum said they used 10g AP with a 30g PA booster to detonate ANFO. The only thing I was worried about was the contact with metals and PA will form metal salts. I will most likely be using steel or copper shot but i could make Ammonium Picrate like you suggested.

[kingspaz]

the only problem i can foresee as a possibility is this:
R-O- + NH4+ &lt;=&gt; R-OH + NH3
where R = picryl group
its an ammonium salt so maybe the slight amount of TNP formed during the equilibrium could react with the metal to some extent. i beleive this may be catalysed by the fact that the ammonia also formed would form a complex with the metal removing it as an ion from the metal surface.
maybe i'm talking crap....can somebody who knows stuff about chemistry help here? Pu?

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[Crow]

I have not heard of "Evo" brand cigarettes, nor have I seen the package on any shelves. Is this product available in the Northeastern US? I have been thinking of using a rum bottle with a similar curvature, but it is about twice the size of the package you mentioned. Another draw back is that it is glass, but with some brown spray paint on the inside of the bottle it will look like an ordinary rum bottle, not a small plastic tin placed strategicly in a hallway.

The circular cases my CD-R's come in would be nice for a 360 degree blast radius. They are 4 inches tall and could easily take off the feet of any threats.

[nbk2000]

Yes, the picture is a photoshop creation. I'm out of BB's at the moment, so used a scan of some instead. But you get the idea.

Being a plastic case, you can fill it with your explosive without worry about any metal interaction since the BB's are on the outside of the case.

You wouldn't want to use 1/4" shot since that would reduce your frag count to just a couple dozen at most, compared to hundreds of BB's. Also, the ratio of explosive weight/frag weight must be large as possible to ensure high velocity. Ideally, your explosive weight is equal, or greater, than your frag weight.

The case is the perfect size for indoor use. It's no larger than my palm, fits easily in a pocket, and wouldn't be overpowered.

Now, as to availability, it's a rather rare brand. Most places don't stock it. Try the larger retailers or a cigarette store. Plus, once you have one, you could use it as a form for making plaster molds to make them as needed since it's not the case itself, but rather the shape of the case, that is important.

If someone had $350+shipping, you could get an inert copy of the real thing <a href="http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976212625.htm" target="_blank">HERE</a>. THIS would be the shit to have. :)

<small>[ December 18, 2002, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Keyser Soze]

In another thread on claymore mines, i believe it was said that one gets the best results when the explosive was actually touching the shot, but in this case with it being thin plastic would it make a significant difference? hmmm i guess 1/4" shot is too big for this application, but do you know what the military mines use?

[nbk2000]

3/8" steel shot.

A millimeter of plastic isn't going to make any difference. A couple of millimeters of steel like that used in the other thread would because it takes energy to deform it, energy that's not going into projection of the fragments.

If you made the mine from NIPOLIT, you wouldn't need a case since the explosive would be holding the fragments in direct contact with it.

[THErAPIST]

Great idea. I've made a few small claymores just for fun. I just tape two match boxes together. The one in front is filled with small pieces of wire clothes hanger, or bbs, or lead shot , and also some small craft brads. The box in the back is flled with explosive (wasnt that a given though?). I have used PA a couple times but I usually use HMTDAN since its easier to make and less time consuming to make. If you want house protection then the matchbox type could come in handy with a door. Tape the matchbox more to thedoor frame at face level. have a party popper inside the box with the string connected to the door so that when the door is opened the claymore goes off and plays with someone's facial features. Since about the only place a match box playmore would be useful is on a door jam I'm going to say that your cig carton idea would be a much better choice. I've only tested my claymore on targets that were about 5 feet away and the pattern was tight but it was by no means focused. Since the cig carton would have the ability to focus and hold more projectile and explosive the carton would be the much better choice. And by the way... doesnt winston have a hard flask type case now too?

[Mr Cool]

Do Claymores really have "Front - Towards Enemy" written out on them like that inert one?
I suppose it is a good idea really since it could be pretty embarrasing, not to mention painful, if you put it facing the wrong way, but don't soldiers have any common sense? It's like putting "This end is dangerous" on rifle barrels :D .

[nbk2000]

Yes, they do.

Claymores, unlike rifles, aren't intuitive in which "end" is dangerous. It's just a curved piece of plastic and could easily be set up facing the wrong way in the dark or confusion of battle.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">And by the way... doesnt winston have a hard flask type case now too?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">A little late to the game, aren't we? Did we miss reading the very first sentence in this thread where I say:

"Winston "Evo" cigarettes now come in a plastic flask."

[Keyser Soze]

I also have a rum bottle of that curvature... Captain Morgan's maybe? I would not use the bottle as the case but perhaps one could use it as a mold and heat platic to form around it( It would be great if you had one of the hobby vaccum formers). I remeber somebody used plastic plates heated in a toaster and formed around a lightbulb to make shell casings so maybe this concept could be implemented to create your own cases.

[DBSP]

Here is something for you NBK.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/mini_clay1.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/mini_clay1.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/claymore_arrangement.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/claymore_arrangement.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/claymore_hits.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/claymore_hits.JPG</a>

I fastened about 500 small lead balls (2,0-3mm) onto a candy box, measuring 45x50x15mm. Filled it with APAN as I hand't got time for anything else. The claymore was put next to the tree in the second pic. It was about 2m from the target,the target was the same as used for the trinade tests. I allso put a tincan behind the target. After it had detonated about 40 (haven't counted them yet) bullets hit the target and 3 hit the tincan, all of them penetrated the can. The aming wasn't the best either so I haven't got a clue about how good this thing is, i might try it again some time.

[Mr Cool]

"It's just a curved piece of plastic and could easily be set up facing the wrong way in the dark or confusion of battle."

Ah yes, I suppose in some extreme circumstances you might be concentrating on staying alive more than anything else, I can see it could be easy to make mistakes. But in confused darkness would they actually take the time to read the...
Oh, I'll just shut up and accept it :) .

What about the bottom of butane tanks? Might make good EFP's/Claymores...

[nbk2000]

A slight modification should make it more effective.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/mini_clay1.jpg" alt=" - " />

Since you used a tin, you could cut a hole in the bottom, leaving a half inch border. Cover the hole outside with a piece of plastic sheet cut from a 2 liter soda bottle, taped into place. Place the frags inside of the case, directly over the hole, leaving the 1/2" border empty. Fill the case with the explosive, then rear-center prime.

Since the frags have an unobstructed way out of the case, are in direct contact with the explosive, and have a border of explosive, this should be the most effective use. The border of explosive serves to keep the fragments constrained to a central cone, without extraneous lobes, as per the patent.

Further range would be good too. 2 meters is awfully close, grenade range. 15 meters would be better. With 40 hits on a torso at 2, that should give you at least 1 at 15.

How many targets did you make up anyways? Or did you knock your brother out again to make up some more? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D

It's easy to tell if a claymore is pointed in the right direction in the dark. If your fingers are curled back towards you, you're fine. If they're pointed forward, you're fucked.

<small>[ January 01, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Axt]

"It's easy to tell if a claymore is pointed in the right direction in the dark. If your fingers are curled back towards you, you're fine. If they're pointed forward, you're fucked."

Actually, for an actual claymore its the other way around.

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Is it a referenced fact that by placing the shot on the inside curvature that you will get a tighter pattern (did you source is info from somewhere, tested it, or is it just what you would expect would happen?)

What is the principle that makes the shot follow a tighter pattern, is it a straight line from the surface (so that all surface should be facing target) or is it working simularly to a shaped charge?

[nbk2000]

Oops, my bad. :o I was probably holding an Evo flask when I was typing that up, thus the mistake.

The frags from any explosive charge will diverge within a 15 degree arc from the surface of the charge. By providing a slight concavity to the shape of the charge, it tends to nullify this dispersion.

This isn't guesswork, it's known FACT. A convex shape (like a circle or part thereof) will disperse it's energy in a radial manner. A concave shape will focus its energy in an almost linear manner. This is similar to how glass lenses focus light.

By having the fragments on the concave side of an explosive charge, you'll focus the fragments into a tighter pattern than would otherwise happen naturally. Read the thread (by me) called "<a href="http://d106112.u27.qwknetllc.com/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000017" target="_blank">Multi-Point Initiation and Asymetric Effects</a>" for further details.

Also, spherical frags, while easy to obtain in the form of ball bearings and such, are not the most efficient shape for either distance, nor penetration.

I've read of experiments with a flechette claymore that had flechettes arranged so that they'd be projected in a similar pattern as a conventional claymore, but the flechettes would provide much greater range and penetration of protective vests than a round ballbearing would.

<small>[ January 12, 2003, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>