Obtaining Al in Australia...

[inferno]

Before a mod bans me, ive been looking for weeks, but as far as i can see there is no source of Al powder in Australia. Skylighter can't ship Al powders overseas, there is one by-product Al they have, which is in limited supply, and the minimum order is AU$60 which is mroe than im prepared to spend, seeing as anything i need cant be shipped, id have to waste 50 bucks on paper or something. You get my point.

I cant find it in craft stores (well ive only tried one, but its a bloody big one) and as for paint shops, whos going to give Al from a paint store to a 14 year old?

So if there are any other available sources, please tell me. Fireworks and pyrotechnics are way to overgoverned here, the only legal fireworks you can buy are sparklers. Which means you have to make your own, however it is *VERY* hard to obtain any oxidizers or fuels here, except for KNO3, sulfur, and a few other little things.

If noone knows a source in Aus, is it possible to isolate the Al in sparklers?
thanks.

[Polverone]

I'm afraid you'll probably be banned anyway, seeing as you've started a topic with your very first post. It would probably be possible to isolate aluminum (or whatever metallic powders are present) from sparklers by crushing the composition from the wire and dissolving any soluble materials in water to get the metal. But this is a ridiculous way to get it. If you really, truly must have Al powder, go to <a href="http://groups.google.com" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com</a>

Type in "rec.pyrotechnics" in the search field. Now, limit your search to the current newsgroup (click the radio button marked "Search only in rec.pyrotechnics") and search for "ball mill" aluminum. You will get dozens of threads on making aluminum powder from aluminum foil in a special ball mill. I've never tried this method as I just order what little Al powder I use. It sounds like a long, messy, and potentially hazardous process. But I'm sure it's still better than reprocessing sparklers.

(edit)
If you can't/won't make a ball mill, I notice that at least one of the rec.pyrotechnics threads contains a claim that Al powder good enough for beginners can be made in a blender (with water, not dry). I've never made anything in a blender but milkshakes and salsa so your mileage may vary.

<small>[ April 13, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Polverone ]</small>

[mrloud]

Keep looking in paint and hobby stores. Al powder is there to be found. I have found Al powder in a small 300g - 400g tin of silver paint. The tin I had had warnings about keeping it away from oxidisers and not letting it dry out or it may spontaneously ignite. Fantastic stuff that was.

[angelo]

Some of the guys from the <A HREF="http://hop.to/ozforum">OzForum</a> might be able to help you.

<small>[ April 13, 2002, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: angelo ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

Ball milling works, and isn't any messier than milling charcoal. Starting with Al foil takes a while, since you have to cut up loads of foil into little pieces to start with, and you need to mill it for longer.
But if you start with the fairly common 300-400 mesh spherical Al (like the paint store stuff), then it's quicker (a day of milling is fine) and gives a good product.

Like Angelo said, if your question is specific to Australia then you're better off asking in the Oz Forum. It's more likely that people will be able to help you.

[J]

I'll leave this topic open because there are many new people around since the last Al topic, and they might have suggestions for new sources.

Al powder (300 mesh, shperical) is used in the resin industry as a filler. Places that sell resin often have other metal powders (Zinc being the most useful after Al), and bulk quantities of Acetone.

I once did a few quick tests with making Al powder in a coffee grinder. I found that the powder was milled a lot finer in the test time period if it was heated with a blowtorch before being ground. This melts it momentarily, making it brittle.

[Demolition]

Obviously someone didnt look hard enough. :rolleyes:

<a href="http://www.acechem.com.au/" target="_blank">http://www.acechem.com.au/</a>

A search threw the archives would of found it for you.

<small>[ April 13, 2002, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: Demolition ]</small>

[inferno]

I guess i didn't :(

However in another forum i saw this link http://www.firefox-fx.com/ - it has everything, able to be shipped overseas! (except very very fine powders) so thanks anyway

[inferno]

Crap i forgot to say also, firefox sells everything - even toluene and H2O2 30%.

------------------
To avoid making two posts in a row, edit the first one. - J

<small>[ April 13, 2002, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: J ]</small>

[Zach]

ive got "silver" paint too, with pretty fine al powder in it... the problem is the shellac that its bound with. ive tried dissolving it in paint thinner, acetone, alcohols (metheyl, ethyl, isopropyl...), and then attepmted to filter it out. i ended up with alot of aluminum powder in the filter, with very little on the filter. I gave up a while ago but now im interested again, since i saw this topic.

z

[kingspaz]

try a different filter maybe....could you let it settle then pour most of the alcohol off first. then when you put it on the filter this time it would be more in a clump and not go into the filter so much. i'm not good at explaining am i?

[Zach]

thank you, kingspaz, you did a fine job of explaining it. whelp, i dissolved the paint in some alcohol and put my filter in the bottom of a coffee can, poured the mix into the can, and turned around to find the lid ( so i could let it settle overnight w/o evaporating ). my humongous ass hit the can and spilt it all over: me, the wall, the floor, some furniture and some nice redwood lumber. so back to the basement for me... :mad:

[Azazel]

Hi little inferno dude :)
im from same country as you... if you want aluminium powder go to a radiator repair garage. You can look these places up in the Yellow pages i think. Even "Dome Spinners" will be able to provide you with aluminium powder. So look up metal spinners and radiators in the yellow pages.

The radiator repair guys often use AL powder for some kind of leak detection or filler or some crap in radiators. i have seen the tubes in which they come in. Its a Cylinder pretty much filled with fine AL powder. Be carefull with it please this stuff in your blood stream can cause unpleasant effect in the future. Alzheimers disease and shite like that.

Also the metal spinners turn flat metal sheets in metal domes. They do this by spinning the metal sheet from its centre at a high speed. They then push a roller thingy {its like a small wheel) near the centre of the sheet [where its spinning] and slowly push the roller forwards and diagnaly outwards. eventually the metal sheet is pushed into a dome shape... very cool thing to watch... so there ya go all those people who ever wondered how the hell metal circles and domes are made... these guys would most likely have AL powder on their floors because they use the shite 24/7....

hope it helped
:p :D :cool: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[green beret]

Demolition, does ace chem sell to the public, I fuckin hope so, I emailed them but havent heard back , ahhh the stuff I will buy---
A few litres of 50% H202
25kg of KNO3
Some NH403
Oh man I hope they sell to the public.....
Please god, make them sell to the public, please, please, please.....
Demolition please tell me they do........
Holy Shit, all those chemicals...all mine.....

[Demolition]

Yep. :) Just give them a ring,I find it alot easier then having to wait around for an email.

[da man]

Demolition, do they deliver to sydney, etc? Whats the price like? Have u bought things from there before?

(BTW, go on msn)

[Azazel]

all i gota say is roflmao :D :D :D they gots red nitric, potasium nitrate, al powders, all the acids one would need... not bad...

ok so what kind of list does your name go down on when you buy this shite ????????????

[FragmentedSanity]

Demolition - did you actually order anything from them? i so how'd it go?
do you know if certain chems are restricted or they'll just sell the lot to anyone?

anyone else from Australia dealt with these guys?
do they have such a thing as a catalogue they will send you?

what precautions are advisable when ordering?

mmmmmmm mercury :p

[Azazel]

i wana buy a whole litre of mercury and then i will go out and buy one of those little indoor novelty fountains... you know those ones made out of fibreglass and they have like a tiny little waterfall and water trickles down the thing into a pool below... and it recycles all of the water...

well anyways i wana get one and fill it with mercury that would be cool... i hope it would work out properly... hehehe liquid metal water fall hehehe

[green beret]

Them fucks at acechem........

I rang em and said can you deliver, and they said no,
you will have to come into our shop.

Damn it to hell, I cant go to South Australia.

Anyone know of a place like that on the mid north coast of NSW?
If I lived near acechem I would pay an "after hours visit" and help myself to thier products.

[FragmentedSanity]

what did you expect?
fuming nitric through the post? you know all the restrictions on what you can and cant mail.
you could try finding a licenced courier and having them pick it up and deliver it. Did you bother to ask if that was a blanket policy on all chems or just hazmats?
Delivery within Australia has the same problems as buying from overseas - thats why we cant get al powder from skylighter.
A slightly personal question tho - do you sound like a kid on the phone? Did you have a legit sounding cover. MUST come into the store sounds a little like - come in and let us take your photo pyrokiddy. and exactly what chems did you enquire about?
or you could just suck it up and take a road trip I spose.
what I want to know about are their prices.

[Anthony]

Indoor mercury waterfall...

You're not intent on having kids are you? Just if you do, they're going to be pretty funny looking...

[PYRO500]

the little pump that comes with the litttle waterfall would not be nearly powerful enough to lift the liquid metal, if you culd put it in a negative pressure acrylic case with a powerful pump then you'd be in busnuess, BTW, has anybodyever seen the big old HG electrode rectifiers? those things are cool by themselves

[da man]

Green beret, theres a great chem supplier at liverpool, in NSW, don't know if thats at all close to you but if it isn't they can deliver the chems for about $15. They sell almost everything you would need, except 98% nitric :( But they have mercury, 70% nitric, 98% sulphuric and oleum, potassium, ammonium, barium and any other nitrate, chlorates (though they are very expensive) and almost everything else. The prices are somewhat expensive, about $35 for 2.5L of 70% nitric and $80 for 2Kg of KNO3, which is pretty expensive. They also sell "finely powdered aluminium", though im not sure what mesh, so you'd have to phone up and inquire. They even have perchloric acid 70%! Here's there site, go to index of products for the list of things they sell: <a href="http://www.bacto.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.bacto.com.au</a> And they do sell to the general public, i've bought most of my chems from there.

<small>[ April 21, 2002, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: da man ]</small>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I found that the powder was milled a lot finer in the test time period if it was heated with a blowtorch before being ground. This melts it momentarily, making it brittle.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Nope, it's actually because a lot of the aluminum was oxidized. Small amounts of the oxide will make aluminum much more brittle. If you hold the blow torch to the aluminum long enough, you'll end up with a whitish powder, Al2O3.

[The Great Milenko]

Thats a really kickass chem house da man, would they deliver to melbourne? have you bought 70% nitric acid from them? I really want some KN03 and some 98% Suplhuric, but to be able to also buy even 70% nitric would be so f'n sweet :)

<small>[ April 23, 2002, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: The Great Milenko ]</small>

[da man]

Yeah, i've bought nitric there without any troubles. I've bought other chems too, there quite a big company, so they never ask questions, they just send you whatever you ask for. I know they can deliver within NSW, but im not sure they can deliver to melbourne, but if they do, i imagine it is going to cost you, depending on how they deliver it. Phone them up or send an email asking if they can deliver to melbourne and how much it costs. I've found a list of lots of chem suppliers within australia, so i might be able to find one within Melbourne that sells nitric KNO3 and H2SO4, most of them do, im just trying to find one that sells more concentrated nitric acid.

[The Great Milenko]

I doubt you'll find commercial nitric thats any stronger than 70%, that'd just make is too easy for people like us :rolleyes:
But thanks heaps for telling us about this place, think of all the things I will be able to make :)

[Azazel]

H2SO4 is no problem. get the strongest grade Sulfuric Acid from your local hardware store. Just ask for Cement cleaner... If its not strong enough set up something to remove water from the solution... anyone know the boiling point of h2so4 ???

just watch out when u do this shit dont breath in h2so4 gas you will regret it...very much. If the boiling point of h2so4 if far above 100 degrees C then just boil out the water... but if it has a lower boiling point then water set up an outdoor distilling unit.

does this shite work... i would say it does.

[drstrangelove]

A big hello to all the Aussies.
If you want the aluminium powder badly enough you can get it. I have serched high and low in this country for aluminium powder and I have never seen it for sale in any hardware, car repair, boat supplies, art supplies but if you really want it you will have to ring a chemical supply house. Now I know if your a really young person ordering from a chemical house can be stressful and worrysome.
Dont worry!! Its just a business, just like bunnings or mitre ten, I have ordered from the chemical supply houses many times and now I love going to the chemical supply house and checking out all the cool stuff and reading what businesses use what chemicals and for what reason.Good Luck.

[green beret]

Thanks Da Man, they are real expensive though. Still a very good supplier, thanks! Also, do you have any other good web links for Oz? Email me if you want.

Fragmented Sanity, you sounded pretty arogant in that post, look at bacto, they can send it, did you really think I thought they would send it through the post.......
Anyhows, no I dont sound like a kid. Also, I didnt enquire about any particular chems, and I didnt even talk to them on the phone it was via email.

No hard feelings dude. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Demolition]

Damn right their expensive.$37 dollars for 500 grams of UREA :rolleyes: where I can buy 400 grams at a local DIY store for $3 dollars.

<small>[ May 01, 2002, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Demolition ]</small>

[green beret]

I dont know why they make it so expensive. Maybe they do it to make it restrictive, so little punks dont bother buying it.

Is acechem that expensive? Bacto are really cool, its a pity about the price, are there any cheaper ones that will deliver?

[FragmentedSanity]

Sorry if I sounded arrogant - sometime I just have bad days :p
It seems odd that they have no delivery system tho.
Bacto on the other hand may have their prices through the roof because the do deliver.
When I first saw your comment that ACE didnt deliver - my first thought was that there would be a simple way to amke some quick cash.
IE - I do a road trip - buy a bunch of chems in bulk - repack them and sell them off to all the little pyros - no questions asked - for an inflated price, and send them via a hazmat certified courier.
would only work for things like Nitric - al powder and other commonly sought after products - But would it really be that hard to set up a legit chem reselling business.
But I still think a blanket policy against delivery sounds damn strange - its not good business practice.

[Arkangel]

A pyro company in the UK told me recently that couriers no longer deliver pyro/explosive materials at all. If I wanted their good stuff I had to collect. Apparently this is all since Sep 11. These guys sell C4 etc, so how they deliver to quarrymen etc is beyond me.

I also noticed in a post office that Parcel Farce refuse to carry any kind of Hazmat for "the safety of their employees". It would make more sense to train and equip their employees and capture the business, but then I guess that attitude explains why they are so deeply in the shit.

<small>[ May 01, 2002, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</small>

[da man]

I think the main reason why bacto is so expensive (and most other suppliers for that matter) is because the products are very pure! Usually 99%+ purity. So whenever buying there, go for the TECH grade, it is less pure, so is much cheaper, though it is still alot more pure than we need (97%+). If you look through it, there are some things worth buying, like 2.5 litres 70% nitric for $33, which is still somewhat expensive but certainly worth buying if you can't find it anywhere else.

I put a list of all the chemical suppliers that i think are good in the Oz forum if your interested. Though none of them are much cheaper than bacto. I found a hydroponics store that sells 1Kg of NH4NO3 for $1.50 in Sydney! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I'll post it in the Oz forum too if you are interested.

[0EZ0]

That'd be great da man. I could name some of my sources too, not that i have many :( . But i'll contribute all the same.

[mr.evil]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Damn right their expensive.$37 dollars for 500 grams of UREA where I can buy 400 grams at a local DIY store for $3 dollars.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Check the agrarical shops, i have buyed 25kg. Urea for 23$, it is quiet pure.(about 95%)

Cya

[green beret]

Thats Cool Fragmented Sanity, I know what you mean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I think the acid prices at bacto are pretty reasonable, and a few other things too, but alot of it is just not worth it. $80 for 2kgs of KN03!!

Da Man Please post any info you have, we will all apreciate it!

<small>[ May 02, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: green beret ]</small>

[da man]

Green Beret, you said that acechem don't deliver. I have emailed them and they do, to Sydney at least. They said that its $10 for non-hazmat chemicals less than 2Kg, via mail. And its about $50 for up to 25Kg of hazmat chemicals.

btw, i posted the chem suppliers and hydroponics place that sell NH4NO3 at the Oz forum (my names huntsmen there).

[FragmentedSanity]

Ah - now that sounds more reasnoble.
Like I said - no delivery sounded odd.

[0EZ0]

Interesting link for Aussies in search of any metal powders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<a href="http://www.metalpowders.com.au/" target="_blank">Australian Metal Powders</a>

:D :D :D :D

P.S Found this link at rec.pyrotchnics

<small>[ May 03, 2002, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

[Pyroboy]

Thank you!! good work!
I can't believe such a place exists in Australia. With all my searching for such a place and I couldn't find it with a URL that is so obvious.

Have a look at this page <a href="http://www.metalpowders.com.au/products/nonferrous%20powders.htm" target="_blank">http://www.metalpowders.com.au/products/nonferrous%20powders.htm</a>
they even metion use for explosives and fireworks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Do you have a price list yet? or have you been in contact with them?

[0EZ0]

Pyroboy, no i have not contacted them yet. I was going to email them yesterday for a price list and customer terms, conditions etc. But i did not get round to doing it.

The person who referred to this site on rec.pyrotechnics said he got a kilo of Al for $12! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Finally an Australian source for metal powders. I would have bought some from bacto but price stopped me. This way it can be bought in bulk for relatively cheap hopefully. :p

I hope that you don't have to own a license or anything just to buy from them. Since they list "Explosives" and "Fireworks" as some of the applications of their powders. Also i am quite young, so purchasing Al powder from them could be difficult <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

<small>[ May 04, 2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

[Pyroboy]

A kilo for $12!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

This sounds almost to good to be true. I don't think they would ask for a license or anything like that because they also metion using their powders for art supplys. OEZO if you'd like to chat about this with me further then email me at rocketman696969@hotmail.com

[0EZ0]

That'd be great Pyroboy. Expect an email from me soon. :)

[green beret]

Aussie metal powders sells Al powder for 10$ a kg, that was when I phoned a few months ago so it may have gone up by two dollars.

da man, I emailed the pricks and they said they dont deliver?? :confused:

Maybe they were suspiciuos about me for some reason, I asked them do they sell to anyone, maybe they got sus about that? :confused:

Anyhow I might just phone them and ask again...

Also that hydroponics bloke in QLD, ask him for a 10kg bag of KN03, its cheaper per kilo then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Stone]

Does Oz Forum exist anymore? The link no longer works.

[blake7777]

In Australia a company called Langridge Colours (in Melbourne) are the people who import Al powder and then bottle it for art shops, I had some dealing with them as I work in the film industry pyro side in Sydney, and they will send small sample via post, otherwise it is all bulk ordering, but it is amazing how much can be obtained via a sample bag.

They will also give the contacts of the art shops which do sell Al powder, it was from the artist supplies in the Rocks in Sydney which gave me the link to the bulk supplier.

Hope this helps.. :)

[Dr.M]

I have problems getting chemicals too, I live in belgium. A stupid monkey lands is what it is :mad: I am going to al local stores, paint stores, etc and I try to get as many adresses for stores with good chems, bit hno3 .. in belgium ... FORGET IT :'( anyway, if other people that come here are belgian please help :) and if you want my list just ask.