Everyday chemicals for HE

[VasiaPupkin]

In some countries or cities its difficult to obtain some chemicals. And everyday chemicalls for HE making is useful (Liquid for whiten, battery acid etc) I posted a question to HE section in forum about making HE from syntetic washing powder (s.w.p.) two month ago. But post was deleted I dont know why http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif. Explosive from s.w.p. its not a stuff. Its possible to make nitro compounds without strong acids (and even may be without acids) and it used in special diversion forces. I know not so much about it because detailed info only in manuals for special services training (I saw only contents and first few pages - it has like anarchists cookbook structure with additional themes and with not so "humorous" contents)In Russia possession of these manuals at home can turn to big problems from FSB (new KGB name)... I learn about syntetic cleaning compounds and think its possible 2 different ways. First: May be compound directly convertered to nitro- HE by nitration or oxidation(I found chemistry of s.w.p. is a very variety: one composition contain up to 20% pentaerytrite ester and it can be convertered to pentaerytrite by simple thermal hydrolise. Other contain amine 1,2,4 triazole compound optical whitener (but only up to 2%) etc). Second way: transition and (or) catalytic activity of s.w.p. in specific reactions. It may be benzoilsulfonates, polyphosphates, various phase transition catalysts ( [R4N]+X- salts or polyglycoles) etc. I interest only of possibility explosive nitro compound making from s.w.p. Do you know anything useful?

[cutefix]

This topic is interesting,imagine making explosive from washing powder(detergent).We know that the typical basic composition of these cleaning agents contains these materials:Surfactants(ex.sodium benzenesulfonate),Builder(Polyphosphates),Bleach(s odium perborate,)filler(sodium sulfate).I could not find anything worth separating for nitration .I think you should specify what particular product you are talking about.I have not heard of washing powder containing a pentaerytritol ester or 1,2,4 triazole-one.However ,I will kept an open mind because the,chemistry of cleaning materials are also evolving...These last two materials mentioned can possibly be used for derivation of sensitive explosive PETN and insensitive explosive NTO.If you can give us a particular washing product you think is suitable for explosive conversion kindy show us its composition and well see what stuff we can possibly derive from it...If you can have the copy of that forbidden manual and translate it,and share it with us,It will be of much help in enlightening other members about the interesting developments in field expedient explosive preparation in your country.

[Microtek]

Maybe it is hydrazine nitrate; bleach and household ammonia are both chemicals that could be grouped with washing powder. Of course you need a few additional chemicals ( H2SO4 and Pb(NO3)2 or Ca(NO3)2 ) to make and isolate the hydrazine nitrate, but they are not that hard to get.

[Tony Montana]

This thread also caught my eye, and has been in my mind eversince. VasiaPupkins description conjured pictures, in my mind of some sort of pentaerythritol based powder with a H2O absorbant added. So all that was needed was HNO3, in whatever percentage. But lifes not that easy, and I have been searching the net for a while and cant find *anything* close! There seems to be no such thing as synthetic washing powder in the western world, I am with CUTEFIX:
VASIAPUPKIN, please tell what Brand Name etc, the SWP was. Especially the brand containing 20% Pentaerythritol!!!!(also do you know the name of the special services manual, you got this info from???)

[VasiaPupkin]

Hmmm. I try to explain situation. First of all I have not copy of manuals. I saw it only 1 min. from illegal seller's hands (I try to meet him now). I wanted to buy it (also non-legal re-edition) but cost was is too high. In the first pages was about physical humans killing, disguise and specific ways to do it. In contents was also big chapter about making high-tox poisons. More little chapter about making HE from every day chemicals: peroxydes, s.w.p., RDX and few some else. Big chapter about effective using HE. Name of manuals some like "Theoretical training of special forces soldiers" 1988. Really - its manualls for diversant in rear. KGB (and many more) has half-secret "Scientific development institutes" which developed shit like this and theres nothing of extraordinary. They spent much money for it. I think in USA some like is (or was) exist. But I knew some details from familiar mens. One worked in such "Development institute" other - works in FSB now. They dont meet together but info is equaly (some info I used http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif. This explosive can make only from some kinds s.w.p. or cleaning compositions. And not less than 2 additional components is used, one of them is AN. Mixture boiling some time with water, filter, then crystallise. Then they make some else. I am incline s.w.p. its only catalyst because one says "This reaction is used in industry, with higher T and great pressure, and specific acids, but we can make it at home" Power of HE is similar to RDX, but this HE used only with binder (humorous,stink, but effective composition soap + oil fuel - i tried to do it - wonderful with RDX). HE maybe not so chem. stable - he says "its non possible to identefy its trace on hands in 2 days". (If you dont know - RDX still possible to ident. on nails in a 1.5 month)... But they refused to give detailed info, says like "I dont want to be source of problems for you, preparing so easy and you certanly will make it if you can make "puss"" Puss is AP nick. On my mind this HE is EDNA. Something like crazy amination of cooling liquid (ethyleneglycole).
I have very interesting "Chemical encyclopedia" (5 big vol) with all connected with chemistry. You right common compositions is alkylbenzosulfonates, phosphates etc. But most interesting is a surfactants (alkylbenzosulfonates most useful). But chemistry of surfactants so various. I think most interesting is cationic and non-ionic: ethylenediamine, pentaerytrite etc glycole esters, RN(C2H4SO3Na)2, diacetyl imidazoles, amine or benzylamines of triazoles (no triazole-one, but NTO is not one triazole HE) 20% Pentaerytrite ester detergent is not produced in Russia now. Imagine some s.w.p. (in USSR time, now only for military) contain special developed surfactant which were also useful as antitoxin on nervous gase like VX. Its deactivates VX both on surfaces and in constitution http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif. USSR industry liked double technologies. May be similar situation. Other our guys have less info about it. If you interesting about making HE in Russia I can tell you. But our interests and problems is also similar with this forum...

[cutefix]

If you had to study the mechanism of detoxifying a nerve agent,it is by adding bleach.However in order to expose more surface( for better efficiency) you have to form fine bubbles(foam).Here you have to add a surfactant which is very hydrophilic(HLB value>20).One material that exactly fits is sodium lauryl sulfate(the same foaming agent you will find in the toothpaste and also used in LEXFOAM foamable explosive).It is combined with the bleach and a solution is made,when upon spraying on contaminated surface will form a blanket of foam-that will efficiently interact with the poisonous material and detoxify it.Therefore ,I think that the surfactant used by the Spetsnaz are identical to this.However,alone it is useless,it needs an oxidizing agent ( like hypochlorites)to do the job.
I think its not unusual about the first chapter that is related to human killing,I read in the training of spetsnaz that Russian special forces are so much trained in the art of sadistic killing,that cadets are even made to wade or even swim in the “swamp” filled with blood and chopped animal(sometimes human) parts,in order to make them hardened personality with no remorse in killing.It is also a fact that Russian demolition expert are trained to make explosives with the simplest ingredient available.Therefore their manual is a very interesting reading material and valuable source even of classified information ,that may be unknown in the West.
The cryptic procedure about that so called w.s.p. explosives aroused my curiosity.I was wondering if these people are making nitric acid from AN and used it to nitrate a suitable reactive fuel material.It is akin to the procedures in making NG or even RDX using inorganic nitrates and common battery acid.If those other ingredients have more clues ,we could possibly decipher it!
If you could give more information about Russian HE,I think it will be an interesting topic for discussion and experimentation.It will broaden our knowledge and will be the another expression of Glasnost…

[VasiaPupkin]

Yes I had to study the mechanism of detoxifying military poisons too. I can say solutions hypochlorites or organic chloroamines in pH >7 the most old and known. For VX also useful 2% solutions N,N-dichlorobenzosulfamide in solvents (when below 0 C). Universal complex. comp. for all poisons (VX, iprite etc) is weak solution of methylcellosolv, diethylenetriamine, OH- agent (NaOH) in water. And many others. Comp. you say 0.1-0.3% lauryl sulfate (not only) and oxidizer useful only for surface deactivate. This surfactant only for washing, pH>7 source and economic effect (foam have little density, best "contact effect" and stands on surface more time) That w.p. can quickly deactivate VX(not only) directly on skin (and active defend from many tox. dozes VX some time like special suit). But more interestly, when some amount of this s.w. is swallowed it reactivate "cholineesterase" and render anti-convulsion effect (compos. is non-toxic but can be stomach problems. I think to be live, but with stomach upset is better than to be dead. I find one "dipyridine-diammonium" salt which could be in this role. Calculation was is to save many civilian's, maybe soldiers lives in sudden chem. attack or diversion before special antichem. military forces come (you know Russia is big and they can to be not in time in some regions). Spetsnaz is a very common name of special military or milicia (police) forces. About "Training" He-he. Is that book was pentagon edition (below 1991 year) to frighten common americans? This is a full nonsense. Or you think russians is crazy make to swim in blood? That guy from Develop. institute (very funny man, he can easy bend the coin by two fingers and open beer's two bottles with "eyes" told, that special training (up to 7-10 years in USSR) was without many force. They learned methods of psychological influence, killing (non sadistic but quick) with minimal num. of blows or other operations (fights in films about spec. forces is a stupidity) also everydays physical and practical training. But he said its very hard training, more on psychological endurance.
And major guys is left organisation voluntary without problems. But in 1960-1970 somethimes was practice to train on experienced criminals (which was sentenced for murdering). Interestly, but they were also volunteers (named "doll") and were provided with more rights than cadets.
I asked about RDX, this guy said "RDX preparing with more agressive chemicals and more time. s.w.p. - always the best and convinient way" I think he learns no chemical process, but knows how to do it practically well. Is May be for RDX useful 70-80% vinegar? Because RDX tend to decomposition in acidic, espesially SO4 solutions http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif Decomp. inhibition - I dont believe. Battery acid need to do concentrate for esters, they couldnot to do it quickly without special labs equipment. Maybe they prepare some NO3 salt and then decompose to nitro- in some conditions... From my book I read without details some nitroamides and amines can to do it. In little strong acids presense or when heated (EDNA). Phase-transition catalysts - probably - replacing acidic groups between organic and nonorganic usually in neutral solution (SO4 esters in s.w.p. is present). Its sort of RCl + NO2- => RNO2 + Cl- reactions. Another way is some possible direct catalisation,is useful for TNP making (NaNO2, Hg+ salts - from benzene), but I never heard about using for nitroamines. Last way - oxidizing amines by peroxydes, or hypoclorites... One idea (i think its small and wouldnot to do topic) who know is it possible (second reaction)?: Cl3CH + CH2O => Cl3CHCH2OH then + 3NaNO2 => (O2N)3CHCH2OH in solvent (like gasoline/water)with the [R4N]+Cl- presence or "sterical"(i dont know english word) difficulties may occur. Then usual way to do BTEM... Making and using HE in Russia and USA in industry is similar. All new directions is confidence (Info is non available for me but must be similar also). I heard something but think its not really.

...We all very shocks with horrific terroristic actions in New York and Washington...

[cutefix]

I think, I read that book during the time of Yeltsin.It was claimed to be written by an ex-Spetsnatz officer.( I cannot remember his name,).That book was fascinating to read and well written with graphic explanation of the difficult training in that special force regiment.That paragraph related to the gory details in psychological hardening of the combatants intrigued me most and it was(for me) the most unforgettable part of that book.If its psychological training,it is a possibility that it really did happen.Most people feel uneasy at the sight of blood and gore,soldiers included.So,in order to enhanced soldiers preparedness in casualties scenario,and not lose its morale, it can be an effective experience to be in contact with that "bloody swamp"as well as harden their character to the bloodiness of real combat..I agree that these trained people are skilled martial artist and can kill or demobilize any opponent.
RDX is stable in acidic condition.,if not it would not form in a highly acidic environment of acetic anhydride,acetic acid,nitric acid,ammonium nitrate .During the early years of RDX development,some inventors really did try to use mixed acidH2SO4/HNO3 in order to prepare it,but the results were lower yield than direct nitration with HNO3.There are even alternative ways of making it from nitrourea(check HE section of the forum)and propionitrile,using sulfuric acid.Battery acid in order to be useful can be boiled in an acid resistant container until fumes appear,then it can be useful for nitration.It is right that concentrated chemicals are needed in its preparation. RDX can be prepared in the field by a determined person with very minimal knowledge in chemistry as long as he is resourceful or trained by an experienced explosive expert.Preparing it with 70-80 percent acetic acid is not possible,I think You will need an anhydrous condition in the acetic anhydride/ammonium nitrate/paraformaldehyde. RDX process..
We can form a nitramine explosive (Ethylenediaminedinitrate)by reacting ethylene diamine with of ammonium nitrate :
2NH4NO3 + C2H8N2 ----à C2H10N4O6 +2NH3
Now are there any ethylenediamine material added in russian cleaning agents,it can be another possibility if it can be separated before making an improvised explosive composition..

Yeah, America is in difficult times,anyway every country had to experience crisis in order to evolve..as a better nation..

[VasiaPupkin]

You know after this terrible terroristic actions its not so difficult to believe about swimming in blood. Hmm. About RDX: yea its stable in conc. HNO3 enough but... conc. acid and acidic solutions is no equivalent conception (RDX preparing not news for me, I made it from HNO3, slurry AC acid and P2O5 or from stabilized HNO3, and RDX not so interest for me- i could not to waste HNO3 much). I try to explain (if you dont think its a unnecessary info http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif: For example: conc. HNO3 it not one HNO3 matter,generally its a balanced "autoprotonic" system: 2HNO3 = [H2NO3]+ + NO3- = NO2+(nitronium cation - only useful for common nucleofillic nitration) + NO3- + H2O. When share of H2O is raise, conc. of NO2+ is quickly reduse, and HNO3 middle and weak conc. its only H+ + NO3- (thats why we always use conc. HNO3. And the most soft and at the same time most active nitration agents is solid nitronium salts)(If you want i can also explain AC2O, H2SO4, pyridine etc roles in nitrations - its not also H2O absorbents or solvents) When H+ conc. is rise speed of RDX (not only, depend on chem. resistanse) decomp. is also rise. Not so conc. H2SO4 SOLUTIONS is also catalyst of RDX hydrolisation on scheme: (CH2NNO2)3 + 1.5H2SO4 + 6H2O => 3CH2O + 1.5(NH4)2SO4 + 3HNO3... I think ethylenediamine couldnot recive both NO3- from AN. Its not so active as NH3. But it will be in acidic solutions. Ethylenediamine surfactants compounds is present in a some soap an s.w.p. compositions (not only Russians) but I dont know comp. with considerable conc. (I can obtain some kg of (HOOCCH2)2NC2H4N(CH2COOH)2 - is it may be useful? I am not sure) Another problems: From 1991-1993 in Russia market economic and 80% composition (not only s.w.p.) is a like "ariel", "tide" shit... Vaporising of H2SO4 is a well-known method. Somethimes its useful for nitroesters/aromatic making... And some idea about it:
We didnot speak about state this s.w.p. HE. Maybe its really liquid. We all knows about NG + 8% colloxiline and dynamite plastic mixture. Also we knows some liquid esters can to dissolve in organic solvents, which do mixture considerable resistant to shock and friction. Imagine - they make some like EGDN with crazy w.p. method (simple KNO3/H2SO4 nitration is also possible). Then we add mixture oil fuel + cheap soap ("denser" and have a weak OH- also good for chem. stabilisation) and get safe gelatine-dynamite without wasting time for crushing and other operations. Its must be with more Pb block expansion than C-4 like plastic but some less brisance. We can to modificate it. It may be used with AN and (or) aluminium. But need neutral polymer "denser" like polymethylmetacrilate or PS... But this is not ineresting.

[cutefix]

Its really a challenge to solve your wsp explosive.
Going back to the previous explanation of this explosive:
Qoute:
This explosive can make only from some kinds s.w.p. or cleaning compositions. And not less than 2 additional components is used, one of them is AN. Mixture boiling some time with water, filter, then crystallise. Then they make some else. I am incline s.w.p. its only catalyst because one says "This reaction is used in industry, with higher T and great pressure, and specific acids, but we can make it at home" Power of HE is similar to RDX, but this HE used only with binder HE maybe not so chem. stable - he says "its non possible to identefy its trace on hands in 2 days". (If you dont know - RDX still possible to ident. on nails in a 1.5 month)... But they refused to give detailed info, says like "I dont want to be source of problems for you, It is not RDX but an explosive of similar power.
This guy who said it is not telling you the truth.and is deceiving you.He withheld so many useful clues from you and adding useless ones for confusion.
I can think only a 2 component explosive that have the same power as RDX , (VOD 8500-8600m/s) was astroliteG,and there is nothing else.So there is some truth to Mikrotek statement(hydrazine nitrate).
What he did,was first to synthesize hydrazine from two selected cleaning materials namely bleach and ammonia.(check this: http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000098.html ,then extract hydrazine hydrate which is refined by careful distillation(this is what he mean maybe by heating).Finally,when hydrazine was ready, he mixed it with ammonium nitrate and formed the powerful liquid explosive that is not stable,and will not leave a trace upon explosion..This astrolite is easy to make and a closely guarded technique by even some army explosive specialists.But you do not need soap to make it.
What do you think?

[VasiaPupkin]

No that guy is not incline to lie, he simply dont tell about all. I know him enough. And i am not so naiv. I spoke with both guys (they dont meet together) and info about s.w.p. is similar. literally I directly asked him -"Is it RDX?" And he answered -"No, but it some like". I think Maybe its not so powerful as RDX, but exactly more than tetryl... Processes of partial oxidizing NH3 or (NH2)2CO by hypochlorites (liquid "chlorine" bleach or tech. Ca(OCl)2 may be) is useful in industry but not at home. Preparing of w.s.p. HE is non dangerous. I am fine knows what is astrolite (hydrazine) means. And how toxic (even cancerous) it may be. Is has easy skin adsorbtion and 1-2 mg/L complex lethal concentration etc. By the means i can simply obtain up to few litres of pure hydrazine hydrate for 4USD/L equivalence cost. But i dont like to deal with hydrazine... Another remark: VoD of RDX 8500-8600 is possible only in near crystall density of RDX which is possible only for special press machines (on common industry presses its dangerous). RDX and HMX have one of the most resistance to press than other common explosives. Interesting, but my friend tried carefully to press RDX with "äîìêðàò" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif (you use this thing for care raise when changing auto tire) he could not to detonate it. I didnot hear about RDX overpressing before. Is it really possible?
Another shit: ...Reading the books I have found some interesting facts, specific properties and reactions with... alkylbenzosulfonates (dont confuse with alkylbenzosulfates). In minimum its acids etherification and nitration catalysts but there some more interesting. Now I try to build possible preparing way (its really must be with s.w.p. boiling and crystallizing). I try to do it practically and read more info. I dont like to expose my idea now. Maybe some later http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

[cutefix]

So hydrazine is easily available in Russia,
Well , I have used hydrazine and I was not poisoned.All those fears that it is very toxic is an exaggeration,to people who have never handled it.I suggest that you exercise extreme care in its handling..Another thing is, a binary explosive made with this material had excellent performance(specially if you use the anhydrous N2H4) as long as you just use the right blasting cap.As I stated in my previous post somewhere in this forum, its powerful explosion does not leave any trace,unlike nitramine explosives(RDX/RDX/EDNA etc.).So I was thinking this was the likely material your friend is insinuating about.
Regarding RDX ,I know a former technician -colleague who were able to measure VOD of this material at 8600 m/s.These cyclic nitramine explosives had some tendency to be dead pressed.That is why in some Plastic Bonded explosives (PBX)preparation the use different grades of the base explosive according to particle size.(mixture of both fine and coarse RDX or HMX is emphasized to prevent this deadpressing) .With heterogenous granualation the resulting pressed material if looked in the microscope will show uneveness and presence of microscopic voids that imparts enough sensitivity of the finished explosive to initiation for detonation.Oh,by the way your friend is using an automobile jack as a press.I was wondering if he did use a booster(like PETN or tetryl) in his trial with his pressed explosive ;maybe he just plainly used a primary explosive.Sometimes,dead pressed explosive can be initiated with a stronger booster…

Vasia,if this wsp explosive is really true,.it will be an interesting material to study & simulate if the right materials used in it is properly identified.…

[VasiaPupkin]

Hmm. Maybe you right. Possible I will try with hydrazine later. But in laboratory instruction I read if hydrazine or hydrazine/water is get on skin. Need to wash it with acidic water immediately. What do you think about N2H4.HNO3 (1.68 g/cc) using with another explosive, i think it will be interesting. Our guys says its possible use Na2O or CaO for water adsorbent from hydrazinehydrate. They says these matters non soluble in hydrazine... Dont think hydrazine so available. Its only for "who knows where to find" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif And today source may be, but tommorow it can be closed by milicia. (On that time it was twice) Selection of goods also non constant... Official fuckin shops dont sell anyting some interesting... EDNA dont leave chem. trace. This explosive would be more useful than tetryl but for its bad chem. stability. In addition it has even a bit less sensitivity, comparable det. sensitivity and better power. However its decomposes in neutral or acidic conditions on HOCH2CH2OH, CH3CHO, N2O,decomp. speed depend on conc. and temp. Soluble in hot water (1.25g/100g-50 C, 4.95g/100g-75 C) All traces quickly decomposes directly on skin. Very stable in a slightly OH- conditions. When wet it has decomp.(autocatalitic) disintegration above 50 C. It formes sensitive salts with alkalines and metals like TNP (good choise - dont need to make HMTD or AP http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif But its all the same useful in non-metal detonators (tetryl substitute), in various melting mixtures with TNT for shells, also in powders and propellants... My friend used only 1.5g HMTD booster maybe its realIy weak for deadpressed RDX. By the means: in a last times we trying to use homemade cumulative boosters (like militaries detonators) with less mass and size (length) than ordinary. Also we have developed 2 main ways for making continious metal or metal/non organic conus with simpliest gadgets. First test says good. When I will obtain good HE enough I will trying with cumulative charges.

[cutefix]

Hydrazine nitrate is an interesting material and its also a good oxidant and produces powerful explosives with mixtures with other materials(I think it was mentioned in HE section in this forum under hydrazine sulfate).This material I think, is more safer to test than tetranitromethane in explosive mixtures and it offer vast potentials,but storage stability might be a problem.
The recommended method of extracting anhydrous hydrazine was an alkali like pure KOH, and maybe NaOH also,then distilling it under nitrogen atmosphere.I think using CaO and Na2O is a possibility.
I was thinking previously that your wsp is either MEDINA(methylenedinitramine) or EDNA( ethylenedinitramine).Knowing that these materials are not very stable,and difficult to prepare than RDX I dropped it from the list.But these two nitramines are powerful explosives,and would be very interesting if there are easier ways to synthesize it from common materials safely and in good yields.Is there any development in Russia regarding these materials?
A well pressed RDX is similar to C-4,or any PBX it will not detonate reliably with just a strong initiating explosive like AP or HMTD, it needs a booster(like PETN or RDX itself) for optimum results.
Its nice to know that you are experimenting with cumulative charge(shaped charge).Did you have any experience about using tungsten as part of the liner or added in fine particles to the explosive composition for shape charges?It was said to improve greatly the penetrating ability of the explosive jet (much better than copper).

[VasiaPupkin]

I never heard about practical using MEDINA - very chem. unstable. But EDNA is useful. Its sufficiently chem. stable when well purifyed from acid and keeped at room temperature and extremely stable with very little alkaline agent addition (i think carbonate maybe). I am interesting only yeild and chemicals available in HE, difficult way (for reasonable limit http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif- is not obstacle for me. About EDNA not much good info sources available in Russia. I think its fishy http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif In Russia more close themes about military technology in USA. Even in well-known aspekts than , hmmm I think it close not from spy but from common peoples... like me http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Our goverment in all history times always has some prejudices from own civilians. Usually they think like "Oh, if they will have info, they can to do something" He-he maybe they some right. I know only non detailed info about industrial making: EDNA makes with good yeild by nitration acetyl- or formyl- ethylenediamine compounds. Somethimes by ethyleneurea nitration...
I even never heard about such using of tungsten. I have only one book about rocket warehead design and theres only well-known facts about shaped charges - forms, preferable materials and sizes(this book is common high school textbook). But I learned about nature of cumulative effect. And think this things maybe very effective. I think if you make tungsten alloy top of conus inside it will be effective (conus from copper itself)- cumulative jet will have a more strong top (However all materials very specific in high speed/pressure/heat conditions. And very difficult to maintain. Need practic work). Using fine heavy metal powder may lead to jet's impulse rising (and kinetic energy) but then may be not need for metal surface using - what do you think? On exhibition I saw newest shell for "bazooka" - zink alloy conus was here without any visible things like tungsten (HE was emulated). But there was interesting construction with secondary thin "external surfase" outward charge - I think its some kind of active armour (you can see this "explosive" armor sometimes on tanks). Its probably more effective than to make massive cover for cumulative effect rising.

[cutefix]

I know of a particular synthesis of EDNA.It requires ethylenediformamide,acetic anhydride,and nitric acid..The nitration product is ethylenenitroformamide,which upon hydrolysis in presence of acid will form EDNA(ethylenedinitramine).But the base material is not as well known as hexamine for RDX/HMX preparation.Therefore difficult to procure. There was somediscussion somewhere in this forum about this ethyleneurea,I think it is a simpler way than making from alkylformamides,because ethylene and urea are more common.Do you have a detailed procedure for this?I think the castable explosive you are talking is EDNATOL(EDNA/TNT).I am not familiar about its performance compared with hexatol(RDX/TNT).

This heavy metal was reputedly used for shaped charges in oil drilling,I talked to a guy involved in this matter,and he brought about this idea.Normally the performance of the shaped charge is proportional to the diameter .Now if they want best performance in this industry,the want this cumulative charge to create deeper hole withou enlarging its entry diameter.That is not possible with normal cumulative charge with light metal like copper(or similar alloys).Tungsten which is heavy and brittle will create upon explosion the same fluid,fine metal particles but with more kinetic energy;(due to its higher density)resulting in more penetration than normally attained.It is plausible,but this metal is rather difficult to machine into cones(which add cost).However if finely divided metal precipitated from a suitable tungsten salt is pressed into coneshape(with a suitable binder -if needed) or added to the explosive casting (using still the copper cone),it will enhance explosive jet penetration.The VOD of the cast explosive may be slightly affected but it will more than be compensated by the efficiency of heavy tungsten in the penetration process.This is a really and interesting technology.I have no idea if this technique was applied in anti-armor warheads by the military.
I think that new bazooka warhead is similar to the later wire guided missiles tandem charges;that is two consecutive exposive charge.The first charge when it hit the tank will detonate the reactive armor,then the second will be do the shaped charge effect penetrating the armor and create internal damage and casualty.

[VasiaPupkin]

Yea. HOCH2CH2OH and urea more common. I tried the first stage - making ethyleneurea. But its long and smelly. And I'm fed up with it http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I can buy formamide or dimethylformamide (2.5-3USD/L equivalence), but no ethylenediamine. Now I'm consulting with more advanced guy than me about EDNA chemistry...
hexatol naturally is some more powerful and less carefull then ednatol...
In shape effect one problems. - In that conditions need material with definite plasticity. I read zink and copper alloys is most suitable, other metalls like all kinds of steel, Al etc less effective. Because metal conus deformation its only stream of high strained metal (like liqid. But its non liqud state) I dont think that whole thungsteen conus is more effective. And you right- technology will be not common - thungsteen is frail and has high m.p. I think only powder "baking" the most probable. But... dont forget - strength of common materials is comparable in that extreme conditions. Penetrate deep is nearly 4D size for common shape charges (common explosives like TG50 (rdx/tnt) or octol).
No, new bazooka second and first charges exploded almost simultaneously. And construction is very different than I saw. I think Its used for lock effect of gases from second charge. And more gases from first charge will make useful work.

[cutefix]

EDNA chemistry is interesting and any new information from specialist of this material would be appreciated,hoping that knowledge will simplify its preparation.For the time being ,RDX I think is the strongest solid explosive that can easily be made aside from PETN.Do you think that tetranitroglycoluril be a viable replacement for home synthesis?
Modern shaped charges are able to penetrate about 7 times the cone diameter and that was due to the exotic metal alloys being used as cones,coupled with more powerful explosives.Therefore I believe that developers in this line have used the unorthodox principle of using brittle,heavy metals(like tungsten) or improvement in liner casing with advanced metal alloys(then ejected as a fine,fluid,metal particle jet by HMX type PBX.The cast explosive Octol(75%HMX/25%TNT)and is less powerful and sensitive compared to newer PBX- (94%HMX/3%NC/3%energetic binder) . The one using CL-20 which is more faster and more penetrating than the HMX explosives.
I would say that those double explosive charges(tandem charge) will appear to detonate simultaneously(but in reality there occors microsecond delay between the explosion.).If not, why just unite the charges so that the blasteffect will be more impressive.Anti-armor warfare does not follow this line of thought.This technique was developed in order to defeat reactive armor,which is common defence against ordinary anti-tank(HEAT)projectile.I heard in some circles that Russia is having in its anti tank arsenal a triplecharge projectile(three consecutive explosive charges) for highly efficient penetration against the western tank composite armor.

[Hex]

US Pat 2400288 has some stuff on nitrating ethylene urea. Do you think it might be possible to make dinitroethylene urea from the disodium salt of dinitrourea and 1,2-dichloroethane? Or would it be simpler to make ethylene diamine from 1,2-DCE and ammonia, acetylate/formylate that and nitrate it? 1,2-DCE isn't very common in the UK anymore, I don't know about abroad. At one time I think it was used in dry cleaning. Formamide is watched very closely in the UK (MDMA precursor)

[This message has been edited by Hex (edited September 20, 2001).]

[VasiaPupkin]

Yea. That advanced guy is Mav (EDNA poster). Now I learn more detailed info about EDNA chemistry - laboratory instructions, but its no so easy for me to translate from czech language.
I think TNGU is not interesting for home conditions. Hmmm I dont know much about modern shaped constructions. And what maked by russian developers - its usually secret info (He-he. I see only for russians http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Octol (common name for HMX/RDX castable mixtures) is used for common military LAW "fly" - but it non modern weapon. I saw newest systems - its shells has very interesting forms.
Do you know about active armour? On russian tanks Its not large 2 steel plate with special plastic HE "PVV5" between (cell). This small things stands with small distanse from tank's body. (May be you saw it from TV) Its very effective for common shape jet neutralization in good time. But it is sometimes useless for modern charges.
to Hex: I think this reactions is possible (naturally if you simply can make this salt without decomposition http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif, but DNU is more useful for other ways explosive making. I think you really can try to make more interesting. Its almost strategic material. I heard about some interesting sufficiently insensitive but powerful (between HMX and HNIW)and more cheap compounds from DNU with new chem. principe of explosive (its not only nitro- http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif... Excuse me I could not to tell you more. Its secret, not mine... By the way I recomend to see in P.E.P. journal v24pp366-370. I found it interesting.
Yea. I can buy 1,2- Dichloroetane (2.5USD/bottle - 1 kg) over my friend. But I dont know convinient way to make ethylenediamine. I tried it (see EDNA post) but its long time. If you know this way, please tell me. I have 300 ml 1,2DCE now.
You may believe may not, but its true: I twice prepared one compound. But I didnt understand what its maybe. It was when I knew chemistry not good and had many free time. I was trying to make RDX from hexamine and NH4NO3 in water solutions http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif With addition of various catalyst and reagents. It was like "searching a needle in a hay stack" However in a 20-30 time I receved considerable portion of 2-4 mm milky-white crystalls. This crystalls was insoluble in water and acetone and keeped without changes minimum 10 days, but quickly decomp. with boiling water with CH2O smell. When heated its flashed like HMTD without melting. I repeat it second time. I write down all operations. But later I could not to prepare it more http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif I dont know why. May be something like chance. Solution was special prepared mixture HMTA and NH4NO3 (boil for CH2O smell) then cooling + some weak H3PO4 (light acidic cond.) then Cu2+, Cr3+ and Co2+ -weak voilet color. In a 30-40 min suddenly green with precipitate beginning. In a three hours crystalls decomposes. Is it may be dinitropentamethyletetramine?

[cutefix]

The reactive armor(maybe similar to your active armor) is an explosive “sandwich”in which two metal plates have filling of plastic explosive.This technique was reported to be invented by the Israeli,and was copied by the Russians after the Arab-Israeli war in the 1970’s.It was the most effective way to defeat the first generation HEAT (high-explosive anti-tank from Bazooka or RPG-7)) round ,by disrupting the explosive jet formed by the projectile’s detonation,there by minimizing if not eliminating the penetration process.However this explosive shield have disadvantages;1) Accompanying troops must avoid tanks fitted with this device or they will become casualties when this external charges are set off.2)It is not very effective against the sabot round(Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot Fin stabilized AmmunitionAPDSFS.).
Later generation anti-tank ammo used tandem charges in order to defeat this type of active armor.

[Mad Dog]

Mr VasiaPupkin there are some people who are very interested in getting there hands on that manual and will pay good money for it. I have relatives who live in Moscow through whom I can organise the whole thing. I will need the original but you can photocopy it hey a photocopy is better than nothing. If you are interested e-male me at ozpyro2001@yahoo.com

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If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?

[Hex]

Vasia,
I think you may mean using DNU to make keto-rdx?? It's certainly a possibility, although I think initial reports that it is 3%more powerful than HMX have been found to be optimistic...
Regarding your mystery compound, I don't think it could have been dinitro pentamethylenetetramine (DPT). DPT is soluble up to ph5 or so, and is quite stable in acid solutions. I don't see how an N-nitrogroup could have resulted from these conditions. Perhaps what you made was hexamine dinitrate? It is not particularly soluble in water, totally insoluble in acetone and decomposes in boiling water with formaldehyde being one of the decomposition products.

ps Is there anywhere you could get and translate Russian Patent SU639868 by VP Ivshin (nitramine master!!) and TV Sakhno?
I have it on order but will probably have to wait months to get it.

[This message has been edited by Hex (edited September 27, 2001).]

[Mr Cool]

Hex - I think you mentioned that formamide was hard to come buy... why not substitute CHOOH for CH3COOH in this reaction?

Synthesis of Acetamide from Acetic Acid and Urea:

Urea is conveniently obtained as a constituent of many fertilizers and so it is easily obtained. Sources have indicated that a 50lb
bag can be purchased for $15 in the US. It is of less than ideal purity from this source, so some washing will be in order (with
what?). Glacial Acetic Acid is easily obtained from photographic supply stores in high purity and for cheap as well. This
reaction produces Acetamide with such purity that the product does not even need to be recrystallized (the reaction goes to
completion with no side products). The reaction is:

CH3COOH + NH2CONH2 ----> CH3CONH2 + CO2 + 2NH3

Place 125g Urea and 125g of Acetic Acid in a 500mL round bottom flask in preparation for simple refluxing with magnetic
stirring and without cooling water (or use cooling water heated to about 80C). Attach condenser, claisen adapter and place
thermometer so that the bulb is around 1cm from the bottom, fully immersed. Heat on the mantle gently to bring the temperature
of the mixture to 150C in 20 minutes. The mixture should be refluxing in the condenser, and probably subliming in it as well
unless heated "cooling" water is used. Push any crystals back down as necessary. Hold at reflux until the temperature rises to
195-200C (approximately 1.5 hours) Allow to cool, then rearrange the condenser for distilling (its really preferable to use 80C
water in the condenser). Heat to collect nearly pure Acetamide starting at 200C with most coming over from 214-216C. If the
product smells strongly of mice (as in the rodents), then recrystallization from warm methanol is in order. To recrystallize, take
50g of Acetamide, dissolve in 40mL warm Methanol, add 100mL Ether to crash it out and allow to stand. If no crystals have
formed after an hour or so, gently scratch the inside of the beaker with a glass rod. If your product is only faintly odorous and is
colourless to white, then it is considered pure. Melting point is 80.5C.

Or mess around with this one a bit:

Synthesis of Acetamide from Ethyl Acetate and Ammonia

Ethyl Acetate is allowed to mix with concentrated Ammonia solution for several days to make Acetamide. This is a very
attractive method because all the reagents involved are easy to acquire and cheap.

a) Preparation of Ethyl Acetate from Ethanol and glacial Acetic Acid

Dehydrate at least 100mL of grain alcohol to yield absolute Ethanol. 74mL (58g) will be required. Add this quantity of Ethanol
to a round bottom flask with 225g glacial Acetic Acid and 3g of concentrated Sulfuric Acid. Heat at reflux on an electric
heating mantle for 12 hours then attach a Vigreaux or Hempel fractionating column to distill off the crude ester at 76-77C.
Change receiver flasks and recover the excess of Acetic Acid, bp 118C. Wash the first receiver contents with a half volume of
saturated Sodium Bicarbonate solution then add 50g of anhydrous Sodium Sulfate (the salt of Sulfuric Acid and Sodium
Hydroxide, dried in an oven at >100C for several hours) and distill the pure dry ester once again. Yield should be greater than
70g.

b) Reaction of Ethyl Acetate and Ammonia to make Acetamide

Add 44g of Ethyl Acetate and 90mL of concentrated Ammonia solution (~28%) to a 500mL round bottom flask with a stirrer
magnet. Plug the neck with a thermometer in a thermometer adapter and stir gently for 48 hours or until the mixture becomes
homogenous (stop the stirrer occasionally to check). Attach standard distillation apparatus but leave off the receiver flask at
first, connecting a short piece of rubber tubing to the receiver adapter which is submerged in a beaker of dilute HCl (10-20%).
Heat gently on a mantle to drive off the excess ammonia into the beaker. When no more bubbles come over then attach the
receiver flask and commence distilling acetamide from 170C up, rapidly. Run 80C water though the condenser to prevent
clogging. Once distillation slows to a crawl, remove the receiver flask and set aside in a hot water bath (80-90C). Clean up the
glassware used for the distillation then use the receiver flask as the distilling flask and a glass container with screw-lid top as a
receiver. Run 80C water through the condenser as before, and redistill the Acetamide, which should come over completely at
216C using the heating mantle. Yield should be greater than 24g.

Also, if you want Ethylenediamine, could you react 1,2-dihaloethane (chloride, bromide, whatever) with NaNO2/AgNO2/whatever works to get 1,2-dinitroethane, and then reduce this using Fe/HCl, in similar method to this one using nitromethane:

Assemble a 500mL RB flask with claisen adapter, thermometer down the center to read the liquid temperature, and reflux
condenser with a cork and tube leading to a beaker of 1M Hydrochloric acid. Drop a stirrer magnet in, then add 105g of 40
Mesh Iron filings, 225mL of water and 1g of Ferric Chloride. Next, add 35mL of concentrated Hydrochloric Acid ("muriatic
acid" is ok). When the bubbling ceases, add 31g of Nitromethane.

Heat the reaction mixture to 100C and hold for 14 hours. A temperature regulator is necessary if using a heating mantle, else
use a large boiling water bath (if you will be doing it overnight, so it doesn't run out).

At the end of this time, allow to cool then add enough 25% Sodium Hydroxide solution to to get the pH above 11. Heat on a
water bath or with gentle electric heat to drive the Methylamine off as a gas into the same beaker of Hydrochloric acid used as
a trap during the reaction.

Evaporate the beaker contents to dryness on a glass plate in the oven to collect the crystals of Methylamine HCl
(hygroscopic!). The yield should be approximately 15g (95%).

Hope some of this is useful to someone.

[Hex]

Cheers..
Interesting ideas. Trouble is, the first species in a series often has anamolous properties, so some of these reactions might not work using the formic equivalents, but I'm sure at least one of them would work. Probably a look round some amphetamine sites would give some tried and tested formamide synths.

[Mr Cool]

Yes, I got that info from a drug-orientated site on a page dealing with mainly methylamine for the production of amphetamines; some of those drug makers are quite good chemists, even if they are a little stupid at times (I read one guy's account of how he made cyanogen bromide, without a fume hood! Stupid...)

[VasiaPupkin]

To cutefix: I see reactive and active armor is the same.
To Mr Mad Dog http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif : Didnot know that CIA is a family buisness. But if seriously most interesting knowledge not in the book. It is only in the oral instructions in special lectures and in practic work is really interesting. Hey! I think you are working on the west press (most probably). The west press always "hungry" for all new. I think its a good money to publish books like it on the West or saying that Russia could not to keep dangerous secrets http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif And seeing then something like fuckin reportages in west TV programs (in the past) stuff like "heroic struggle of Chechenian peoples aganist Russians occupations". Hmm! After terroristic actions in USA they have abrupt opposite position... Its no interesting for special services, because they must know it all long ago. From another viewpoint it may be FSB's provocation. A? Or its a simple joke - not so funny. I dont like all this. Please dont ask me to do it later. Ok?
To Hex: I dont like to talk about this case. Because its no correspond to sanity and i could not to prove my words. Hexamine dinitrate is less chem. stable transparent plates and cryslallise always immediately. My crystals is rhombic and triangle. Burns like HMTD but not so intensively. Dont soluble in cold and warm water. Quickly decomposes in boiling water. (Very like on dinitrosopentamethylenetramine but milky white color. And no nitroso- and peroxo- compounds in mixture) Keto, diketo etc RDX/HMX are interesting but i have info only from forum and US patents bureau.
I don't now "nitramine master". I can translate all rus. texts may be not literally (I think my english not so good) but you will can understand all. You can send it on (crv@hotbox.ru)
By the way thanks to Mr Cool. I didnot know about preparing acetamide from urea. Is 70% Acid possible, or only slurry A.A.? Is urea salt of CH3COOH stable?

[VasiaPupkin]

I heard about SWP HE 5 years ago but i had asked for my question myself only few days ago http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Please if you will know yourself about this SWP HE dont say to anybody. Its really terrible info for lamers, light-minded peoples, criminals etc. I wrote this post only to say: Chemistry is a very interesting science and its manifistations may be unexpectly wonderful.


[This message has been edited by VasiaPupkin (edited October 08, 2001).]

[CodeMason]

I am thinking in my head that this is not some fantastic DNU derivative that can be made from some mythical washing powder containing industrial solvents like pentaerthyritol, I am thinking that this may be the old 3NaOCl + KCl -> KClO3 + 3NaCl reaction, forming nothing more than boring ol' potassium chlorate. Am I close? (No offense Vasia, but your broken english is hard to follow at times!)

[cutefix]

Hello Vasia,
I'm sorry that I cannot agree to your logic about secret information in these age of information technology.
In this era of the internet,your thoughts about secret explosive knowledge is obsolete.That is similar to what all armed forces demolition experts think that,for safety and security reasons, practical explosive knowledge should be treated as confidential information.That is reasonable , anyway .However,look,what is happening now, you can learn a lot of these hidden stuff if you know the place where to find it in the web or in selected printed literature.
So if you talk about interesting information,but you cannot show any proof to anybody,then- its either it does not exist,or if it really exist its not worth sharing because its already known(but wrongly interpreted) and it might cause embarrassment on your side, because of creating much noise for a trivial piece of information.
Therefore I conclude ,that the SWP "explosive" of yours will very interesting, if it is really true,but not worth to talk about if its just a figment of your own imagination.

[VasiaPupkin]

Yeah. My english not perfect. Very difficult to speaking without good practice http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif. Ok. I try to do it with my school textbook http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Chlorates (perclorates) with RDX power and some better brisance?! - nonsence. DNU derrivates is too complicated for home preparing. Still some not so clear.
To cutefix: I am very hope that common guys will continue to think as you. To belive or not - is you right http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Almost I always says where idea, and where not.

[This message has been edited by VasiaPupkin (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Mr Cool]

Vasia: In your first post in this thread you asked if anyone knew anything useful about these explosives, but now that you know something useful you're not prepared to share it with us, even though this whole place is designed to make this sort of knowledge freely available. Could you at least give us a clue?

I read something, probably here, about amines being oxidised with KMnO4 (and possibly other things to catalise the reaction) to form nitro- compounds. Does anyone have any info on what sort of amines can be used in this reaction, or any more specifics?

[tvs17]

Mr Cool,
Tertiary amines have been oxidized to the corresponding nitro compounds with KMnO4. For example, 2-methyl-2-nitropropane is prepared in 84% yield from t-butylamine with KMnO4[117]. In a similiar fashion, 1-aminoadamantane has been oxidized to 1-nitroadamantane in 85% yield with KMnO4[118].

117. Org. Synth. Coll. Vol. 6, 803(1988)
118. Stetter, H., and E. Smulders, Chem. Ber., 104, 917(1971)

Not very useful, but intesting though!

[cutefix]

Whatever Vasia have in mind ,I think its better to leave him alone to indulge in his childish games….We should not spoil his fun.Maybe it his only way of getting even to the Forum for deleting this SWP post in the HE section earlier.Anyway we have done our share in allowing him to open up and discuss his ideas.If you will see the resulting series of posts, it was an informative discussion,and the time was not spent in vain.In addition we have helped him somehow practice his English.

Mr.Cool that amine being converted to nitrate by KMnO4 was tetraaminoadamantane tetrahydrochloride;It is mentioned in the HE section under HNIW. I saw it in the tetranitrodamantane method of preparation found in US Patent# 4,329,522.
Check it out for more information.
Preparation of 1,3,5,7-Tetranitroadamantane

1,3,5,7-Tetraaminoadamantane tetrahydrochloride (5.2 g=0.015 mole) was dissolved in 200 ml of water, and converted to the free base by addition of an equivalent amount of aqueous sodium hydroxide. Magnesium sulfate (10.5 g=0.087 mole) was added to the agitated mixture at 30.degree. C. The mixture was then diluted with 150 ml of acetone and potassium permanganate (57.0 g=0.35 mole) was added portionwise with agitation during 30 minutes. The reaction mixture was agitated at 30.degree. C. for 48 hours and then filtered. The filter cake was washed with water, then dried and extracted eight times with boiling toluene (total amount 400 ml). The combined extracts were filtered, concentrated to a volume of approximately 75 ml and allowed to stand for three days at room temperature. The crystallized solids thus obtained were separated by filtration and dried, yielding 1.27 g of product in the form of truncated square pyramidal crystals, mp>360.degree. C. (dec.). The filtrate yielded an additional 0.87 g of product for a total yield of 2.14 g, 45% of theory. For analysis, a sample of the product was dissolved in acetone and precipitated from solution by the addition of water. The dry product had the following properties: mp 361.degree.-363.degree. C The product is 1,3,5,7-tetranitroadamantane.


[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited October 07, 2001).]

[a_bab]

Hm, maybe it's an stupid proposition, but I saw somewhere a recipe for NG making from soap with glycerine, using AN instead of nitric acid. The soap could be used as a plasticisier. What do you think ? It might work (soap doesn't react with acids, and the 'glycerinated soap' could contain quite enough glycerine)

------------------
Damn, I got a nitro-headache again...

http://move.to/pyromania

[CodeMason]

a_bab, soap does react with acids, it's a base. The whole point of the soap is obtaining glycerine, it is just glycerine with a long carbon chain attached to it.

[VasiaPupkin]

No one my words about SWP HE later...
I recommend to read a book "Chemistry of nitro- and nitroso groups" to know what is possible, and what is not. I had its english-russian edition 1972 vol 1,2 from library. Autor Foyer H (names may look like some similar on english original book).
Some nitro compounds is possible to make with oxidation of amines (or nitroso) groups, diazo-salts decomposition (for example Z(S)andmeyer reaction). It possible with many amines with solid ties (for prevent harmful reactions). Amino adamantanes and amino (nitroso-, diaza-, oxyme-, HOHN-) aromatic compounds - good example. It may be very perspective to make somthing useful, but with concerning small quantities. For example, some triazole compounds may be useful for oxydation: US pat 3,054,800, 3,111,524 - I found this preparing interesting. (and 4,623,409 its not oxinitration, but preparing with KMnO4 to make azole group)you also can find interesting.
Hmmm. Why to use soap (or fat) for glycerine making if glycerine available enough!? NG - not safe.

[a_bab]

Yes Code Mason, soap it does react with acids, but is not a base. Is a salt of some fat acid with a metal (Na - hard soap, K - liquid soaps, etc). It is obtained with a "soaponification' reaction between a vegetable or animal fat and a base, releasing glycerine, soap and water...

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Damn, I got a nitro-headache again...

http://move.to/pyromania

[schweizer]

EDDN seems quite interesting to me: http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/EDDN.html

Especially the AN-using method to produce it. Ethylene diamine is expensive, but the yields are high, and it seems very easy and doesn't need a lot of other materials like acids.

But since ethylene diamine is water miscible it cannot be "dissolved in a minimum amount of water". I would even try to use only pure ED and AN, no water, so ammonia would just go away as a gas.

If this works, it is a really easy HE synthesis. :cool: What do you think?

+++++++++++

I think you need to learn what 'miscible' means. NBK