Cutting Tools

[AfterRain]

I read a post (an old post) bout atms and i seen some one had talked about Oxyacetylene, burn bar, grinding wheel . I went to google.com and tryed to search for burn bars , but it gave my all this girll shit... does anyone have any info where i can buy any of these things at ? Also does anyone have any good info on any of these objects?
Thanks alot

[NoltaiR]

Well the problem with ATMs now-a-days (at least where I live) is that they are no longer out in the open (used to they were built outside of convinience stores just far enough away that the store clerk could watch what was going on.. ). The problem with that was people would simply come at night with a crow bar or something to pry the ATM machine from its bolts into the cement platform below. This was hard but with a couple good crowbars welded to a chain you can hook it up to a heavy car and pull slowly, the ATM could be lifted just high enough that the metal rods could be sawed. Then the ATM was thrown into a trailer or bed of a truck and off it went.

Now ATMs are built into well fortified walls; they are all equipped with AT LEAST one camera; and they are in locations where other people would pass by 24 hours a day. Such as in malls near the night securities entrance, or in the 'pulse' ATM setups along highways (which are always made so that drivers on the street could easily see if someone was trying to break into one).

Well anyways the point to this reply is that if you do go ahead with this... have a very well thought out plan, and possibly have a few skilled friends along with you on the project.

[Tyler_Durden]

Go for armored cars... you will have better luck that way. ATM's aren't worth the trouble.

One couple of criminals had this gig goin:

They have a truck w/ a top, and the back is filled with brush. One guy sits in the back of the truck, in the parking lot, with a high powered rifle. Probably wearing a ghillie suit, or otherwise well camoflouged. The back of the truck is facing the ATM at a bank.

Now, the accomplice is in the car, or somewhere, waiting for the armored truck folks to roll on in to fill up the ATM. This is where it gets interesting. One guy gets out of the armored truck. The criminal shoots him once in the head with the rifle. The accomplice, in wait, goes and gets the cash from the truck, probably by getting a key from the driver, or whatever. After the driver is dead, getting the loot isn't really a big obstacle.

At this point, the criminals drive to an abandoned patch of woods and burn the car up pretty well. No evidence.

This has been done by them about a half dozen times, and they are still on the loose, likely still doing it to this day.

...

It's a simple plan, but it has proven effective for whoever does it.

I saw it on a "Most Wanted Criminals" show of some kind... it even had a nifty little re-enactment. :D

[Energy84]

<a href="http://www.cdreissues.com/WesternTicker/CANOE-wire.CRIME-Armoured-Car-Heist.html" target="_blank">Armored Car Heist</a>
This guy has been ripping off Armored Cars since 1998. He's always been well prepared, with at least two stolen vehicles parked in the area of operations. He also works alone everytime. Very smart man.
He's been successful 6 out of 8 times and is estimated to have gotten away with over $100000 every time. I'll try to find more links later.
Unfortunately, he may have been caught a couple of days ago when he opened fire on a pig... But at least he got him :)

[BoB-]

I've been wondering recently if ATMS are open to EMP attack, some sort of electronic disabling would be needed since most ATMS now come standard with GPS tracking.

Anyways, on topic, Burn bar is probably a synonym for a thermic lance, which is basically an aluminum or magnesium tube burning with pure oxygen running through it, they burn underwater and are used quite often in maritime emergencies.

[AfterRain]

YOOOOO im not doin' atm shit, the reason i did this post was to get info about these tools, thats all !!! anyone have any info on it, thanks !

[AfterRain]

BoB-
that is a good idea, if atms can be hit up this way, that could kill the GPS.
Also BoB- you got any websites for these Oxyacetylene, burn bar, grinding wheels? Thanks alot.

[S. Toppholzer]

try <a href="http://www.colemetal.co.uk/" target="_blank">this one</a> ...

[nbk2000]

Words you'll want to try in various combinations for finding the burn bars are:

Torch
Oxygen
Lance
Exothermic
Thermic
Cutting
Cut
Bar
Underwater
Rescue

I'd forget about any form of electronic attack againt an ATM. Firstly, the probabilty of success is very low. Next, cost of investment for any workable device would be high, and require highly technical skills. This defeats the purpose and violates many RTPBs.

The guy who's robbing the armored cars and shot it out with the cops is doing well. He's apparently wearing a vest, working alone, and keeping his mouth shut.

Tyler, the guys you mentioned are currently successful, but the fact that there's two of them, and that they're head shoting the guards from ambush means that if one guy gets caught, he's sure to name the other guy as the shooter to save his own ass from death row. Plus, bodies always draw increased police attention.

In the states, most bank robberies and armored car robberies are left to the state police agencies to solve since they're so common and readily solved by common police techniques. Only those of noteriety, such as multi-million, great sophistication, or involving body counts, get FBI attention. And that's a bad thing for the crime, since the FBI is generally much more competent than the state yahoos.

You'd ideally be able to do your job solo, using less-lethal weapons like pepperspray, TASERs, etc to incapacitate the guards and avoid publicity generating bodies that mandate greater police scrutinity.

[Jhonbus]

NBK - I don't think the guy hiding in the distance with the rifle has much to worry about - if he sees his accomplice getting dived on by a gang of cops, he knows where to aim...

[S. Toppholzer]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> You'd ideally be able to do your job solo, using less-lethal weapons like pepperspray, TASERs, etc to incapacitate the guards and avoid publicity generating bodies that mandate greater police scrutinity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Pepperspray? I thought of that many times and yet I am somewhat doubtful about using a pepperspray on an armed guard. To be honest I have never tried pepperspray on anyone (I did use two shots of 9 mm CS gas cartridges shot from a gas pistol on an attacking gypsie onece with grat success, though).
Do you think that guy will really be knocked out sufficiently as not being able to grab his gun?

[Anthony]

It wouldn't knock him out, but it would incapacitate him. If he could locate/draw his gun he'd be firing blind. More likley than hitting you he'd hit some old lady and be up for manslaughter.

BTW, shooting gypo's - brilliant stuff, well done!

[nbk2000]

I'm not talking about the little handheld mace sprayers like you use against dogs. Rather, the ones that look like pocket dragons that are used for riot control.

These babies unleash a huge cloud of the hot stuff with force.

The canisters cost about $45, with inert trainers costing $20. Practice first on winos and street scum.

The neat thing about the inert ones is that they are exactly like the real ones, except for the filling. If one attached a pressurizing nipple, you could fill it yourself over and over and use compressed air or freon to reload them. You could even load them with HCN or hydrazoic acid for an immediatly lethal gas weapon.

Anyways, you approach from upwind, releasing a cloud as you go. His vision is obscured and his eyes swell shut. You're constantly moving, so he can't fire blindly at you without risking bystanders, plus he'll likely miss you anyways. I'm not concerned about the guard pulling his gun, or even firing it. What I WOULD be concerned with is if he can aim and hit me. THAT is the only important matter.

Being criminal, there's no restrictions on you as regards bystanders.

I'm thinking if you could mix some hydrazoic acid (HN₃) in with the peppergas, you'd not only have the benefit of the eye swelling and lung burning OC, but also the nausea, vertigo, and dizzyness inducing hydrazoic acid which would greatly increase the effectiveness.

I don't know about the stability of HN₃ when mixed with other substances though. It is, after all, highly volatile and explosive.

Perhaps lightbulbs that are filled with the mix, and pressurized with dry ice chips could be lobed as "grenades", instead of sprayed.

Jhonbus, you're quite right about the sniper not having to worry about his partner snitching. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> But even a dead crimey can lead to you. I'd make it a point (myself) to write in indelible ink (on a piece of surgical tape) the details that would lead to my crimeys capture in case he double crossed me, either killing or abandoning me to the cops, and stick it on my body under my clothes.

NEVER go down alone and trust no one. :D

<small>[ May 10, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[S. Toppholzer]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> BTW, shooting gypo's - brilliant stuff, well done! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">:D that was in Southern Spain. He tried robbing me by wielding a knife in front of me. I pulled out my Browning FN High Power 9 mm CS, pulled the slider, pointed it to him and said he simply should walk away, no hard feelings. He went mad though, pulled up his T-shirt slowly closing in saying "matar me, matar me" (kill me). I had n doubt that he would try his knife on me if he had been given the chanche. So I aimed at his chin and fired twice at a disdance of about two meters. He looked very astonished first wondering how come he's still alive. Two seconds later he realized something went very bad for him and went straight down on his knees crying "my ojos, my ojos!"
Off I ran. Unfortunately, some old lady witnessed the whole shit and thought I had just shot someone in his head.
Ten minutes later I was suddenly surrounded by police all with guns drawn. I slowly put my sidearm down to the ground...
At the police station they finally understood that this gun wasn't a real one with life ammo. The investigating cop informed me that such a weapon was illegal in Spain, pocketed it and sent me off. Well, I guess he came to like it a lot.
After returning home I immediately bought another one. I would never ever again want to be without such a preciuos piece of defense :cool:

<small>[ May 10, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Common mistake by people is to hold on to a weapon after using it.

Immediately after you've shot or stabbed someone, you have to wipe and ditch the weapon. If you can drop it into a river, down a flooded stormdrain, or a DEEP hole (think dozens of feet or more), than your pretty much covered.

The reason most murders are busted is because they still have the weapon around them. After all, they're thinking "Hey, it's already killed one person. I know it'll work on the next.".

:(

At least you didn't get imprisoned for it.

Though I think it would have been funny if the gun was real and you HAD granted the macho fuck his wish and killed him. :p

Wonder if you could pry open a CS cartridge and mix in some birdshot with the CS powder? Then, if you shot someone in the eyes, the birdshot would blind them if the CS didn't.

[S. Toppholzer]

Killing such a piece of trash? Nah. Ya know it's the same with stealing a car. Steal an old Volkswagen or get a hold of a Ferrari: The fine will be the same. So why being jailed for such an asshole?

You can open such a CS cartrifge. It's like a 9 mm round but without the bullet. It's made of brass and inside is a closed plastic container with the CS crytals. When fired, the plastic pops open, the heat converts the crytals in a fog that is ejected out of the muzzle of the pistol. Filling it with even small pellets is calling for hospital treatment. The barrel of such a pistol is partially sealed shut so no one could fire a live round. the lead pellets would seal the barrel - overpressure - bang - right in your face including the shrapnel from the barrel and the slide.

[Tyler_Durden]

A big problem with CS spray in the mainstream is peopl expecting it to instantly drop someone. It is a tactical defense tool, not some magic dust. As far as sheeple using it for personal defense against attackers/rapists/etc, you must spray to the face, and continually spray, so that they don't charge on blindly... which is very common. If I am 5 ft away from someone, and they pull pepper spray, and at that time I charge, I will be able to get close enough to do enough damage to incapacitate them temporarily UNLESS they spray, and continue to spray, until either they are running or I am rolling on the ground scratching at my eyes in pain.

Of course, none of us, I hope, would be in such a situation. Without some kind of firearm at hand, my second choice would be a combination of pepper spray and a knife. Spray them, and if they still get within grabbing reach, slice and dice 'em.

While on the subject, I would recommend everyone take a martial art, especially one that includes knife fighting. Don't take tae kwan do or karate or some other BS martial art that teaches archane techniques and limited ranges. If at all possible, go to a Jeet Kune Do academy. You will learn how to fight at all ranges, being striking, clinch, and ground... and you will learn both knife and short stick fighting.

Kali sticks are extremely deadly, and of course stick-type objects in general are VERY improvisable. Kali training will roll over to using a cain (french or normal), stick off of the ground, baseball bat, pipe, and about a million other things.

Jeet Kune Do has been called "scientific street fighting", and that is exactly what it is. It is 100% functional, they don't do kata and form bull shit, and, like I said, I cannot recommend it enough.

For weapons fighting, you can't beat Filipino arts. Their knife fighting and stick fighting techniques are arguably the best, and they don't bother with long bow/sword/spear or any other weapon art that will be nearly worthless in the real world.

At my JKD academy, they are having a CS spray session in the summer, to teach us techniques and tactics to properly use CS spray. I will spray someone in a "mock attack", and I will get sprayed while "mock attacking" someone.

I am sure many of you read the books on the forum about fighting, as well as others, but you really must practice techniques on resisting opponents in order to perfect your skills. Simply "reading a book" does very little on its own, but will help you greatly if you practice with a friend, and even more if instructed by a more experienced individual on your technique. Sparring is essential, as it helps you practice "street-style" fighting in a risk-free environment. I am not talking about Tae Kwan Do "I tap you on the thigh then we start over" sparring, I am talking strap on the sparring gloves and get it on until someone gives up. You wouldn't believe how much this helps your fighting ability unless you try it, and with as many opponents as possible.

Anyway, I am through ranting for now, I hope someone learned something from this post.

[PYRO500]

I would not JKD to anyone wanting a quick lesson in fighting, in fact I would not recomend any Karatie style to anyone wanting to quickly learn to fight learning a martial art takes time and that time to learn it must be used equally to learn to defend and attack. I took 7 years of Tang Soo Do (the art of the knife hand) witch at one point (very long time ago) was indistinguishable from TKD. now that's not to say that that any martial art is better than another, it is what you put into it that you get out. also the best schools will rarely use sparring gear, a major part of martial arts is control witch you learn by close/light/no contact sparring when you have gloves and stuff on they give you a false sense of securtiy in that it's ok to get hit. also some places offer self defense with their martial art, this should be looked for as it can teach you many practical things about week points in a confrontation and tactics such as removing a weapon from one's hands. Do not take any classes at places that are air conditioned, real professionals know to be effective you must be exposed to the harsh conditions that you may be fighting in pain (very profuse) sweating heat exaustion and worse problems. If you think onece you learn this that you will be a one man army and be able to take out 10 people think again, the best martial artists in real life are subject to the same laws of physics as normal people being there is no way someone can do some super kicks and kill an army, now assuming there is 2 or 3 fighters that attack you individually you may stand a chance but the only thing you can do in "jumpings" is eyestrikes and lots of em beacuse when thereis more than one you should consider your life in danger but that solution is not pretty.

[AfterRain]

A)Could you use any type of Circular cuttin' wheel such as a grind wheel to cut a square in a safe , so you could just reach in and grab money and shit?with out openn' the door, or could you
B)If you were to make a home made version of the Burn Bar , How/What would you need to do?
This is what i found on cuttin' tools if anyone cares.
<a href="http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/answers/720gases.jsp?tp=gases1" target="_blank">http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/answers/720gases.jsp?tp=gases1</a> <-- Bruning Bar

[Anthony]

Do you mean these things NBK?

<a href="http://www.guns2u.com/products/cs_gas/cs80_500ml.htm" target="_blank">http://www.guns2u.com/products/cs_gas/cs80_500ml.htm</a>

(Yes, those are the ones I was referring to. NBK)

If so, there's a source for us inhabitants of Europe.

Martial arts are good for fitness, stamina, confidence etc. But a 90lb kid can still beat a 200lb triple hard ninja-wannabe from 20 yards with a firearm :)

Afterrain, A) would work as long as the metal isn't particularly thick or hard, which it is going to be on any half-sharp safe. B) Is probably going to damage the contents of the safe. Anyway, length of steel pipe, threaded at one end, Use a threaded fitting on the pipe to attach to low pressure side of an oxygen regulator. Pack the pipe with steel wire/thin rods. Heat the end of the pipe with an oxy-acetylene torch then turn on the O2 and away you (should) go.

<small>[ May 18, 2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Mick]

using a cut-off saw for breaking into an ATM isn't really a good idea - you'll be there for way way way to long.
same goes with using a lance, or an oxy torch.

by far, the quickest way is to rip them out of the wall with a truck.
the only downside to ripping them out of the wall is you have to know where the GPS locator is in the ATM, so you can remove it as quick as possible.

i belive that alot of the newer ATMs have sensors to tell if they are been moved, or heated up.
I know in australia the ticket machines that you see on railway stations(in NSW, don't know about anywhere else) have "shock" sensors and heat sensors.

a few months back a local guy tried to rip an ATM out of wall. When he hooked the chain onto his car he connected it to the bumper bar.
obviously when he tried to drive off the ATM stayed in the wall, along with his bumper bar which had his licence plate attached.

[Ctrl_C]

I am 99% sure I could go down to a local 7-11, back through the wall, throw a winch cable around the atm, yank it out and be out of there in under a minute.

The GPS issue might be solved by immediately putting the entire atm in a lead box or similar...maybe concrete. Either that or temp put it in a very deep place, like 5 stories below ground...think many sublevels. The battery it runs on has to go out sometime...it's just a matter of waiting.

[S. Toppholzer]

If you'd drive off that ATM into the woods...
...how long would it take the cops in locating it?
Maybe one would be left with enough time cracking the baby :p

Or - Maybe even better: Get a closed truck with some fresh air supply that may enter the inside. While one is driving, the other one is opening it. Moving GPS signals should be tough to trace - I hope.

[Wicked]

EEP! Dont do that. Fill the cab with earth-grounded coper wire mesh. That would stop any gps single. :D heh heh it just got easyer, didnt it? Maybe you could set up a false becon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> just a few hints to what ive done with shit that has bugs/other little annoying shit in it. While your friends back there, or hes driveing, ur sittin there with a police scanner ready do dump it and burn your good ol' latex gloves. hee hee. OR, if you could find the right frequiency(the one its transmitting on), make a trancemitter to send random crap on that frequiency, it hasto be stronger than the gps becon itself, that is, if your using the kind that sends its data, as oposed to the satilite decideing. Maybe jam it with a small emp field, I have an electro magnet in my pcmcia slot with a switch, seeing as personal privacy went out the window years ago, and with the idiots of 9/11 making it so feddys can just barge in here at a seconds notice on "cyber terrorism" grounds, I had to think of something. muhaha :)

[Wicked]

Oh, I also had that idea to take out those bank vans, just get a semi and a flatbed, and take out the floor of it, make a re-inforced wall/roof for that flat bed, and a door that will close when you hit a button, all u do is have ur friends drive up and trap it, open the flatbed doors (or have an electronic one), and just slow down infront of it, then just take and lift it with that small crane or whatever, or a strong magnet (?). Then close the floor of the semi and drive off while your coper wire mesh either:
1) creates thousands of false radar blinks (for gps, if the satilite decides where it is, that wont work. so make it a really good mesh, and experiment with a simple ham radio.)
2) completely eradicate the single.

and while they are sitting in there brinks truck waiting with there uzis at the gun holes to shoot you(wouldnt an electro magnet just pick up all the guns and change and shit and send it to the roof of the brinks truck?) you release a mist of either or something, and they wake up on the side of the road, while you are sitting cozy in a large parking lot (it would be best if you parked outside of a grocery store, or somewhere that had a bunch of semis and you wouldnt stick out at _all_, but not a truck stop, grocery store or something, maybe a wallgreens.) cracking the bitch. afterwords, just smash the gps, and go driving down the highway, and just drop the brinks truck. Problem solved(id burn it first or something, maybe just blow it up with a hole bunch of ap or whatever.). I have successfully managed to rip off a car that had the lowjack things, just by having my friend tom (adult who already has a semi) just drive around while I sat back there and took out the lowjack, and looked at the pretty copper mesh. The mesh MUST be grounded, or it wont work.

[Wicked]

Actually, I think the magnet itself might fry the signel, I just thought about that. But, better safe than sorry. You might beable to just take a strong electro magnet and hook it to the atm while you move it. :)

[Wicked]

It just ocured to me, that you guys are going to mis enturprit "mesh", I mean like a screen, a really fine screen, possible a few layers of it, to fill the gaps. THERE CAN NOT BE ENOUGH ROOM FOR THE RF TO ESCAPE, AND IT MUST BE COPER + GROUNDED@!!$%%@ If its not, it will still send the signle. since coper is super conductive, the single will be grounded and nullified. :D

[Anthony]

I'm not sure whether a vehicle chassis will work as a true ground, but I believe tieing to the negative terminal of a battery has the same effect as grounding. Then, if the vehicle has a negative earth electrical system then tieing to the chassis should work...

This isn't first hand info, the robot wars guys go into this stuff for isolation/suppression, like encaging electric motors in grounded copper mesh.

[Wicked]

No no, I mean like, drag a wire or something, or a little metal coaster wheel, it shouldnt be too hard, just make the wire attach to a coper pole that has a coaster in it so it will go with the truck/car, whathave you. shit u could probly just drag the wire behind you, so long as it touchs the ground :D , like i said awile back, im not a chemist, but ima techy.

[Anthony]

Off topic, but it might be of interest to someone like S. Toppholzer.

I presume that these gas guns are like regular blank firing guns? If they are, then check the barrel restriction, some are a threaded insert and easily removed. If it's cast into the barrel then a minute or two with a drill should see it gone, the metal these things are made of isn't very hard so the should make quick work of it.

I have it on *very* good confidence that with an unblocked muzzle and a 9mm blank it's well capable of firing 4x.22 airgun pellets with wading. That's 4 x 14grains = 56gr + 5-10gr for the wadding. From what I can determine, standard 9mm bullets weigh around 120gr (correction welcome). All the pellets will penetrate 3/8" pine board and the gun cycles nicely too. Should work well with some solid lead slugs :)

Just in case you ever want to fire more than CS out of that thing...

[Wicked]

If any of you want to know, i took a 400 watt transiver in a coper screened box and tryed to get it to recive and transmit, no luck. lets do a small comparison for the idiots, 100 watts can go about 400 miles line-to-sight without even a bounce, 200 or so otherwise. :D have fun with that atm machine and brinks truck. heh.

[S. Toppholzer]

Anthony - I've only once tried this and was plain lucky - the darn think blew up after the third shot. These barrel of such a gun is also grooved twice at the side so it has its pre-determined breakng points.

Wicked - Sounds good enough! The only thing is that one really has to know if that Brink's is loaded or not.
On the other hand an ATM always has cash.
Yet better - think of a supermarket after closing time....

[Wicked]

Just wait outside a bank. A brinks truck should come ABOUT once a day, maybe every other. My mom works for a bank so I already know the vault codes and such. Heh Heh Heh, this one time, my moms boss was balenceing her box, she was shorted 800 dolars.

[Wicked]

meh, I forgot to add, you will have thirty seconds to knock the people out with a gas or something, or kill them before the alarm will sound. Brinks trucks alarms need to have the button held for thirty seconds, usually done by the driver.

[Ctrl_C]

I know we are getting WAY OT here but oh well. Ever see those "armored vans" that just look like regular vans with brinks or whatever painted on the side. They have no appreciable armor. Know why? Here's a hint...how much do you think steel plating wheighs? More than that puny non-dualie back axle can hold. I bet they have a cage in the back and thats it. Nothing that 5 mins and a gas powered grinding wheel couldn't take care of.

[Wicked]

No, the brinks trucks have a thin layer of kevlar. :( sorry to rain on your party.

[Anthony]

S. Toppholzer, I think the guns we are talking about must be differently made.

How thin is a thin layer of kevlar? Thick enough to stop handgun rounds, or thick enough to stop FMJ 7.62?

[Arkangel]

Off topic I realise, BUT, what sort of places sell these things, and how much do they/ammunition cost? Also, do they sell to non residents?

(Oh, and can we PUHLEASE put a lid on all this fucking nightrider horseshit? Just how many Brinks cars have been driven into semis in the history of the US? iirc this was a thread about cutting tools, specifically burn bars. :rolleyes: )

[Wicked]

5 brinks trucks. and it could stop a fifty cal. because it has 3 actual layers

layer 1: kevlar, 1cm
layer 2: sheet metal(teflon) 1 inch
layer 3: kevlar, 2cm

[S. Toppholzer]

wicked - it might stop a .50 cal but the windhield surely can't stop a .50 cal. There once was a guy named Bob Mathews and he and his comrades knocked out a Brink's truck. They forced it to halt on a mountain slope and then they fired three shots with a big calibre rifle right through the windshield. They showed the guards a sign "GET OUT OR DIE" and one comrade was sporting an imitation of a bazooka. Anyways the guards went shit scared, left the truck and Bob was able to snatch heaps of cash. That he was stupid enough to lose a licensed gun at the floor of the truck (which eventually broke his neck) is another story.
Regarding Kevlar armor and such: I believe German money trucks got it. Just recently there was a robbery of such a truck wich made it to big time publicity. One of the robbers was a guy working for the company and was the co-driver though. The point of it: In the newspaper one could see how the cash is being stored in such trucks: beside the robbed truck sat a rather big, metal box on the ground (I guess hardened steel plates). It had an opening at the top which I guess was previously locked.

Anthony - I'll post a picture of the details of such a gun, 'k?

<small>[ May 14, 2002, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]</small>

[vulture]

Here, they once tried to rob such a brink vehicle. They halted it and shot with AK-47 through the windshield. Then they place a semtex charge on the outside, i don't know how much. There was very little damage to the vehicle, just a big dent. Also, it was visible that the car had an outer layer which was separated of the car with approx. 2-3 inch of space.

[S. Toppholzer]

Anthony:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> It wouldn't knock him out, but it would incapacitate him. If he could locate/draw his gun he'd be firing blind. More likley than hitting you he'd hit some old lady and be up for manslaughter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">It seems <a href="http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2002-09.html" target="_blank">this one</a> was aiming true. Maybe we should re-think the mace option? :rolleyes:

[A-BOMB]

A thermic lance looks actually pretty to fabracate just a ball valve and a couple couplings one for the O2 and one to attach the lance to.
And you can pick up AL,FE and Mg rods and all the equipment to make one at a Home Depot a O2 tank and a hose in the tool area, the valve and coupling in plumping and the AL,MG or FE pipes in the metal working department. So I've found my next project..... Construct a Thermic Lance!!

[AfterRain]

A-bomb let me know how it comes along if you make one.

[S. Toppholzer]

A thermic lance actually works just perfect. I have been working a couple of times as a freelance journalist for a local newspaper. I had thus access to the "black collection" - a big collection of crime scene pictures that never made it to the newspaper pages because they were to sordid, too violent or simply gave away too much information for anyone who might be tempted to try the same thing.

I've seen many pictures of ATM's that have been opened by thermic lances on their backsides. The metal of the ATM's here seems to be amazingly thin. I guess a theric lance also works pretty fast.
I'd recommend though to practice a lot before actually trying this, to get protective gear because that shit really gets terrible hot and molten slags on a T-shirt ain't no good....
Also think of the fact that a thermic lance produces lots of gasses so any smoke detector surely will be triggered in a matter of seconds. Additionally, I'd recommend to shield the "working place" with suitable means so the extreme bright lights emitted by the lance won't be seen.

[xoo1246]

Wouldn't a metal pipe filled with hard pressed, not too fast burning thermite be a better alternative? No need for external oxygen source since you have it in the Fe2O3. I have tried thermite on hardened steel plates (3mm) an it(maybe 50 grams) burns through without any pressure applied. Or did anyone suggest this, I scanned through the post but couldn't see anything.

Has anyone thought that CuO/Al thermite with more CuO than nessesary (to consume all of the Al)should be able to eat Fe since Cu has higher elctronegativity than Fe. Maybe not enough though(1.8 compared to 1.9).

And those shiny security bags equipped with abbilities to paint the money in fancy colors. Do they also contain GPS?
And wouldn't it be smarter to attack the officers when they have opened up the van? Please educate me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[xoo1246]

Since no one seems to be able to answer, I'll propably have to try it myself.

[S. Toppholzer]

Well, I'd be somewhat scared of this device. sounds like some bomb to me. I also think the thermite filling would burn much faster than the actual tube would react/melt. Besides that I suspect the tube will become pretty hot thus you'd have to bear with a pretty high risk of injury.

[Liam C.]

xoo1246,

You might want to wander over to the patent office (online) and have a look at these two patents :

5,372,069 Pyronol torch

4,495,848 Pyro-gun (Hand-held way to use the Pyronol torch)

They seem awfully close to what you're referring to. My boy and I plan on building these this summer as a "father/son" project in our spare time.

Couple quotes from the patents...

“.....Pyronol torches produce high velocity and high pressure jets of molten metal which easily cut through the toughest steels or metal composite materials. These torches are used to cut through locks, cables, reinforcement bars, metal grills, armor plates, etc. ..... “

and from the gun...

“..... The invention is a safe shoulder mounted hand held torch or gun used to ignite a mixture of metal oxides or other equivalent pyrotechnic composition that is capable of being ignited to burn at very high temperatures.

In the past ignition of these pyrotechnic compositions that include pyronol and thermite (R) have been initiated through electrical wiring connected to a power source remotely located with relationship to the pyrotechnic composition.

In the present invention great safety is built into the operation of the gun through an independent arming switch means and circuit and a secondary manually operated fire switch means and circuit that delivers ignition current to the chamber in the gun where the pyrotechnic composition is held prior to firing.

In the arming circuit, when the manually operated arm switch is actuated a capacitor is charged for a few seconds to build up a certain predetermined charge. Upon subsequent actuation of a manual fire switch, a secondary circuit controlled by a silicon-controlled rectifier delivers ignition current previously stored in the capacitor means to an igniter chamber in the forward end of the gun. ..... “

This actually sounds less complicated than the thermic lances. I don't know for sure though because I never heard of the lances until now... *hides head in shame*

[S. Toppholzer]

Anthony - I've uploaded a pdf named GPDA9 to the forum server. It's the gun I own - the one we talked about in this discussion.

[Anthony]

Thanks, I'll go take a look at it

Wasn't there some research done by the nazy into plaster/aluminium cutting torches?

[Arkangel]

S. Toppholzer, I'm possibly visiting for a bit, and would quite like to get one of these things, could you post pics, names, the sort of places I can buy them etc etc? Ideally mail me, and I can pick your brains. (By the way, I was talking about the anti gypsy guns)

Thanks

<small>[ May 17, 2002, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</small>

[xoo1246]

Remove

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[S. Toppholzer]

Arkangel - Go to any Austrian arms dealer/weaponry/hunting shop and get one! You've only got to prove you're 18.

[nbk2000]

No amount of kevlar is going to stop an EFP or shaped charge from blowing a hole in through that van. And once you've got a hole, you can gas the occupants. Even if they had a SCBA breather, I'd doubt they have impermeable clothes. Liquid ammonia, or CX will flush them out (if it doesn't kill them first). Either way, the guards are dealt with.

When using a torch on something with paper (money) in it, you first make a small hole through which is sprayed in fire retardant foam. This prevents you from burning up all the cash. An aquaintance of mine learned this the hard way with bill changing machines.