zaibatsu
March 15th, 2003, 03:20 PM
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 05, 2000 09:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have made discoveries in my basement:
The aim of the experiment was to make some calcium nitronate; based on my knowledge in chemistry, I know nitromethane to be slightly acidic, so does acetylene. Calcium carbide or acetylenide is thus a base and I thought that an exchange of salt could take place with an equilibrium oriented to the right due to the gas evolution out of the liquid system...
CaC2 + 2CH3-NO2--> Ca(CH2-NO2)2 + C2H2
But I noticed that
1)Calcium carbide and nitromethane doesn't react if dry.
2)Calcium carbide on contact with water evolves acetylene and generates calcium oxyde and hydroxyde. And this gives the desired product, for sure recognisable by the nitronate salt color (orange to dark brown).
So a few drops of water allow the reaction to start.
CaC2 + H2O--> CaO + C2H2
CaC2 + 2 H2O -->Ca(OH)2 + C2H2
I think the reaction to be
CaO + 2 CH3-NO2 --> Ca(CH2-NO2)2 + H2O
Ca(OH)2 + 2 CH3-NO2--> Ca(CH2-NO2)2 + 2H2O
The compound is a precipitate of brownish colour. Once dry it burns, puffs, explodes and sparks like gun cotton. My product is for sure not pure due to the impurities inside the calcium carbide, but I do think a cleaner product may be acheive by mixing pure calcium oxyde or hydroxyde with nitromethane and maybe the help of a few drops of water. A cleaner product would have better properties, I'll find out later when I'll have calcium oxyde or hydroxyde. Since properties are not yet known don't play with too big quantities of the product.
Maybe it is a new way of sensitisation of NM mixes.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Starforce
Frequent Poster
Posts: 46
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 08:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It sound very interresting.
What you have make are the explosives salts of Nitromethan.
I think every hydroxyde can build an explosive salt.
Can you tell me what is when i mix aceylene with Chloraceton?
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 345
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 01:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds good!
Starforce, I think you are new, so i will say, Ph.Z is one of a few people on this forum that a lot of other members (I know I do) look up to and respect, for his knowledge of chemistry! so saying what you said is probably not good, sure, if you know what you are talking about, then fine, but what you said was not very good. "I think every hydroxide can form an explosive salt"??
Nitromethane isn't a hydroxide, and all hydroxides don't form explosive salts! what about NaOH! or water!! The reason nitromethane does so is, as Ph.Z said, because it is slightly acidic (due to the nitrate group withdrawing electron density from the rest of the molecule to leave an unshielded proton that can be lost) so it can split into a CH2NO2- and a H+ ion, the anion (negative one) can then combine with a metal (Ca in this example) to form the nitronate salt.
There, thats my chem. lesson for the day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Oh, and Ph.Z, nice signature but here's another one:
A physicist made a bigger explosion than a chemist ever did :D
------------------
I think moshing is a sign of what christians would call "the apocalypse" <a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
[This message has been edited by Jhonbus (edited October 06, 2000).]
xilo24
Frequent Poster
Posts: 45
From: PRIVATE SANCTUARY
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 05:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whoah thats really interesting do you have a degree in chemistry and do you know where ubechlor is i saw his name in another forum but i was too lazy to sigh up just to ask if he would like to come to the forum
the place is called <a href="http://www.deja.com/group/alt.engr.explosives" target="_blank">http://www.deja.com/group/alt.engr.explosives</a>
------------------
BABY DIES OF AN OVERDOSE OF TIME OR COLD TURKEY WITHDRAWL OF BREATH
W BURROUGHS
NAKED LUNCH
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 345
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no, i don't have a degree in chemistry, just a great interest.
I am currently doing a degree in physics though.
And yes, i also was going to ask where uberchlor went... he is another one like Ph.Z
------------------
I think moshing is a sign of what christians would call "the apocalypse"
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 345
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 07:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oops, yes i meant nitro group there, not nitrate
------------------
I think moshing is a sign of what christians would call "the apocalypse"
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 02, 2001 03:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds very interesting...
I'd never heard of a nitronate ion before. Are you sure that's its correct name?
What about using ammonium hydroxide?
NH4OH + CH3NO2 -> NH4CH2NO2 + H2O
Or you could just bubble NH3 through CH3NO2.
I'll try it and see what happens... Wish me luck!
Does the calcium nitronate dissolve in water? I can see it's an ionic compound, and almost all ionic compounds do, but some don't e.g. lead carbonate. All ammonium compounds dissolve in water I think (trying to remember chemistry lessons from several years ago...), so this could be a good way of purifying the product.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 09, 2001 10:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You imagine I have already tried it:
*saturated ammonia solution gives heat and a dark brown solution of NH4CH2NO2 but :-( I was not able to isolate the salt by evaporation (even in the cold)-I suspect the compound to be very unstable it decompose into its elements maybe due to an equilibrium in solution:
NH4OH + CH3-NO2 <==> NH4CH2-NO2 + H2O.
*saturated solution of NaOH (solid prills) gives a lot of heat (you might expect an explosion or a fire!!!) but the isolated salt don't give interesting results (except if confined and dry).
The NaCH2NO2 is difficult to dry because it picks up water from air. It burns with puffing flammes. I guess it would explode if confined in an enclosed metal pipe and heated by a surrounding heat source like Black powder or Na chlorate/suggar or a fire.
*hydrazinium hydroxyde give slowly a brown colour but very very slowly... so I gave up.
*KOH gives a precipitate with a lot of heat also (fire or explosion to expect without water cooling or if big quantities are made).
Less difficult to dry than the Na salt. Burn fiercely like NC outside and once confined surely it will go boom.
*Ca salt I made has the advantage of being dry, precipitate, burn fiercely and explode when confined (very easy to use).
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 10, 2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think the NH4OH one is a reversible reaction? Yeah, could be.
I'll stick to the calcium salt.
Do you have any information on storage stability, incompatabilities etc.?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 11, 2001 08:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm working on it but remember that I made that discovery one month ago, so I can have ideas of the stability of it for a longer period. All I know is that it is easy to dry because it is a precipitate and that it doesn't pick up water from the air. It seems to be stable towards friction or shock; doesn't detonate in the open with a flamme. I have made a device to be tested at my father's house in the country side (less dangerous and suspicious than in the city where I live): this to test the explosivity when confined or actuated by a primer.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 11, 2001 08:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oups again-I must be tired:
I can't know the stability on a longer period.Something I can tell is that it smells a little bit like ammonia (sign of a decomposition? or a reaction? or transformation)... or maybe acetylen.
Following Ubi, methanenitronate of Hg turns slowly into fulminate of Hg.... maybe mine will trun into fulminate of Ca? Anyway it is an interesting compound.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From: the cretaceous period
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 11, 2001 01:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:Originally posted by xilo24:
do you know where ubechlor is i saw his name in another forum but i was too lazy to sigh up just to ask if he would like to come to the forum
the place is called <a href="http://www.deja.com/group/alt.engr.explosives" target="_blank">http://www.deja.com/group/alt.engr.explosives</a>
woah thats weird I was at that forum half a year before I came here and I read one of uberchlor's posts that had a link to this forum and I was looking for a more relaxed explosives/weapons forum to go to because most of the guys there are all assholes
of course I knew very little about chemistry when I used to post stuff there
(before I hit the books for a couple months)
and wasn't used to all of the lingo that they use. but now it seems like common knowledge to me and I might go there once a week just to see what is going on
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 12, 2001 05:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a mather of facts if you take a closer look to the same forum (alt.engr.explosives) you will see that I often go there.... usually I sign with the same name as here!
I can't talk in the name of Ubi but I do think he stil read the forum but keep quite since a while because- wel that's what he wrote me- he dislike the idea of someone using his knowledge to kill himself or others....He also is borring reading always the same shit (and questions) and repeating himself every two weeks because guys don't take the time to go in the archives.He wants to progess and know more about the field... so he found out better to read and write down what he don't know yet... and sometimes when he realy think it is appropriate to reply. He has become a true genious in his kind... he learn a lot by himself and has a big pile of files collected during the last 4 years. He has become a real searcher and wants to make full studies...scientificly...what doesn't seems to be the deal of a lot of KEWLBOMBERS and KIDS playing arround here in the NG.
Personnaly, I agree with him but I know that whatever I do, there will always have people who can find the way to kill others finding the info's somewhere.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 12, 2001 06:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's a large discussion concerning the ethical problems caused by giving people pyrotechnic information at the pyro forum at <a href="http://www.xinventions.com," target="_blank">www.xinventions.com,</a> under the heading of "E-mail me if you need info" or something like that.
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 05, 2000 09:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have made discoveries in my basement:
The aim of the experiment was to make some calcium nitronate; based on my knowledge in chemistry, I know nitromethane to be slightly acidic, so does acetylene. Calcium carbide or acetylenide is thus a base and I thought that an exchange of salt could take place with an equilibrium oriented to the right due to the gas evolution out of the liquid system...
CaC2 + 2CH3-NO2--> Ca(CH2-NO2)2 + C2H2
But I noticed that
1)Calcium carbide and nitromethane doesn't react if dry.
2)Calcium carbide on contact with water evolves acetylene and generates calcium oxyde and hydroxyde. And this gives the desired product, for sure recognisable by the nitronate salt color (orange to dark brown).
So a few drops of water allow the reaction to start.
CaC2 + H2O--> CaO + C2H2
CaC2 + 2 H2O -->Ca(OH)2 + C2H2
I think the reaction to be
CaO + 2 CH3-NO2 --> Ca(CH2-NO2)2 + H2O
Ca(OH)2 + 2 CH3-NO2--> Ca(CH2-NO2)2 + 2H2O
The compound is a precipitate of brownish colour. Once dry it burns, puffs, explodes and sparks like gun cotton. My product is for sure not pure due to the impurities inside the calcium carbide, but I do think a cleaner product may be acheive by mixing pure calcium oxyde or hydroxyde with nitromethane and maybe the help of a few drops of water. A cleaner product would have better properties, I'll find out later when I'll have calcium oxyde or hydroxyde. Since properties are not yet known don't play with too big quantities of the product.
Maybe it is a new way of sensitisation of NM mixes.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Starforce
Frequent Poster
Posts: 46
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 08:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It sound very interresting.
What you have make are the explosives salts of Nitromethan.
I think every hydroxyde can build an explosive salt.
Can you tell me what is when i mix aceylene with Chloraceton?
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 345
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 01:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds good!
Starforce, I think you are new, so i will say, Ph.Z is one of a few people on this forum that a lot of other members (I know I do) look up to and respect, for his knowledge of chemistry! so saying what you said is probably not good, sure, if you know what you are talking about, then fine, but what you said was not very good. "I think every hydroxide can form an explosive salt"??
Nitromethane isn't a hydroxide, and all hydroxides don't form explosive salts! what about NaOH! or water!! The reason nitromethane does so is, as Ph.Z said, because it is slightly acidic (due to the nitrate group withdrawing electron density from the rest of the molecule to leave an unshielded proton that can be lost) so it can split into a CH2NO2- and a H+ ion, the anion (negative one) can then combine with a metal (Ca in this example) to form the nitronate salt.
There, thats my chem. lesson for the day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Oh, and Ph.Z, nice signature but here's another one:
A physicist made a bigger explosion than a chemist ever did :D
------------------
I think moshing is a sign of what christians would call "the apocalypse" <a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
[This message has been edited by Jhonbus (edited October 06, 2000).]
xilo24
Frequent Poster
Posts: 45
From: PRIVATE SANCTUARY
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 05:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
whoah thats really interesting do you have a degree in chemistry and do you know where ubechlor is i saw his name in another forum but i was too lazy to sigh up just to ask if he would like to come to the forum
the place is called <a href="http://www.deja.com/group/alt.engr.explosives" target="_blank">http://www.deja.com/group/alt.engr.explosives</a>
------------------
BABY DIES OF AN OVERDOSE OF TIME OR COLD TURKEY WITHDRAWL OF BREATH
W BURROUGHS
NAKED LUNCH
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 345
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no, i don't have a degree in chemistry, just a great interest.
I am currently doing a degree in physics though.
And yes, i also was going to ask where uberchlor went... he is another one like Ph.Z
------------------
I think moshing is a sign of what christians would call "the apocalypse"
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 345
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 06, 2000 07:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oops, yes i meant nitro group there, not nitrate
------------------
I think moshing is a sign of what christians would call "the apocalypse"
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 02, 2001 03:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds very interesting...
I'd never heard of a nitronate ion before. Are you sure that's its correct name?
What about using ammonium hydroxide?
NH4OH + CH3NO2 -> NH4CH2NO2 + H2O
Or you could just bubble NH3 through CH3NO2.
I'll try it and see what happens... Wish me luck!
Does the calcium nitronate dissolve in water? I can see it's an ionic compound, and almost all ionic compounds do, but some don't e.g. lead carbonate. All ammonium compounds dissolve in water I think (trying to remember chemistry lessons from several years ago...), so this could be a good way of purifying the product.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 09, 2001 10:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You imagine I have already tried it:
*saturated ammonia solution gives heat and a dark brown solution of NH4CH2NO2 but :-( I was not able to isolate the salt by evaporation (even in the cold)-I suspect the compound to be very unstable it decompose into its elements maybe due to an equilibrium in solution:
NH4OH + CH3-NO2 <==> NH4CH2-NO2 + H2O.
*saturated solution of NaOH (solid prills) gives a lot of heat (you might expect an explosion or a fire!!!) but the isolated salt don't give interesting results (except if confined and dry).
The NaCH2NO2 is difficult to dry because it picks up water from air. It burns with puffing flammes. I guess it would explode if confined in an enclosed metal pipe and heated by a surrounding heat source like Black powder or Na chlorate/suggar or a fire.
*hydrazinium hydroxyde give slowly a brown colour but very very slowly... so I gave up.
*KOH gives a precipitate with a lot of heat also (fire or explosion to expect without water cooling or if big quantities are made).
Less difficult to dry than the Na salt. Burn fiercely like NC outside and once confined surely it will go boom.
*Ca salt I made has the advantage of being dry, precipitate, burn fiercely and explode when confined (very easy to use).
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 10, 2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think the NH4OH one is a reversible reaction? Yeah, could be.
I'll stick to the calcium salt.
Do you have any information on storage stability, incompatabilities etc.?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 11, 2001 08:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm working on it but remember that I made that discovery one month ago, so I can have ideas of the stability of it for a longer period. All I know is that it is easy to dry because it is a precipitate and that it doesn't pick up water from the air. It seems to be stable towards friction or shock; doesn't detonate in the open with a flamme. I have made a device to be tested at my father's house in the country side (less dangerous and suspicious than in the city where I live): this to test the explosivity when confined or actuated by a primer.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 11, 2001 08:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oups again-I must be tired:
I can't know the stability on a longer period.Something I can tell is that it smells a little bit like ammonia (sign of a decomposition? or a reaction? or transformation)... or maybe acetylen.
Following Ubi, methanenitronate of Hg turns slowly into fulminate of Hg.... maybe mine will trun into fulminate of Ca? Anyway it is an interesting compound.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From: the cretaceous period
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 11, 2001 01:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:Originally posted by xilo24:
do you know where ubechlor is i saw his name in another forum but i was too lazy to sigh up just to ask if he would like to come to the forum
the place is called <a href="http://www.deja.com/group/alt.engr.explosives" target="_blank">http://www.deja.com/group/alt.engr.explosives</a>
woah thats weird I was at that forum half a year before I came here and I read one of uberchlor's posts that had a link to this forum and I was looking for a more relaxed explosives/weapons forum to go to because most of the guys there are all assholes
of course I knew very little about chemistry when I used to post stuff there
(before I hit the books for a couple months)
and wasn't used to all of the lingo that they use. but now it seems like common knowledge to me and I might go there once a week just to see what is going on
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 12, 2001 05:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a mather of facts if you take a closer look to the same forum (alt.engr.explosives) you will see that I often go there.... usually I sign with the same name as here!
I can't talk in the name of Ubi but I do think he stil read the forum but keep quite since a while because- wel that's what he wrote me- he dislike the idea of someone using his knowledge to kill himself or others....He also is borring reading always the same shit (and questions) and repeating himself every two weeks because guys don't take the time to go in the archives.He wants to progess and know more about the field... so he found out better to read and write down what he don't know yet... and sometimes when he realy think it is appropriate to reply. He has become a true genious in his kind... he learn a lot by himself and has a big pile of files collected during the last 4 years. He has become a real searcher and wants to make full studies...scientificly...what doesn't seems to be the deal of a lot of KEWLBOMBERS and KIDS playing arround here in the NG.
Personnaly, I agree with him but I know that whatever I do, there will always have people who can find the way to kill others finding the info's somewhere.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 12, 2001 06:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's a large discussion concerning the ethical problems caused by giving people pyrotechnic information at the pyro forum at <a href="http://www.xinventions.com," target="_blank">www.xinventions.com,</a> under the heading of "E-mail me if you need info" or something like that.