megalomania
September 29th, 2002, 06:39 PM
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted December 28, 2000 10:39 AM
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I had an idea some time ago. It was to give SO3, which can be made by a
rection between a sulfate and sodium tetraborate, to diluted nitric acid (I
can't get the concentrated one). The SO3 will react with the water, forming
sulfuric acid. If enough SO3 is used, both sulfuric and nitric acid should
be around 100%. Could this work? And if it will: When I try to make RDX for
which only nitric acid is necessary, will the sulfuric acid that is present
"disturb" the reaction?
Thank you
Rhadon
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 28, 2000 11:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That sounds like a good idea ! However I have no idea if it would work.
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 29, 2000 11:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This idea has possibilities. But I have never seen a process for making RDX where sulfuric acid is used. If it were possible you think it would be used because you could use a lower concentration of nitric acid, mix it with sulfuric acid which would absorb the water. This would be similar to the process for making nitroglycerin.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 29, 2000 02:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about bubbling N03 through the nitric to create higher concentration ? Just a thought.
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted December 29, 2000 07:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could I synthesize NO3?? Is this possible?
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 29, 2000 09:20 PM
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if you heat calcium nitrate you get nitrogen dioxide when added to water you get a mix of nitric acid and nitrous acid.
ca(no3)2 heated=cao+2no2+o2
no2+h2o=hno3+hno2
[This message has been edited by jin (edited December 29, 2000).]
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted December 29, 2000 10:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt that the nitrous acid can be used for trinitration of methenamine.
If SofaKing wanted to say NO2 and not NO3: I think NO2 doesn't reacts with water until the nitric acid that is formed reaches 100% concentration. Though I don't know the exact concentration that can be reached I think it's between 65-80%.
My target was to get nitric acid that is free from water, when I have time to test it out the next days i'll tell you if the mix of sulfuric and nitric acid can be used for making nitroglycerine. When I've got enough SO3 I'll also try to make TNT, but this could take some time.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 10, 2001 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SO3 to make 100%HNO3...mmmuhhhmm
good idea but very expensive one since let say you start with 70%HNO3 1000g will then contain 700g pure HNO3 and 300g H2O (16.66 mole); you will then need 16.66 mole of SO3 (100% dry) what is 80.05g/mole*16.66mole= 1334.3g of SO3.
Yeah it's a lot: 1.34 kg for 1 kg making thus a total of 2.34kg with a composition of 57% H2SO4 pure and 43% HNO3 pure.
How much does SO3 cost following your thoughts? Better then invest in the buing of a glass rod distillator (300-500 US$).
NxOy bubbled trough HNO3 to increase the %... nope you will have a lot of NO2 in the mix prompt to produce a runnaway.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 10, 2001 10:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Making SO3 with my method also will be quite expensive and also pretty difficult. Unfortunately I couldn't try it out up to now because my "chemistry fellow" who has the sodium tetraborate is somewhat busy right now.
Buying pure SO3 should also be difficult and it's very expensive, like you say. But this way's yet easier than obtaining 100% nitric acid.
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 10, 2001 01:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The concentration is 0.1 mol/l. 1 mol HNO3 weighs 65g, that's 6.5g of HNO3 per litre. Hopefully I didn't do a mistake.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 10, 2001 05:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you make your HNO3/H2SO4 mix with your SO3, you could use vacuum distillation to seperate out the HNO3 in pure form (for RDX), leaving 100% H2SO4 and 100% HNO3. I would have thought that 0.5 atmospheres at 50 C would work, but that's only a semi-educated guess.
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 11, 2001 12:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hm, I think this would work but I don't have the stuff necessary for vacuum destillation.
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted December 28, 2000 10:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had an idea some time ago. It was to give SO3, which can be made by a
rection between a sulfate and sodium tetraborate, to diluted nitric acid (I
can't get the concentrated one). The SO3 will react with the water, forming
sulfuric acid. If enough SO3 is used, both sulfuric and nitric acid should
be around 100%. Could this work? And if it will: When I try to make RDX for
which only nitric acid is necessary, will the sulfuric acid that is present
"disturb" the reaction?
Thank you
Rhadon
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 28, 2000 11:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That sounds like a good idea ! However I have no idea if it would work.
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 29, 2000 11:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This idea has possibilities. But I have never seen a process for making RDX where sulfuric acid is used. If it were possible you think it would be used because you could use a lower concentration of nitric acid, mix it with sulfuric acid which would absorb the water. This would be similar to the process for making nitroglycerin.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 29, 2000 02:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about bubbling N03 through the nitric to create higher concentration ? Just a thought.
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted December 29, 2000 07:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could I synthesize NO3?? Is this possible?
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted December 29, 2000 09:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you heat calcium nitrate you get nitrogen dioxide when added to water you get a mix of nitric acid and nitrous acid.
ca(no3)2 heated=cao+2no2+o2
no2+h2o=hno3+hno2
[This message has been edited by jin (edited December 29, 2000).]
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted December 29, 2000 10:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt that the nitrous acid can be used for trinitration of methenamine.
If SofaKing wanted to say NO2 and not NO3: I think NO2 doesn't reacts with water until the nitric acid that is formed reaches 100% concentration. Though I don't know the exact concentration that can be reached I think it's between 65-80%.
My target was to get nitric acid that is free from water, when I have time to test it out the next days i'll tell you if the mix of sulfuric and nitric acid can be used for making nitroglycerine. When I've got enough SO3 I'll also try to make TNT, but this could take some time.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 10, 2001 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SO3 to make 100%HNO3...mmmuhhhmm
good idea but very expensive one since let say you start with 70%HNO3 1000g will then contain 700g pure HNO3 and 300g H2O (16.66 mole); you will then need 16.66 mole of SO3 (100% dry) what is 80.05g/mole*16.66mole= 1334.3g of SO3.
Yeah it's a lot: 1.34 kg for 1 kg making thus a total of 2.34kg with a composition of 57% H2SO4 pure and 43% HNO3 pure.
How much does SO3 cost following your thoughts? Better then invest in the buing of a glass rod distillator (300-500 US$).
NxOy bubbled trough HNO3 to increase the %... nope you will have a lot of NO2 in the mix prompt to produce a runnaway.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 10, 2001 10:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Making SO3 with my method also will be quite expensive and also pretty difficult. Unfortunately I couldn't try it out up to now because my "chemistry fellow" who has the sodium tetraborate is somewhat busy right now.
Buying pure SO3 should also be difficult and it's very expensive, like you say. But this way's yet easier than obtaining 100% nitric acid.
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 10, 2001 01:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The concentration is 0.1 mol/l. 1 mol HNO3 weighs 65g, that's 6.5g of HNO3 per litre. Hopefully I didn't do a mistake.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 10, 2001 05:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you make your HNO3/H2SO4 mix with your SO3, you could use vacuum distillation to seperate out the HNO3 in pure form (for RDX), leaving 100% H2SO4 and 100% HNO3. I would have thought that 0.5 atmospheres at 50 C would work, but that's only a semi-educated guess.
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 11, 2001 12:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hm, I think this would work but I don't have the stuff necessary for vacuum destillation.