Liquid explosive from NM?

[Einstein]

I was just thinking that could it be possible to mix 100% NM and 24% ammonia to form liquid explosive? I did a search with words liquid, nitromethane but they didn´t give me anu results :( From those ANNM conversations I have read (if I remember correct) that nitromethanes nitrogroup (NO2-) makes NH4+ ion more sensitive, so could this idea work or is this fucked up from beginning?

Also, is there other liquid explosives containing NM and some other substance (and I don´t wan´t to hear words Hydrazine OR/AND Astrolite!)

<small>[ August 10, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Einstein ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

NM is sensitised by ammonia. This could be achieved by shaking NM with conc. NH3/NH4OH (aq) and seperating the NM and aqueous layer, or (better) by adding anhydrous ammonia, either gas or liquid, to NM.
Of course, NM is by itself a liquid explosive, but it is not very sensitive.
It could probably be mixed with NG/EGDN/MN/EN (etc) to sensitise it, or you can dissolve lots of TNP in the NM, I'm pretty certain there's a patent describing this in the appropriate section in this Forum. TNP solubility in NM is something like 80%!

[DBSP]

Adding ammonia workes, i don't know about any ratios though, I've only heard adding "small ammounts of strong bases or acids". for 100ml of NM i suspect that 5-10ml of ammonia shuld be enaugh but don't take my word for it.

[Helos]

Ammonia sensitizes NM. How much that is good to add depend on how powerfull det you use.

I dont know if it is good to add ammonia gas - water will be needed for the reaction(wery silen, :) ) to take place fast.

(I am to tried to explain any chemistry by now by the way)

I have tested to detonate NM/ammonia25% in filmcanisters.
I had something like 25ml Nm mixed with 2-3ml ammonia.

It is important to shake well.
You dont need to separate but if you want it is easy, just remove the layer in the top of the bottle.
It worked well - most of the times, but I had two failures out of 18.
I used 0,8-1g HMTD in the dets.

[Southern Warrior]

Aniline also sensitizes NM if you can get your hands on it

[andreas]

maybe stupid but I always thought the old pencils that you had to lick to make them write better where analin based. This also gives a nice blue tint to the nm. I use it as a die for absorbtion indication of the nm in ammoiumnitrate.

[a_bab]

There are lots of so-called "aniline based" pigments. These are made with aniline, but usually are not toxic.

[nbk2000]

Alkyl amines will work to.

This means (most commonly) mono/di/tri[ethyl/methyl]amine. These all have easy synths or are readily available commercially. Check The Hive for info on making them, or perhaps Vogels.

[Chris Shiherlis]

Just a few comments:
NM can be sensitized by almost anything. Acids and alkalines, oxidizers and reducers, and other chemicals can turn the safe NM into a shock sensitive explosive.
Pure liquid NM can also be detonated, e.g. with 100 gram ANNM. Gerald Hurst desribes in some patent the detonation of 1500 gram liquid NM in an open container by 100 gram ANNM in an aluminium tube immersed in it.
And if you mix ammonia (NH3 in water) with NM some of the water (about 10%) dissolves in the NM which might have some disadvantages.
And you should remember that you need at least 5% of the amine to make the NM capsenstive. So if you use household ammonia (5%) you need at least 1 liter of ammonia for every liter NM.
And most NM racefuels have a indicator added to it which makes the fuel turning purple when it gets dangerously sensitive (which is what you need).

[andreas]

I once found a video of pure nm being detonated by a pellet off tetryl wich was detonated with an explosive bridgewire. But I don't know where it went. This test was done by a british explosives rechearch lab so it must be accurate. The only thing is that you can't see how big the pellet off tetryl was. But this goes to show that it can be detonated when pure. I'll try and find the vid and post a link.

[mr.evil]

i also saw that movie, it was the guy from the same program where he talks about old warfare, and light some pyrotechnic compositions in front of an old castle. I guess it was a very interesting program! :)

[Einstein]

Thanks for you all from the information! I´m very pleased now, so maybe I go to buy ammonia (24%) and use my 250ml of NM soon :D The NM what I have, is PURE. It doesn´t have any kind of other chemicals added into it, so it is good. So I would need to mix 250ml of nitromethane and about 12.5ml to 25ml of 24% ammonia (NH4OH) and shake and get the water off?

Does anyone know the reaction equalisation with AM(monia)NM? It´s something like NH3 + CH3NO2 =&gt; ??? but I don´t exactly know what is produced by detonation...

<small>[ August 11, 2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Einstein ]</small>

[kingspaz]

what happens is (i think):
NH3 + CH3NO2 &lt;=&gt; NH4CH2NO2
the equilibrium is quite a bit to the left but that doesn't matter because the result will be lots of NH4CH2NO2 forming and decomposing all the time. which means throughout the charge there will allways be some NH4CH2NO2 to make the NM more sensitive to initiation. its kinda like APAN in that an insensitive explosive (NM) is sensitised by a sensitive primary explosive, in this case the NH4CH2NO2.

[andreas]

I can be worng but I think this is the same reason why ammoniumnitrate get's sensitised by nm. But I think That nm would perform quite poorly on it's own because it has a ob of -39,3 and is quite a small molecule. You could mix it with an other explosive hi in oxigen. By the way I have a ob calculator not very advanced but comes in quite handy, and saves you a lot of calculating

[Einstein]

Thanks for the link RC. I thought that you may be interested in this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I think that 24% ammonia (NH4OH) is more easily came by than nitric acid, because paint shops and Biltema sells it very cheaply (2,90€/liter). Nitric acid (60%) will cost in pharmacy 26,50€/liter. So I think I´ll buy ammonia later next week IF I can get money for it....

[kingspaz]

andreas, you are right in saying that because:
NH4NO3 &lt;=&gt; NH3 + HNO3
although the equilibrium is to the left there is still some NH3 present to react with the NM.

[XP]

There has been research done at our lab on nitromethane detonation. It was found that the critical diameter (in confinement) for the detonation of pure nitromethane is 1.6 cm. However, you can add diethylenetriamine (DETA) to sensitize the NM in various proportions. We found that the maximum sensitivity was with a ratio of around 15% DETA. The critical diameter of that mixture is 0.6 mm (extremely small) !

However, this does not mean you will be able to initiate a detonation in such small diameters. We actually used a setup consisting of a large glass tube (&gt; 1 in) reducing to the small diameter tube. The critical diameter was taken as the smallest diameter at wich the detonation would continue to propagate.

[PrimoPyro]

NBK200 talked about various short-chain alkylamines sensitising NM. This is true. Methylamine being the best IMO, but also illegal to own or buy/sell, making it unattractive. All three methylamines, mono- di- and tri- are gasses by themselves, and both ethylamine and diethylamine are Listed Compounds. However, triethylamine is a liquid and is a commonpolar aprotic solvent for organic synthesis. It is known as trolamine commercially, and is not very expensive. It can be bought with zero suspicion, and is a rather common item for suppliers to stock.

What I have been wondering about (never tried this) is "sensitizing" NM with AN, or vice versa, "sensitizing" AN with NM. This would be similar to astrolite, but you only need a small quantity of nitromethane to make a perfectly balancing equation:

3 NH4NO3 + 2 CH3NO2 --&gt; 4N2 + 9H2O + 2CO2

1.5M NH4NO3 = 120g
1M CH3NO2 = 61g @ 1.1371g/mL = 53.645mL

223.7g NH4NO3 / 100mL CH3NO2 or 100g NH4NO3 / 44.7mL CH3NO2

I wonder if for example, just how much NM 100g of AN could absorb/homogenize with WITHOUT a significant increase in volume, which lowers density. I have no AN or I would just do it and tell you myself. More or less you are just making an ANFO charge with NM as the fuel oil, but a much larger percentage of it. Even if this ratio could not be achieved without critical loss of density, ANY NM homogenized into the AN should produce a significantly greater power in explosive, when compared to an equal VOLUME of straight AN.

I would easily think it to be much more sensitive as well. Only possible problem I know of is that NM is more hygroscopic than nonpolar fuels commonly used, so care would likely have to be taken to ensure dryness.

PrimoPyro

Shit, didn't even think to just check the fucking search engine, this has likely been discussed before. If so, my apologies, I'm off searching now.

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: PrimoPyro ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

Yeah, you should've searched! Never mind though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
ANNM it is commonly called here, or kinepak. A lot of our members have used it as it's a powerful HE that is very easy and cheap to make, and the ingredients are relatively inert until mixed.

What about hexamine to sensitise NM? That's easy to get.
Or you could maybe heat ethylene glycol (antifreeze) with H2SO4 drain cleaner and sodium chloride to produce ethylene dichloride, then reflux this with household ammonia cleaner to get ethylenediamine. Then use this to sensitise NM or make ethylenediamine dinitrate, or if you have some acetic anhydride or P2O5 you could probably make it into ethylene dinitramine.

[Einstein]

Well, I´m going next week to Tampere to buy ammonia (24%). Then I´m going to test that NM+ammonia thing...BTW, all Finnish guys can check the results in finnish from <a href="http://koti.mbnet.fi/vaakkupr/NEWpb/" target="_blank">http://koti.mbnet.fi/vaakkupr/NEWpb/</a> and I´m going to send pics here too :D

[Microtek]

NG or EGDN are excellent if you dare make enough. NG also improves OB, and of course both increase the power.
When I used this it was usually the other way round; desensitizing NG or EGDN with nitromethane.

[cutefix]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> "Also, is there other liquid explosives containing NM and some other substance (and I don´t wan´t to hear words Hydrazine OR/AND Astrolite!)" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I d not know if you really want to learn more about liquid explosives,or just plainly having an extreme phobia to hydrazine.But if you are serious about learning about liquid explosives then inevitably you cannot avoid encountering these powerful binary- Astrolite.
Look, even the late Timothy McVeigh first choice of fuel was anhydrous hydrazine when he designed that Oklahoma Bomb,but because he had difficulties ordering drums quantities of this rocket fuel, the only available supplier he found who could provide with him with such volumes quoted him such as high price for it that he was forced to shift to the more reasonably priced nitromethane in order to fulfil his goal.
Check if from the book titled ; “The American terrorist “written by Lou Michael and John Herbick , the only authorized biography of Timothy Mc Veigh.

I was wondering if he had enough money then, I would presume that the Alfred Murrah building would have been completely blown out,because of the very good brisance of this particular binary (compared to ANNM he was using)and casualties would have been much higher then. :cool: :D

[Helos]

Mr cool: How much hexamine do you suggest to sensitize NM?

Also is it someone who have any data on how much you need of different chemicals to sensitize NM?

[Helos]

Okay guys! Have you made any progress experimenting in this area?

Sometimes it can happen that old threads like this becomes inactive, even if they are not unimportant, therefore I will repeat my question:

Mr cool: How much hexamine do you suggest to sensitize NM?

Also is it someone who have any data (or have been experimenting)on how much you need of different chemicals to sensitize NM?

Myself i have only tested NM with ammonia (read above)

I also now that it can be sensitized by, hydroxides, carbonates hexamine, aniline and maybee nitricacid.

I also had guessed that if you want to use for example NaOH you need to add it in the form of a strong solution (or have NM with water in it, or it wouldnt work)

[Mr Cool]

I've never tried hexamine, but I think it must work.
Hmm... Hexamine forms 2+ ions in salts, mono/di/tri[methyl/ethyl]amine form 1+ ions, and it is known that 5% of these amines will sensitise NM, say 7.5% to have a bit extra for good luck... so I think you'd need about 5.2% hexamine to have a similar sensitising affect to 7.5% of triethylamine.

(Because 7.5*(M_R(C₆H₁₂N₄)/2)/M_R((C₂H₅)₃N) = 5.198)

<small>[ October 12, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]</small>

[xoo1246]

See patent: 3,977,921

[cutefix]

That patent is related to the use of polymeric foam to intiate nitromethane,such as polyurethane.The principle has nothing to do with amine-nitromethane combination.
I have not heard of the idea that hexamine can initiate NM.As most of the common blends consist of NM and mono and diamine like aniline and ethylenediamine.

[Cricket]

I am very interested in combining TNP with NM. Does anyone have any statistics, theories, or experience with this explosive mixture? I just thought, it might be good to staurate a volume of NM with TNP, then use that to make ANNM. You might have to use more NM, and the TNP may come out of solution when the NM is added to the AN. And I am not sure AN and TNP are compatable, but if so, this may be an interesting mixture that should have a pretty high VOD and good sensitivity. Thanks.

[cutefix]

I have not heard that picric acid would initiate nitromethane but by looking at past patent literature there are experiments that uses nitroglycerine and nitromethane,in which the results shows that the particular binary combinations did desensetize the sensitive nitroglycerine and make it less sensitive to shock. US Patent #2,338,120.
I was thinking in the same vein the picric acid sensitivity will not be affected and or/nor it will sensitize the nitromethane.However practical trials should be done to test the feasiblity as theoritically it will be more powerful as a binary liquid explosive.
In the other way the presence of other explosives would increase the energy output of the nitromethane just as what happened in the ternary explosive mix containing TNT,NM and pyridine.See patent #4,892,597
Nitromethane is a solvent itself and even TNT is soluble in it,I do not see any reason that picric acid will not dissolve in it in significant quantities thereby improving the energy output of NM.

Your idea of making a ternary mixture is not bad but if you will dilute the binary by soaking it in ammonium nitrate the explosive contribution of the TNP may become less noticeable.therefore its expected performance will be no different with pure ANNM solid -liquid binaries.
I doubt if it will even sensitize the nitromethane.However if you will sensitize this TNP and NM blend with any suitable amine then the ratio of the two explosives will be higher and you can distinguish significant differences in their explosive performance i.e., NM and amine vs. NM/amine/TNP.
BTW, this hexamine being a tetramine would be expected to be less an effective sensitizer than ethylenediamine ,aniline or ammonia .Were you guys able to practically test its performance in liquid binary explosives?

[Cricket]

I think you misnunderstood me. I meant to dissolve TNP into NM. And possably use this TNP/NM solution to sensitise AN. But I agree, if you were to make ANNMTNP (or maybe it should be said ANNMPA) that it would be quiet simular to straight ANNM. It shouldn't be handled too much or at all due to the TNP. I suspect it would further sensitise the ANNM and maybe increase the VOD slightly. And also, before anyone tries this, someone should find out of the compatability of AN+NM+TNP. Thanks.

[steve smith]

I have tried this elusive nitro/ammonia mix, and it just don't work. Tried with a detonator, 2 detonator, 3 detonator. I will next tried one hell of a booster, but i don't think it will amke a diff......

I am using 100% nitro, and 27% ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH /ammonia) maybe anhydrous ammonia? 5% solution of the ammonium.

any other ideas? comments?

(detonators were HMTD based)

[Helos]

If you are using the right chemicals (read my previous posts) and are making everything right, and place the detonator with around 1g pressed HMTD in the middle of a filmcaniser you will have no problem.
Maybee you used to little ammonia, just add a little extra.

[Terry Collins]

I agree, it should have worked, NM with ammonia should produce a cap sensitive high explosive. But I think it's a relative insensitive one. I believe you need a compound cap to set it off. And with those explosives difficult to initiate, other factors like confinement, charge diameter, etc. play an important role (maybe even the fact that some water is dissolved in the NM during the process and low temperature can effect/decrease the sensitivity). I also had some failures in producing this explosive and since it's also a bit messy I changed to another one.

So use a bigger detonator, I think even 3gr. AP is not enough.

[10fingers]

At one time the US government used NM for testing shaped charges because of the uniformity of a liquid explosive. They used aniline as a sensitizer. IIRC it was about 5% aniline. I think if you were to use ammonium hydroxide then it would have to be a much stronger solution than the usual store bought stuff. This is mostly water which would most likely have a detrimental effect.

[freaky_frank]

According to what Mr. Cool says.
About calculating for hexamine.
7,5% for triethylamine.
That's 7,5*(101,19/60,09) = 12,63% for ethylendiamine then.

That means for 10g PLX you need:
1,4ml ethylenediamine
7,73ml nitromethane.

I tried until now 0,65ml ethylenediamine and 8,3ml nitromethane (that is 6% ethylenediamine).
Anyway as I told in the PLX topic I'm going to do some tests this will replace the fourth test. So the fourth test will be with 12,63% ethylenediamine.

[Myrol]

Freaky Frank-> Where do you get your Ethylenediamine? Its also a nice stuff to make EDDN a castable HE-Salt (Ethylene diamine dinitrate). A Month or so ago I made a nice Batch of Ethylene Urea to make some EDNA.....well I didn't nitrated the Ethylene Urea but I want to make some Ethylene Diamine!

Have you some Ideas how to prepare this stuff? Ethylene Urea is a cyclic coumpound -HN-CH2-CH2-NH-CO- (imagine that the right Bond from the CO goes to the left NH group). If I boil that with Sodium hydroxide could it react like this way? -HN-CH2-CH2-NH-CO- + 2NaOH-> C2H4(NH2)2+ Na2CO3. I've tried this once, got a nasty strong Ammonia smelling stuff being less fluent like water, its a little oily. Great...how can I be sure its the Diamine and NOT just an Ammonia solution. :rolleyes: The pure stuff should mix completely with NM huh? A watery Ammonia sol. will always separate some water....arrgghh, with just these 5ml I have, this method seems to be to unaccurate.....

I think I will get my Hands on some real!! Aniline, Im pissed with such unknown shit and Im mad due to wasting time AGAIN for NO result!

[freaky_frank]

I know the feeling, but today I got a good result and it felt sooooo good.
Anyway a lot of thanks to Mr. Cool for that post for using hexamine, since via that way I calculated the ethylenediamine. BTW just tested it with 0,5g AP and that won't set off PLX and 0,75g PETN does.
Anyway I got it from my supplier it is a chemical company, PM me and we can arrange something that I won't tell on the forum open here.

BTW I've got 1,5liters of P.A quality ethylenediamine, and it smells like ammonia too, and there is also white fumes coming of of it.

[matweyy]

I have 1litre of ammonia (30%) bought in Italie for just 2 euro. So I think, for every 25ml nitromethane, wich is of 99.99% purity, I have to use about 2.5ml ammonia.
Well I always use AP in my detonators, what is the best place to place the detonator, if I use a filmcanister, just tape a AP detonator against it or what? And how sensitive is it really, is ANNM is 5/10, AP is 8/10, what would NM/ammonia would be?

[nuclearattack]

Aaaaahhhhh!
What are you saying?! Placing a detonator on a side of the canister will not detonate the mixture. You have to read and study a lot about explosives and related techniques! Read and learn before trying with HEs! A mistake in this hobby is able to transform you in a mass of dog food!
The detonator should placed in the center of the canister and i think the sensivity should be lower then ANNM, you should use a strong blasting cap but with your knowledge i suggest you to avoid this experiments and before making HEs you have to read a lot.