Author Topic: Denatured Alcohol  (Read 10089 times)

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wareami

  • Guest
Rubber Solvent
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2002, 06:28:00 PM »
ClearLight: Most content listing's on Denat Alky just indicate "Rubber Solvent" on the container....but a further search dug up the chem name....
"Aliphatic Petroleum Distillate 64742-89-8", however this still leaves alot to the imagination and has peaked Ibee's awareness further as to why all the secretive labeling....

Here is what the Pure Denat from Ace Hardware lists:
•Ethanol CAS #64-17-5
•Methanol CAS #67-56-1
•Methyl Isobutyl Ketone CAS #108-10-1
•Ethyl Acetate CAS #141-78-6
•Rubber Solvent CAS #64742-89-8
•Water CAS #7732-18-5
Usually when listing contents, manufacturers generally list them in proportionate order...most abundant being listed first.

Several bees had PM'ed over the amount of h2o content being a concern in extraction! It is minimal and one can see that when considering that most Denatured Alcohol is suitable for alcohol lamps and will burn clean and dry!
So for this reason Ibee has never considered it a threat to the Dry Matrix Formula in OTC pfed extractions....especially when the alternatives are considered to be purer and attract more inactives.

It's just strange that they won't just come right out and list the chemical name when labeling! Instead, it's just...."Rubber Solvent"!!!
WTF????

Scottydog sent me a link a while back with some Denatured Alcohol Facts surrounding major hardware store brands...While it's outdated, it still contains some interesting info...

http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/notes/alcohol%20fuel.htm


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Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
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paranoid

  • Guest
from the natural source
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2002, 08:14:00 PM »
In terms of distilling ethanol from fermented products, isn't there some concern over the collection of fusel (sp?) oils which have a similar BP to ethanol?  Perhaps it just requires very careful distillation, but I remember an old chem instructor warning me about this one time when we were discussing distillation.

terbium

  • Guest
Fusel oil
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2002, 09:30:00 PM »
Merck Index:

  4339.    Fusel Oil. 
    A by-product of carbohydrate fermentations to produce ethyl alc.  The material varies widely in composition, depending on the fermentation raw material used, but contains chiefly isopentyl alcohol and 2-methyl-1-butanol as well as isobutyl alcohol (20%), n-propyl alcohol (3-5%), and small amounts of other alcohols, esters and aldehydes.  Described as an oily liq with a disagreeable odor; 60% boils at 122-138 deg.  Amyl alcohol (commercial) obtained by chemical treatment and refining of fusel oil contains about 85% isopentyl alcohol and 15% 2-methyl-1-butanol.  Ref:  Industrial Chemicals, W. L. Faith et al., Eds. (John Wiley, New York, 2nd ed., 1957) pp 107-114.
          Caution:  Commercial amyl alcohol is considerably more toxic than ethyl alcohol.  See also 1-Pentanol and Isopentyl Alcohol.


former_chemist

  • Guest
Distilling Denatured
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2002, 10:30:00 PM »
Ok the ace stuff would be #1 denatured alcohol using the general use propietary formula.  That means you have 100 parts EtOH, 4 parts MeOH, 1 part MIK, Then 1 part rubber solvent and 3 parts ethyl acetate is added.  The EtOH used is probably the 95% (azetropic) meaning you have 95 parts EtOH and 5 parts water. Total mix is 109 parts.

Rubber solvent is a mixture of aliphatic hydrocarbons (naptha) containing hexane and heptane.  These form azeotropes with EtOH. Ethyl acetate also forms an azetrope, I am not 100% sure (can't find any references) but I think MIK also forms an azetrope.  That means if you distill the stuff you may not have any methanol but you will have three azetropes of NASTY stuff.

wareami

  • Guest
MIK.....
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2002, 11:41:00 PM »
Description:

Methyl isobutyl ketone (CAS# 108-10-1) is a colorless liquid that is used as a solvent for vinyl, epoxy, acrylic and natural resins, nitrocellulose, paints, varnishes, lacquers, protective coatings, rare metal extraction, and dyes. It is used as a denaturant for rubbing alcohol, a synthetic flavoring adjuvant, and a fruit flavoring. It is used in extracting uranium from fission products, dewaxing mineral oils, manufacturing antibiotics, dry-cleaning preparations, and the synthesis of methyl isobutyl carbinol. It occurs naturally in oranges, grapes, and vinegar.

Chemical properties:

Methyl isobutyl ketone has a faint ketonic and camphor odor. It is classified under the Clean Air Act as a volatile organic compound. It is moderately soluble in water, and soluble in alcohol, ether, acetone, benzene, and chloroform. It is miscible with most organic solvents. It is reactive or incompatible with strong oxidizers, potassium, and tert-butoxide. It is highly flammable and will be easily ignited by heat, sparks, or flame. Its vapors may form explosive mixtures with air and may travel to the source of ignition and flash back. The vapor may explode if ignited in an enclosed area. Most of its vapors are heavier than air, and its liquids are lighter than water. Methyl isobutyl ketone ignites on contact with potassium-t-butoxide. It can react vigorously with reducing materials. Synonyms for methyl isobutyl ketone include hexone, isobutyl methyl ketone, 4-methyl-2-pentanone, and isopropyl acetone.

Identification:

Chemical Name: Metyl Isobutyl Ketone
Regulatory Name: Methyl Isobutyl Ketone
Formula: (C6H12O)
DOT Label: Flammable Liquid
CAS: 108-10-1
STCC: 4909244
CHRIS: MIK
UN Number: 1245
Health effects:

Exposure to methyl isobutyl ketone may cause gastrointestinal disturbances and central nervous system impairment, headache, nausea, vomiting, and respiratory tract irritation. Chronic exposure may cause axonal neuropathy, paresthesia, and muscle weakness. Ingestion of methyl isobutyl ketone may cause central nervous system depression, respiratory depression, dyspnea, pulmonary aspiration, and corrosive effects. Inhalation may cause coma, nausea, headache, vertigo, incoordination, central nervous system depression, narcosis, dizziness, tremors, cardiorespiratory failure, and eye, nose, and throat irritation.

Exposure Values:

IDLH: 500 pp (NIOSH, 1997)
TLV TWA: 50 ppm (©ACGIH, 1999)
TLV STEL: 75 PPM (©ACGIH, 1999)
NIOSH REL: TWA 50 ppm (240 mg/m3)
OSHA PEL: TWA 100 ppm (475 mg/m3)
Economics:

U.S. manufacturers of methyl isobutyl ketone are :Eastman Kodak Company, Longview, TX; Shell Oil Company, Deer Park, TX; and Union Carbide Corporation, Institute, WV
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Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
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ClearLight

  • Guest
Os question...
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2002, 01:02:00 AM »

 So osmium, with all those nasty azeotropic type things that the ATF likes to see there, mek, ethyl acetate etc...

  can a good column get a good separation, or is it all just azeotrope city... ( I know the MeOH + EtOH can be done it's the other stuff I'm curious about )

thx


Infinite Radiant Light - THKRA

Osmium

  • Guest
Well, you have to pick a denatured EtOH which ...
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2002, 01:35:00 AM »
Well, you have to pick a denatured EtOH which contains only stuff that can be separated by distillation. I'm sure it is possible to somehow separate all of these mixtures, the question is if it is worthwhile.
PS: ethyl acetate can be dealt with by adding NaOH.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

Rhodium

  • Guest
Ethanol from Ethyl Acetate
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2002, 10:20:00 AM »
My own prefered way of obtaining pure 95% ethanol is to buy OTC technical ethyl acetate, add 1.1 equivalents of 50% NaOH very slowly (VERY exothermic) with stirring and then removing the formed ethanol by simple distillation of the mixture to obtain ~75% aqueous ethanol. Fractional distillation then easily gives you 95% ethanol. If absolute ethanol is desired, it is dried by  distilling from an excess of calcium oxide.

former_chemist

  • Guest
Azeotrope city
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2002, 10:57:00 AM »
Clearlight: these things are only approved if they CAN'T be separated easily by distillation.  The azeotropes won't separate with distillation.

Osmium: Most industrial and OTC alcohol solvent (stuff not for human cosmetics or consumption) contain that "rubber solvent" or MIK in addition to ethyl acetate (which no formula contains exclusively).  But sodium bisulfite should precipitate the MIK.  That only leaves that pesky rubber solvent.

wareami: Good info, MIK is very nasty stuff,  BP 117.4°C, still don't know if it forms an azetrope with ethanol though.

Rhodium: Thanks chief.

I usually just go buy some everclear at a liquor store.  They don't blink twice if you get a couple of gallons.  Being a known alcoholic has its advantages. Sometimes they ask if I am gonna share some, I tell 'em "No, the party is strictly BYOB and this is MINE!".  Redistilled OTC grade works fine as a solvent.

Rhodium

  • Guest
Everclear data
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2002, 12:28:00 PM »
How much do you pay for everclear in the US, and what percentage is it?

In my country I can only find clear spirits of 60% or lower.

overclock

  • Guest
MMMmmm....
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2002, 01:13:00 PM »
190 Grain in my neck of the woods. 95% Alcohol ready for consumtion. About 10-20$ a fifth.(@750/800ml) round here depending on the brand. Personally I can't really tell the difference as it's too strong to drink out of the bottle and has to be mixed.

-OC

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

wareami

  • Guest
everclear......
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2002, 01:30:00 PM »
Rhodium: UTOTHERFSE.....
Haahhaaahhaaa!!! Couldn't resist Chief!!!

Grain Alcohol is a spirit derived from the fermentation of grain. It is distilled twice.
At 190 proof or 95-percent pure alcohol, Everclear is 95% pure grain alcohol, odorless, tasteless, and very potent.
Grain alcohol is used by cooks, distillers of other alcoholic beverages, and for medicinal purposes.
It can be purchased for $19.69 750ml and cheaper in bulk quanities and can be aquired online but some distributors state they won't ship to
Pennsylvania, Washington, Oregon, or California.

Another side note is this rather humorous tale of mixing everclear and nicotine:

Anyway, I'm hanging out one day and in walks Marc Olson, Bucketeer and pre-med student at that time.

I occasionally chew tobacco, and so does Mark. I chew Redman "leaf", and Marc, being a pussy, chews (or rather sucks on) Skoal Bandits - which are known in the vernacular as "tampons" due to the fact that they're little tea bag shaped puches of snuff, for pretty boys and fags who can't handle the real thing.

So Marc mentions that he's heard that if you soak a bandit in brandy or other strong liquer that it gives you a strong nicotine buzz. The theory is that the alcohol strips the mucus lining in your mouth, and disolves the nicotine faster, and thus pumps it into your bloodstream several times faster than normal.

So, what the hell. We soak a handfull in whiskey and shove about 3 each between our cheek and gum. Guess what? It works!

So, being the creative types we are -- if a little alcohol works, imagine what a LOT of alcohol will do?! It so happens that I always try to keep a few bottles of Everclear on hand. I assume everybody knows that Everclear is 190 proof grain alcohol, the closest thing you can make to pure alcohol. By comparison, normal whiskey is 80 proof, and extra-strong stuff such as Wild Turkey is 101 proof.

So, we soak a new batch in Everclear, and pack those bad boys in.

DAMN! After a few seconds they really started to burn! For those that have never chewed, let me inform you that regular chew has a burn to it. Not horrible, but about the level of tobasco sauce. It's part of what I like about chew. But this was a REAL burn. Dang! So my eyes are watering, and I'm hopping around from one foot to the other, but I'm not going to take it out darn it.

After about 5 minutes the burn had more or less subsided, but the pain had blocked out whatever nicotine effect there may have been. So I open my mouth and pull out the tampon. And along with it comes a perfectly square patch of skin. Ugh. The alcohol and tobaco juice combination was too strong. It killed all the skin it came in contact with, which stuck to the wrapper of the bandit - and left me with these nice little 1/2" X 3/4" rectangular raw patches in my mouth, on both the inside of my cheek and my gums.

It was like having three of the largest canker sores in the history of mankind. They took about a week to heal.

So, kids. Let that be a lesson to you. Don't be a stark raving idiot.




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Have FUN-Bee SAFE


Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami

geezmeister

  • Guest
But
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2002, 03:04:00 PM »
It would take all the fun out of mash.

An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.

foxy2

  • Guest
Which States?
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2002, 03:35:00 PM »
Where is the 190 proof grain spirits legal?

Indiana, Wyoming and Wisconsin sell it I think?

CA, OR, WA, PA, MN, MI, UT, NH and most of the bible belt don't sell it.  As far as i know.

Anyone know where else its legal?

Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety

goiterjoe

  • Guest
It's in the bible belt
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2002, 03:41:00 PM »
I've seen it in NC, SC, VA, GA, and FL.  I've also heard of people getting on the other side of the mountains from us.

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

wareami

  • Guest
Azeotropes and Fract Dist.
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2002, 03:44:00 PM »
Geez: I hear that! ;)

To give bees a better understanding of fractional distillation, Ibee copied this from one of his chemistry books...

The liquid obtained by condensation of vapor in a distillation is known as the distillate.
If a mixture of volatile substances is distilled, the vapor will be richer in the more volatile component. For example, the distillate obtained from the the distillation of wine has a higher alcohol content than the wine, because alcohol is more volatile than water. Small percentages of minor components that impart flavor and aroma also are found in the distillate, which is known as brandy. However, a single simple distillation does not effect complete separation of the components of wine. If several components of a mixture have similar volatilities, repeated distillations may be necessary for complete saturation.

A fractionating column effects in a single operation what may require several simple distillations. This procedure is called fractional distillation. The column has a packing such as glass beads that provides cooling space where part of the vapor condenses as it moves upward from the distilling flask. The condensed liquid is richer in the least volatile component. As the condensed liquid trickles down the beads toward the distillation flask, it comes in contact with fresh vapor moving upward from the flask. Because the vapor is hotter than the liquid on the beads, heat interchange occurs. As a result, the more volatile part of the liquid vaporizes and the less volatile part of the vapor condenses. Thus the vapor becomes further enriched in the more volatile component. Because many such heat interchanges occur along the column, only the most volatile component or components of the mixture are finally able to reach the condenser and escape.
Fractional distillation is used to separate crude oil into fractions. Commercially this is done using equipment of very sophisticated design. The fractions referred to as gasoline, kerosene, and lubricating oil differ in volatilities. The more volatile component, gasoline, boils in the the approximate range of 60-150°C, whereas kerosene and lubricating oil boil in the 150-250°C and 250-350°C ranges respectively.




Ibee realizes that this may be common knowledge for some, but he had a hard time understanding what exactly was taking place until he started reading and learning, and the above helped him to understand more about fractional distillation!
Hope this helps some bees!

Former_MadPsyentist: ;D According to the CRC, no azeotropes are formed by the MIK ..with ethanol in the binary system, but in the ternary system it only lists azeotropes with...ETHANOL...METHYLETHYL KETONE...and WATER...but NOT MIK.
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Have FUN-Bee SAFE



Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami

wareami

  • Guest
Legality
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2002, 03:57:00 PM »
It is completely legal for you to produce liqueurs using the processes of infusion and blending, but illegal to involve or use the process of distillation without proper permits and licenses.
Alcohol bases used to make your liqueurs, 190° proof grain alcohol, vodka, brandy, etc., must be purchased legally. Alcohol can be transported between states, even if it is not sold or illegal in your state. Check with your state liquor board for quantity limits.
It is illegal to sell or offer your home-made liqueurs for sale. However, it is perfectly legal to produce liqueurs for you and your friends’ personal consumption. They make great gifts! Whatever you do, do not get money involved in the consumption or distribution of the liqueurs! The Feds want their taxes!?
If a name has a ™ or ® beside it, that means it is a trademark or registered trademark, respectively, and is considered proprietary information of that company. The name should not be used to label your home-made liqueurs.
If you are a creative naturalist interested in making new and unique liqueurs, here is something to think about—
For well over 100 years, Wormwood, a common herb, had been used as the major flavoring ingredient in the very popular Absinthe liqueur. Drinking Absinthe in large doses caused irreversible neurological damage due to a strong narcotic, thujone, found in Wormwood. Absinthe liqueur was finally illegalized for sale and manufacture in many countries, including the United States, on March 16, 1915. It was invented in the late 1700’s.
If you are going to experiment with wild plants or anything for that matter, make sure you know what you are dealing with. The sky is the limit, and who knows, maybe you’ll come up with the markets next-best selling liqueur. ;D
It funny how legality issues RUB across our GRAINS in any STATE we're in! :)
Ibee is still looking for a list of the GrainDry states(Illegal)!
Peaceof the reaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE




Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami

paranoid

  • Guest
ha!
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2002, 09:22:00 PM »
When coming back from the USA into Canada once I picked up 1.14 l (40 oz) generic brand bottle of 95% alcohol for $15 (US) at the duty-free shop.  Not bad at all!

former_chemist

  • Guest
My cost
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2002, 11:42:00 PM »
Right now my cost is about $14/750ml, larger bottle is $25/1.5L.  Everclear (95% grain alcohol) is popular in Arkansas and Louisiana, in addition to some of the other states mentioned (Texas for instance).  Some localities don't even allow the sale or possession of alcohol (except during transport) in Louisiana and Texas. Different states have different laws and counties (parishes in Louisiana, same thing different name) sometimes differ.

UKBEE

  • Guest
you lucky guys
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2002, 03:02:00 AM »
your lucky you can get 190 proof ,in the UK that would just be so expensive to buy as the duty rate in levied on the % of Alcahol in the product so 190 would probably have a stupidly high tax..

not sure of the tax banding but its something like

Beer 3-7% Band A
Wine 9-12% Band B
Fortified Drinks 12-21%
Spirits 22-43%


etc

each band has a higher duty levied..

and duty paid ethanol is v expensive...




I love the smell of Ketone in the morning.