MeNO2 + Fe/HCl -> MeNH2 w/o KABOOM

[alchemy_bee]

Heeding any warning that may lead to SWIM's  fiery death; What of this warning on Eleusis' FAQ regarding the reduction of nitromethane to methylamine in a Fe/HCl system. Is this warning valid, if so, chemically what occures and what precautions and considerations should be taken?

The Methylamine FAQ v2.7...

*CAUTION*
The lower nitroalkanes form shock and/or temperature sensitive EXPLOSIVE compounds with amines and hydroxides. BE CAREFUL, DAMNIT! You have been warned...

Can a bee be visa vis its entity when half a bee philosophically must ipso facto half not be?

[Osmium]

No precautions necessary whatsoever, since 1) you are dealing with a solution, and 2) the whole deal is acidic anyway.
I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

[alchemy_bee]

At the end of this time, allow to cool then add enough 25% Sodium Hydroxide solution to to get the pH above 11. Heat on a water bath or with gentle electric heat to drive the Methylamine off as a gas into the same beaker of Hydrochloric acid used as a trap during the reaction.

That is to say the solution will no longer be acidic at one point, does this pose any consideration for a conserned bee?

Can a bee be visa vis its entity when half a bee philosophically must ipso facto half not be?

[alchemy_bee]

Also purly for conversational purposes how street applicable is this method? I only recently came across it on rhodium's site and can only find a few mentions through the search engine. Are routes from ammonium chloride and the such much better? Does the Fe/HCl system have any particular merits?
Can a bee be visa vis its entity when half a bee philosophically must ipso facto half not be?

[bocuse]

I have read texts that say nitromethane and a few % amine like ammonia or aniline do
sensitize nitromethane to form a brisant high explosive. But this would be detonated by a
#8 blasting cap so i can't imagine it going off by itself. Heating would of course make it
a bit more sensitive but as long as you're not shooting your flask you should be fine. If it's
diluted - don't worry.

-paul

[terbium]

sensitize nitromethane to form a brisant high explosive. But this would be detonated by a
#8 blasting cap so i can't imagine it going off by itself.
Where do you get the information that a blasting cap would be required?

[ClearLight]

Any amine containing compound added to nitromethane sensitizes it to detonation. (ammonia, aniline etc.)  This is commercially sold as Kine-Pak, a two part blasting compound of NH4NO3 + NM  This stuff goes high order at about 7800-8100 m/sec... addition of 3% phenolic microspheres assures uniform detonation and lowers sensistivty through propagation through "hot spot" initiation through out the mixture...  Does a really nice shaped charge as well...this was the primary mix for the Okla city bombing.

  The ratios are around 20-30% NM and the rest NH4NO3 although only 2-3% v/v is necessary for Straight NM sensitization...
 
  As to being in an acidic solution, don't know about that...  It does require shock + heat, heat alone will not be enough... do NOT drop the flask!

Infinite Radiant Light - THKRA

[Osmium]

The main explosive in the Oklahoma City bombing was probably C4, that fertilizer truck was just for show. But this is off-topic!

ANYWAY!

Yes, nitromethane is sensitized by bases. But as I said before, this reaction is done in a solvent. Also, it's acidic, and when you finally basify it there shouldn't be any nitromethane left.

If anyone manages to detonate a diluted solution of nitromethane then better file a patent for it, because you have achieved what many before you tried but nobody was able to make it work.

There won't be an explosion. It's impossible for this mixture to detonate.
I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

[alchemy_bee]

If anyone manages to detonate a diluted solution of nitromethane then better file a patent for it, because you have achieved what many before you tried but nobody was able to make it work.

Theres been much study in the area of detonating 'diluted solutions of nitromethane' has there?  

Well say there is some nitromethane left in the reaction, one proceeds to basify with NaOH and additionaly boils the solution gently to evolve any methylamine gas - so one might assert we have some amount of MeNO2 vapor, gasious MeNH2 and highly flamable alcoholic vapor. Could this sinerio be a convern?

Im sorry if im seem to be beating a dead house, but i recall some fella who did a pressurized wacker in a glass flask and had it blow up in his face (anyone remember that thread!?) and im working from that idea. Just trying to take all precaution possible. thanks all for the input though.

Can a bee be visa vis its entity when half a bee philosophically must ipso facto half not be?

[Rhodium]

If he is still here to tell us, there was no detonation, simply a reaction which erupted violently. I have seen nitromethane-based explosive mixtures amounting to ~25g get through an inch of wood and several millimeters of aluminum.

[hermanroempp]

Well say there is some nitromethane left in the reaction, one proceeds to basify with NaOH and additionaly boils the solution gently to evolve any methylamine gas - so one might assert we have some amount of MeNO2 vapor, gasious MeNH2 and highly flamable alcoholic vapor.

Could lead to explosion, if enough nitromethane was left to form the sodium salt with sodium hydroxide and if the mixture was evaporated to dryness, leaving a residue of the sodium salt of nitromethane, which is very sensitive to shock and friction (dangerous primary explosive). But if enough liquid is left in your reaction flask, the sodium salt will stay dissolved, so there should not be any risk of an explosion.

Quidquid agis, prudenter agas et respice finem!

[Osmium]

> Theres been much study in the area of detonating 'diluted
> solutions of nitromethane' has there?

Yes there has! Nitromethane isn't cheap, and when used as an explosive it's also rather strong. So it WAS tried to make diluted solutions that could be detonated (or wouldn't detonate anymore). E.g. to use MeNO2 as a rocket propellant, minefield clearing explosive, for the testing of shaped charges, seismic explosive, pre-gondola blasting for nuclear tests etc. I could fill a whole page with reasons this kind of research was made many years ago!

And the result was that as soon as you dilute it (like more than 15% or so) it won't detonate anymore.
I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

[alchemy_bee]

Thanks for the input Os, i think ill conclud this thread with a final conclusion that this is a safe procedure, however some consideration would need to be taken - the worse sinerio i can think of is if one where to put the reaction flask on a hot plate to draw off extra MeNH2, and the flask is left unattended.

thanks all for the input.

AB
Can a bee be visa vis its entity when half a bee philosophically must ipso facto half not be?