Author Topic: lysergic  (Read 15576 times)

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formula54

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lysergic
« on: November 26, 2001, 09:38:00 AM »
i was using the fse and found many pathways to lsd... swim wants to experiment, but is overwhelmed by the amount of information on this topic.
so: to begin with i thought itd be good to start a new discussion on shuglins synth, and start from there. while im sure that many are well versed, i also know that many still want to learn about the ins and outs of this delicate procedure...so i figure we can learn together.

http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal26.shtml


ok- he starts with a lsa extraction from ergotamine tartrate. all chemicals here seem generally accessible: potassium hydroxide,sulfuric acid,ethanol,ammonia.

projected yeild is 3.5g d-lysergic acid hydrate from 10 grams et.   anyone have anything interesting to add to this?


(i hope that this thread will evolve into something great: a long discourse on various lsd methods for us youngins...even though i know im probly dreaming...seems like this might turn into lighter fluid for a utfse flame war)
54

foxy2

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2001, 09:58:00 AM »
Problem- ergotamine tartrate is highly watched and controled

You must get around this before dreaming this route, however the first step is fairly simple.  One thing I can say is that you should use photographic red lights whenever working with these compounds.  Or definately very low light, NOT a drop of sun or UV.

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hest

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2001, 10:00:00 AM »
It is not the synthesis of LSD there is hard to doo.
The best one is the synthesis in thikal.

But the main problem is to obtain some lysergic acid, it is almost imposible to by and hardt to synthesis.
When you first get a way to make the acid/amin/ect. you are home.
I guess that the biosynt with Claviseps pupura is the best way to doo it, it is easye to obtain and grows fast on annye agar. But I have no ekspirience with bulk growing in fermentations tank. Acramon ect. did obtain app. 2g/l in their fermentation, im stil dreaming.

formula54

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2001, 10:07:00 AM »
cmon foxy, gimmie more credit than that.
i figured there was enough claviceps cult. discussion already...and of course cafergot pills, if you can getem. lets skip to the synthesis.

ok- next step uses diethylamine...heres a post on this.

Post 71976 (missing)

(halfapint: "Re: got dimethylamine?", Chemicals & Equipment)

foxy2

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2001, 10:12:00 AM »
Well Shulgin ain't working with crude cell culture extracts, so lets discuss or post how we will get this ergotamine feedstock.  Lay out your plans, best to start now, if your lucky you can still find some grain with ergot this fall.

So the first step is all set and worked out.  Ergotamine, oh yea I forgot No Problem

If I was serious I would bee trying to grow it now.

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formula54

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2001, 10:22:00 AM »
ok, since egot cult does have some gray areas i guess we can start there. foxy: claviceps can be ordered...but if you really want natural cultures then its probly too late in the season.
heres some ergot refs

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/references.txt



there seems to be only one net recipe that i can find on mass ergot cult. Ingredients:

6.5 g Potato Dextrose Agar
5.0 g Bacto Agar
500 ml distilled water
15 mg Rifampicin in 10 ml Methanol
15 mg Penicillin G in 10 ml 70% Ethanol

Mix the first 3 ingredients, autoclave for 20 min. and cool to room temperature. Add the antibiotics and pour into sterile petri dishes.

Plate out the fungi using a 10-4 dilution starting with 5 g dry weight of compost in 45 ml of the autoclaved phosphate buffer. Put this first dilution in a blender at high speed for 40 sec.

Perform serials dilutions to 10-4 and add 0.l ml of the final dilution to each plate.

Incubate the plates at 28C for 3 days.

Take counts and samples of fungal colonies at 3 days.



foxy2

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2001, 10:37:00 AM »
Bee careful acquiring, I thought they were gone but they are not. 

Ok those are colonies, not mass culture! T hat doesn't give you ergotamine.  A few plates won't add up to anything.  You need submerged cultures, do you have the procedure for those?

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formula54

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2001, 10:41:00 AM »
oops..copied the wrong one..bee right back.ok:

Post 18071

(zephler: "Re: Ergot", Tryptamine Chemistry)

of course, ergot is poisonous, be careful, bla bla bla, no this thread is not for the eyes of idiots, bla bla, no  disclaimers for st anthonys fire ok? (saw this one coming.)

hest

  • Guest
Re: lysergic
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2001, 11:30:00 AM »
Wath is then the quistion ? All the chemicals in shuglins synthesis is easye to obtain, you can maybee tune the chromatograpic ting a bit, use the dry collum teqnice instead of flash collum (ore atlest use toluene insted off benzene) but that is abouth it.

Antoncho

  • Guest
Re: lysergic
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2001, 11:37:00 AM »
Dear Formula54, may i ask you a question, politely?

Have you (or SWINyou) ever tried to actually synthesize a synthetic drug from smth. other than ephedrine or essential oils?

All i know is that making LSD from pure alkaloids is considered to bee very complicated and only for the tough guys w/proper equipment.

If you're one of those then please forgive my sarcasm but i bet you aren't.

It's been SWIM's impression that synthing even the simple things may bee very hard for an amateur.

Antoncho

P.S. Foxy, you must bee laughin' now reading this ;)

foxy2

  • Guest
Re: lysergic
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2001, 12:25:00 PM »
Lol, well lets say I wish him luck and no Saint Anthony's Fire!!!
:)

Here are some articles

Production of peptide ergot alkaloids in submerged culture by three isolates of Claviceps purpurea.
Amici et al. 1969-464   Amici, A. M.; Minghetti, A.; Scotti, T.; Spalla, C.; Tognoli, L. (1969)
Appl Microbiol 18(3):464-468

On an alkaloid from ergot.
Anonymous (1935)
Science 82(2114):16

A note on the variability of alkaloid content of domestic ergot.
Atal, C. K.; Schwarting, A. E. (1957) 
J Am Pharmaceut Assoc Sci Ed 46:451
 
The new ergot alkaloid.
Dale, H. H. (1935) Science 82(2118):99-101

Effect of autoclaving and conventional and microwave baking on the ergot alkaloid and chlorogenic acid contents of morning glory (Ipomoea tricolor Cav. cv.) heavenly blue seeds
Friedman, M.; Dao, L. (1990)  J Agr Food Chem 38(3):805-808

Ergot alkaloid and chlorogenic acid content in different varieties of morning glory Ipomoea-spp seeds.
Friedman, M.; Dao, L.; Gumbmann, M. R. (1989) J Agr Food Chem 37:708-712

Recent advances in ergot pharmacology. Phillipson
JD & Zenk MH (ed) Indole & biogenetically related alkaloids.
Academic Press, London :285-291
Fluckiger, E. (1980)

Studies on cultural requirements of Claviceps purpurea and inactivation of ergotamine.
Michener, H. D.; Snell, N. (1950)
Am J Bot 37(Jan):52-59

Title: Biosynthesis of Ergot Alkaloids by Immobilized Mycelium of Claviceps paspali

Authors: Matošiæ, Sreæko; Mehak, Milena; Ercegoviæ, Lidija; Okwor, James
Journal: Prehrambeno-tehnol. biotehnol. rev
Number: 2
ISSN: 0352-9193
Volume:30, pgs83-88 (1992)
Language: hrvatski
Summary: The effect of the selected parameters on the biosynthesis ofergot alkaloids during semicontinuous cultivation of immobilizedmycelium of Claviceps paspali F-2057 was investigated. Comparingthe effect of various substrate mass in the me of biosynthesis ofergot alkaloids medium, it was established that the mediumcontaining 6% mannitol and 5% ammonium succinate yields moreergot alkaloids. For the biosynthesis of ergot alkaloids, 4.25g/L 6 days old mycelial inoculum appeared to be most favorable.Investigation of the effect of alginic acid concentration usedfor the immobilization, showed 4% alginic acid concentration tobe the mest favorable for alkaloid biosynthesis. Insemicontinuous process, the immobilized Claviceps paspalimycelium produced alkaloids over a period of 60 days (6reincubations). Productivity of the process in each of thereincubations with immobilized cells is 75 to 120 % higher thanin corresponding free cell cultivations and the totalproductivity with immobilized cells is two times higher than thatof free cells. The results obtained here show that immobilizationof mycelia forming microorganisms, might be effective inbiotechnological production of complex metabolites, such as ergotalkaloids.

Title: Effect of antifoams on the biosinthesis of ergot alkaloids by high-productive strain of Claviceps paspali F-2057
Authors: Matošiæ, Sreæko; Mehak, Milena; Šuškoviæ, Jagoda; Golob, Zoran
Journal: Acta Bot. Croat.
ISSN: 0365-0588; Volume:53, pgs.39-47 (1994)
Language: engleski
Summary: The effect of several surfactants i.e. commercial antifoams on biosynthesis of ergot alkaloids was studied. Addition of some surfactants of polyglycole structure and Tweens to submerged cultures of high-productive strain of C. paspali F-2057 caused a change in alkaloid synthesis intesity. Pluronik (polyetoxypolypropoxy polymer) added in the range of 0.25 to 0.75 % markedly stimulated the production of ergot alkaloids. The Pluronik-supplemented culture reached maximal alkaloid yields one or two days erlier than the control. Production of alkaloids increased twice. The maximal yield achieved was 5.35 g/L with the process productivity amounting to 17.2 mg/L h.

Title: Physiological diferentiation of alkaloid producing strains of Claviceps purpurea (Fr.) TUL.

Authors: Matošiæ, Sreæko; Mehak, Milena; Šuškoviæ, Jagoda
Journal: Acta Bot. Croat.
ISSN: 0365-0588
53, pgs.21-30 (1994)
Summary: Four different strains of Claviceps purpurea IC/39/20-B, G, R and W have been selected and isolated using common selection method. The relationship between intensity of pigmentation of the culture and the accumulation of ergot alkaloids have been noticed. Maximal alkaloid yields have been obtained with more pigmented strains R and W in the sucrose-asparagine medium (1.30 and 1.50 g/L respectively) and with less pigmented strains B and G in the sucrose-peptone medium (0.30 and 0.80 g/L).

Title(Thesis): Biosynthesis of Ergot Alkaloids by means of Immobiliyed mycelium of Claviceps paspali
Summary: Comparing the effect of various substrate concentration on thebiosynthesis of ergot alkaloid, it was obtained that a mediumcontaining 6% manitol and 5% ammonium succinate yields more ergotalkaloid. For the biosynthesis of ergot alkaloid, 4.25 g/L dayold mycelial inoculum appeared most favorable. Investigating theeffect of alginic acid concentration used for immobilization,obtained results showed 4% alginic acid to be most favorable foralkaloid biosynthesis. In semicontinuous process the immobilized,Clavicepd paspali mycelium produced alkaloids over a period of 60days (6 reincubations). Dilution of basic medium, or reducing thesubstrate concentration reduces alkaloid yields almost in aproportional manner. However, basic media diluted in the ratio of1:10 gave in a relative ratio higher alkaloid yield. Productivityof the process in each of the reincubations with immobilizedcells is 35% and 50% higher then in corresponding free cellcultivations in all tested substrate media, and totalproductivity with immobilized cells is three times higher than offree cells. Effect of surfactant-pluronik (0.25%) on ergotalkaloid biosynthesis in the medium diluted in the ratioo of 1:4was tested and obtained results showed that alkaloid yieldincreased by about 35%. The results obtained here show thatimmobilization technique, also of mycelia forming microorganisms,might be effecttive in biotechnological production of complexmetabilites such as ergot alkaloids.


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hest

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2001, 12:50:00 PM »
And where do i find Acta Bot. Croat ??
:)
But the point with collor selektion sounds werrye promissing.
Acramon et.al. just selected the most pink one, after 3 generations (with 100 sampels in each) the strain yealded app. 2g/l that is enough for mee :-)

foxy2

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2001, 01:34:00 PM »
"And where do i find Acta Bot. Croat ??"

Why Croatia of course! :o)

The summaries give some valuable information in themselves.  Yes that pigment phenomenon could bee key, yeilding grams per liter makes things ALOT easier.  :)

I am waiting for the picture of multi-grams of crystal LSD to bee posted to the Hive.  ;D   Having that much acid would bee scary!!!  It would warrant some serious protective gear, unless you have time for an accidental long strange trip. 8)

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hest

  • Guest
Re: lysergic
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2001, 01:43:00 PM »
Yes i think the key is the collour thing. I have been growing claviceps on agar some time, and thinking abouth scaling up, but time you know :-)
quote tikhal
----------------------
A totally pure salt, when dry and when shaken in the dark, will emit small flashes of white light.
-----------------------

I want to see that  8)

formula54

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2001, 01:53:00 PM »
dear antoncho,
             does it really matter? my discussion is valid. if you feel you are too intelligent, then why bother coddling us 'amatuers'.





-swi54

foxy2

  • Guest
Re: lysergic
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2001, 02:14:00 PM »
Formula54
Antoncho has a point.  I think you want at least a few hundred hours tinkering with chemicals in the lab before attempting LSD.  While you know what you want, I think that if you are truely interested in chemistry you will start out smaller.  Because if you don't then I can virtually guarantee you will get bored long before you make anything.  Hell if you don't want to take the risk then don't make drugs but play with chemicals some other way.

Chromatographic purification of DMT or Lysergic acid amides would bee great practice.  Any of the other commonly discussed stuff here is something to do and learn. 

Something to think about, but not to take away from this discussion, because this is a fun little chat. :)
Foxy

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Antoncho

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »

dear antoncho, does it really matter? my discussion is valid. if you feel you are too intelligent, then why bother coddling us 'amatuers'.




Dear Formula54!

My reply wasn't meant to bee a flame or something - i swear, i never do that (xcept one time when someone prposed to make NH3 from N2 & H2 and vacuum - lol.
I was just trying to give you a truer picture of how it really is.

Beecause i remembered SWIMself, when his chemistry was purely theoretic he'd fancy he would do this and that and make all sorts of tryptamines - it all looked so fine in theory,
but now - AMOF, he just got his feet wet in this - compared to people like, say, SWIhest - and he just stopped to think of certain things for at least next 2 years or so :)  :)  :)

See? All I said takes nothing from the validity (and usefulness as well) of this discussion. I just wanted to let you know, just in case.

BTW - people, this pink color thing ir REALLY cool, methinks.

Antoncho


formula54

  • Guest
Re: lysergic
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2001, 01:50:00 PM »
i understand the need for extensive lab experience, antoncho, and i understand where you are coming from, however lsd is a personal goal for swi54:basically this thread is   not   to see whether its too hard, but rather if the chemicals/equipment are at least reasonably available, to review the synthesis in depth, with attention also paid to the inherent danger in some of the components. btw..i dont consider ergot to be dangerous, since complete precautionary procedures would have to be assumed...like absolutely no physical contact with the substance.
ok ill continue step by step tomorrow.

-swi54

yellium

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2001, 02:15:00 PM »
If you're going for self-sufficiency, you might as well try to get used to chemistry by synthing 2C-B or DOB first.

Note: don't sell DOB as `err, something like acid', because it isn't. Don't let people overdose themselves because they don't know (or are to impatient) to wait for three hours for full effects.  :(

Bozakium

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Re: lysergic
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2001, 11:38:00 PM »
LSD is far, far, far more difficult to make than meth or MDMA, now that lysergic acid is very, very controlled..
 I have not found a single case of successful dish culture of the fungus, you must grow rye is the word.
  For a good starting point for the truly interested, try Fester's book: Practical LSD Manufacture, published by loompanics. Some may not be Fester fans, but it is the only reasonable book on the subject, easy to read and LOADED with references for the truly dedicated.