LSA from Morningglory, Xylene instead of Petr. Et?

[ITP]

Ive looked through the search engine and found no real answers, so Im making a new thread.

At erowid the following instructions are given to extract LSA from MG seeds
"Processing Methodology:
1. If using treated seeds wash thoroughly in detergent and cold water first.

2. Grind seeds to powder in coffee grinder

3. Place powder in jar with a "healthy" qty of petroleum ether.(~360-500 ml/500 seeds (can't use too much, can use too little))

4. Put lid on jar and shake it vigorously for a while. Let stand 20 minutes (you can shake it more if you like)

5. Shake jar, remove lid, and pour suspension into filter (with filter paper in place). Use second jar to catch the petroleum ether than comes through the filter paper. (Windows should be open or do this outside otherwise you will get prematurely in a non-canonical fashion). If some seed powder clings to the side of the jar, rinse it out with some of the filtered ether. When finished, you will have slightly discolored petroleum ether in a jar and the powder on the filter paper.

6. *** DO NOT DRINK THE PETROLEUM ETHER ***. Put the lid on that jar and save it to reuse next time (you can get at least five processing cycles out of it). Dry the seed powder THOROUGHLY. Wash and dry the empty jar.

7. When powder is thoroughly dry, place it back in the jar and add alcohol. The amount of alcohol is critical, since you will be drinking it later, and will vary according to your propensities, tolerances, and the intended intensity of your proposed voyage. For light, recreational use, assuming reasonable alcohol tolerance use 1 oz. of alcohol per 30-50 seeds. For intense meditation use 1 /250 seeds. If you use a high seed/alcohol ratio you will want to prepare a large number of seeds at a time otherwise you will be working with micro-quantities and it gets more tedious (unless you like that sort of thing).

8. Soak the seed powder in the alcohol, shaking frequently, for three days.

9. Filter again, as before. Discard the seed powder (unless you wish to make 'soap'). Keep the alcohol for use.

10. Drink the alcohol to achieve desired effect"

Now, is Xylene an Ok subsitute for Petr. Either in this formula, or is there something that only Petrol products do, that other non-polars wont?

Thanks for all your help
ITP

[elfspice]

unless you need to get a freebase out of the nonpolar. xylene has is about equal in terms of how much water it can hold, compared with naptha. Xylene has a much greater capacity to dissolve things, being a benzene-ring-based solvent. You should be able to use half or less than what it says of petroleum ether.

[Nicodem]

Now, is Xylene an Ok subsitute for Petr. Either in this formula, or is there something that only Petrol products do, that other non-polars wont?

Petrolether (alias naphta) is used to selectively remove lipids from the seeds as other things don't dissolve much in it. So you better stick to it. Why would you prefer using xylene anyway?

[ITP]

Swim has a lot of it, and pure petrol eather is hard to come by in stores

[Nicodem]

"Pure petrol eather" is the most commonly used solvent to dilute paint and clean it from brushes if you just lower your criteria for the word "pure". It is caled "naphta" or "white spirit" and it is sold just in about any store where they sell paints and where I presume you got your xylene as well.

[paranoid]

Both Pet. ether (white gas, etc) and naptha are highly variable composites of HC compounds with varying chain lengths and volatility.  Ergo, grades with significant amounts of long chains tend to evaporate poorly and therefore has a tendency to leave undesirable paraffin residues.  In other words, unless you;ve distilled the fraction you want yourself or have purchased those with a known fractionation of compounds, then they might not be so useful.

SWIM has tried toluene (which has similar properties to xylene) with little success.  It is quite conceivable though that problems with the seeds or the subsequent alcohol extraction may have been responsible for lack of potency.  I suspect though that the toluene absorbed a little more than just the lipids though.

Your best bet?  Acid/Base extraction.  Too much work?  Use a simple cold water extraction like the ancients did and try not to puke.

[ITP]

Ahh so would a simple A/B go like this

Wash seeds and grind
mix with ammonia
add xylene, and shake vigorusly
let settle, decant xylene
mix water and citric acid and pour into the xylene layer
stir well, let settle, and decant xylene
and have LSA in the water?

or would you do the process in reverse?

[paranoid]

Done in reverse - you want to extract into a weak acid solution (in which the alkaloids are highly soluble but the lipids are not), then filter and keep the solution.  You might want to do this three times in total.  Then chuck the remaining plant matter, basify the solution (carefully), and wash with the xylene (again carefully to prevent an emulsion).  Then you could theoretically evaporate and consume, or wash again into a weakly acidic solution.  Wash rinse and repeat, but remember the more you play with it the less the yield.

[fnord]

try hawain baby woodrose its much more logical

[auntyjack]

the wood rose doesn't contain lsa, it's some other lysegic thingo that is similar...also it contains some nasty toxins (cyanide based i think) that will actually kill your ass if you ingest enough of them...yes the toxins are mainly on the outer husk which can be removed but the literature that exists on lyceaum, erowid etc is rather vague on this point...the suggestions on removing toxins seem to be an afterthought and not based on any sound knowledge...just some hippies who found out the husks contain the toxins and are happy to just remove these.....i'm not going to trust the wood rose until someone in a lab does tests on the removal of toxins.....

[paranoid]

No.  Do not start giving out such erroneous information. First of all HBWR seeds contain more or less the same components as morning glory seeds (primarily ergine and hydergine).  They are the ones you want anyway.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/hbw/hbw.shtml

http://www.erowid.org/plants/hbw/hbw_info1.shtml

http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=163

Secondly, the outer husk has a fuzzy coating consisting largely of cyanogenic glycosides, which are toxic, but generally more bothersome than dangerous.  They are not cyanide and are not metabolised into such in the body.  However unless you want to puke (moreso), they should be removed.

[auntyjack]

its not lsa...the post i responded to said it is

cyanogenic glycosides will kill your ass....a guy died from eating an egg cup full of apple seeds which contain the same shit...maybe apple seeds carry alot more of this shit than the wood rose....but still, fuck that!

the info on lycaeum and erowid about the treatment of these seeds is vague...there is no chemical data to support the methods

[fnord]

the amount of toxins in apple seeds is much higher than in morning glory seeds, as far as i know nobody has died from eating morning glory seeds/hbwr

[paranoid]

"its not lsa...the post i responded to said it is "

Oh really?  LSA = LAA (German/English)

LAA = d-lysergic acid amine = ergine

Therefore both morning glory seeds and HBWR contain LSA.

[Theil]

The reason you're friend probably got sick is that the morning glory seeds are often covered with different pesticides and fungicides. Once ingested they can make you pretty sick. It helps to wash them off in a 40% solution of acetic acid.

[metalgirl]

Auntyjack, you wrote:

      "cyanogenic glycosides will kill your ass....a guy died from eating an egg cup full of apple seeds which contain the same shit...maybe apple seeds carry alot more of this shit than the wood rose....but still, fuck that!"
 
an egg cup full of apple seeds is a heck of alot more seeds than the amount of hawian woodrose seeds needed to get off, add to that the fact that apple seeds contain more of the toxin...stop being so paranoid.

Though as an after thought, does this toxin accumulate in the body? (now i'm paranoid!)

[paranoid]

I stand corrected regarding the conversion of cyanogenic glycosides into HCN in vivo.  However, the amounts ar very small, and highly unlikely to present problems.  Here's a bit of info that deals primarily with these compounds in various foods such as Cassava and Almonds, but is completely applicable here.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v30je18.htm

"    The potential toxicity of a cyanogenic plant depends primarily on its capacity to produce a concentration of hydrogen cyanide toxic to animals and humans. The release of hydrogen cyanide can occur either following maceration of the plant material - this activates the intracellular ß-glucosidase which in turn hydrolyses glycoside - or by hydrolysis of glycoside by the ß-glucosidase produced by the
microflora of the gut. The level of ß-glucosidase activity in the gut depends on the pH and the bacterial composition. The cyanogenic glycoside content of a foodstuff, when known, is usually expressed in terms of the amount of cyanide released by acid hydrolysis; exact figures for the concentration of the glycosides themselves are very rarely given.

      Hydrogen cyanide absorbed from the gut can be detoxified by metabolic conversion to thiocyanate; this depends on the presence of nutritional factors, such as sulfur-containing amino acids and vitamin B12. Acute toxicity results when the rate of absorption of hydrogen cyanide is such that the metabolic detoxification capacity
of the body is exceeded.

     If it is assumed that about 100-2000 mg HCN is the lethal dose for man, as much as 10-20 kg of Lafun cassava (10-20 mg cyanide/kg) will have to be consumed at a sitting to produce toxicity (Oke, 1980).

     In Anatolia (Turkey) 9 cases of cyanide intoxication\ of children due to the ingestion of wild apricot seeds (217 mg HCN/100g) were reported. The victims had probably eaten more than 10 seeds. Also in studies of Jeanin  et al. 1961) and Pijoun (1942) poisoning after consuming a relative large amount of peach seeds or bitter almonds are reported. Quantitative figures on cyanogenic glycoside or cyanide intake are not given (Sayre & Kaymakcalavu, 1964).

      On the basis of epidemiological observations, associations have been made between chronic exposure to cyanogenic glycosides and diseases such as spastic paraparesis, tropical ataxic neuopathy, and goitre. However, these observations were confounded by nutritional
deficiencies, and causal relationships have not been definitely established.

    Because of a lack of quantitative toxicological and
epidemiological information, a safe level of intake of cyanogenic glycosides could not be estimated. However, the Committee concluded that a level of up to 10 mg/kg hydrogen cyanide in the Codex Standard for Cassava Flour (CAC, 1991) is not associated with acute toxicity."


I wouldn't worry too much about chronic exposure unless you're eating copious amounts daily.  Just scrape the fuzzy coating off the seeds to minimise exposure as a precautionary measure, and don't give it a second thought.  it might be advisable to consume a single seed at some time to ensure that you do not have a peculiar reaction of sorts (i.e. allergenic or otherwise).