Anthony
March 17th, 2003, 07:33 PM
the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 48
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 30, 2001 11:54 AM
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Has anybody ever tried to produce potassium perchlorate from potassium chlorate and sodium persulfate (sodium peroxodisulfate)?
Does it worth trying? thanx
J
Moderator
Posts: 605
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read that KClO3 may be converted to KClO4 by electrolysis of the solution. I think that the voltage must be maintained at 6.4v for hundreds of amp/hours.
J
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct me If I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that you can get the perchlorate of a metal by adding perchloric acid to the hydroxide of that metal. So, to get potassium perchlorate, one would add perchloric acid to potassium hydroxide.
Mammut
A new voice
Posts: 39
From: Essen,NRW,Germany
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 30, 2001 02:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey
I´m sorry i have no tip for u, but i have
80% Perchlorate-acid and i say if u do ca.
5ml on a paper and give fire to it, little
stars and smoke u can see [very cool]!!
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 108
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats how perchlorates are formed - by adding X OH to HClO4
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 348
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 30, 2001 03:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yer i read somwhere that u can melt potassium chlorate and it will react with oxygen in the air to form the perchlorate. If this is possible it could be difficult to melt the chlorate without it decomposing.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 04:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whoah, that sounds pretty simple. I'm guessing one would heat it over a low flame until it melts. Would there be any danger involved?
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 108
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 04:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you really going to heat a chlorate over a flame???? Your crazy, most likely it would just bust out and burn away.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 348
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 30, 2001 04:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i haven't tried heating it and have no intention of trying to because chlorates decompose really easily. Pesonly to make pechlorates i would eletrolise sodium chlorate and which would give me sodium pechlorate then i would convert this to potassium pechlorate by reacting with losalt.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 04:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, hey, calm down!
I'm not crazy, I didn't mean just shove it over a flame, if that's what you thought. Anyway, looks like that idea's going to the trash...
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 348
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 31, 2001 03:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry.....i never ment to sound mad!!!
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 31, 2001 04:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Potassiumchlorate will melt at ca. 356 deg. C and decompose at 400 and above. If molten it will take oxygen from the air and form KClO4. So if you have very, very pure KClO3 you could heat it (no flame of course) to exact that temperature an probably obtain KClO4. Questionable is how pure the KClO4 will be or how long it takes for a specific amount of KClO3 to convert to KClO4.
Note that the slightest impurities may cause decomposition = boom
I suggest only melting very little amounts...
Converting KClO3 electrolytically requires Pt-anode, Cu-cathode. 10V to 14V & 0,1 A/h per cm2 surface. For ~12g KClO3 in 200ml H2O it'll take ca. 3 hours, or set a higher power.
Another method is KClO3 and H2SO4 (sulphuric acid)at low temperatures, i have the info somewhere, if i find it i'll post it.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 01, 2001 10:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/perchlorate_EN.html" target="_blank">http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/perchlorate_EN.html</a>
You just have to hold it at it's melting temperature for a few hours.
The trouble with the electrolysis mehtod of forming perchlorates is making sure it has converted once it hasd formed, as it takes a long time.
The problem with using perchloric acid is that most human beings can't get it!
the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 48
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 01, 2001 02:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But is there a possibility without the use of electrolysis cells or heating equipement?
I once read somewhere that mixing p. chlorate and sodium (or ammonium) persulfate with H2O and heating the solution would give potassium perchlorate.
I think it's because persulfate is a stronger oxidizer than perchlorate !?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 07:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forming KClO4 from KClO3 (or the sodium salt) is simply a auto oxydoreduction:
KCLO3 + 3KClO3--> KCl + 3 KClO4
Thus you should have if you do a 100% reaction (what is almost never the case) 3/4 of you starting KClO3 converted into KClO4; you willthen have 1/4 of KCl to take away by recristallisation.
Perchloric acid can be done by adding HCl conc (max 37%) to NaClO3 (solid) and reflux boil it gently for hours.
HCl is very volatile!!!!!
HCl + NaClO3<===> HClO3 + NaCl (cristallises out)
HClO3 + 3 HClO3 + heat and air--> HCl + 3 HClO4.
Don't try mixing NaClO3 with a stronger acid like conc H2SO4 because HClO3 is an explosive acid when concentrated.
By distillation it is then possible to recover the HClO4 as a 79% solution (over the acid is explosive!!!!).
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 08:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NH4ClO3 is very prompt to self autooxydoreduction into a weird mix of dangerous compounds like NH4NO2, NH4NO3, NH4ClO2,NH4ClO, Cl2O, ClO2, NH4ClO4, NCl3,... the mix can decompose spontaneously even in solution and lead to ignition-explosions-detonations.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 02, 2001 08:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, those compounds seem to be quite dangerous, chlorine dioxide explodes on formation, this can be seen if you put some conc. H2S04 onto some KClo3.
Frequent Poster
Posts: 48
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 30, 2001 11:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anybody ever tried to produce potassium perchlorate from potassium chlorate and sodium persulfate (sodium peroxodisulfate)?
Does it worth trying? thanx
J
Moderator
Posts: 605
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read that KClO3 may be converted to KClO4 by electrolysis of the solution. I think that the voltage must be maintained at 6.4v for hundreds of amp/hours.
J
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct me If I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that you can get the perchlorate of a metal by adding perchloric acid to the hydroxide of that metal. So, to get potassium perchlorate, one would add perchloric acid to potassium hydroxide.
Mammut
A new voice
Posts: 39
From: Essen,NRW,Germany
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 30, 2001 02:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey
I´m sorry i have no tip for u, but i have
80% Perchlorate-acid and i say if u do ca.
5ml on a paper and give fire to it, little
stars and smoke u can see [very cool]!!
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 108
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats how perchlorates are formed - by adding X OH to HClO4
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 348
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 30, 2001 03:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yer i read somwhere that u can melt potassium chlorate and it will react with oxygen in the air to form the perchlorate. If this is possible it could be difficult to melt the chlorate without it decomposing.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 04:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whoah, that sounds pretty simple. I'm guessing one would heat it over a low flame until it melts. Would there be any danger involved?
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 108
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 04:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you really going to heat a chlorate over a flame???? Your crazy, most likely it would just bust out and burn away.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 348
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 30, 2001 04:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i haven't tried heating it and have no intention of trying to because chlorates decompose really easily. Pesonly to make pechlorates i would eletrolise sodium chlorate and which would give me sodium pechlorate then i would convert this to potassium pechlorate by reacting with losalt.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 04:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, hey, calm down!
I'm not crazy, I didn't mean just shove it over a flame, if that's what you thought. Anyway, looks like that idea's going to the trash...
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 348
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 31, 2001 03:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry.....i never ment to sound mad!!!
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 31, 2001 04:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Potassiumchlorate will melt at ca. 356 deg. C and decompose at 400 and above. If molten it will take oxygen from the air and form KClO4. So if you have very, very pure KClO3 you could heat it (no flame of course) to exact that temperature an probably obtain KClO4. Questionable is how pure the KClO4 will be or how long it takes for a specific amount of KClO3 to convert to KClO4.
Note that the slightest impurities may cause decomposition = boom
I suggest only melting very little amounts...
Converting KClO3 electrolytically requires Pt-anode, Cu-cathode. 10V to 14V & 0,1 A/h per cm2 surface. For ~12g KClO3 in 200ml H2O it'll take ca. 3 hours, or set a higher power.
Another method is KClO3 and H2SO4 (sulphuric acid)at low temperatures, i have the info somewhere, if i find it i'll post it.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 01, 2001 10:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/perchlorate_EN.html" target="_blank">http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/perchlorate_EN.html</a>
You just have to hold it at it's melting temperature for a few hours.
The trouble with the electrolysis mehtod of forming perchlorates is making sure it has converted once it hasd formed, as it takes a long time.
The problem with using perchloric acid is that most human beings can't get it!
the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 48
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 01, 2001 02:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But is there a possibility without the use of electrolysis cells or heating equipement?
I once read somewhere that mixing p. chlorate and sodium (or ammonium) persulfate with H2O and heating the solution would give potassium perchlorate.
I think it's because persulfate is a stronger oxidizer than perchlorate !?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 07:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forming KClO4 from KClO3 (or the sodium salt) is simply a auto oxydoreduction:
KCLO3 + 3KClO3--> KCl + 3 KClO4
Thus you should have if you do a 100% reaction (what is almost never the case) 3/4 of you starting KClO3 converted into KClO4; you willthen have 1/4 of KCl to take away by recristallisation.
Perchloric acid can be done by adding HCl conc (max 37%) to NaClO3 (solid) and reflux boil it gently for hours.
HCl is very volatile!!!!!
HCl + NaClO3<===> HClO3 + NaCl (cristallises out)
HClO3 + 3 HClO3 + heat and air--> HCl + 3 HClO4.
Don't try mixing NaClO3 with a stronger acid like conc H2SO4 because HClO3 is an explosive acid when concentrated.
By distillation it is then possible to recover the HClO4 as a 79% solution (over the acid is explosive!!!!).
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 08:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NH4ClO3 is very prompt to self autooxydoreduction into a weird mix of dangerous compounds like NH4NO2, NH4NO3, NH4ClO2,NH4ClO, Cl2O, ClO2, NH4ClO4, NCl3,... the mix can decompose spontaneously even in solution and lead to ignition-explosions-detonations.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 02, 2001 08:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, those compounds seem to be quite dangerous, chlorine dioxide explodes on formation, this can be seen if you put some conc. H2S04 onto some KClo3.