Chemicals from batteries

[vulture]

Today i took apart a big alkaline battery, from which i recovered Zn powder and MnO2.
However, the Zn powder is gelly because of somekind of grease that has been added to it.

This would be an interesting source of Zn for people who don't have acces to it or only can get it for outrageous prices if you succeed to remove the gel.
The MnO2 can be used as a catalyst in KClO3 compositions, but beware, this will make them a LOT more sensitive!

Also, i was thinking of using the MnO2 as a substrate for an iron or lead electrode to prevent it from getting oxidized during electrolysis.

Any thoughts?

[mark]

Im not up and up on my chemical names. Is MnO2 magnese dioxide? How did you take apart the battery?

[mr.evil]

Mno2 is Magnese dioxide yeah(somethimes called brownstone)

[vulture]

It was a big philips battery. You can pull out the negative electrode and then you can cut off the plastic. There a core which contains the zinc, the MnO2 is pressed onto the sidewalls.

[A-BOMB]

Is Zn actual good for any thing? Because if it is, I got a few pounds of it.

[vulture]

Sure! Zn powder is a very reactive metal.
- Zn/S rocket fuel or flash mixture
- Zn added to ANFO or ANNM to sensitize and make more powerful.
- as a substitute for Mg in pyro compositions

For example, stoichiometrically mixed Zn with KClO3 or KMnO4 is a very powerful flash-similar composition.

[Rhadon]

Just in case this is from interest for you: You should be able to wash off the grease which covers the Zn powder with gasoline.

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Wouldn't some kind of alcohol or maybe acetone do the job better ???

And if it isn't grease, but some kind of gel, try dissolving it al in water. Because of the high weight of Zn, it will be easy to decantate ...

[Rhadon]

@BrAiNFeVeR: Fats and oils are much more soluble in ether, benzene, chloroform, CS2, CCl4, 1,2,3,4-tetrahydronaphthalene and so on than in alcohols or water. Since gasoline seems to be the cheapest I would recommend this one.

[BrAiNFeVeR]

Well, yesterday I took apart a big 6 Volt battery (the kind used in the light that mark road blocks and such). The big blue plastic contains 4 seperate Al Tubes, wich have a carbon rod in the center, and a black paste (kind of crumbly) around them. The black paste is wrapped in wax-coated paper, and is slightly acidic.

Is there anything I can do with these ?

[vulture]

The paste is MnO2. Take out the carbon rods, they are ideal for electrolysis.
It's acidic because the other electrolyte is NH4Cl.

[BrAiNFeVeR]

OK, the carbon rod and the MnO2 are accounted for, but where is the Zn-powder ?
That was basicly why I took them apart ...

I dissolved the black stuff in hot water, and an weird layer seperated on top ... The binder for the MnO2 ?

Vulture, add me in your msn list, brainfever_t1@hotmail.com

<small>[ March 17, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: BrAiNFeVeR ]</small>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Also, i was thinking of using the MnO2 as a substrate for an iron or lead electrode to prevent it from getting oxidized during electrolysis.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Erm, MnO2 doesn't conduct electricity. It is in the battery for the sole purpose of oxidizing hydrogen gas that is often formed inside the battery. You couldn't use a MnO2 coated electrode. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you said. :-)

[vulture]

I already feared that...
How the hell can PbO2 conduct electricity then?

Brainfever, there's only Zn powder in alkaline cells, the one you took apart was a léclanché element, it doesn't contain Zn.

<small>[ March 19, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

[rikkitikkitavi]

actually an normal dry cell and an alkaline cell are based on the same chemicals, Zn and MnO2. Difference is that in a normal cell
(le Lanche) the electrolyte is made up of NH4Cl, slightly acidic.
In an alkaline cell the electrolyte is slightly basic.

This gives the alkaline cell a longer life, because the acidic electrolyte reacts with the Zn without generating electricity.

The MnO2 is normally mixed with electrolyte and graphite to increase
conductivity.

PbO2 is a semiconductor, hence conductive. MnO2 isnt.

/rickard

[vulture]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The MnO2 is normally mixed with electrolyte and graphite to increase
conductivity.

PbO2 is a semiconductor, hence conductive. MnO2 isnt.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Err, i might be wrong here but you confused me a little with that. If it increases conductivity, but it isn't conductive, how would that work? :confused:

Oh dang, forget it, i'm just going to take apart a car battery.

[Anthony]

I think he means that the electrolyte and graphite increase the conductivity of the MnO2?

Ain't nothing really interesting in a car battery besides the electrolyte.

[vulture]

Charged car batteries have PbO2 electrodes...

[Anthony]

Which is useful for for electrodes and... :)

[rikkitikkitavi]

as for dry cells, the graphite and electrolyte is mixed with MnO2 to increase the conductivity since MnO2 is NON-conductive. just to clear things up... :)

the anode of a car battery is lead covered by lead dioxide, the cathode is only lead. while discharging the sulfuric acid in the electrolyte is consumed and lead sulfate is formed on both poles.
ergo, dissmantle a fully charged car-battery to get the leaddioxide andodes, much useful in chlorate-perchlorate electrolysis (better than graphite!)

/rickard

[a_bab]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> OK, the carbon rod and the MnO2 are accounted for, but where is the Zn-powder ?
That was basicly why I took them apart ...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Brainfever, the "Zn powder" for a Leclanche element is in the fact the casing of the battery, which happends to be made of Zn :rolleyes:

[BoB-]

You guys forgot one of the best uses for Mno2, as a catalyst for liberating O2 from H2O2. Pure Oxygen is uber useful to pyros.

Good to see the forum back up, I thought I lost you guys.

[kingspaz]

yer true, but tis not worth taking apart a battery for that whn you can use yeast or potatoes instead! (much easier to find and much less effort!)

[A_W]

All of the 1,5 v batteries I have taken apart are made from a zinc container filled with a black powder (MnO2) and a carbon rod. Where do I find batteries containing zinc powder?

[tango]

I'm also having the some problems with not being able to get Zn , Could someone please tell me what type of batteries have Zn in them. What can MnO2 be used for?
(on the explosives side)

<small>[ March 29, 2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: tango ]</small>

[A_W]

MnO2 is used as an oxider in matches and fireworks. It is also used as a catalyst and can produce oxygen from H2O2. It catalyses the decomposing of KClO3 when heated (hence its use in matches). Edit: Beyond that I think it has little use as an explosives agent.

<small>[ March 30, 2002, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: A_W ]</small>

[Boob Raider]

MnO2 can be used to prepare KMnO4 with KNO3 and KOH. Alkaline batteries only have Zn powder, dry cells have a Zn cylinder. I tried dissolving that greasy paste with Zn powder, Alcohol does squat, Gasoline does squat, paint thinner dissolves a little bit (very little), Acetone .... not tried yet as I have a Lit bottle of BDH Propan-2-one and I ain't gonna waste any on that. I haven't tried aromatics yet. Somebody else give it a wack as I don't have any. Wouldn't that past also contain ZnO and how the hell would you seperate that from Zn.
Ok mission acomplished.
Acetone is very effective in removing the binding agent. After washing the paste with Acetone, I still get a white lumpy powder. That is due to ZnO mixed with Zn. I got rid of ZnO by stirring the powder in Cold and Dilute H2SO4. Now I was left with a greyish powder with some shiny particles. That was washed again with acetone to remove the acid and is drying.
From 11 used AA batteries I got ~50g of Zn metal (ok a bit off mark there, Its more like 35g) :D (which seems to be fine enough for pyrotechnic purposes), and also some more Zn was recovered in carbonate form as the washings with the Dilute acid were treated with Na2CO3.

<small>[ October 17, 2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Boob Raider ]</small>

[zeocrash]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
All of the 1,5 v batteries I have taken apart are made from a zinc container filled with a black powder (MnO2) and a carbon rod. Where do I find batteries containing zinc powder?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">ok duracell batteries contain zinc powder, MnO₂ powder and carbon powder,
i was wondering if anyone knew any batteries that contained the carbon rod, or if anyone knew what the alkaline liquid in the duracell bettery contained

[jimwig]

disassembled an lantern battery (large 6 volt) made by Everready - i think it was alkaline.
found carbon rods, zinc casing, and lots of chunky manganese dioxide (AFAIK the larger particles are desirable in some reactions as opposed to the fine ceramics grade from ceramics supply houses)

So by screening your own MnO2 you get the proper size.

what's one likely to find in a nickel-cadmium model?

[zeocrash]

i'm planning to test ni cad batteries this weekend, and maybe even a nickle metal hydride battery

[kingspaz]

nicads contain cadmium which is carcinogenic.

[Zach]

I just opened a duracell 1.5v alkaline battery... the stuff inside is brown. all of it. what is the deal here?

scratch that - I must have brain damage. The zinc powder is clearly evident now that I have proper lighting

<small>[ November 10, 2002, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Zach ]</small>

[Zach]

Alrighty, I did some searching on the us patent website and found #6,472,103. within this patent the gelling agents used are described :
"The mixture contains individual zinc-based particles suspended in a thickened liquid or gel containing a gelling agent, an alkaline electrolyte such as potassium hydroxide (KOH), and minor amounts of other additives, such as indium or bismuth " and "Common gelling agents used in anodes include carboxymethycellulose, polyacrylic acid (e.g., Carbopol 940.TM. from B. F. Goodrich in Brecksville, Ohio, or POLYGEL-
4P.TM. from 3V in Bergamo, Italy), sodium polyacrylate (e.g., CL-15.TM. from Allied Colloids in Yorkshire, England), and salts."

I dont have any more time right now, or I'd do a search on solvents for these substances.

Edit: it turns out Ive got more time that I thought I did, and a search on yahoo.com gave me a webpage about food additives, like "5.Carboxymethycellulose ( CMC ) - A gum that is water - soluble cellulose ether manufactured by reacting sodium monochloroacetate with alkali cellulose to from sodium carboxymethycellulose. It dissolve in hot or cold water and is fairly stable over a pH range of 5.0 to 10.0 , but acidification below pH 5.0 will reduce the viscosity and stability except in a special acid - stable type of CMC."
Carboxymethycellulose is one possible gelled binder for the battery patent. I'll go try it now.

Yup, it dissolves in hot water. not even that hot, just out of the tap.

edit: okay, I used hot water to dissolve the gel binder in the zinc mix from the battery. I filtered it off, blah blah, but the zinc powder ends up looking very blue. Is this normal? Or does the mixture have other crap?
____________________________
*bump*
_______________________________
has anyone else tried this method? what are you'r results? how can I test to see if its only zinc?

<small>[ November 11, 2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Zach ]</small>

[CommonScientist]

Ok, I took apart an akaline battery last night, specificaly a energizer D. The rod you take out to release the zinc gel, and mine was gold. I challenge all of you to take that rod of yours, and file it down. Now look at the file and the rod, beneath all of the residue, it is a gold rod. Do any of you know what it is?

I might have missd it,but what is the casing made out of?

[The_Executioner]

Correct me if I’m wrong but batteries may explode if you open them. Mine usually say Warning: Do not install backwards. Charge. Put in fire. Dismantle, Recharge or mix with other battery types, may explode, leak or cause personal injury. I recently got some cheap D size batteries from Kmart, they are a cheap shity brand and say on the front carbon, zinc battery :D these will be good I hope, but they don’t say alkali or anything on them. They also have a different warning sign. Warning: do not install backwards, charge or put in fire. May explode or leak. Made in Indonesia. I don’t know why they put where it was made under the warning part. I should dismantle them tomorrow morning cause it is dark now and my mum wont let me do it in side.

[Marvin]

Batteries can go pop if you charge them backwards, or recharge a non rechargeable, simply opening a new battery is probably the least risky thing you can do on this forum, including posting.

Its worth pointing out that if you want the zinc and manganese dioxide, you need to be opening an unused battery, becuase they are consumed to produce power. Obvios statement I know, but some people dont seem to have grasped this.

[CommonScientist]

Hey I did all the filtering shit and such and my Zn is blue. I used hot water and decanted it over and over.

Add hot water, stir vigorously, then pour liquid into huge beaker or container. Repeat process 20 times. Your final produc will be blue, like mine, admay have many contaminates in it.

Any comments?

PS: the electrode in alkaline batteries is not carbon, it is a oxidised brass rod, thats why its black, but it is gold looking underneath.

[vulture]

I don't see the point of using hot water. It won't dissolve the grease on the Zn and any unprotected ZN will be rapidly oxidized.

[CommonScientist]

I dont know Vulture, I did it with hot water and it worked fine, the Zn is a dark metalic color. I was using used batteris, low and behold, there is nozinc in them at all. So I checked out a new D size battery, and I quickly found to my delight, a bunch of Zn. :)

[tiac03]

I remember in grade school taking apart AA & D batteries during class (with my scissors. the only thing that that I remember going wrong was that the gellied crap sprayed out a few inches once when I pulled out the electrode. (i assume if you are dumb enough to keep it that close to your face, you can have problems)

Apart from making a slight mess and causing my buddy to laugh at me, it does nothing.

The explosive warnings are only when electricity or fire is involved. (as marvin said)

speaking of electricity another "interesting fact" is that if you get certain resistors hooked up backwards they will go off like firecrackers. (can be useful as a toy if you don't want explosives involved...)

[Zeitgeist]

if you get certain resistors hooked up backwards they will go off like firecrackers...)

That's rather difficult.... with resistors. Electrolytic capacitors?

[T_Pyro]

Resistors don't have polarity. Either he's talking about electrolytic capacitors, or diodes. I had a 1000µF, 45V capacitor go off while experimenting with a power supply, and it sure made me jump! A diode used in the breakdown region generates quite some heat, which is just perfect for electrical ignition of "devices".

I find that the amount of Zn used in the dry cells vary from brand to brand. One particular brand has quite a thick Zn casing, which can be useful even after the cell is "spent". Others, however, have a very thin Zn layer, which is difficult to separate from the membrane even when the cell is new.

I recently dissected a AAA duracell cell, and found a nickel pin in it as the cathode. I'm currently brainstorming ideas on how to use it fruitfully.

[tiac03]

That's rather difficult.... with resistors. Electrolytic capacitors?

yea i meant capacitors, but was doing a lab involving resistors and seems i had them on the brain. (anyone ever while listening to something and writing at the same time start writting what you hear, like listening to the news or something?)
.... yeah i'm retarded, and have the attention span of a strobe light.

[vulture]

I recently dissected a AAA duracell cell, and found a nickel pin in it as the cathode. I'm currently brainstorming ideas on how to use it fruitfully.

Electrode for molten NaOH? :D

[T_Pyro]

Unfortunately, the nickel pin is only about 3 cm long, and barely 1mm thick. I'm not sure whether that would work well... I've just been having some fun with nickel complexes. ;)

I think I might have pressed the "Post reply" button twice accidentally last time... Could a moderator please remove the first post? Thanks, and sorry for the trouble...

[yawehzuv]

[QUOTE=CommonScientist]Hey I did all the filtering shit and such and my Zn is blue. I used hot water and decanted it over and over.

Add hot water, stir vigorously, then pour liquid into huge beaker or container. Repeat process 20 times. Your final produc will be blue, like mine, admay have many contaminates in it. QUOTE]

The blue stuff could maybe be some insoluble zinc hydroxide that formed when the it reacted with the soluble potassium hydroxide in solution. I was bored once and I put a used ripped open D battery in a jar of water and I got the same effect so its not just you or anything.

[dooba]

will this help any people on this topic? not sure what type it is but its a basic idea......

http://haloxbox.bravehost.com/battery.jpg

hope it helps
/dooba

[MeestaSparkle]

Well, not exactly from batteries but I have a source of Zinc to offer up. US pennies are made of copper plated zinc these days. When I was little I used to take a bunch and melt them, since copper melts at such a higher temperature it would separate. I just used this gas torch I had to melt them, and would scoop off the copper. From there you get a solid mass and you can just grind it up. I tried to use the ZN/s mix in a rocket motor, but the propellant is pretty heavy, and wasn't too efficient (ended up getting just a smoke bomb). Its pretty laborious, but it was fun to do nonetheless and gave some satisfaction.

[10fingers]

I haven't read this whole thread because it's so damn stupid so someone may have already stated it. There is no zinc powder in an alkaline cell. The can that the battery is made of is zinc, that's why it is the negative terminal. The black paste is manganese dioxide with an electrolyte mixed in, I'm not sure but I think it's zinc chloride.
If I need some zinc I use a US penny made within the past ten years or so. They just have a very thin layer of copper plating.

[kurtz]

There is no zinc powder in an alkaline cell.

You're mistaken. People are just making up the posts about the zinc powder? What kind of battery are these people talking about, then? You're talking about carbon-zinc batteries.

http://www.energizer.com/learning/howbatterieswork.asp

[Marvin]

"I haven't read this whole thread because it's so damn stupid "

You are setting yourself up for a fall here ;)

In the most common sort of battery you get a zinc can which is the negative terminal, a positive carbon electrode goes into a mix of manganese dioxide and carbon. This is the Zinc Acid battery, not the Alkaline battery.

In an alkaline battery which in the past were the f'ing useless ones you take to bits and get no carbon electrode, the outer can is positive, the inner electrode is a much thinner metal electrode pearcing into a nasty mix of metal salts and grey powder contained in what I can only describe as a fabric bag. The mixture has the soapy alkaline feel. Outside the bag may be a manganese dioxide mixture, I cant remeber offhand its been a long time since I was desperate enough for carbon electrodes to take apart batteries. Its alleged if you wash the grey powder in the bag its pretty pure and fine zinc, I havnt tried this but I'm under little doubt that before the battery is discharged it does contain zinc powder.

[10fingers]

That's OK marvin, I've fell before.

[FUTI]

experience and guess

I have never dismantle alkaline batery so I can't give you any experimental fact about it, but I doubt it contain any zinc since Zn is soluble in alkalies that would make them very poor on storage if zinc have any significant role in the process (even worse if you speak of rechargable type one).

As for acid Leclanche...been there done that:)
It does have carbon electrode.
It's electrolyte is as far as I remember ammonium-chloride. There is also some sh*t of gel inside.
Outer case is Zinc as other electrode.
It is not rechargable as zinc dissolves and make zinc-chloride.
MnO2 is depolariser (I hope that is the english term), it reacts (suposedly) with hydrogen generated in the process, and that is the reason why the batery is sealed with that resinous crap (and why it sometimes on cutting burst...pressure).
I had dismantling them in high-school (boy I'm old:D) so if I forget something or didn't come with right conclusions... well Alzhaimer rules or the technology had advanced to unbelievable high level since...

[Marvin]

Let down by the logic I'm afraid. If the battery contained nothing that reacted with at least one electrode, you wouldnt have a battery at all.

Random webpage information,
"The alkaline cell has the zinc anode at the centre of the cell in powder form and the manganese dioxide/graphite cathode as hard-compressed cylindrical pellets surrounding the anode. Synthetic paper acts as the separator. A chemically aggressive and strongly alkaline gelled solution of potassium hydroxide acts as the electrolyte and gives its name to the system. "

For me the only questions is for real cells is the zinc pure, or an alloy? and it it really cost effective buying new batteries to get the small amount of zinc powder in them?

[shade8211]

what about the Nh4Cl (Ammonium Chloride ??) in a" regular dry cell battery? is it of any use for anything? (other than making a battery that is)

[FUTI]

to Marvin: I do know that it must convert chemical energy to electricity, that is what the bateries are all about. I just said that I don't know anything about the non-rechargable one you are speaking of. Thanks for the info...although I'm still confused about this one it doesn't look right or at least not very stabile solution for energy storage...but then again we live in very fast consumers society maybe it doesn't stay long on the shelf after all;)
BTW I think that curently there are at least two types of rechargable alkaline bateries at the market (don't remember which)...any idea how to know which one I bought?

[Zelot]

I just took apart 2 carbon-zinc batteries for the carbon rods. According to this: http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/03/19/experimental-arc-furnace-melts-anything/
you can make a carbon-arc furnace with it. Right now I am working on the resistor/transformer thing.