Cop Killer ???

[Al Capone]

Member deleted

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited September 27, 2001).]

[EventHorizon]

Are you asking about specialized bullets for defeating body armor / BP vests or the factory produced kind?

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-nothing here until I can find another that I like :(-
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[CyclonitePyro]

Don't use the name cop killer bullets, they are just armor piercing(AP), It's a long thin steel core, surrounded by a normal lead covering, that peels away when it impacts.

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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

[Heavy Recoil]

"Cop Killer" is a name made by the media, here is some info I scrounged;

a url (http://63.174.195.254/w45/ckb.htm) and some text from elswere ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHAT IS AP AMMO, BY FEDERAL LAW?

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (ATF)]

Note the following things from the definition:

1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does.

3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
or should be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet.
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD's and ammo
for DD's. The FFL's cost $1000 a year.

If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(8)
(with exceptions for making/importing for law enforcement, export, or R&D).
No additional restrictions, except as listed below. This applies
not only to holders of type 10 and 11 FFL's, but also type 7 and 8
FFL's (makers and importers of guns other than DD's), as well as
holders of a type 06 FFL (maker of ammo other than for DD's).

If you are a licensed dealer, manufacturer, importer or collector:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo without keeping a record of the sale, similar
to the bound book record for firearm sales. (18 USC sec. 922(b)(5)).
No additional restriction, except on dealers as noted below.
The records required to kept on sale or delivery of AP ammo need only
be kept for two years, not twenty years, like firearm records. See
27 CFR sec. 178.121, and 27 CFR sec. 178.125.

18 USC sec. 923(e) allows the revocation of a dealer's FFL
for willfully transferring AP ammo, with exceptions for sales to law
enforcement and so on. This is dealers only; holders of a collector
FFL (type 03) may willfully transfer AP ammo if they wish, but must comply
with the record keeping noted above.

Some states also regulate or prohibit armor piercing ammo, and these
laws may bear no relation to how the federal law works. For state
laws, check locally. The following states regulate AP ammo,
to my knowledge, but the definition of AP ammo and sort of
regulation may (and likely does) deviate widely from the federal
approach. NV, OK, RI, VA, AL, NY, NJ, IL, IN, KS, LA, MN, FL, PA, TX, NC.
I am sure that you are aware that "cop killer bullets" is strictly a media made problem. The term is used when they want to refer to any bullet that can (or they think can) penetrate a ballistic vest.
KTW bullets were refered to as cop killer bullets. There are a couple of other examples that are mentioned by name in the ATF "Yellow Book" Here's what I know. There were, in fact, several flavors of armor-piercing pistol ammunition designed over the years. Most used hardened steel cores. Some are flat cylinders of solid copper that punch through kevlar vests. (These are the currently popular incarnations.) Kevlar weave responds poorly to the shearing action a flat cylinder striking it. Of course, this kind of bullet loses effectiveness the less the angle of impact is than 90 degrees.
The original "cop-killer" bullets of media hysterics fame was the KTW "teflon coated" ammunition. Don't know anything about performance, but I do know that no police had been killed by them when the legislation banning them (and all other pistol-caliber AP ammo) was passed in the early '80s.
The now infamous KTW bullets, named so after the initials of the three police officers who developed the round, was a special purpose round to allow police officers to engage motor vehicles. The projectile was made of solid brass, and had the teflon coating to ease barrel wear. The teflon has NO bearing on its ability to penetrate armor. NONE. That was all hype. NO Police officers have been killed by this round to my knowledge, and it was NOT designed to cut through body armor. It was marketed as "Metal Peircing" ammo, and was generally of low quality. Came in, IIRC, .380 Auto, 9MM Para, .38 Special, ,357 Magnum, and .45 Auto.A need for a "hardened" projectile for handguns was researched in the 60's by Kopsch (a coroner), Turcos (a cop), and Ward (coroner investigator) hence KTW.
The round itself was designed for police use, to help defeat windsheilds, car doors etc. Steel was used at first, but brass was found to be better. Brass is hard on barrels so teflon was used to lessen the wear. The Teflon offers NO enhanced penetration whatsoever. As I recall the "Cop Killer" bullet hoopla was caused by the KTW Armor Piercing Bullet.
This was a Tungsten(I believe) relativily high velocity conical flat point or semi pointed round with a blue or green tefelon coating to protect the bore. The tungsten was so hard it would shoot out the rifling of a bore in a few hundred or few thousand rounds depending on who you wanted to believe. It was a law enforcement only item and cost about 3-5 dollars a round. I believe I saw it in 6 and 10 round packs. It was made in 38/357, .30 carbine (These I saw as my dad had a box of each) and supposedly 9mm,and 45 ACP. Maybe a few other calibers. Florida Highway Patrol issued these to it's troopers, and a few other agencies issued them. I can't tell you the history behind the round but it quickly fell by the wayside in the frenzy created by the media.I think production stopped in 1984 or 85 maybe earlier.There are several modern restricted alternatives that I won't discuss because possession is a felony.
Of special note is the fact till the media started this witch hunt most bad guys were ignorant of the newer light weight Kevlar vests then becoming popular in LE circles. There were several head shootings of officers after this circus against these bullets. Also to my knowledge there were never any shootings of officers using ammo such as this. A little bit of history, prior to the developement of this round the main heavy penetrator in the handgun field was rounds like the old 38/357 conicalpointed heavy steel jacketed lead cored round sold as ametal piercing round for defeating auto bodies. Geco used to make a 158 copy of this in .357 and .38 . Fiochi steel makes a 142 grain .38 and .357 copy of this load using a heavy copper jacket and lead core.
Another option is to use an extremely hard cast lead conical pointed bullet of say 95-125grains pushed to +P+ velocities and it will defeat some modern body armor. Contrary to popular belief defeating kevlar is a matter of bullet shape and velocity, with specialized materials coming a distant last as a criteria. In the mid 1960's, Dr. Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant) and Donald Ward (Dr. Kopsch's special investigator) began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets like windshield glass and automobile doors. Conventional bullets, made primarily from lead, are often ineffective against hard targets especially when fired at handgun velocities. In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel. If you ask anyone that knows absolutely nothing about firearms, they'll tell you that hollowpoints ("aren't those illegal?!?") will pierce kevlar, and a 9mm HP will make a grapefruit-sized exit wound or tear off a limb. These people only know what they get from the leftist media and movies like Lethal Weapon, where Gibson's character uses an SMG loaded with "cop killer" bullets to shoot through the (very thick, steel) bucket of a caterpillar tractor.

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"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein

[This message has been edited by Heavy Recoil (edited September 22, 2001).]

[Machiavelli]

Then you can find out what has the better steel, your bullet or your barrel threads.

[This message has been edited by Machiavelli (edited September 22, 2001).]

[Demolition]

I've got a video showing many different types of handguns and the ammo they use.One test was to see what handguns would penetrate through a car door.They used a variety of handguns including .357 magnum,9mm,.45 ACP and .44 Magnum.They fired 4 different types of bullets from each gun (including) armor piecing ammo.The results were quite surprising.The only bullet which penetrated the car door was from memory the 9mm armor piercing bullet.Even the .44 Magnum didn't get through it.
I'll have a look at it again soon and see what the exact results were.
Just a point the guy made on the video,he said that those armor piercing bullets were called "cop killers".However he stated that no cop had ever been killed by one of those bullets.


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Demolition

[Agent Blak]

If you think you might have to deal with "Pigs in a Blanket" I reccommend a 12gauge; Semi-Auto; Smooth bore; with rifled slugs(3") and/or OO rounds. If the hits the target and it is where ing a vest you will most likely put him down any way because there is that much force. I heard of this individual that put on a bullet proof vest put a phone book underneith is to cusion the blow and got his budy to shot him with the above stated slug. I broke his whole fucking back, through him in to shock and had to be rushed to the hospital.

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A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[nbk2000]

The NRA doesn't sell guns, they support lobbying for gun owners rights.

The gun you're thinking of is a .50 rifle firing AP BMG bullets.

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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[BoB-]

Please dont use the nickname "Cop-killer" its a name given to the bullets to help legislature pass that bans there use.

Flak-jackets are NOT flame resistant http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

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Teamwork is essential.
It lets you to blame someone else.

[Demolition]

Here are the results from the video.
357 Magnum
Full metal jacket-No penetration
Supervell jacketed hollowpoint-Penetrated the car door.
KTW Armour Piercing-No penetration
Glazer safety slug-No penetration
38 Special
Full metal jacket-No penetration
Supervell jacketed hollowpoint-No penetration
KTW Armour Piercing-No penetration
Glazer safety slug-No penetration
9mm
Full metal jacket-No penetration
Supervell jacketed hollowpoint-No penetration
KTW Armour Piercing-Penetrated the car door and shattered the window on the other side
Glazer safety slug-Penetrated the car door
44 Magnum
Full metal jacket-No penetration
Remington 210 grain jacketed hollowpoint-No penetration
KTW Armour Piercing-No penetration
.45
Full metal jacket-No penetration
Supervell jacketed hollowpoint-No penetration
KTW Armour Piercing-Penetrated the car door
Glazer safety slug-No penetration



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Demolition

[Anthony]

Oh my fucking god!

A car door is like 1.5mm sheet steel! I never realised handguns were so seriously under powered!

I'm surprised the 9mm round was the most powerful of all those listed.

I'm also surprised that the Glaser safety round penetrated better than a FMJ when it's designed *not* to over penetrate, is filled with shot and has a plastic tip. Although it does have higher muzzle energy than other rounds at 587ft/lb.

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"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"

[Demolition]

Anthony,I should of made myself clearer.All of the bullets penetrated through the front panel of the door however only some of them (the ones I listed) made it through the other side of the door and into the interior of the car.

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Demolition

[EventHorizon]

I seriously doubt that a 9mm penetrated more than the 357 or 44mag. 9mm FMJ/TMJ and a 44mag HP/SN maybe, but a 44mag FMJ would easily penetrate both sides of the door...unless the 44mag hit some of the reinforceing steel.

[edit] Unless it has something to do with the splatter factor because of the much higer energy.

I've shot 2" thick telephone books before, the 9mm FMJ gets about 1/4 through it, the 44mag HP makes it 3/4 through and the shock is devastating, almost tearing the book in two.

Seems to me I watched a show one time on bullet proof vests and there was a specialized 25 ACP round that had a conical FMJ projectile and it was loaded subsonic. It basically poked a hole pushing the fibers out of the way.

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-nothing here until I can find another that I like :(-
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[-A-]

Really strange results if you ask me...

[Anthony]

Are you sure this wasn't an armoured door?

Once you're through the door skin, there's nothing else but the interior fibreboard thingy to stop a bullet.

I remember seeing a picture in gun book of a car door having been shot with various handgun calibres. All of them penetrated (standard lead rounds) and it said somethign to the effect of hiding behind a car door in a gun fight offers no protection.

Also, car body steel is probably =<1mm, I was being conservative when I said 1.5mm.

Definitely weird...

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"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"

[BoB-]

The hide behind the door thing is just for the movies, the goal is to keep the engineblock between you and the shooter.

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Teamwork is essential.
It lets you to blame someone else.

[EventHorizon]

Sort of like hiding behind a sofa or flipping up a table, its pretty much useless.



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-nothing here until I can find another that I like :(-
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[Anthony]

I realise that, you wouldn't catch me hiding behind any of these things in a gun fight. But according to Demolition's results, in *theory* you would be safe behind a car door with regular rounds in any handgun calibre.

I remember hearing somewhere, might have been the LA bank robbers, that a cop hiding behind the front wheel of his car got shot my an AP round that passed through the engine block. Dunno whether there's any truth in that though, maybe the round just went through the engine compartment (around the engine block).

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"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"

[Fingerless]

I believe somehow those results are flawed-in my experience shooting handguns (pretty extensive) A .357 magnum is a much better penetrating round than a 9mm, and a .44 magnum absolutely destroys it. 9mm's really are kind if a wussy load (yeah, yeah, I still wouldn't want to take one)but are pretty well designed, just like the .40 S&W. True about handguns being underpowered, anthony-I think a .44 magnum produces about half the foot pounds of a 30-30 (Old, small rifle load suitable for deer and black bears)at 100 yards-and the 30-30 isn't much-in a rifle it produces very little recoil at all-but put the .44 mag in a handgun, which is very tame in a rifle, and you get a hell of a wrist bender.
If you want a true steel penetrating handgun,go for a .454 casull or even better a 45/70 chambered revolver http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif (Yes, they make them) Solid steel rounds with a light lead jacket would be good penetrators, or depleted uranium would be even better if you could get it.

[AR-15 Man]

Threads like this remind me how much Hollywood teaches people about guns. The media gives the name "cop killer" to almost every bullet. The date presented about penetration is believable. I have heard a 8 inched barreled 9mm SMG has some good penetration on vests because they typically use spitzer bullets and have higer velocitys. I haven't verfied this because the price of vests. If you want a handgun that can penetrate vests you do have some options. Some say only the FN five'n seven can only do this. A gun by the name of the CZ-52 chambered in 7.62x25 can penetrate body armor. This gun is surplus and runs around 150 dollars. But unless you only can carry a handgun don't limit yourself to just that.

[EventHorizon]

How about those Black Talon's that started all this "cop killer" media hype. Will they really penetrate a vest or is that BS.

BTW, whats the difference between the .454 Cassual and a .50AE. I absolutely LOVE shooting the .50AE, that baby will snap 3/4" rebar at 90yds. (its got the same energy at 100yds as the .44 does at the muzzle http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif)

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-nothing here until I can find another that I like :(-
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[SofaKing]

Does that mean you can't make your own SLAP rounds from those sabots in shotgun news. Damn
I think the talon rounds had steel cores even the handgun rounds, so possibly depending on the caliber and vest.
I'd like to see these cars doors !

mmmmm .... SLAP rounds

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With Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom

[Demolition]

Here's some pictures of the thickness of the car door.
http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/car_door3.gif
http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/car_door1.gif
http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/car_door.gif


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Demolition

[EventHorizon]

As I recall, the talons didn't have steel core but a different alloy copper jacket, such that the jacket folded back into a star shape configuration and produced a cutting effect. Then a teflon lubricant was added to the jacket to, I assume, aid in penetration.

Demolition, so what went through and what didn't?

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-nothing here until I can find another that I like :(-
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[Anthony]

The door isn't that thick... It's completely hollow, the bit with all the holes in is the door skin. If you pulled the interior panel off you'd be able to see through all those bullet holes. Besides the winding mechanism and the odd bracing strut.

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"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"

[DaRkDwArF]

laws oif physics, a larger caliber round won't penetrate as much because it has lower FPS but a higher mass, visa vera for the lower caliber, thats why a .22lr will go straight through you and won't expand as much, but a .357 will do lethal damage to a target

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Do or Do Not, there is no Try

[HMTD Factory]

As I recall from descriptions of cartridges in the book "Cartridges of the World", under .44 Mag it says the cartridge is appreciated for the ability to penetrate car doors but underused for that most people can't handle/shoot the caliber well.

Penetration depends on what bullet type is used. Solid lead? No; FMJ? Maybe; AP? Likely.
Angle of impact is also a factor.

[-A-]

DaRkDwArF, I think you are wrong. it's true a higher velocity bullet has more energy but a lighter one looses it faster. If you shoot a 9mm and a 45 through a series of wood panels, the 45 will go through more panels than the 9mm.
I definitely think this test is wrong. If I recall correctly, a 44 mag has more mass and velocity than a 9mm, and it didn't penetrated???.
Oh, and about the black talon thing, everything you have heard is bullshit. This bullet is NOT able to penetrate armor vests (not a level II vest, for sure.). It was just media hype.