Other peroxides.

[FadeToBlackened]

What besides methenamine (hexamine, whatever), acetone, and ether can form peroxides? Alcohols maybe? Anyone know?

[John456]

Ether, alchohols i think, formaldahyde

[CragHack]

if you evaporate organic liqueds completely you will usually get a VERY VERY unstable peroxide left over that will more than likely explode on contact. that is why you always leave small amounts of organic liqueds unevaporated. (the info here was from megalomania)

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...Æ

[HMTD Factory]

Plenty of organic peroxide around, just not all of them are explosives.

Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, for example, is
not an explosive.

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Virtually all peroxydes are explosives when dry and concentrate!!!!!
H2O2, peracetic acid, performic acid ( a very performing one http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif chemist joke!), diethylether peroxyde, diisopropyl ether peroxyde, methyl-ethylether peroxyde, dimethylacetal peroxyde,..., perbenzoic acid, ....Nearly a full library of chemical names are listed in accidents reports from peroxydated distillation residue exploding, polymerisation catalyst (often peroxydes),...
Make a little search!

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[HMTD Factory]

So you mean "methyl ethyl ketone peroxide" is
an explosive? heheh...

[FadeToBlackened]

We use MEK peroxide in shop class as an activator for polyester resins. When our teacher mentioned methy ethyl ketone peroxide i immediately started thinking 'ketone peroxides eh? hehehe'.

[zaibatsu]

I hear (in the KIPE or something of the seies) that MEKP is an explosive, used as a catalyst in resins and stuff like that. It says it is similar to AP, and all you do is pour it out (its in solution) and let the liquid evaporate. I have also seen Benzoyl peroxide as a hardener in wood filler - any info?

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Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)

[FadeToBlackened]

I seem to remember seeing something about that while looking through the archives or something.. try searching for it im pretty sure theres something about it.

[HMTD Factory]

I wonder MEKPeroxide is an explosive. It didn't go off when I torched it with a blue flame lamp.

[FadeToBlackened]

It didn't do anything?.. I have some pdfs that refer to it as explosive... odd..

[HMTD Factory]

It did catch on fire though, with black smoke.

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Come on guys, MEKP has been discussed zillions times!
Less sensitive and powerful than AP but still an explosive!
I doubt it to burn making black fumes since the methylethylketon doesn't burn that way and that when peroxylated...you have some more oxygen; usually black fumes comes from benzenic, acetylenic, ethylenic polymers (polystyrene, polyterephtalate,....)

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[HMTD Factory]

I got pure MEKPeroxide, it burns with black smoke. Anyway not all peroxides are explosives. If the compound cannot sustain a
reaction by itself then it would not explode.

Phil, I think your generalization is too much. Personally, I avoid words like "all", "always", "impossible".

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Very wise advice HMTD that's the reason why I used "VIRUALLY all" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif ! You definitely need a certain amount of reactive Oxygen in the peroxyde in a way to make it explode but this can be low as in benzoyl peroxyde C6H6-CO-O-O-CO-C6H6 (this one for sure burns/detonates leaving black fumes).
I stil find stange that it burns with black fumes since butanone doesn't do it... some impurities or an additive in it maybe?
For sure the ethyl group stabilise a little the cyclic form but not enough to avoid detonation when confined!

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[fightclub]

Hey HMTD, MEKP is an explosive. Does nitroglycerin explode when you take a flame to a small drop? No it burns. Yet, it is very explosive.

Your MEKP is most probably solubilized in solvents like Dimethyl phthalate which makes the solution much less explosive/easily explosible.

When you talk about MEKP, I assume the one you are talking about is the dimolecular (just like the acetone peroxides methyl ethyl ketone peroxide has dimer).

Dimolecular (C4H8O2)2 is the most common and used commercially in solutions (liquid hardeners). It is a Colorless pleasent-smelling oil, which can only be distilled in the presence of water in a vacuum. D.(15°C) 1.042. unsoluble in water, soluble in alcohol, ether, benzene. The mixture with water boils under 88mmHg pressure at 48°C, and at 130mmHg at 56°C. The oil explodes when heated over 100°C or on
contact with concentrated Sulfuric acid.

So if your "MEKP" is pure it will be an oil and explode on contact with conc. H2SO4 (or when heated >100°C!!!

[CodeMason]

These chemicals will form explosive peroxides (in alphabetical order). Acetal, Acetaldehyde diethyl acetal, 2-Acetyl furan, Anethole, Anisaldehyde, Anisole, 2-(2-Butoxyethoxy)ethyl, 2-Butoxyethyl acetate, iso-Butyl ether, n-Butyl ether, n-Butyl glycidyl ether, Cellosolve, Cumene, Cyclohexene, Cyclopentadiene, Cyclopentene, Decahydronaphthalene, Decalin, Di-allyl ether, Di-iso-amyl ether, Dibenzyl ether, Di-n-butyl ether, Dicyclopentadiene, 1,1-Diethoxyethane, Diethylacetal, Diethylene glycol dimethyl ether, Diethyl ether, Diglyme, Dihydropyran, 1,2-Dimethoxyethane, Dimethoxymethane, 1,4-Dioxan, Diphenyl ether, Di-iso-propyl ether, Di-n-propyl ether, Ether, Ethyl cellosolve, Ethylene glycol dimethyl ether, Ethylene glycol ethyl ether acetate, Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether, Ethylene glycol monoethyl ether, Ethylene glycol monomethyl ether, Ethyl ether, 2-Ethoxyethanol, 2-Ethoxyethyl acetate, Ethyl vinyl ether, Furan, Glycidyl n-butyl ether, Glyme, Isoamyl ether, Isobutyl ether, Isopentyl ether, Isopropyl alcohol, Isopropyl ether, Isopropyl benzene, 2-Methoxyethanol, Methylal, Methyl cellosolve, Methyl iso-butyl ketone, Methyl vinyl ketone, Propan-2-ol, Styrene, Tetrahydrofuran, Tetralin, Vinyl acetate, Vinyl pyridine, plus many more. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

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Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net

[The Great Milenko]

There seems to be a lot of disagreement as to wether or not mekp is infact and explosive, or atleast it may seem that way, but if it is,
would there be a way to extract the mekp from the hardener stuff?
I just bought some, and I was going to just evaporate it like the improvised primary explosives manual says, but now I'm somewhat disapointed that it seems I just wasted $6 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Anthony]

Completely off topic, but amazing none the less:)

<fascinating thing>

Take a look at the start date of this topic - 9th April - exactly one year ago!

</fascinating thing>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

Liquid MEKP can be detonated.

[The Great Milenko]

Really?! Cool, would it have to be detonated with a cap? Because I doubt they'd just sell a pre-packadged explosive that only needs to be set off with a spark. My apologies also Anthony for being off topic, I just could'nt make any sence of wether or not it was indeed true that you could evaporate mekp solution and be left with an AP like substance.

<small>[ April 10, 2002, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: The Great Milenko ]</small>

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

I think I should clarify. I was not saying that solid MEKP solution can be detonated; I was saying that 100% liquid MEKP can be detonated. Liquid MEKP can be prepared by a reaction similar to the formation of acetone peroxide, except methyl ethyl ketone is used instead of acetone. Temperatures for preparing the liquid isomer should be around 20C. If you can get temperatures down quite low (I have found that around -10C to -20C is about the range needed for high yields), you can prepare a high yield of the solid isomer. Solid MEKP dissolves in liquid MEKP. Liquid MEKP is a very powerful solvent. I would recommend preparing a dynamite when using liquid MEKP, such as an ammonium nitrate / MEKP mix. That will boost power, because MEKP is very oxygen-negative. A KNO3 / liquid MEKP mix will explode on contact with a fuse; pure liquid MEKP will just burn very quickly. A while back I ignited 4mL of liquid MEKP with a fuse; a towering 15 foot pillar of orange flame erupted skyward, and was gone within 0.25 seconds.

[0EZ0]

From what i have read, 'MEKAP' is the crystalline explosive very much similiar to Acetone Peroxide chemically and in synthesis.

Originally from "Improvised Primary Explosives" by Dirk Goldmann:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">

MEKAP
Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone Peroxide

Synonyms: none

I've never found exact characteristics in chemistry books so i can't tell you the exact formula or detonation velocity.
But it has the same power and velocity as Acetone Peroxide.
They are chemically related substances.
Work with 1 gram for a very strong cap.

Here's something for European readers:
I've often seen in drug stores a hardener containing 33% by weight MEKP. The cost is about $2 for 200ml. It's a syrupy liquid, the liquid is allowed to stand for a few days at room temperature.
The white powder remaining is MEKP and should be handled like Acetone Peroxide.

Preparation:

Chemicals:
Methylethylketone (also known as 2-Butanon)
Hydrogen Peroxide (30%)
Sulfuric acid (30%) or Hydrochloric Acid (30%)

Materials:
Glass beaker or plastic film cannister (PE)
Filter paper
(Heat source)

Manufacture:

1)Cool the ingrediants down to approx. 0-10 Degrees Celsius

2)Mix 6ml of the MEK to 10ml of the H2O2

3)Add slowly 0.5ml of the HCl or H2SO4 to the mixture. Let sit overnight.

4)If no MEKAP precipitates, heat the mixture in a water bath at 40 Degrees Celsius for 2 hours

5)Handle MEKAP like Acetone Peroxide

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I recently bought 500ml of MEK at the hardware store for $AU6.50. It was sold as PVC Primer fluid. I hope to attempt making MEKAP soon.

Hope this helps :)

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

I assure you that your end product will (most likely) be liquid, since solid MEKP dissolves in liquid MEKP, and because at more "normal" temperatures like what you mentioned will produce more of the liquid form than the solid form. If you want the solid form, either use very low temperatures, or let the MEKP sit for a *long* time and wait for the liquid form to evaporate off. I consider the liquid form to be more valuble; there is no point in preparing the solid form (acetone peroxide is cheaper, easier to acquire the precursors for, and more powerful than solid MEKP).

[BleedingLips]

Ever heard of ascaridole?
I was browsing The Merck Index and found this interesting naturally-occuring peroxide...

<img src="http://www.chem.ualberta.ca/~vederas/Resource%20Folder/MT00_161_IIIC1.gif" alt="" />
(this was the only online pic of the molecule that I could find)

Here is some info on the plant oil that contains a significant amount of it:

American Worm seed oil (Chenopodium ambrosioides), known as Chenopodium oil, is colourless or yellowish, when freshly distilled, becoming deeper yellow and even brownish by use. It has a peculiar, penetrating, somewhat camphoraceous odour (the peculiar odour of the plant), and a pungent, bitter taste.

The yield of oil from the crushed fruits is 0.6 to 1.0 per cent.

Its chief constituent is Ascaridole, to the high percentage of 60 to 70 per cent, an unstable substance, allied to cineal, readily decomposed on heating, with the production of a hydrocarbon. It also contains p-cymene, a-perpinene, probably dihydro-p-cymene and possibly sylvestrene. Betzine and choline have also been reported.

I don't have The Merck Index right now, but if you have it, it'll be an interesting read... type it up and have a look (and please post it for the forum members to have a look :) )

I heard that the oil is illegal in many countries because of its instability <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

<small>[ April 12, 2002, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: BleedingLips ]</small>

[Rhadon]

Okay, why not. This is an excerpt from "Römpp", a chemistry lexicon.

On oil of chenopodium
================
Essential oil gained from chenopodium abrosioides, formerly used against worm parasites in animals and humans. Today obsolete because of its side effects. Oil of chenopodium contains mainly ascaridole (60 - 75%), ascaridole glycol, p-cymole (20 - 30%), alpha-terpinene and limonene.

On ascaridole
==========
Ascaridole is a monoterpene peroxide. Density: 1.01. Melting point: 3° C. Boiling point: 113 - 114° C (@ 2.6 kPa). Racemic. Solves very well in organic solvents, almost insoluble in water. Since it is an endoperoxide [that means that it is cyclic] it is unstable and decomposes when heated over 130° C. If it is treated with acids, it decomposes explosively.

Since this is your second post I must praise the effort to find something new. Though, I doubt that this peroxide is as useful as HMTD, for example:
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Since the yield from the fruit is very low, it should be quite expensive. </font></li> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">It has a low oxygen balance.</font></li> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Yet, if it is a 'powerful' explosive, then they won't sell it OTC, will they?
</font></li><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Since I have plenty of time right now, I could try to make a peroxide out of 2-undecanone. It will also have a low oxygen balance, nevertheless I'll probably try it out.
In any case, 2-undecanone is an interesting compound since it can be used as a repellent against cats :)

<small>[ April 12, 2002, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]</small>

[The Great Milenko]

Well would 40% mekp solution be able to be detonated Pu239 Stuchtiger?

[vulture]

I think ascaridole won't explode because the peroxide bond isn't the only bond which keeps the molecule together. In AP and HMTD the molecule is kept together ONLY by peroxide bonds, which are very weak and decompose easily.-

[Rhadon]

Vulture, I think you're basically right. But I'm sure that it'll explode when exposed to acids, the lexicon I found this in is a trustworthy source.

BleedingLips, did you find the ascaridole in connection with explosives?

[vulture]

I'm sure it's a trustworthy source, i have the Römmp compact in german, it's awesome!
It also says explosive decomposition in contact with acids, would be a nice option for a binary initiated explosive!

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

"Well would 40% mekp solution be able to be detonated Pu239 Stuchtiger?"

What's the solvent?

[The Great Milenko]

Dimethyl phthalate.

[A_W]

Some years ago I bought a small bottle of MEKP by curiosity only. It is a slightly yellowish, syrupy liquid (like conc. H2SO4) in a small plastic bottle with two safety signs on it (it were theese that caught my interest): CORROSSIVE and OXIDER. The bottle had a long warning text on it. In case someone is interested, I will try my best translating it from Norwegian to English :) :
"Contains: Methylethylketoneperoxide......25-50%
Flammable when in contact with combustible materials. Dangerous if swallowed. Explosive hazard if heated in a confined space. Keep container closed and stored at a cool area. Store separated from reduction agents, accelerators, metal compounds, acids and bases. In case of eye contact; flush with large quantitys of water. Use proper protective clothes, safety gloves and safety goggles/face shield. If swallowed; do not induce vomiting; get medical aid immediadetly and show this container. STORE OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN"
I haven`t found any uses for this until I read this post.
"Pu239 Stuchtiger" had a VERY interresting idea of mixing it with ammoniumnitrate :D . Will this be stable/safe/sensitive? (PS: ONLY ammoniumnitrate/MEKP)

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

The Great Milenko: I doubt that could be detonated. It certainly could combust in a vacuum though.

A_W: Liquid MEKP / ammonium nitrate would probably be sensitive, because the liquid MEKP isn't going to dissolve the ammonium nitrate to any degree. If you could use a non-polar oxidizer instead of ammonium nitrate, then I would recommend using that.

Just a general warning: liquid MEKP is VERY painful to get on your skin. I got about a drop of it on my finger; my finger quickly turned bright red, the liquid MEKP was absorbed into my skin, and my finger began to hurt like shit; more painful than concentrated sulfuric acid. The interesting part was that the pain and redness subsided after a few minutes, leaving no visible injury.

[kingspaz]

could the MEKP be decomposed by enzymes inside body cells, like skin?

[xoo1246]

Maybe the MEKP does reduce your cells. :p

[A_W]

I`ve just poured a small amount of 25-50% MEKP on a glass plate to see if the solvent will evaporate, leaving white crystals left. I haven`t noticed any crystals yet, but I will leave it over night.
fightclub- Is MEKP supposed to have a pleasant smell?? I got quite a shock when I opened the bottle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> When the fumes reached my face, was sure that I had opened a bottle of nitric acid. It smelled exactly like HNO3.

[DBSP]

Where did you get the MEKP A_W?

[A_W]

I got the MEKP at a small, but quite well equipped paint store. I have also seen it at hardware stores. The conc. was 25-50%, and cost me approx. 40-60 nkr (I can`t remember exactly, it was 2 years ago).

[xoo1246]

DBSP: It's easiely found where you buy plastic cement.

[DBSP]

You mean like plastic padding. Excactly what product/brand?

[xoo1246]

Yes, curant to plastic padding, I have some at home, if I remember it I will take a picture of the tube and post it tomorrow.

[xoo1246]

Ok, it's tomorrow and here are the pictures of the tube containin 50% butyloperoxide, not MEKP as I thought.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/01.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/02.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/02.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/03.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/03.jpg</a>

[DBSP]

Funny I have a tube of hardener that loks just the way your does, shure it's not mine? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[vonK]

You could try a boat building place for MEKP.
Here in NZ they use loads of the shit, as well as MEK and acetone.
And they do sell to the public.

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

On the subject of liquid MEKP's oxidizing power: I soaked a dead, brown maple leaf with liquid MEKP: it soon became translucent white.

[A_W]

Like H2O2, MEKP probably also has a bleaching effect, wich caused the leaf to turn white.

Today I went to my lokal paintshop just to have a look. Next to some other chemical bottles, I saw some small plastic bottles, saying "Reducant" on the label. It also said on the lable: contains MEKP 25-50%! I am not really a "Megalomania" on chemistry, but I know that a reducant is the opposite of an oxider.
I`m pretty sure that a peroxide is an oxider. Can someone explain why it said reducant?
(PS: Sorry if "reducant" is not the proper english word, but you know what I mean.)

[vulture]

Organic peroxides can act as a reducer and oxidizer in the same time.
First comes the oxidizing effect, as the peroxide bonds break and release oxygen. After that, you are left with a hydrocarbon which can react with the oxygen it has just released.

Strange though, peroxides should normally be labeled as oxidizers...

[A_W]

I didn`t notice what safetysigns it had on it. It could have been an "oxider" sign. It was the product itself that was called reducer. What are theese chemicals (reducants) used for in the industry? As it was found in a paint store, it was probably to be used in the home or something.

[rikkitikkitavi]

I think that it was just a stupid name , having nothing to to with oxidizers or reductants.

Peroxides serve as radical initiators in epoxi and similar compounds.
they are genereally powerful oxidants since they easily decompose and release at first single atom oxygen (radical)

This oxygen can react with the rest of the molecule (reductant, like vulture wrote) since peroxides genereally decompose exothermically, the heat released initiation oxidation.
Since single atom oxygen is such a strong radical it often takes deeeeeep freezing to stabilize peroxides.

/rickard

[Demolition]

Ive only ever seen 20% MEKP in a 20 ml bottle used for fiberglass hardening IIRC.
However you can purchase 500ml's of MEK for around $6 dollars Australian in DIY stores.Its used for priming PVC pipe and its red in colour.

[0EZ0]

Demolition, what you have described is what i have. MEK PVC Primer Fluid. 1000ml/L of MEK. The red colour is a dye put in probably to help with visibility, as normal MEK is a clear liquid like acetone.
It burns with an orangey yellow colour and no black carbon is released from it when it burns. It also seems to leave the red dye behind as a residue.

[Rhadon]

I said that I wanted to try making a peroxide out of 2-undecanone. I didn't await an enhancement in comparance to AP or HMTD, I just did it because I wanted to try it out. Here's my results:

I added a few drops of 2-undecanone to an excess of a well-cooled mixture of HCl and H2O2. Here we already get to the main problem:
The melting point of 2-undecanone is 15° C which was above the temperature of my HCl / H2O2. It solidified immediately. Thus the "border surface" (the area in which reactions are possible) between H2O2 and the alcanone is very small. This shows to be some kind of dilemma: Low temperature and almost no peroxide being formed or higher temperature and a higher possibility of the resulting peroxide detonating spontaneously. I chose the first way because the risk seemed to too high to me: I expect methyl nonyl ketone peroxide (let's call this one MNKP) to be at least as unstable as AP, yet not as dangerous (it's not likely to be powerful).
I allowed the resulting solid to dry. After ~3 hours most of the liquid was gone, the solid was still there. When I came back ~12 hours later, there was nothing left excecpt for the paper the crystals were on. It had some dark stains on it which could be due to a spontaneous combustion, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the compound doesn't seem to be worth both the effort and the money to give it another try.

EDIT: I should add that most of the unreacted 2-undecanone should have liquified again after 3 hours.

<small>[ April 30, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]</small>