Author Topic: Can this be synthesized?  (Read 5144 times)

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dombo

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Can this be synthesized?
« on: February 12, 2003, 05:19:00 PM »
Does anyone have information (if any ) on the synthesis (or atleast extraction from their parent plants) of atropine, scopolamine, or hyosine? Also which is the more potent of the three?


epistemologicide

  • Guest
yes UTFSE
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2003, 06:53:00 PM »
yes

UTFSE


pHarmacist

  • Guest
More potent?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2003, 04:01:00 AM »
You mean more potent as poision or what?


sean1234

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Post 378194 easy to find: UTFSE.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2003, 12:51:00 PM »

Post 378194

(cHiLLy: "Scopolamine Ext. :Datura Innoxia", Chemistry Discourse)
easy to find: UTFSE. although why youd want to do this is beyond me.


a_mean_bee

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yikes
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2003, 02:14:00 PM »

although why youd want to do this is beyond me.




no shit. I had experience, in my youth, with both datura extractives, and compounded pharmaceuticals containing hyoscine. There's no merit in either. Makes for a good yarn when you're sitting around the campfire with the other dopers though. Genuinely hallucinatory.


apy

  • Guest
Re: Genuinely hallucinatory.
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2003, 09:19:00 PM »


Genuinely hallucinatory.




More like scarily hallucinatory.  Last thing I'd want to be anywheres near is a camp fire when on atropine.


carboxyl

  • Guest
If you had typed in "atropine" in...
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2003, 11:22:00 PM »
If you had typed in "atropine" in TFSE over at Rhodium's, you would have been directed to the Alkaloid Extraction Document by Osmium.

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/alkastract.html



Many alkaloids can be isolated directly from the alkoholic extract by chromatographic methods. This is a separation which works well for tropane alkaloids (atropine, cocaine, scopolamine).

Also, from King's American Dispensatory. by Harvey Felter, and John Lloyd:

An easy process for the preparation of Atropine is as follows: One pound of the dry leaves of belladonna are to be boiled in distilled water sufficient to cover them for 2 hours, and the decoction strained off through a coarse cloth into a large precipitating jar. The leaves are again boiled in a second water and the decoctions mixed, to which 2 drachms of strong sulphuric acid are now added; the vegetable albumen is precipitated, and the clear liquor is drawn off with a siphon to a filter. A clear, sherry-colored solution comes through, which is either decomposed by passing gaseous ammonia through it, or by adding commercial carbonate of ammonium. In either case the color becomes changed to black, and crystals of atropine are slowly formed. At the expiration of a day or so the supernatant liquor may be drawn off with a siphon, and the crystals
thrown on a filter to dry. To decolorize them, about 1 ounce of spirit of ammonia may be poured on the filter, which washes away most of the coloring matter, leaving the crystals moderately white. Purify by dissolving in boiling alcohol and recrystallizing.

You should also find this PDF helpful:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NationalList/


TAPReviews/Atropine.pdf

Basic Overview: Long preparation of tropinone; preparation of tropic acid; combination of tropinone and tropic acid yielding atropine. The process they suggest for preparing tropinone is exhaustive.

“ Although the individual steps in the synthesis generally give good to excellent yields, there are many of them which means that the overall yield becomes diminishingly small, of the order of 1%.”

It would be a lot easier for you to prepare tropinone as detailed in

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/cocaine.synthesis.txt



“Take the total amount of succinaldehyde (obtained from 4
of the above syntheses combined) and without further treatment or purification (this had better be 15.5 g of succindialdehyde) put into an Erlenmeyer flask of 4-5 liters capacity. Add 21.6 g of methylamine hydrochloride, 46.7 g of acetonedicarboxylic acid, and enough water to make a total volume of 2 liters. Adjust the pH to 8-10 by slowly adding a saturated solution of disodium phosphate. The condensate of this reaction (allow to set for about 6 days) is extracted with ether, the ethereal solution is dried over sodium sulphate and distilled, the product coming over at 113 C at 25 mm of pressure is collected. Upon cooling, 14 g of tropinone crystallizes in the pure state.”

(See document for preparation of succinaldehyde via succinaldoxime)

One would then produce tropic acid from phenylacetic acid by means of a Grignard and formaldehyde.

Then heat the tropic acid with the tropinone in the presence of about 3% HCl (Fischer-Speier Esterification) to obtain atropine. Why one would go through all of that just for some atropine, I’ll never know; but that’s how you make it.


a_mean_bee

  • Guest
Re: More like scarily hallucinatory.
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2003, 09:36:00 AM »

More like scarily hallucinatory.  Last thing I'd want to be anywheres near is a camp fire when on atropine.




No, of course not. And as you say 'scarily hallucinatory' (datura). That was what struck me about the experience; the disturbing quality of the trip. It wasn't pleasant. Set/Setting might have been a factor, but I don't think that was the root of it. Hallucinatory a la Heironymous Bosch. The physical symptoms are a huge strike against it.
That was with the extractions. We didn't repeat it. Then again different strokes for different folks. Maybe with the right Yaqui Indian around for coaching, and later babysitting, you could cultivate a relationship with your own personal power daemon.


thallium

  • Guest
Atropine vs. hyoscyamine and scopolamine
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2003, 11:07:00 AM »
I've tried both atropine (from Atropa belladonna-berries w. sugar, tastes pretty nice!) and hyoscyamine/scopolamine (Brugmannsia sanguinea-leaves).

The hyoscyamine/scopolamine trip was much "better" than the pure atropine trip (which fucked me up totally), so I would advise you not to try atropine. (...and make sure you have a baby-sitter:)