LSD from HBWR or Morningglory

timnickbear · Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:53 am

This post has been done before and there hasn't been a resolution to the question at hand. Is it possible to take HBWR or the glories and take that to LSD. It is understood that it would take a kilo or more of seeds yada yada yada, but I am talking about how to properly purify and extract the LSA from those precursors to get the LAmonohydrate.

loki · guinea pig

well presumably if one knows how to isolate lysergic acid, just prefix that with a hydrolysis to get rid of the existing amides, i'd think simple alcoholic extraction and hydrolysis would be all that's needed, then the purification of the lysergic acid (that'd be an extraction from out of an acidic solution right?). just a stab in the dark

stratosphere · Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:28 am

i thought the primary constituent of these seeds is the amide analog of lsa(as mentioned by loki) , how does one hydralize it to lsa without damaging it?
im not sure what function gets damaged but from what i understand its to fragile to even expose to hot H20,let alone refluxing in NaOH or HCl.

loki · guinea pig

amides are ammonia groups attached to an acid on the OH (this is not the same as the ionic bond between and acid and a base, amide bonds are how amino acids bind into peptides, between the carboxylic acid groups and the amine groups, hence the use of peptide couplers to do the reaction). they can be removed by base hydrolysis which is simply cooking it in an alkaline solution. lysergic acid itself is not *that* unstable, but amides are. i'm not totally keyed up on the proper methods but generally base hydrolysis is done in alkaline methanol, usually the base is potassium hydroxide (KOH).

i'm pretty sure there's information about how to turn the LSA's into lysergic acid about the place. i may be wrong and acidic hydrolysis is required, but base hydrolysis is what is in my memory when i try to recall what i know about getting lysergic acid out of lsa.

base hydrolysis should not damage lysergic acid, unlike DMT, it has no aliphatic amine terminal points on it which could close into a ring and change the chemical.

spicybrown · Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:41 am

This type of transformation is indeed possible. Likely one will need to do a chromatographic purification to get sufficiently pure LSA from the HBWR's (I'm not sure if it'd be worth trying with morning glories.. dunno), and then hydrolysis could be carried out with KOH, or apparently more effeciently with tetrabutylammonium hydroxide. It's been suggested in the past that one can get away without the chromatography at this point, but I'm not entirely convinced.

With purified lysergic acid in hand, peptide coupling conditions can be used to very efficiently form the diethylamide. Apparently it's been done with CDI (carbonyldiimidazole) and PyBOP before, I'd venture a guess that several others can work as well: HATU, HBTU, EDC, DCC, etc....

Now, whether or not one purified the LSA via chromatography or not, such a purification of the final LSD would definitely be required after the peptide coupling.

Yes, it's poossible. It's definitely only reasonable for production of small amounts for personal use; there was a rather long thread regarding this topic posted back in the day on the Hive, and I'm sure you could find it in the archive.

-SpicyBrown

loki · guinea pig

i'd say a purification of the lysergic acid could be done simply with recrystallisation, but after the peptide coupling you'd end up with a few other amides which would definitely require chromatography to separate. basically purifying the lysergic acid would conserve peptide coupling agent and amine.

prankster · Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:10 am

I think that you need 4 seeds of the HBWR for 1mg of LSA (impure)

There are alot of Alkaloids that are very similar. I dont know if Chromatography is that selective. I mean why LSA and not something with is very similar???

Alice · Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:04 pm

it is verry posible
exept of amides the plant material holds alot of other lysergic acids that hydrolysed to lysergic asid and used for making LSD

basicly u can defat 1st with cloroform
then crude extract with methanol
disolve in dH2O + heating
hydrolize by refluxing with KOH at 70 deg C
then apply to ph3
hydrolysed lysergic acid should crystalize and sink (its not soluble in acidic water)
filter and dry
then again methanol or ether + PyBOP + DEA
filter the PyBOP
add tartaric or maleatic acid and set in freezer
recrystalize in methanol

mk-1 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:08 pm

a few additions to alice's notes - lysergic acid will fall out of solution in ph3 in sulfuric acid solutions. HCl solutions for example will make it soluble.
but alice has a very good idea. sounds like quite an easy way, pending you have good seeds and the guts to make something like this.
ofcourse chromatography would be needed somewhere along the road.

loki · guinea pig

if its solubility can be exploited that way it should be possible to purify it fairly well with a series of recrystallisations, especially if done slowly in insulated containers

mk-1 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:18 pm

loki,
Lysergic acid can be rextalized from boiling water. Repeated rextalizations will get you a pure product.
Ergine is soluble in H2O, and is rextalized from methanol. Dont know bout the rest of alkaloids in there though.
It seems to me that the way to go would be as alice said first defat with chloroform (preferbly under reflux, then maybe a wee bit more with no reflux just shaking), then to reflux the seeds either in ethanol/methanol/whatever suits you, and evap under vacuum.
Take this residue, and hydrolize @ 70degC with KOH, and manipulate the newly hydrolized lysergic acid out of solution, which can be collected and rextalized (it would be a must, you were not using pure alkaloids, but rather a not-so-clean-alkaloidal extract...
Anyway, u take all of this, after its cleaned and couple in anyway you like the most.
just my 2cents.
This has been discussed alot before, and the same concepts arise everytime. its time we find new info.

loki · guinea pig

yeah like a new source of lysergic acid Wink

Alice · Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:57 pm

Penicillium roqueforti that used for cheese industry
and few other Pennicilium fungies Smile

mk-1 · Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:12 pm

this roqfor cheese fungus is not so good choice. it has very low concentrations of amide, and most of the alkaloids there do not have the complete lysergic acid skeleton, but rather some related structures. There was a pape, which i will look up abnd post about mutated strains of this roqfor penniciulium which actually were quite good for fermentation and lysergic acid production, but if 1 wishes to start from roqfor cheese and put that on agar, he is looking forward to lots and lots of experimentation before arriving at a usueful strain.

There are other types of pennicilium fungus though that produce nice amounts of alkaloids even before mutations. Research must be done.

prankster · Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:14 pm