Log in

View Full Version : other nitrate explosives?


A-BOMB
August 21st, 2002, 12:46 AM
I searched aroung and found nothing really to the point so I'll ask, I recently came into possecion of a few pounds of sodium and stronium nitrate. And was wondering if these could be used as a explosive? and it so has anyone tried them, how many grams of primary were nessersary for detonation, and after that would be what was there reative power of each. So if anyone could help me I would appricate it.

Anthony
August 21st, 2002, 10:15 AM
I have no idea about strontium nitrate, but I have tried sodium nitrate/nitromethane. It's in the potassium nitrate nitromethane thread.

mongo blongo
August 21st, 2002, 11:31 AM
IIRC Strontium Nitrate is used in pyrotechnics to give red flames. I think it's red? I haven't seen it used in high explosive compounds though. Maybe it could be used with Nitromethane?

a_bab
August 21st, 2002, 01:08 PM
Yep, strontium nitrate gives red flames. Is very good for making red *bright* flares, in combination with Al or Mg powder and some vaseline. I used barium nitrate instead and the flare was very bright !

This mix was used in WW II for lighting the battlefields, pressed in a cardboard tube and attached to a parachute.

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: a_bab ]</small>

vulture
August 21st, 2002, 01:11 PM
There is a mixture called barotol, IIRC it is 25% bariumnitrate and 75% TNT. This could also be done with strontiumnitrate to improve the OB. BTW, strontium nitrate is something special amongst all oxidizers, because it is one of the few that produces more oxygen (in weight percentage) than byproducts like SrO and N2.

cutefix
August 21st, 2002, 07:55 PM
Baratol was used in early nuclear warheads as being the slow explosive, having a detonation rate of about 4500 meters per second.It was applied in high explosive lens system such as described in:
<a href="http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Nwfaq/Nfaq8.html" target="_blank">http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Nwfaq/Nfaq8.html</a>
The High Explosive Lens System
"The entire high explosive implosion system made a layer some 47 cm thick weighing at least 2500 kg. This system consisted of 32 explosive lenses; 20 of them hexagonal, and 12 pentagonal. The lenses fitted together in the same pattern as a soccer ball, forming a complete spherical explosive assembly that was 140 cm wide. Each lens had three pieces: two made of high velocity explosive, and one of low velocity explosive. The outermost piece of high velocity explosive had a conical cavity in its inner surface into which fitted an appropriately shaped piece of slow explosive. These mated pieces formed the actual lens that shaped a convex, expanding shock wave into a convex converging one. An inner piece of high velocity explosive lay next to the aluminum sphere to amplify the convergent shock. The lenses were made by precision casting, so explosives that could be melted were used. The main high explosive was Composition B, a mixture of 60% RDX - a very high velocity but unmeltable explosive, 39% TNT - a good explosive that is easy to melt, and 1% wax. The slower second explosive was Baratol, it is a mixture of TNT and barium nitrate of variable composition (TNT is typically 25-33% of the mixture) with 1% wax as a binder. The high density of barium nitrate gives baratol a density of at least 2.5. "

I t was reputedly used in early English grenades ;
<a href="http://www.defence.gov.au/army/uxo/gren36M.html" target="_blank">http://www.defence.gov.au/army/uxo/gren36M.html</a>
“A British Service fragmentation grenade, the 36M contained approximately 2.5oz of explosives (Baratol or TNT). The filling Baratol and a new waterproofing were first used for grenades used in Mesopotamia, hence the 'M' in the designation. The 36M was hand thrown or when fitted with a gas check plate was fired from the .303 rifle.”
In early grenades many explosives were tested including nitrostarch which are weaker explosives.If the grenade surface is corrugated it does not need much force to form suitable antipersonnel fragmentation.Threfore a blend of known explosive with alternative nitrates is feasibl even if its capable of producing VOD in the range of 4000 meters per second.

Therefore in the application it was added for the purpose of slowing down the detonation rate enabling the formation of a planar wave pattern from the shock wave in the detonation of fast explosive behind it.The change of wave pattern will then enable the compression of fissle components to achieve nuclear detonation.It is notable that the ratio between the TNT and Barium nitrate was in favor of the metallic nitrate.Hence any blend of alternative nitrate can be feasible.There was a tested formulation that even used lead nitrate to form plumbatol which was used in the same way as baratol in nukes.There was a case that even inert salts was admixed with TNT in these system(using boric acid to form boracitol).
If these reasoning is applied then its possible strontim nitrate can be blended with organic nitrate to form binary explosive mixtures.
However this strontium nitrate practical use in pyrotechny was for the fornmation of red flames.It may cost more that well known nitrates(such as NH4NO3,NaNO3,KNO3,etc so not cost effective practically for explosive composition.
However one of the advantage of strontium nitrate is its not as deliquescent as other metallic nitrates;that is why it has found use as oxidant in gas generating system-See USPTO 6,221,322
where its synthesis is listed as well a brief description of its peculiarities.
"Strontium nitrate emits red light when ignited, and is thus predominantly used as a material for smoke candles. Strontium nitrate is used in small amounts as a lighting material for briquettes, as well as an intermediate starting material for semiconductors, fluorescents, and the like.
In another recent application, the compound* has come to be used as an oxidant for gas generation in automotive airbags due to this compound's low deliquescence or hygroscopicity, relative stability against heat, and the like. Metal oxidizers have been used in the past as oxidants for the gas-generating agents of airbags, but these oxidizers cannot necessarily be considered as having adequate deliquescence, hygroscopicity, stability against heat, or the like, and a transition to strontium nitrate has gradually come about, as described above. "
Just like anthony said it can have possible application in some binary explosives he succesfully did with KNO3/NM and NaNO3/NM.

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>

A-BOMB
August 23rd, 2002, 02:51 AM
Well I'm going to try to detonate so sodium nitrate towmorrow(I hope) its a 50g(45g sodium nitrate,5g Malinium(al+mg) and the top inch is 75% sodium nitrate 25% T.C.A.P) charge in a cigar tube. Detonator is one of the 1.5volt battery cells from inside of a 9volt battery. Heres a <a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/New%20Folder/Picture%20148.jpg" target="_blank">Picture</a>
and heres a picture of the bag of sodium nitrate <a href="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/New%20Folder/Picture%20149.jpg" target="_blank">Picture</a>

Kalium
August 28th, 2002, 03:48 AM
Excuse me if my english is so bad.
Potassium/sodium nitrate could be used in solutions with AN(in some emulsive explosives). I saw some patents (dont remember num., but i can look for it) about using barium nitrate in blasting caps with DDNP.(Barium nitrate was used as a non-hydroscopic detonable nitrate).

vulture
August 28th, 2002, 01:50 PM
I don't think bariumnitrate can detonate by itself. It is probably used to increase density and to improve the oxygen balance in the blasting cap.

David 314
September 3rd, 2002, 09:32 PM
Gelignite is a form of dynamite based on potassium nitrate, and sodium nitrate might possibly be substituted. However, its hydroscopity is always a problem.

David

CodeMason
September 4th, 2002, 08:51 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Gelignite is a form of dynamite based on potassium nitrate, and sodium nitrate might possibly be substituted. However, its hydroscopity is always a problem.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Actually, it's "based on" nitroglycerine, as all dynamites are. Potassium nitrate is a minor ingredient, as a stabilizer with better oxygen balance than an inert material.

Asger
September 14th, 2002, 01:02 PM
Hi there.
I will cut to the chase right away. I'm a 'newbie' inhere at least. And I get the impression that such are not allowed to post new topics right away. (Yes.. I haven't read all your rules yet as I would like to post this month...)

I tried to find an existing topic as close to this as possible. The keywords for me is 'Nitration by electrolysis' I searched the web (google) and your forums aswell and haven't been so lucky.
I am interested in this since nitrates and nitration is probably yet still the most effective means for explosives and because I am not too fond of concentrated acids (you know wich) simmering in an icebath.

I read (Chemistry of powder and explosives pp. 228..) that Öhman in sweden once nitrated ethene by bubbling it along the anode where the created NO3 radicals would break one of the two bonds creating dinitroglycole.

What I tried myself was to have an anode of charcoal in a solution containing NO3- ions and nothing (interesting) happened. I gues I just wanted some (whatever) carbon based nitro compound. Not too smart.

Then I mixed some AN into some glycerine and electrolysed that keeping an eye on the anode. Something yellowish cloudish appeared from there but I never found out what it was. Though I think I would be too optimistic believing I made NG that way.

Well. This is it for now I guess. I am looking forward to some of you pros' opinions.

P.S. I didn't read all your rules simply because I don't consider myself a kewl or an ignorant fool (already sounds pretty ignorant huh.. :) [Yes, it does. Most k3wlZ and fools don't think of themselves as such...but they are anyways. NBK]) but just wanted this on it's way asap.
Thanks

<small>[ September 14, 2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

nbk2000
September 14th, 2002, 01:20 PM
You'll probably notice a common theme in the "Banned for Life" section.

That theme is FAILING TO READ THE RULES!

At least you didn't post a new topic which is an automatic banning offense.

But READ the Rules if you plan to stay here. Otherwise you're going to break one and find yourself banned.

carbonated
September 14th, 2002, 03:48 PM
A-BOMB, what was the result of your test? I have some NaNO3 as well, and am curious as to whether NaNO3 is explosive. In the KNO3/NM thread NaNO3/NM did a fair amount of damage, but was it just the NM and the NaNO3 sensitized it, or did the NaNO3 detonate too. By the way, Anthony, was that 30%NM?

<small>[ September 14, 2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: carbonated ]</small>

A-BOMB
September 14th, 2002, 05:40 PM
Well it detonated great! ripped all the grass out for a 1.5 feet all around the charge. Shit! I had some pics too there on one of these dics, I'll have the pics soon.

Fukineh
October 25th, 2002, 07:14 PM
There is an alternative form of nitrocellulose that I heard will detonate like a primary by conventional means (I have not yet made any and therefore have not witnessed this myself). On <a href="http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/nitrocellulose.htm" target="_blank">http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/nitrocellulose.htm</a> however, we see a video of this compound which is termed Cellulose Hexanitrate deflagrating violently. I would like to see if Cellulose Haxanitrate will explode as a primary under pressure unlike Cellulose Trinitrate, which is the Nitrocellulose that I recently made and I believe is most commonly referred to.