5.56 Flechette?

[Zyklon_B]

Anyone know of a material that can be used to make a sabot in a 5.56 cartridge to deliver a flechette, and can those flechettes available from deactivated beehive rounds be used?

[PYRO500]

I assume by beehive rounds you are talking about those shotgun fletchette founds, I beleve a tungsten sabot in a copper jacket would work but I don't kow how well steel would work

[green beret]

I dont have the answer to your question, but I know that the new Steyr ACR (Advanced Combat Rifle) fires 5.56mm flechette rounds, they have a very high muzzle velocity and flat trajectory, the rifle looks a bit like the old AUS or AUG but is more streamlined and compact.

Anyhow, why dont you just try a few materials that you know wont damage your barrel? What weapon is it?

<small>[ June 12, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: green beret ]</small>

[Zyklon_B]

The weapon is a SIG 550.

This is what a flechette looks like: <a href="http://wljenterprises.com/1inchflechettes.jpg" target="_blank">http://wljenterprises.com/1inchflechettes.jpg</a>

Before I embarked on making such rounds I was hoping someone had success doing so in the past. I was thinking of using some polymer of some sort to keep the flechette flying at super high velocity, or maybe using wood.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How about providing a link instead of bogging down the thread with a 100Kb pic? <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon17.gif" alt="" /> A little consideration for us dial-uppers would be nice.

<small>[ June 13, 2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Charlie Workman]

I've done a little previous work on this problem. A polymer such as nylon or teflon would make a good sabot. The problem is you have two types of stabilization being used- fin and rifling. When the flechette leaves the barrel and discards the sabot it will be spinning from the rifling. When the air hits the fins your stability goes all to hell. If you can use a smooth bore, you'll eliminate this problem. All of AAI's flechette weapons were smooth bores.

[Microtek]

Which is why flechettes are a nice way around the rifling problem with homemade firearms.

[Zyklon_B]

So then this Idea would be usefull in some sort of Zip gun. Maybe a Sten like weapon with smooth bore that takes AR15 magazines.

[Anthony]

Are you after a discarding sabot? If so, have you considered how you're going to ensure that the flechette and sabot stay attached during the acceleration in the barel, but seperate on exiting the muzzle - and make this reliable?

For a non discarding sabot, I would try casting a lead slug around the shaft of the flechette which would add weight to aid penetration and also keep the velocity sensible - as you requested. However the lead would probably disrupt the airflow over the flechette's fins, badly affecting accuracy. However this might be an advantage if firing from a rifled barrel, if the fins are made ineffective. Or you could snip the fins off, but then you might as well use nails or something.

Why do you specifically want to fire a flechette from a rifle? Knowing the purpose/motive/desired effect would help people suggest solutions.

[Zyklon_B]

The purpose of using a flechette is to pierce body armor more efficiently. Thought now I think of it any weapon I make from this idea wouldnt be more versatile or as equally so as any existing platform.

This might be a good idea for a small handgun type unit. To make the sabot stay on the projectile while its being fired isnt much of a problem with a discarding sabot since the fins will prevent the flechette from going past the sabot. To keep both sides of the discarding sabot together one would have to make a female and male edge in each of the two sections of the sabot as to make them interlock. I was thinking of two half moon shaped parts as the sabot that would fit together to make a sabot.

[Xtramad]

If the only purpose is to pierce body armour why not just use a armour piercing core? Welding electrodes for TIG welding are made of a tungsten-thorium alloy wich is easily ground to a sharp point, are of consistant diameter and can be cut to the length you desire. If enbedded in a regular bullet they should fulfill your strange desires.
Use hollow point or soft nose bullets and make a drilling jig to ensure that each hole is identicle to the previous or you won't get any accuracy.

[Charlie Workman]

The dart would be able to slide right through soft kevlar like a sewing needle, but to what effect? I talked to Dr. Fackler a few years ago, on a related issue, and he expressed his dim view of flechettes. During his service as a combat surgeon in VN he ran into a lot of VC carrying them around. In many cases, he said the wounds healed on their own. This was not, of course, the guys that were too close to the beehive when it went off and caught a hundred or so of them. On the other hand, if you can load the dart with something interesting, it would not leave much of an entrance wound to draw attention. Depending on the circumstances, the receiver might not consider it important enough to seek medical attention.

[PYRO500]

I herd someone say on an imformational show that the us military didn't condone thir use beacuse they were cruel for example, he said someone shot in the cest wit them might have to have them taken outta his feet

[tempest]

Well ... the US never signed the 1899 humane war act which bans numerous things used for war things that come to mind are bullets that tumble , shatter or fragment on impact and white phosphorus grenades.

Now interestingly NATO 7.62MM was recently proven to shatter and tumble on impact so I don't really suppose its very meaningful about how humane war is.

Oh and hell go buy yourself a Gurza vector its a russian made 9mm handgun with a solid core of some kind that can go thru 15 layers of kevlar and 2.5mm titanium plate at 100metres , fletteches are kind of defunct by that.Then again you could always make punji fletchettes though having your weapon smell like that would be kind of unpleasant unless it was sealed in some sort of hollow point.

<small>[ June 15, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: tempest ]</small>

[tempest]

<a href="http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg25-e.htm" target="_blank">http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg25-e.htm</a>

oops my mistake thats Gyurza and 30 layers of kevlar and 2.8mm titanium according to the link above anyway

[Harry]

RE: discarding sabots on a flechette

Use adhesive to attach a piece of cloth to the base of the sabot halves. For demo purposes, cut a circle of duct tape to fit the sabot base to see what I mean.

[Jack Ruby]

A Bee Hive Round...
That is an Howitzer round that explodes over the ground spraying Steel Darts(Flechettes) on to soft targets.

Some on correct me if I am wrong... Happens from time to time.
(Usually just my spelling)

[Nico]

How about that spike grenade from the movie Eraser? Yikes!

[Spudkilla]

I heard that the US and NATO banned flechette use in war because they were too cruel. The flechettes in that time (I dunno if they still are) were made from a metal that wasn't very strong. They tended to get bent in flight, and if they hit somebody (say in their chest) it would end up in their ass or head.

[cutefix]

But these fletchettes which were dispersed via an artillery was effectively used in Vietnam.IIRC it was called beehive rounds because it creates a buzzing sound once fired.
It was an excellent weapon for close in defense against hordes of marauding enemies.These weapon created so much fear among the Vietcong and the NVA...

[nbk2000]

Using flechettes in a pipe "claymore" would do some damage. But flechettes have nearly nil wounding potential unless it hits the brain, spine, or heart. Unless you perforate someone with dozens at a time.

You need a barreled weapon to use them. Explosive deployment (like a nail bomb) won't work because they'll bend and tumble erratically in flight.

If they were dropped en mass from a height over a crowd, then you'd have some serious injuries. During WWI, the french would drop them over german troops, and it was known for the darts to pass completely through a mans body, entering through his helmet and exiting out his foot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

There are sabots for loading in the 37mm launcher that will project 120 flechettes in one blast. See the archive for details.

[Charlie Workman]

A bored out airgun could fire modified flechettes with advantage. I tried to get an old shot out barrel for my Webley, but the factory would only sell me a new one. I'm going to try and make one for my Crossman. The darts should be carefully graded according to weight for uniformity, then trimmed on the fins for the same reason. They would only be effective with a nasty payload. More work needs to be done. The ones dropped in WW1 were about the size of lawn darts. They needed no embellishment.

[Ron McDonald]

An interesting solution to your problem is to get a roll of steel piano wire. Cut a bunch of the little bastards to about 1.5 cm. Then take each individual wire, and dip it into white glue. Let them dry, and you should get a bunch of wire things with little heads on them. That tiny bit of glue creates a weight differnce and keeps the wires straight on target. You do not need the fins, and these do work. I have not tried these on kevlar, but they will shred through at least 22 layers of balistic nylon. The important part is that you load the with the big part towards the target. I generally use this type of round in a 12 gauge, but there is no reason why it can't be adapted.

On another note, I saw a post about that stupid spike launcer thing from Eraser. It is very buildable, and will work, but why? Greanades are cheap and easy. Ok, if you take a piece of old hydraulic pipe, and weld caps on each end securely all you have to do is drill some holes. Then fill it with LOW EXPLOSIVE, that is crucial. Take your sipkes and put them in until they barely stick out. GLue them in with a little super glue so the don't move around. This device would be for show only as it is a waste of time for a real weapon.