The Vespiary
Site => News => Topic started by: Trivity on July 05, 2023, 01:53:55 PM
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https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/06/16/2023-12893/special-surveillance-list-of-chemicals-products-materials-and-equipment-used-in-the-manufacture-of
Apologies if this is the wrong subforum.
DEA is proposing to update the Special Surveillance List by adding the following laboratory supplies to the existing Special Surveillance List:
Chemicals, including their salts whenever the existence of such salts is possible:
(2-nitroprop-1-en-1-yl)benzene (1-phenyl-2-nitropropene; P2NP)
1-(4-bromophenyl)propan-1-one
1-(4-chlorophenyl)propan-1-one
1-(4-methylphenyl)propan-1-one
1-benzylpiperidin-4-one (
N
-benzyl-4-piperidone)
1-chloro-
N
-methyl-1-phenylpropan-2-amine (chloroephedrine; chloropseudoephedrine)
1-phenylbutan-1-one
1-phenylpentan-1-one
1-phenylpropan-1-one
2-bromo-1-(4-chlorophenyl)propan-1-one
2-bromo-1-(4-methoxyphenyl)propan-1-one
2-bromo-1-(4-methylphenyl)propan-1-one
2-bromo-1-phenylpentan-1-one
2-bromo-1-phenylpropan-1-one
3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylic acid (BMK glycidic acid; P2P glycidic acid) and its esters (
e.g.
methyl 3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylate (BMK methyl glycidate); ethyl 3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylate (BMK ethyl glycidate))
phenethyl bromide ((2-bromoethyl)benzene)
3-oxo-2-phenylbutanoic acid and its esters (
e.g., alpha
-phenylacetoacetic acid; ethyl 3-oxo-2-phenylbutanoate (EAPA))
5-(2-nitroprop-1-en-1-yl)benzodioxole (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-nitropropene; 3,4-MDP2NP)
azobisisobutyronitrile
butane-1,4-diol (1,4-butanediol)
ethyl 3-oxo-4-phenylbutanoate
ethyl-3-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-methyloxirane-2-carboxylate (3,4-MDP-2-P ethyl glycidate)
methyl 2-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-3-oxobutanoate (MAMDPA; MDMAPA)
propionyl chloride
sodium borohydride
sodium triacetoxyborohydride
tert
-butyl 4-((4-fluorophenyl)amino)piperidine-1-carboxylate (
para
-fluoro 1-boc-4-AP)
thioglycolic acid and its esters (
e.g.,
methyl thioglycolate)
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What does the Special Surveillance List actually do?
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Chilling effect towards smaller redistributors and online outlets among other things. It de-facto means the feds are holding any redistributor without a crack legal team liable making sale too much of a risk for all but the biggest.
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Interesting, one of the smaller retailers I use in the states claims it'll have no impact on their ability to supply it.
That said I wonder for how long that will be the case.
I was also tempted to submit a comment as they're accepting them on this issue. There are many very legitimate used of reducing agents so it seems like a throwing the baby out with the bath water kind of situation.
Anyone have any thoughts on what impact it'll have on availability?
Also I thought BDO was controlled in the US. This new register notification seems to say otherwise, does anyone have any clarity with regards to that?
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What does the Special Surveillance List actually do?
It makes sure the cucked DEA keeps receiving taxpayer money to piss down the drain :D
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They're shooting fish in a barrel already
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To begin, I don’t think this will do much in regards to people in the US obtaining any of it. It may effect US distributors primarily. Even then, I don’t quite understand it, if a distributor sells a chemical and that chemical is used by this person (unassociated with the company, only a customer) to synth a substance then the distributor gets fined $250k? That doesn’t make any sense to me. I figure if distributors mind their “P’s and Q’s” being liable for what someone does with their chemical is ridiculous. That’d be like charging acetone distributors if it’s found in a clandestine lab.
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You're not American are you?
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Sad. When the lab is back in action (and explosion proofed) it would be interesting to pursue e.g. DOI 10.1002/aenm.201700299
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To begin, I don’t think this will do much in regards to people in the US obtaining any of it. It may effect US distributors primarily. Even then, I don’t quite understand it, if a distributor sells a chemical and that chemical is used by this person (unassociated with the company, only a customer) to synth a substance then the distributor gets fined $250k? That doesn’t make any sense to me. I figure if distributors mind their “P’s and Q’s” being liable for what someone does with their chemical is ridiculous. That’d be like charging acetone distributors if it’s found in a clandestine lab.
It's not about sense. It's about fear. They can't completely forbid them from operating but they can nudge them into being so paranoid they can pretend to be doing things. :P
And no I think you were thinking GBL. Tempted to post a GABA to GHB route around the net wherever possible just to be petulant now.
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Huh, this really does just encourage bees to go even more DIY. They will never curtail the flow of these chemicals, as suppliers in China, India and others abroad will simply change labels and go about as nothing happened and no one is the wiser.
Indeed, just a way for the DEA to stay relevant.
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thioglycolic acid and its esters eg. Methyl thioglycolate
Does anyone have any info regarding how thioglycolid esters are used in clandestine labs? I've never heard of their use before. Some brief research tells me they are used as reducing agents -given their inexpensive and accessibility, it seems to me it would be an attractive substance to use (despite its smell).
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thioglycolic acid and its esters eg. Methyl thioglycolate
Does anyone have any info regarding how thioglycolid esters are used in clandestine labs? I've never heard of their use before. Some brief research tells me they are used as reducing agents -given their inexpensive and accessibility, it seems to me it would be an attractive substance to use (despite its smell).
It's used in methamphetamine resolution with AIBN.
https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/eu-drug-markets/methamphetamine/main-production-methods-europe_en
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So if sodium borohydride, sodium cyanoborohydride, and sodium triacetoxyborohydride All become to difficult to obtain, what then would you all agree would be a good alternative reducing agent. Besides LAH of course? Any thoughts? Opinions? :)
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Titanium isopropxide, libh4, borane in thf or any borane complex really, red-al, sodium on silica, all variations of mercury amalgam. Not sure I understand the fuss about nabh4 being watched, the time spent figuring out how to get or make nabh4 could be better spent figuring out how to reduce without it
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Not sure I understand the fuss about nabh4 being watched, the time spent figuring out how to get or make nabh4 could be better spent figuring out how to reduce without it
There was this chinese patent, the NaBH4 was made from Mg metal and some borax sodium carbonate, water in a ball mill: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=158235
One would have to make a tightly sealed ball mill, that could bee filled with argon though and afterwards wind a way to recrystallise the NaBH4 without hydrolysis. Quite a bit of a hassle and specialised equipment.
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Titanium isopropxide, libh4, borane in thf or any borane complex really, red-al, sodium on silica, all variations of mercury amalgam. Not sure I understand the fuss about nabh4 being watched, the time spent figuring out how to get or make nabh4 could be better spent figuring out how to reduce without it
NaBH4 is generations Z red phosphorus.
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I actually threw out 20 something grams of red phosphorous the other day, not enough to make any meaningful amount of anything. And still have a buttload of nabh4 from china
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I actually threw out 20 something grams of red phosphorous the other day, not enough to make any meaningful amount of anything. And still have a buttload of nabh4 from china
You lie! Say it isn't so! You could make a ton of PCl5 with 20 grams of Red P. Simply make some modifications to your chlorine generator to generate SO2 instead, direct the dry gas straight into your PCl5-caked flask, and boom. You made thionyl chloride (and phosphoryl chloride I think).
Hateful stuff, but very very useful.
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I've been debating turning my pcl5 into thionyl chloride to avoid producing pocl3 when I need things chlorinated. The only reason I have to keep pcl5 is for vilsmeier which I haven't done in months
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I've been debating turning my pcl5 into thionyl chloride to avoid producing pocl3 when I need things chlorinated. The only reason I have to keep pcl5 is for vilsmeier which I haven't done in months
Personally, I would recommend keeping it as PCl5 and only synthesizing SOCl2 when you know you'll need it sometime in the next reasonable amount of time. It's a bit of a pain to purify the SOCl2 POCl3 mixture to perfection, but having SOCl2 handy when the time comes to use it is really nice. It is subject to photolysis and slowly degrades and is all around nasty stuff so I, too, prefer keeping PCl5 in storage than thionyl chloride.
The synthesis is very visually appealing though. Colorless gas + colorless solid -> colorless liquid. Very cool to see.
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Not sure I understand the fuss about nabh4 being watched, the time spent figuring out how to get or make nabh4 could be better spent figuring out how to reduce without it
There was this chinese patent, the NaBH4 was made from Mg metal and some borax sodium carbonate, water in a ball mill: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=158235
One would have to make a tightly sealed ball mill, that could bee filled with argon though and afterwards wind a way to recrystallise the NaBH4 without hydrolysis. Quite a bit of a hassle and specialised equipment.
Honestly kind of overcomplicated when you can just buy the best precursor to borohydride and react it with alkali hydroxides
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Honestly kind of overcomplicated when you can just buy the best precursor to borohydride and react it with alkali hydroxides
What's the precursor?
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Honestly kind of overcomplicated when you can just buy the best precursor to borohydride and react it with alkali hydroxides
What's the precursor?
I'd be interested to know as well, because I was under the impression the easiest for the amateur would be sodium hydride and trimethyl borate. I was thinking borane and sodium hydroxide, but I am fairly sure that would produce sodium metal.
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Honestly kind of overcomplicated when you can just buy the best precursor to borohydride and react it with alkali hydroxides
What's the precursor?
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And why isn't this method used or talked about more? I see no cheap magnesium diboride or easy way to make it
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I read that the yields are very low like 10%, and isolating the pure borohydride without decomposition would be tricky.
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There’s no guarantee that this is what atara was talking about, but it was all One could find.
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Yeah I was talking about the MgB2 method. The yield is about 10% of the boron but considering the electronics that's around 40% of theory. So not awful. The nice thing about MgB2 is that it's basically completely stable and easy to store which helps make up for the huge excess.
I suspect you could get a better yield if you used a mixture of MgB2 and metallic Mg. That would improve the theoretical yield substantially.
The balanced equations:
2 MgB2 + 4 NaOH >> NaBH4 + 2 MgO + NaBO2 + 2B
2 MgB2 + 8 NaOH + Mg >> 2 NaBH4 + 4 MgO + 2 NaBO2
Using KOH instead might also increase the yield but the product KBH4 is less reactive and less soluble. No idea if it would still work for the CuCl2 bit.
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You're not American are you?
They'll fuck whoever they can as much as they can. It's a fucking racket: cops, lawyers, judges and prison industrial complex. Fucking sucks