explosive dogpile

[S. Toppholzer]

sounds kewlish lol.
Anyways, I was working on different thermite formulae lately and then I thought of flashbangs - which brought me to the idea of combining thermite and flashbang -like, say, a thermite bomb that blows molten slags all around. So I did some kind of preliminary testing, made a couple of thermite pellets and the "dogpile" which is better described in the file exploding dogpile.pdf you can find in the upload section on the forum ftp.
I didn't pack all the stuff together in a tube since I first wanted to see wether it would work anyways - and if it worked what the possible result could be. I was amazed by the ferocity and the loudness of the bang the detonating HMTD made.
A device with such a "dogpile" embedded within and lit on both ends with maybe a sparkler or a chemical initiator should work pretty nice.
I'd think of lighting such a thermite filled tube on both ends since I'd like being sure the "dogpile" is surrounded on both sides with burning thermite. If lit on one end only, at least a part of the thermite would be wasted because the "dogpile" would destroy the whole device before the thermite reaction at the bottom would be finished.
On the other hand, the thermite dust spread by the detonation might as well have a FAE effect. What do you think?

[xoo1246]

I was thinking of something like this:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Drawing.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Drawing.jpg</a>
The "fast ignition charge" could be some BP with aluminum. The HTMD in plastic casing.
I don't belive in the FAE effect, more incendinary.

When I started with LE, I sometimes made mixtures of KNO3/S/Fe2O3/Al, there were no molten slag but the mixture was pretty hot buring and powerfull. I can't remember the ratios I used.
I remember one cracker containing 10 grams of the above composition in a plastic pipe I once tried. I was only a few meters from it when it was set off(behind a stone with no hearing protection), I couldn't hear anything for a while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[CyclonitePyro]

Does the HMTD have enough time to make the thermite react? The aluminum and iron oxide dispersed in a cloud wouldn't be intimate enough to burn, at least I don't think so. Keep on playing though, sounds fun.

[S. Toppholzer]

Cyclo - I don't know if the iron oxide would influence the Al when dispersed together with it in a cloud. If anything would happen (i.e. detonation of said cloud) the Al surely would take the oxygen needed from the air. And besides of that I thought "wtf, Al dust should detonate anyways". Sunno if I'm right but I believe the sparks provided by burning thermite should more than suffice.
I guess you got one thing wrong: the thermite doesn't react because of the HMTD detonation but the HMTD detonates becasue of rapid overheating from burning thermite :p

yep xoo - this drawig looks almost the thing I have in mind. Just think of the HMTD in the middle of the charge and make it a "fast ignition charge" on both ends. But I guess that's too complicated in real life.

[xoo1246]

Hmm, if you are talking about my picture. I don't quite understand you, but I think you mean the HTMD should detonate first?
My intention was to ignite the ignition powder from the top... Hmm let me draw something. :p
Here it is: <a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Drawing2.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Drawing2.jpg</a>
Edit: Al 30um/air(21% oxygen) could be detonated in the right proportions. But Thermite is very hard to ignite. Sometimes I have had unburnt thermite when I have put thermite on the ground, when some thermite doesn't have physical contact with the rest. But my thermite is often quite crude.

<small>[ May 24, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[S. Toppholzer]

Well, xoo - I thought of lighting both ends of the charge simultaneously (sp?) so that both sides would burn toward the core where the HMTD charge is nested. On detonation it would then trow burning slag or embers or what have you all around - with the difference that if done this way the slag surely would be a tad hotter. But I actually don't think that such a model would be feasible anyways - too complicated. I guess you construction is pretty straight forward and more practical.

The thermite I am using is an extremely fine powder - like face powder. The iron oxide is made by (dang how's that anode/cathode stuff called now? Shame on me :mad: ) and thus of the real fine variety. The Al powder is bought and floats on air. once up in the air it's bound to stay there for at least half an hour. I always wonder how come it isn't pyrophoric. Amazing stuff and great to work with.

[zaibatsu]

How about having a thick card tube, possibly 30mm in diameter, block one end, insert a CO2 powerlet, insert either coarse BP or KClO3/Sugar or Thermite and light. However, you could of course use a metal pipe, plastic might burn through though.

[S. Toppholzer]

CO2 powerlet? Filled with CO2 or HMTD?

OK guys - this brings up the ultimate question behind the dogpile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

If I'd like to fast and completely destroy, say a small trailer with an easy made, cheap but reliable device - what would be a good soultion?

I'd like keeping it as simple as possible and not making any secondary HE for this. It should leave crime scene detectives no traces or those that are left could lead anywhere (for example matter nneded to make thermite are so commonplace it cannot be traced)...

oh, naturally I would never ever REALLY intend any such thing it naturally is only pure theoretical :rolleyes:

[zaibatsu]

Filled with CO2

[xoo1246]

Hmm, if your little device wouldn't go off, the crime scene investigators are left with lots of usefull information.(especially if you don't use a "clean room") If it goes off the still have some information. One would have to keep it simple to avoid an extensive investigation. Make it look like a random act of mayhem/huliganism. Molotov coctails could be used.
Or attack the vehicle when it has little fuel in it and drop some hypoclorite in the tank, in some container that will be dissolved by the gasoline. Preferably floating on the fuel. I don't know if it would work, but I could work. I bet the fuel concentration is too large in such an area(tank).
Hope we are talking theories here, right?
Not you burning up a couple of people by misstake. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ May 24, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[S. Toppholzer]

aside from shrapnel effects - how strong would be the net effect compared to a small HMTD charge? What would make your design better, what would be its weakness? Sorry for these questions - never thought of somethink like that.

[S. Toppholzer]

right xoo - I'd never burn theoretical people - only theoretical empty little trailers. I think a combination of explosion and burning should be (theoretically) ideal.

[EP]

It seems to me that a molotov cocktail fits best for "easily made, cheap and reliable". If you wanted to get a little fancier, the fuel could be in something like a 1gal jug dispersed and ignited by an LE charge with some pyrotechnic stars to ensure ignition of the fuel.

[xoo1246]

He seems to like thermite, some thermite in a plastic pipe in the container would work too, the fuel container would pop/explode open with fuel spraying all over.

[PYRO500]

What about a thermite fountain? well, more like a cannon that will fire liquid thermite in a specific direction,I am thinking of a thermite with a bit of magnesium powder in it, your thermite would be vairly easy to ignite, this would be in a metal pipe capped at one end, the open end would have a length of fast burning fuse or pyro composition that needs no air in a tube coming to making a cone shape at the top to ensure the entire air exposed face burns and the thing burns back to a small HE+primary charge witch ejects the burning slag into the air causing the liquid metal (may cool in air not sure) to jet out in a shower of slag being perfect for pre placement in a place such as a crowded building.

[S. Toppholzer]

yup. sounds good pyro. I shortly thought of making a combined thermite/HE/FAE by means of a fast burning thermite-like core with not-too hot thermate which detonates a charge of HMTD which in turn atomizes gasoline in which the thermite charge would be embedded - I guess this would be pretty difficult to accomplish for I think the gasoline would be gone due to the heat before the HE charge would get the chanche producing a FAE like weapon.
Maybe I should go back to the drawing board and study a couple of patents...

[xoo1246]

I don't think shooting hot iron slag at people sounds good.

What I can tell you is that I once did a test with a KNO3/Al/S/Fe2O3 device in a bottle with ethanole. A fast rising cloud of hot alchol vapors were created after the explosion as far as I can tell. I have also tried "pure" thermite(in weak container)and ethanol in a small plastic continer.
The contaier was ruptured and a small fireball was formed. The surounding were set on fire by the remaining fuel.
Edit: By the way, using HE in a cannon would split it in a million pieces, second the thermite would burn and stick to the wallsof your pipe were the slag would cool very fast.

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[S. Toppholzer]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I don't think shooting hot iron slag at people sounds good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">especially if the shit happens to blow up while you're around :D
The fast rising ethanol cloud you're mentioning: did it detonate?

[xoo1246]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">did it detonate?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">How could it?, there was nothing there to detonate it and it was probaly not detonationable(only ignitable).